Order of the... Lantern?

[Crisis21]

Just an interesting thought that would not leave me alone.

I think most of us are aware of DC's Blackest Night/Brightest Day events with the multi-colored lanterns. What I'm doing is a small project of who would be recruited to the various Lantern Corps among the OotS universe.

Without further ado, here are my votes for the main cast.

:redcloak: "Redcloak of the goblins, you have great rage in your heart. You belong to the Red Lantern Corps."
:vaarsuvius: "Vaarsuvius of the elves, you want it all. You have been recruited as an Agent of the Orange."
:belkar: "Belkar Bitterleaf of the halflings, you have the ability to instill great fear. Welcome to the Sinestro Corps."
:roy: Roy Greenhilt of the humans, you have the ability to overcome great fear. Welcome to the Green Lantern Corps."
:elan: "Elan the Bard, you have the ability to instill great hope. Welcome to the Blue Lantern Corps."
:durkon: "Durkon Thundershield of the dwarves, you have the ability to feel great compassion. Welcome to the Indigo Tribe."
:haley: "Haley Starshine, you have great love in your heart. Welcome to the Star Sapphires."
:xykon: "Xykon the sorceror. Rise."
"Eric Greenhilt. Live."

Before anyone cries foul over the distribution of Haley and V, consider that all Star Sapphires are female and we don't know V's gender. V is having relationship issues stemming from V's own neglect while Haley is completely devoted to Elan. Also Haley's greed has yet to put her in a position of making a deal with fiends while V's has.

As far as Elan and Durkon's placement goes, this puts Elan in a position of being dependent on Roy to do anything (Blue Lantern Rings need a Green Lantern to operate to the fullest of their abilities) which is par for the course. :smallbiggrin:



If anyone wants to post their thoughts on this silly exercise, please do so. Feel free to use any character so far introduced in the comic, just post the appropriate color text for them. The ones shown above are what happens when typing in COLOR="(Red/Orange/Yellow/Green/Blue/Indigo/Violet/Black/White")

[Maxios]

Perhaps Celia would be a Star Saphire or a White Lantern.
Miko hmmm...that's a tough one. She'd have to be a red lantern for sure.

[Zevox]

I posted my thoughts on this in the Lantern Corps thread from the Media Discussions section, but here they are again, slightly modified:

:roy: - Green. The kind of willpower you need to put up with what he does...
:durkon: - Maybe white? Doesn't seem to fit any of the others, but I'm not familiar with what the white corps are like.
:elan: - Blue, pretty easily.
:haley: - Orange or none.
:belkar: - Could fit in any of the three "negative" emotions, but probably best for red. Will qualify for black sometime in the future, too.
:vaarsuvius: - None. During the events of Don't Split the Party she may qualify for Orange, but otherwise, none fit.
:xykon: - Yellow or orange, easy. Probably yellow. He's already undead, so he actually can't qualify for black.
:redcloak: - None, I'd say.
:miko: - Yellow, if any. I thought about orange, but self-centered as her worldview was, it wasn't quite in a manner that qualifies as "greedy" or "avaricious," but more of a conceit about her own importance. Though being dead, she could also qualify for black.
:nale: - Orange. "No one denies me!"
:sabine: - None, since I don't think the Star Sapphires cover lust and illicit sex in their "love"-based powers.
:thog: - None. Besides, he wouldn't understand them even if one was offered to him anyway.

I'd definitely disagree with the OP about Redcloak. Rage has never been a defining trait for him. Oh, he wants/wanted his revenge on the Paladins, but he never displayed the sort of overpowering anger that causes a red ring to select someone as a Red Lantern.


consider that all Star Sapphires are female
If memory serves, Geoff Johns has said that this isn't because they have to be, but because males who could qualify for the Star Saphhires are rare.

Zevox

[KingFlameHawk]

I think most of them are appropriate though I would make a few changes.
I think Elan and Durkon should switch as I see the Cleric class being more of the installing hope in others and Elan is more of the compassion to everyone type. Also I think Belkar is more of a red lanturn as the yellow lanturn is more about forcing "peace and order" in the universe and that is not Belkars thing, and don't forget he is a Barbarian so a good part of his power already comes from rage. On that note I think Redcloak might fit the yellow lanturn better. V as a orange lanturn defiantly fits the old V but not so much the new V personally I think Nale should be the orange lanturn as it fits his character and since it is opposite what I think Elan is it fits to signify that they are opposites.

[Zevox]

I think Elan and Durkon should switch as I see the Cleric class being more of the installing hope in others and Elan is more of the compassion to everyone type.
Some Clerics may be like that, but Durkon doesn't seem to be, if you ask me. He's just sort of there - he's loyal and willing to help, but you don't really see him trying to inspire others or the like. As for Elan, I initially thought so too, but in the thread I linked earlier, SPoD made a persuasive argument otherwise (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165043&page=4):


Compassion, in the Indigo Lantern way of looking at it, is truly understanding another. Elan doesn't do that. Elan just assumes the best because he doesn't really process information properly. It's not compassion for others as much as it is lack of understanding. If anything, he has LESS understanding of other people because he tends to see them as broad story clichés until proven otherwise. In other words, he doesn't "sympathize" with Tarquin, he is just oblivious, i.e. he hopes that he's Good rather than having compassion for the things that may have driven him to Evil.

Consider the Blue Lantern motto: "All will be well." That sounds like something Elan would say. It's a generalization of optimism, and Elan is made out of optimism.


Also I think Belkar is more of a red lanturn as the yellow lanturn is more about forcing "peace and order" in the universe and that is not Belkars thing, and don't forget he is a Barbarian so a good part of his power already comes from rage. On that note I think Redcloak might fit the yellow lanturn better.
While I agree that red is probably the best fit for Belkar, remember that the imposed order thing is only the use Sinestro tries to put the yellow light to, not necessarily the only use for it. It seeks out those able to instill great fear, period, and Belkar does qualify in that regard, even if he'd be unlikely to go along with Sinestro's ideas. Heck, a yellow ring once chose Batman, and he'd be much less likely to work with Sinestro than Belkar.

Zevox

[SPoD]

It seems like my argument has preceded me.

I would also swap Haley for Orange and V for Red. Haley as Orange is so self-explanatory that I won't waste any more words on it. V for Red seems appropriate because of how V reacts when his/her family is threatened: Destroy the perpetrator and everyone who has ever been related to them. That does leave us without a Violet Lantern in the Order, but I think Therkla would have been a good candidate.

And as far as a Black Lantern, Xykon would be a waste. The point of the Black Lanterns was to provoke emotional reactions in the living for Necron to feed on. Xykon doesn't really provoke that kind of reaction. What you're looking for is:

:miko: Miko Miyazaki. Rise.

[Crisis21]

If memory serves, Geoff Johns has said that this isn't because they have to be, but because males who could qualify for the Star Saphhires are rare.


That I hadn't heard. Thanks for correcting me on that front. The rest of my argument stands though.

And, yes, I do agree that if anyone is going to be receiving an Orange ring out of the entire OotS cast, it will be Nale. As far as Redcloak being a Red Lantern, pretty much everything he's done is motivated by revenge against the humans. My big question is: who would be 'Black Hand', Xykon, or Tsukiko?

As for Durkon as an Indigo lantern, he seems to understand other people really well. The guy may be 'awfully lawful', but he's very clear on what motivates other people. He's talked Haley into allowing herself to be arrested by Miko for one and he just about lied to a paladin to her face later on (I count, 'able ta be picked by a rogue,' as a pretty major defect, aye? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html)).

As far as Belkar and Rage go, he's rarely let his rage control him. He's much more interested in making people scream for mercy. His actions with the eye of fear and flame pretty much cemented my selection of him for a yellow ring.

[Zevox]

As far as Redcloak being a Red Lantern, pretty much everything he's done is motivated by revenge against the humans.
Er, no it isn't. He hates humans because of what the Sapphire Guard did to his home, but that's only one of his motivations, and it's not the strongest of them. His greatest motivation has been to improve the lot of Goblins as a species. Revenge against humans is there too, but if that's all he wanted, he'd be done now that Azure City is conquered, its populace enslaved, and the Sapphire Guard all but obliterated. What he really wants most is to make sure that nothing like what happened to his village can happen again - hence why he continues to pursue The Plan, so that the Dark One can make sure the Gods give Goblins a fair shake in the future.


As for Durkon as an Indigo lantern, he seems to understand other people really well. The guy may be 'awfully lawful', but he's very clear on what motivates other people. He's talked Haley into allowing herself to be arrested by Miko for one and he just about lied to a paladin to her face later on (I count, 'able ta be picked by a rogue,' as a pretty major defect, aye? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html)).
I don't buy it. Understanding Haley's greed and being able to come up with a way to deceive a Paladin predisposed to trusting you are not difficult things in any way (I'm not even sure why you think the latter constitutes an argument for this). Nothing I've seen Durkon do has given me the impression he'd fit as a candidate for the indigo light.


As far as Belkar and Rage go, he's rarely let his rage control him.
True, but it only needs to happen once for a red ring to choose you, and he does get pissed pretty easily. Remember his slaver "friend?" Or during the battle of Azure City, when he briefly shouted about killing Hinjo because his shoulder-devil mentioned that Hinjo got a cooler dog than him? It doesn't take all that much to set Belkar off. I'd say he could certainly qualify for yellow as well, and perhaps also orange, but red would likely be his best fit overall.

Zevox

[Cerlis]

Durkon may be awfully lawful, but keep in mind that he just tries to instill his values in others, and doesn't budge easily when someone tries to force him to move. From what i see with all his conversations with Haley, Roy, V, Roy's sister he seems to understand people....its just that in some cases he views they should change (as per Nale's opinion that the OotS should die), but in cases where a person's different moral value isnt harmful to other's (Like Haley's love of money, since she takes a Thief route to get it rather than an assassins). He might in this example Oppose Haley if her greed puts her or others in danger, or if her distrust puts the party in jeapordy, but otherwise he'd accept it.


From the sounds of it Indigo would fit, just cus you understand someone doesnt mean you have to approve of their actions. But i dont know. I saw some signage of different Lantern colors just the other day, and now i see this. If i Wikipedia Green Lantern will i find stuff about all these other things i've never heard of?

[Cerlis]

True, but it only needs to happen once for a red ring to choose you, and he does get pissed pretty easily. Remember his slaver "friend?" Or during the battle of Azure City, when he briefly shouted about killing Hinjo because his shoulder-devil mentioned that Hinjo got a cooler dog than him? It doesn't take all that much to set Belkar off. I'd say he could certainly qualify for yellow as well, and perhaps also orange, but red would likely be his best fit overall.

I'd say thats more from a lack of a "Its not ok to kill people just cus you dont like them" moral code. Belkar doesnt kill people unless he has a reason. It just happens that with him "He took my soda" and "He tried to kill me" are about on par with each other (though actually i think Belkar would be more offended by the soda thing)

[Zevox]

From the sounds of it Indigo would fit, just cus you understand someone
But that's the thing - Durkon doesn't seem to have any special understanding of others beyond what anyone with a halfway decent IQ would have.


I'd say thats more from a lack of a "Its not ok to kill people just cus you dont like them" moral code. Belkar doesnt kill people unless he has a reason. It just happens that with him "He took my soda" and "He tried to kill me" are about on par with each other (though actually i think Belkar would be more offended by the soda thing)
Er, no, Belkar doesn't even need a reason to kill people. Remember the Gnome he killed on the way to the Oracle with Haley and Celia? Or his reactions to the idea that others might want to not kill anyone in On the Origin of PCs?

And in any event, what does any of that have to do with what I said in the post you quoted anyway? It doesn't seem to make an argument one way or the other about whether he fits with the red ring.

Zevox

[Crisis21]

Er, no it isn't. He hates humans because of what the Sapphire Guard did to his home, but that's only one of his motivations, and it's not the strongest of them. His greatest motivation has been to improve the lot of Goblins as a species. Revenge against humans is there too, but if that's all he wanted, he'd be done now that Azure City is conquered, its populace enslaved, and the Sapphire Guard all but obliterated. What he really wants most is to make sure that nothing like what happened to his village can happen again - hence why he continues to pursue The Plan, so that the Dark One can make sure the Gods give Goblins a fair shake in the future.

True, but it only needs to happen once for a red ring to choose you, and he does get pissed pretty easily. Remember his slaver "friend?" Or during the battle of Azure City, when he briefly shouted about killing Hinjo because his shoulder-devil mentioned that Hinjo got a cooler dog than him? It doesn't take all that much to set Belkar off. I'd say he could certainly qualify for yellow as well, and perhaps also orange, but red would likely be his best fit overall.

Okay, I'll give on Redcloak's motivations. He does have more than just his grudge pushing him forward. However, your argument for Belkar and a red ring could just as easily apply to Redcloak, more so in some ways.

I'll admit, Durkon as an Indigo Lantern is shaky, but I had no other candidate among the Order who was even close to fitting. To be honest, among the whole cast, I'd probably pick Shojo. There was someone who had a great deal of compassion and well understood the motives of others. I do agree with Cerlis's position that understanding a person's motivations does not in any way imply approval of their actions.

As far as Haley and an Orange ring go, I don't see it. I could have in the early strips, but Avarice is a very selfish motivator (and in my opinion the Orange Light encompasses all Seven Sins, but that's a separate argument) and Haley often does very selfless actions. Gathering money to buy her father's freedom and the Azure City resistance to name two. Whereas her love for Elan has become a much bigger motivator than her own material greed in recent strips. Although, I have some very funny mental images of an Orange and a Violet ring fighting over Haley's recruitment.



And as far as a Black Lantern, Xykon would be a waste. The point of the Black Lanterns was to provoke emotional reactions in the living for Necron to feed on. Xykon doesn't really provoke that kind of reaction. What you're looking for is:

:miko: Miko Miyazaki. Rise.

Not among the forums he doesn't, but among the OotS world, few invoke strong emotional reactions in as many people as Xykon now does.

The entire Order, the survivors of Azure City and the Sapphire Guard, Tsukiko, Redcloak, who knows how many goblins, the list goes on. In the DC comics, many Black Lanterns were made who would invoke strong emotions in just a single person, sometimes multiple lanterns for one individual. Xykon's potential emotional influence among so many people would not be ignored by the Black.

As far as being undead disqualifying Xykon from a Black ring, I don't see it. If anything, I'd think that would make him a better candidate.

That said, I see no reason why Miko wouldn't also be a Black Lantern.

[Zevox]

Okay, I'll give on Redcloak's motivations. He does have more than just his grudge pushing him forward. However, your argument for Belkar and a red ring could just as easily apply to Redcloak, more so in some ways.
I don't see how. Redcloak doesn't get set off anywhere near as easily as Belkar. Off the top of my head, the only instance of him losing his cool I can think of is when he confronted Miko. He is, if anything, Belkar's opposite in this regard, always trying to be cool and collected, and always reasoning out - or at least rationalizing - what he does.


I'll admit, Durkon as an Indigo Lantern is shaky, but I had no other candidate among the Order who was even close to fitting.
...and you need one why? Why try to force characters into a category they don't fit in? It's not like you need to find at least one character for each light in the comic. These rings are supposed to only select individuals who are quite exceptional in their particular areas, after all, even if some (like the red rings) are less discerning than others, so it shouldn't be surprising if any given work of fiction does not have any characters that would fit into some of the corps.


To be honest, among the whole cast, I'd probably pick Shojo. There was someone who had a great deal of compassion and well understood the motives of others.
Certainly a better candidate I'd say, though I think he'd still perhaps fall short.


As far as Haley and an Orange ring go, I don't see it. I could have in the early strips, but Avarice is a very selfish motivator (and in my opinion the Orange Light encompasses all Seven Sins, but that's a separate argument) and Haley often does very selfless actions. Gathering money to buy her father's freedom and the Azure City resistance to name two. Whereas her love for Elan has become a much bigger motivator than her own material greed in recent strips. Although, I have some very funny mental images of an Orange and a Violet ring fighting over Haley's recruitment.
I might remind you that she intends to charge her father 10% of all his future income for saving him. But yes, she has developed so that she is less selfish and materialistic than she was at first. Nonetheless, I'd still peg her as a better fit for orange than violet personally.


As far as being undead disqualifying Xykon from a Black ring, I don't see it. If anything, I'd think that would make him a better candidate.
Nope. You have to be dead to be possessed by a black ring. Xykon is not dead, therefore he can't become a black lantern.

Zevox

[KingFlameHawk]

Another reason I think Belkar would fit the red lanturn is that I really think Belkar himself would rather be one. If he had to choose between being the lap dog of sinestro or to be able to puke flaming blood at people and to be nigh invincable he would choose the latter. Also Mr. Scruffy could be the OotS version of Dex-Star as well. A real one-two punch.

[kpenguin]

Nope. You have to be dead to be possessed by a black ring. Xykon is not dead, therefore he can't become a black lantern.

Xykon is undead, the same as Deadman and Solomon Grundy who both became Black Lanterns.

Roy is also up for Black Lantern candidacy, given that he died and came back.

[Querzis]

Nah I definitly gotta agree on Haley being a violet a lot more then an orange. She can be totally selfless if she wants to and she really doesnt want everything. She doesnt want power, she doesnt want slaves, she doesnt want an empire, she just want money and wanting only one thing really isnt enough for an orange. Beside, she wants money because she was raised by a thief in the city of thieves. But even with money she can be totally selfless sometimes if she think its necessary. Haley is most definitly motivated by love more then anything else. Her love for Elan, her love for her father, her love for her teamates. When she lost her voice and we saw her thought in great details, it wasnt the loss of money that troubled her.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html

Shes afraid her loved ones will leave her like some of them already did. Nale is the orange in the comic, now thats a guy who wants everything. But Haley is a violet a thousand times more then she will ever be an orange. An orange will not work for free just because she think the love between the two dirt farmers is adorable.


Nope. You have to be dead to be possessed by a black ring. Xykon is not dead, therefore he can't become a black lantern.

Except that yes, he is dead. The fact thats hes moving and talking doesnt make him any less dead, thats the point of being an undead. Did you already forgot that Grundy, an undead, was actually chosen to become a black lantern at some point?

Edit: Ninja'd

[Zevox]

Except that yes, he is dead. The fact thats hes moving and talking doesnt make him any less dead, thats the point of being an undead.
Er, no, the whole point of being undead is that you are not dead. You are neither alive nor dead, but in a state in between.


Did you already forgot that Grundy, an undead, was actually chosen to become a black lantern at some point?
Can't forget what you don't know to begin with. I haven't read Blackest Night yet, so what I know of the black corps comes from Wikipedia, and the parts I read there didn't mention Grundy becoming a black lantern (nor was I aware Grundy was undead, since I'm only barely familiar with him from some of the Justice League cartoons).

Zevox

[Crisis21]

Can't forget what you don't know to begin with. I haven't read Blackest Night yet, so what I know of the black corps comes from Wikipedia, and the parts I read there didn't mention Grundy becoming a black lantern (nor was I aware Grundy was undead, since I'm only barely familiar with him from some of the Justice League cartoons).

For the longest time, I wasn't aware Solomon Grundy was undead either, he was just another villain to me. Also, I have read parts of Blackest Night and I wasn't aware that he became a Black Lantern either.

The Black Lanterns themselves are undead, so I really see no problem with someone who's already undead being recruited.

Which now brings up an interesting issue. What would the DC be for using Turn Undead on a Black Lantern?


As far as choosing Durkon as an Indigo, I wanted a full set for my original post. Not the most solid reasoning in the world, I'll freely admit, but there it is nonetheless. Durkon would probably be a character who wouldn't end up with a ring at all to be honest.

[Querzis]

Er, no, the whole point of being undead is that you are not dead. You are neither alive nor dead, but in a state in between.

No, the point of being undead is that you are a dead body (or in some case, a dead soul) that is animated by dark energy. You're still dead. You want something that is between life and death, go check out the revenants in 4th edition. An undead is 100% dead, its not because its able to kill you that it make it any less dead.


Can't forget what you don't know to begin with. I haven't read Blackest Night yet, so what I know of the black corps comes from Wikipedia, and the parts I read there didn't mention Grundy becoming a black lantern (nor was I aware Grundy was undead, since I'm only barely familiar with him from some of the Justice League cartoons).

They make it quite clear that hes undead in the Justice League cartoon too, hes a zombie reanimated by voodoo magic, they spent two episodes on him...Anyway, it doesnt matter if you were not aware of it, the point is that some undeads have become Black Lantern already in the comics. Xykon is an absolutely perfect fit for the Black Lantern corps.

[Deliverance]

I think most of us are aware of DC's Blackest Night/Brightest Day events with the multi-colored lanterns.

I think you are wrong. :smalltongue:

I thought you might be referring to some yearly Washington DC event with an idiotic name, as that's the sort of prejudice I have about US naming of events; Fluffy, good for a one-liner, and overblown. :smallbiggrin:

Googling showed that you were talking about DC Comics - and while it is certainly possible that the majority of US readers of OOTS know what DC Comics are up to, it is a near certainty that it is only the case for a minotiry of those of us from the rest of the world. :smallsmile:


For others who are as clueless about what you are talking about as I was, here are two wikipedia links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackest_Night
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brightest_Day


Does this seem overly pedantic? Perhaps it is so, and regardless I hope you all have fun with your lantern game, but if nothing else you can rejoice in being reminded that the OOTS has an international readership. ::smallcool:

[Maxios]

:o-chul: for Indigo, Blue Lanterns, or Green Lanterns! :smallbiggrin:

[Crisis21]

:o-chul: for Indigo, Blue Lanterns, or Green Lanterns! :smallbiggrin:

O-Chul would make a dang fine Indigo. For one thing, he's already got the dress code down. :smallbiggrin:

[Cerlis]

But that's the thing - Durkon doesn't seem to have any special understanding of others beyond what anyone with a halfway decent IQ would have.


Er, no, Belkar doesn't even need a reason to kill people. Remember the Gnome he killed on the way to the Oracle with Haley and Celia? Or his reactions to the idea that others might want to not kill anyone in On the Origin of PCs?

And in any event, what does any of that have to do with what I said in the post you quoted anyway? It doesn't seem to make an argument one way or the other about whether he fits with the red ring.

Zevox

well i dont know the correct language to use. Belkar does need a reason to kill..or else everyone in the comic would be either dead, up to the point where he met someone that would kill him. Even homocidal maniacs dont kill people for no reason. Belkar killed the Gnome cus he wanted the donkey and cus he hasnt killed anyone in a while, he killed the kobald cus the kobald tried to kill him. And from the other side of the perspective he didnt kill Vaarsuvius in his sleep even though V is probably the single person to piss him off the most. Belkar doesnt kill needlessly. He kills when he's bored, cus it would be cool, cus its a simple solution to a problem. He doesnt kill cus he's an angry person he kills cus he sees it as his prefered option to solving a problem. He has perfectly and reasonable reasons for killing everyone he kills, its not his fault most everyone disagrees with his morality (or lack there of)

and under this idea, my post replies to yours cus it shows that the fact that belkar's wanting to kill Hinjo, or killing the slaver has nothing to do with his ragefactor. He gets no more pissed than your average thug, problem is instead of punching someone out, he stabs them.

Maybe your right, i dont know how mad you have to get to earn the red ring, but he doesnt seem to get pissed much more than other people. I mean take Haley, if you stole her money as much as people screwed up Belkar's egocentric world (which is why he gets pissed and kills) then she'd just be as angry a character as he

[Zevox]

well i dont know the correct language to use. Belkar does need a reason to kill..or else everyone in the comic would be either dead, up to the point where he met someone that would kill him.
Not needing a reason to kill doesn't mean he kills everyone he meets indiscriminately.


Belkar killed the Gnome cus he wanted the donkey
He didn't care about the donkey, that was a rationalization he gave Haley after-the-fact to attempt to placate her.


Belkar doesnt kill needlessly.
Then I suppose that Gnome needed killing? Or the Oracle? Or the guard back in Azure City? Or Elan, when Belkar tried to kill him for XP?


He kills when he's bored, cus it would be cool, cus its a simple solution to a problem.
...which are pretty much the definition of not needing a reason to kill. "I'm bored" and "it would be cool" aren't reasons to kill someone, they're motivations for homocidal sociopaths.


He has perfectly and reasonable reasons for killing everyone he kills
Your definition of "reasonable" must be entirely too broad if you're able to type that statement without cracking up in laughter.


and under this idea, my post replies to yours cus it shows that the fact that belkar's wanting to kill Hinjo, or killing the slaver has nothing to do with his ragefactor. He gets no more pissed than your average thug, problem is instead of punching someone out, he stabs them.
...an average thug would get angry enough to kill at the thought that someone else has a cool dog and he doesn't :smallconfused: ? What the heck type of person do you think constitutes an average thug?

Zevox

[Cerlis]

Not needing a reason to kill doesn't mean he kills everyone he meets indiscriminately.


He didn't care about the donkey, that was a rationalization he gave Haley after-the-fact to attempt to placate her.


Then I suppose that Gnome needed killing? Or the Oracle? Or the guard back in Azure City? Or Elan, when Belkar tried to kill him for XP?


...which are pretty much the definition of not needing a reason to kill. "I'm bored" and "it would be cool" aren't reasons to kill someone, they're motivations for homocidal sociopaths.


Your definition of "reasonable" must be entirely too broad if you're able to type that statement without cracking up in laughter.


...an average thug would get angry enough to kill at the thought that someone else has a cool dog and he doesn't :smallconfused: ? What the heck type of person do you think constitutes an average thug?

Zevox

When you go to college, take sociology class. You'll learn not everyone has the same value system as you. What you mean to say is not "Belkar doesnt have a reason to kill" but rather "Belkar doesnt have a good reason to kill based off my belief system and the belief system of mainstream society"

Belkar had a reason to kill everyone he's killed. All based off his Chaotic Evil belief that his happyness is more important to him than the existance of another person. In other words I want entertainment, there is a person right here, if i kill him it will be fun, So i'll kill him" I've seen Belkar yell at allies about as much as Durkon has. Haley has totally flipped on Celia and let me tell you this...

Oh so wonderful good Roy, has been taken by anger twice, to the point of it completely dominating his actions. He punched off someone's head, and then blew him up. The second person, He assaulted despite the fact that he was an ally and doing nothing more than bruising him, Roy jeapordized his own life and potentially the life of the world in a blind rage.

I'm not saying Roy is red ring material. But your saying belkar deserves the red ring is equal to.....Me choosing to have cereal for breakfast. Dont forget Belkar has an entire different belief and value system from the rest of us. Murder for him is merely a matter of "Do i value this person's life, or the consequences of me killing him, over whatever i want right now". While the other party members have almost all been taken up in various emotions to the point of almost, or aggressively violating their moral code.

[Zevox]

When you go to college,
Already graduated, thanks very much.


You'll learn not everyone has the same value system as you.
Already know that, thanks very much.


What you mean to say is not "Belkar doesnt have a reason to kill" but rather "Belkar doesnt have a good reason to kill based off my belief system and the belief system of mainstream society"
No, I mean what I've said. Belkar does not require a reason to kill things. He displayed that aptly with the Gnome.


But your saying belkar deserves the red ring is equal to.....Me choosing to have cereal for breakfast.
Er, no. I can't even actually respond to that because it makes no sense as an analogy... or any other form of statement for that matter.


Dont forget Belkar has an entire different belief and value system from the rest of us.
Which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the rage he has displayed would make him a candidate for a red ring.

Zevox

[HandofShadows]

I think the OP hit the nail right on the head with those choices. Good Job.

[Cerlis]

No, I mean what I've said. Belkar does not require a reason to kill things. He displayed that aptly with the Gnome.


Er, no. I can't even actually respond to that because it makes no sense as an analogy... or any other form of statement for that matter.


Which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the rage he has displayed would make him a candidate for a red ring.

Zevox

If he didnt have a reason to kill the Gnome, why did he?

and it makes perfect sense as an analogy because I put as much stock and decision into choosing my breakfast as Belkar does in deciding if someone should live or die.

And the last thing does because if I am correct, and I have every reason to believe I am he has no reason to be considered for red because his hatred doesnt drive him to kill people anymore than anything else. He will kill you cus he's mad, he will kill you cus your sad, he will kill you cus your bad. Belkar will kill you if he chooses too, and anger motivates it no more than lust, annoyance, greed, or giggles.

[hamishspence]

Belkar gave a reason:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html

"This is war! There's now one less gnome for the Resistance to fight, right?"

suggesting that, at the time, he thought the gnome was part of the enemies of Azure City.

He could be lying, and simply have killed the gnome out of a desire to murder, of course.

[Crisis21]

Belkar gave a reason:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html

"This is war! There's now one less gnome for the Resistance to fight, right?"

suggesting that, at the time, he thought the gnome was part of the enemies of Azure City.

He could be lying, and simply have killed the gnome out of a desire to murder, of course.

That was Belkar giving a reason he thought the others would buy. Haley had just defended his decision to kill a hobgoblin based on the war, so Belkar decided that if he claimed that his actions of murder were based on being in a war, then the others would accept them. Belkar has never really needed a reason to kill something beyond 'I want to kill them' but he likes to try some, admittedly really flimsy, excuses to convince others that he shouldn't be punished for his actions. Belkar is very much of the opinion that "My happiness over the next few moments is more important than this person's basic right to live."

[Ancalagon]

I'd say thats more from a lack of a "Its not ok to kill people just cus you dont like them" moral code. Belkar doesnt kill people unless he has a reason.

Well, the Powers of Celestia seem to disagree with that.

[hamishspence]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html

The precise wording was: murders anyone who:

"gets in his way"

or

"looks like they might possibly be thinking about getting anywhere sort of near his way at some unspecified future point, just to be sure"

[Coidzor]

Isn't Solomon Grundy physically more of a puppet of decaying plants and swamp muck anyway?

Because that sort of opens the opportunity for a black lantern poltergeist...

[Zevox]

If he didnt have a reason to kill the Gnome, why did he?
For no reason at all.


and it makes perfect sense as an analogy because I put as much stock and decision into choosing my breakfast as Belkar does in deciding if someone should live or die.
...but you didn't say anything about Belkar's mindset about other life in that statement, but about my contention that he qualifies for a red ring. So no, your statement there does not make any sense at all.


And the last thing does because if I am correct, and I have every reason to believe I am he has no reason to be considered for red because his hatred doesnt drive him to kill people anymore than anything else. He will kill you cus he's mad, he will kill you cus your sad, he will kill you cus your bad. Belkar will kill you if he chooses too, and anger motivates it no more than lust, annoyance, greed, or giggles.
None of which has anything to do with whether he qualifies for a red ring, since the red ring would select him based on how angry he was at the time, and my contention has simply been that he is more prone to anger than most, and thus more likely to attract a red ring. You seem to be confusing my argument that Belkar does not need a reason to kill, which was prompted by your statement to the contrary, with my argument that the red ring would be appropriate for him, which is another argument entirely.


Belkar gave a reason:

"This is war! There's now one less gnome for the Resistance to fight, right?"

suggesting that, at the time, he thought the gnome was part of the enemies of Azure City.
And that doesn't strike you as very out of character? That Belkar would actually think this random Gnome was an enemy of the resistance, and would care even if he did think that?

Really, both that and the donkey thing were transparent rationalizations he was offering to try and get Haley to shut up about the matter.

Zevox

[Cerlis]

Logically speaking if Belkar didnt need a reason to kill someone then every NPC he came across while not near a more powerful good or lawful character would be dead. There is a trigger, a decision he makes on whether or not to kill someone.

The gnome existed, the gnome was unimportant, and as we see by his "rationalizations" that he "knew" that if he killed him it would be ok. Which is why he is confused and defensive when Haley starts getting mad at him for no reason. Its just like when the Desert merchant thanks him. Belkar doesnt "Get it" he's going through this world trying to figure out why its ok to kill some people and not ok to kill other people so he can know how and when to kill people and not get in trouble for it.

Under our moral code, yes Killing someone out of petty anger is bad. But for Belkar killing is equivical to humiliating or insulting. In face he sees those two tortures as more heinous than killing because in his mind they suffer more.

So we can basically see that he acts out of anger no more or less than most characters (if he gets angry more its simply because a group of stick in the mud people he travels with keeps confusing him and telling him he cant do stuff for no good reason. Roy gets mad when you annoy him. Haley gets mad when you take her gold. Belkar gets mad when you tell him he cant kill someone. In his mind its the same thing, and if he gets mad more its because his values are violated by others more)

Its simply that the result of his anger, based on our moral code, is steaper. If we where all chaotic evil or lawful evil we'd all see that Belkar has a perfectly reasonable reaction to getting angry. His acts of murder are based off his disregard for life, not anger.

from what i read about the first Red Ringer, the red ring is probably more prone to someone with a seething anger, or who lives in hatred, the orginal's entire life was devoted to vengence. he was fueled by anger. Belkar gets no more angry than anyone else. Or so there is no confusion. Numerically Belkar does, but i've already said why he does. "Belkar gets no more angry than can be reasonably expected by someone who has their morals and values trampled on so often"

Edit: and if a Red ring can choose you just cus you get a bit angry, such as a good man who is one hundred percent kind and courteos and friendly, finding his wife in bed with another man. I.E. someone getting really mad once. Then everyone of the OOtS characters is red ring material. Roy and Haley and Miko more so. But from what I see thats not the case.

[Zevox]

Logically speaking if Belkar didnt need a reason to kill someone then every NPC he came across while not near a more powerful good or lawful character would be dead.
Again, not needing a reason to kill is not the same thing as actively killing everyone he comes across.


The gnome existed, the gnome was unimportant, and as we see by his "rationalizations" that he "knew" that if he killed him it would be ok.
...and does any of that provide a reason for killing him?


But for Belkar killing is equivical to humiliating or insulting. In face he sees those two tortures as more heinous than killing because in his mind they suffer more.
Evidence please. (Note: this is again unrelated to the red ring discussion, I simply do not like seeing people throw around claims about a character's thoughts and mindset without evidence to back it up.)


(if he gets angry more its simply because a group of stick in the mud people he travels with keeps confusing him and telling him he cant do stuff for no good reason.)
It doesn't matter why he is more prone to anger, only that he is.


from what i read about the first Red Ringer, the red ring is probably more prone to someone with a seething anger, or who lives in hatred, the orginal's entire life was devoted to vengence.
The first Red Lantern does not determine who the red rings seek out - the rings are fueled by the red light, and they seek out those capable of wielding it.


and if a Red ring can choose you just cus you get a bit angry
More than a bit, but any instance of great anger can cause a red ring to choose you. Hal Jordan, the preeminent human Green Lantern, was once selected by a red ring because of a moment of rage he had when Sinestro killed someone he was trying to save. The thing is, because the red light is on the far end of the emotional spectrum, the red rings exert quite a bit of control over those they choose as their bearers, amplifying their rage and hate and keeping it constant, so unlike the others they do not require someone who is normally always in tune with their particular emotion.

That's something common to the entire spectrum of light, just fyi. The further away a color is from the center (green), the more influence it has over its wielder. Thus the red rings more or less control their wielders by driving them into a constant rage, the Star Sapphires are capable of using the violet light to more or less brainwash individuals into joining them, and the orange light exacerbates Larfleeze's natural greed to hyperbolic levels, while the yellow and blue lights merely strengthen their wielders' natural tendencies to minor degrees. (I'm not familiar with the effects of the indigo light on its wielders.) Only the green light leaves the wielder wholly as he or she normally is.


Then everyone of the OOtS characters is red ring material.
Theoretically possible, yes, but unlike the others I would say (and have been saying) that Belkar is a best-fit for it because he is more prone to anger than the rest.

Zevox

[Mystic Muse]

Durkon doesn't budge easily when someone tries to force him to move.

This isn't Necessarily a bad thing.



Oh so wonderful good Roy, has been taken by anger twice, to the point of it completely dominating his actions. He punched off someone's head, and then blew him up. If you don't think Xykon deserved that and more then you've got problems. Xykon is a Complete monster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster) (warning, TVtropes link.)
The second person, He assaulted despite the fact that he was an ally and doing nothing more than bruising him, Roy jeapordized his own life and potentially the life of the world in a blind rage. Wait what? When did this happen? If you're counting Belkar, he can't exactly Jeapordize the life of the world by killing him since he's going to die in less than 5 weeks anyway. Even if that's true, he wouldn't have killed him by hitting him once with the equivalent of a big stick if Belkar is around or past level 10 or so. Also, Belkar is barely an Ally and I don't anybody in the OOTS considers him one. Last but not least, there are probably other characters that are just as helpful, if not more important for saving the world.

[Crisis21]

Wait what? When did this happen? If you're counting Belkar, he can't exactly Jeapordize the life of the world by killing him since he's going to die in less than 5 weeks anyway. Even if that's true, he wouldn't have killed him by hitting him once with the equivalent of a big stick if Belkar is around or past level 10 or so. Also, Belkar is barely an Ally and I don't anybody in the OOTS considers him one. Last but not least, there are probably other characters that are just as helpful, if not more important for saving the world.

I'd like to chime in with two things:

1) Justified rage is still rage. Simply because you can provide good reason for the way you were feeling and justification for your actions neither changes how you felt or how you acted. Personally, I believe Belkar's worth, or lack thereof, as a member of the Order does not justify injuring him. His deliberate provocation of Roy by hitting him repeatedly on the other hand, probably does justify Roy's reaction.

2) Rage, in regards to the Red Rings, is not simply a knee-jerk reaction like Roy's was in both instances. It is a deep seething hatred, rational or irrational, that can drive the person to rage in an instant even if they are otherwise calm and rational. This is part of why I picked Redcloak for a Red Lantern. His very first reaction upon seeing Miko, a member of the Sapphire Guard? Blind killing rage. He hates humans completely, and even if he has altruistic motives where his own people are concerned, that hatred is a major driving force in Redcloak's life.

The Red Rings don't just seek out a moment of extreme anger, they seek out hatred in their recruits.

[Mystic Muse]

I'd like to chime in with two things:

1) Justified rage is still rage. Simply because you can provide good reason for the way you were feeling and justification for your actions neither changes how you felt or how you acted. Personally, I believe Belkar's worth, or lack thereof, as a member of the Order does not justify injuring him. His deliberate provocation of Roy by hitting him repeatedly on the other hand, probably does justify Roy's reaction.

2) Rage, in regards to the Red Rings, is not simply a knee-jerk reaction like Roy's was in both instances. It is a deep seething hatred, rational or irrational, that can drive the person to rage in an instant even if they are otherwise calm and rational. This is part of why I picked Redcloak for a Red Lantern. His very first reaction upon seeing Miko, a member of the Sapphire Guard? Blind killing rage. He hates humans completely, and even if he has altruistic motives where his own people are concerned, that hatred is a major driving force in Redcloak's life.

The Red Rings don't just seek out a moment of extreme anger, they seek out hatred in their recruits.

Good point. I actually don't know all that much about any of the rings. I was just saying that it isn't nearly as bad as Cerlis makes it out to be.

[Cerlis]

Zevok:
Yes not needing a reason to kill someone is different than killing everyone you come across. Belkar isnt a mindless automoton. he's not a zombie, he doesnt just kill cus thats the only thing he knows how to do. He makes a choice. He makes a choice not to kill Roy for certian reasons, he makes a choice to kill Kobalds for a reason. he makes a choice to kill pointless NPC Gnomes (the fact that they are pointless NPC's who's sole purpose is to provide some sort of plot device, as we all know the entire party is aware of this aspect of the universe, is good reason for Belkar to kill him).

Belkar makes a choice, that choice is determined by thought, reason, and motivation. So yes, it did provide a reason for Belkar killing him. The Gnome wasnt powerful enough to stop him (Roy), wasn't Cool (Shojo) and wasn't hard to kill (such as being out of reach or not in his way) or any other reason Belkar chooses to not kill who he decides to not kill.
Belkar knew he was just a pointless no name NPC meant to give plot reason for a Cart to show up, he (thought he) knew that since he was unimportant and since haley gave him a fair justification for murdering people that he could kill him without anyone trying to imprisson scold or attack him (and Haley proves, that he was able to kill him without getting imprisoned or killed)

By being killable, he has given reason to kill him.
--------------------
well if you HAVE to have evidence, then his approval of Roy's form of torture for the bandit Father and daughter is good reason. And i'm sure if i looked through all 700+ pages i might find more evidence.

I'd be cautious about asking for evidence for everything. There are innocent people imprissoned and Guilty people free because of people only caring about Evidence.

And if Crisis' assessment of Being a Red Ringer is accurate then that coencides with my discussion about how Belkar only seems to get angry more than the rest of the party because his values are violeted more. He gets no more angry than your average person in his shoes (if they had his moral scheme). If Haley where in a Chaotic evil party she'd get pissed in the same frequency as him. Number doesnt = intensity.


Kyuubi:
I never said that was a bad thing. I was basically saying "Durkon seems to get people alot. People might say he doesnt because he keeps trying to keep people from doing stuff against his morals, but thats really a matter of him not budging from his morals. I think he fits with Indigo, because you dont have to agree with people to understand them, and i think Durkon does that"


And I dont mean that Roy was wrong in anything he did necessarily, expessially what he did to Xykon. Heck that was badass. I'm just saying as far as i remember he is the only one besides Miko that has been so blinded by rage it completely controlled his actions.



Crisis and Kyuubi: I need to go back and look at what others have said about Redcloak since i skimmed over that. But i think he might not be given enough credit. I havent read start to darkness, but up until recent his actions seemed to be driven by his hate for humans. Just cus he isnt frothing out the mouth...when your life is controlled by hatred...eh but yea i need to read whats been said already so feel free to ignore this paragraph for now

[Mystic Muse]

I'd be cautious about asking for evidence for everything. There are innocent people imprissoned and Guilty people free because of people only caring about Evidence.


While this is true, it isn't really the case on a website when you're asking about a comic.

[Kish]

I'd be cautious about asking for evidence for everything. There are innocent people imprissoned and Guilty people free because of people only caring about Evidence.
...Oh good lord.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I'd be cautious about asking for evidence for everything. There are innocent people imprissoned and Guilty people free because of people only caring about Evidence.

And the same thing can be said about people NOT caring about evidence.

There IS some logic to what you say...Belkar had no reason NOT to kill the gnome...but that in itself is a reason, therefore Belkar does not kill without reason.

But then again, it demonstrates Belkar's baseline, his default mindset, is KILL, HURT, MAKE SCREAM THEN DEAD!

So the fact he NEEDS a reason to not kill means he kills without reason (for the sake of simplicity), as opposed to some others, who must be given a reason to kill before they do so.

Back to the topic...

I'm really not that qualified, having never read those books. Does anybody know exactly what defines a White Lantern, though?

[Cerlis]

didnt say anything against evidence. Just saying if you throw an idea away just cus you dont have immediate evidence then your missing something

[Zevox]

By being killable, he has given reason to kill him.
And you don't see how that is exactly equivalent to not needing a reason to kill?


well if you HAVE to have evidence, then his approval of Roy's form of torture for the bandit Father and daughter is good reason.
...and that is evidence of Belkar considering humiliation or insults worse than death how? :smallconfused: That's just evidence of Belkar being sick and twisted in general. Heck, Roy leaving those two together doesn't even qualify as humiliating or insulting, just extremely irritating for the two of them.


I'd be cautious about asking for evidence for everything. There are innocent people imprissoned and Guilty people free because of people only caring about Evidence.
No, there are innocent people imprisoned because systems make mistakes, and guilty people free because of a lack of evidence to convict them. However, to base something like imprisonment on anything but hard evidence would be far and away worse.

And we should probably not take that tangent any further lest we hit political territory.

On a more general note, there is no reason to be cautious about asking for evidence. If you cannot supply evidence to support your view, then plainly you do not have much of an argument to stand on. That's simply how logical, reasoned discussion works.


And if Crisis' assessment of Being a Red Ringer is accurate
His statements are not accurate based on the comics I have - the compilation Rage of the Red Lanterns, which contains the story arc that first introduced the Red Lanterns. As I mentioned, a red ring selected Hal Jordan, a major Green Lantern, due to a moment of rage on his part in that story.

Zevox

[AgentofOdd]

I'm really not that qualified, having never read those books. Does anybody know exactly what defines a White Lantern, though?As of right now, no one really knows. So far, the ring limits itself to telling it's wearers to live, randomly healing people, and emphasizing resurrections are a big no no.
I'm not familiar with the effects of the indigo light on its wielders.Without getting into spoilers, the light is quite capable in altering people's minds. The effects are actually quite disconcerting, and makes you wonder just how much they have in common with the Star Sapphires.


And if Crisis' assessment of Being a Red Ringer is accurate then that coencides with my discussion about how Belkar only seems to get angry more than the rest of the party because his values are violeted more. He gets no more angry than your average person in his shoes (if they had his moral scheme). If Haley where in a Chaotic evil party she'd get pissed in the same frequency as him. Number doesnt = intensity.I'd also like to note that all recruits have been regular folks who were lost in a moment of extreme indignant rage against someone/thing, or the universe at large. The only exception would be Atrocitus, the leader who was and is perpetually raging.

Still, it's worth noting that all the Red Lanterns qualified for their rings because they really cared about something (freedom, love, life, etc) and it was cruelly taken away. Due to Belkar's sociopathy, I don't think he ever felt that level of hatred in his life. Frankly, I don't think he'll ever get that mad. He kind of went there when Scruffy was in danger, but it's nowhere near say Miko ignoring reason, due process and her paladin code to kill Shojo because she felt he betrayed her. That's the kind of anger you need to even possibly qualify for the Red. Now, if Scruffy died and Belkar got really mad, then maybe we can consider him a possible Red Lantern candidate. As of right now though, I'd say Belkar is the least likely Red Lantern candidate in OotS.

[Zevox]

Without getting into spoilers, the light is quite capable in altering people's minds. The effects are actually quite disconcerting, and makes you wonder just how much they have in common with the Star Sapphires.
Huh, interesting. Well, I guess I'll look forward to learning the specifics in a couple of weeks, since I recently ordered the Blackest Night compilation off Amazon with a couple of other non-comic books.

Zevox

[Crisis21]

I'm really not that qualified, having never read those books. Does anybody know exactly what defines a White Lantern, though?

Technically, no one does. The White is Life, much like the Black was Death. The temporary White Lanterns consisted of all those heroes who had died and returned to life. There are currently 12 former Black Lanterns who have been returned to life, but do not completely have their life back until they perform a task given them by the Entity (who embodies all Life in the DC universe). Deadman in particular has been given the task of selecting a permanent White Lantern. He's still searching to my knowledge.


His statements are not accurate based on the comics I have - the compilation Rage of the Red Lanterns, which contains the story arc that first introduced the Red Lanterns. As I mentioned, a red ring selected Hal Jordan, a major Green Lantern, due to a moment of rage on his part in that story.

I've read that too, and I got a slightly different take from that event. As far as I can tell, the Red Light of Rage is not mere anger, nor could it be considered Wrath (one of the Seven Sins) really. Wrath has an implication of harming another for one's own benefit, which falls under the Orange Light. Rage is the hatred and desire to destroy regardless of what it costs you to do so. This is particularly accurate in the case of the Red Rings as the expel the bearer's blood and replace it with the ring's own power, ensuring that a Red Lantern cannot remove their ring without dying as a result. It is entirely possible to fall under it very suddenly like Hal did, since a former comrade he'd been trying to save from the influence of a Red Ring was brutally killed, but it is also possible for a bearer of the Red Light to have a long-term festering hatred fueling them like Atrocitus, the leader of the Red Lanterns.

If you enter the state of being so consumed by Rage that you will gladly destroy yourself to destroy the object of your hatred, whether it happens in an instant or over a prolonged period of time, you are Red Lantern material.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'd be cautious about asking for evidence for everything. There are innocent people imprissoned and Guilty people free because of people only caring about Evidence.
[citation needed]

[Zevox]

If you enter the state of being so consumed by Rage that you will gladly destroy yourself to destroy the object of your hatred, whether it happens in an instant or over a prolonged period of time, you are Red Lantern material.
That's the thing - I don't see Hal as reaching that much anger there. Sure, Sinestro pissed him off quite a bit, but he isn't in that kind of a total fury. Heck, he even hesitates in killing Sinestro, when he clearly has him in a position where he easily could (and his ring even outright prompts him by saying "awaiting verbal command"), and even takes a moment to answer Saint Walker when he tells him to stop. Even after being taken by the red ring it takes a bit of prompting for him to finally strike Sinestro with his power (though it proves insufficient to kill Sinestro before Saint Walker gives Jordan a blue ring).

Someone as consumed by the sort of rage you describe wouldn't hesitate or wait once he had the chance to kill his target like that, he'd simply do it.

Zevox

[Crisis21]

That's the thing - I don't see Hal as reaching that much anger there. Sure, Sinestro pissed him off quite a bit, but he isn't in that kind of a total fury. Heck, he even hesitates in killing Sinestro, when he clearly has him in a position where he easily could (and his ring even outright prompts him by saying "awaiting verbal command"), and even takes a moment to answer Saint Walker when he tells him to stop. Even after being taken by the red ring it takes a bit of prompting for him to finally strike Sinestro with his power (though it proves insufficient to kill Sinestro before Saint Walker gives Jordan a blue ring).

Someone as consumed by the sort of rage you describe wouldn't hesitate or wait once he had the chance to kill his target like that, he'd simply do it.

Zevox

What you're forgetting here is that Hal was still wearing his Green Lantern Ring at the time. So what we have at this point is an internal war of Rage vs Will. If Hal had been completely under the sway of the Red Ring, he would not have hesitated. However, as a Green Lantern, Hal has a great deal of willpower, which allows a person to control their emotions. This is what allows him to resist the influence of both the Red Ring and his own rage. Hal is meant to be displayed as the exception in this scenario, not the rule.

[Zevox]

What you're forgetting here is that Hal was still wearing his Green Lantern Ring at the time. So what we have at this point is an internal war of Rage vs Will. If Hal had been completely under the sway of the Red Ring, he would not have hesitated. However, as a Green Lantern, Hal has a great deal of willpower, which allows a person to control their emotions. This is what allows him to resist the influence of both the Red Ring and his own rage. Hal is meant to be displayed as the exception in this scenario, not the rule.
An odd claim, considering Atrocitus' statement that the reason Hal was so easily taken by a red ring is because he has "no coping skills when it comes to anger." It also seems to go against the known fact that unlike the other rings, the green ones do not affect their bearers, but are merely tools for the Green Lanterns to use. The Green Lantern controls his ring with his willpower, but the ring does nothing to the Green Lantern or his will, so the fact that he is still wearing his green ring cannot affect things here.

Zevox

[TheEmerged]

RE: Standards for getting a red ring. Y'all might be overthinking this a bit. I mean, one picked a standard Earth cat (Dexter). They obviously aren't as choosy as the other rings.

[Crisis21]

An odd claim, considering Atrocitus' statement that the reason Hal was so easily taken by a red ring is because he has "no coping skills when it comes to anger." It also seems to go against the known fact that unlike the other rings, the green ones do not affect their bearers, but are merely tools for the Green Lanterns to use. The Green Lantern controls his ring with his willpower, but the ring does nothing to the Green Lantern or his will, so the fact that he is still wearing his green ring cannot affect things here.

Zevox

My personal pet theory is that not only does Will not exert any control over the bearer, it also allows the bearer to, at least partially, control those emotions of the other six Corps. This fits in with what willpower does in real life, allowing people to control their emotions and act despite them.

[Zevox]

My personal pet theory is that not only does Will not exert any control over the bearer, it also allows the bearer to, at least partially, control those emotions of the other six Corps. This fits in with what willpower does in real life, allowing people to control their emotions and act despite them.
That's nice, but unless you have some evidence for it, it's nothing more than an unsupported assertion.

Zevox

[Crisis21]

That's nice, but unless you have some evidence for it, it's nothing more than an unsupported assertion.

My evidence is the fact that real life willpower lets a person exert control over their emotions. I find nothing odd with the idea that Lantern Rings would work in a similar manner.

In-comic evidence is the Green Lantern recruitment phrase 'Overcome Fear'. Not 'immune to fear', not 'incapable of feeling fear', 'overcome fear'.

Also, Hal Jordan is the only person to wear a Red Lantern Ring aside from Atrocitus to maintain some level of control over himself. Atrocitus is the leader, Hal Jordan was wearing a Green Lantern ring at the time. I do not feel that this is a coincidence and that it has some significance.

[Zevox]

My evidence is the fact that real life willpower lets a person exert control over their emotions. I find nothing odd with the idea that Lantern Rings would work in a similar manner.
By evidence I mean something which suggests that the green lantern rings actually work that way in the comic.


In-comic evidence is the Green Lantern recruitment phrase 'Overcome Fear'. Not 'immune to fear', not 'incapable of feeling fear', 'overcome fear'.
Which this is not. The rings tell their chosen recruits that they were selected for their ability to overcome fear, not that the rings will grant them the ability to overcome fear. This is something all GL recruits already possess, not an effect of their rings.


Also, Hal Jordan is the only person to wear a Red Lantern Ring aside from Atrocitus to maintain some level of control over himself. Atrocitus is the leader, Hal Jordan was wearing a Green Lantern ring at the time. I do not feel that this is a coincidence and that it has some significance.
Hal did not maintain control over himself. He is shown trying to fight for it, briefly, but he clearly lost, as he was in fact fighting alongside the Red Lanterns, and did try to kill Sinestro, up until Saint Walker placed the blue ring on him so it could expunge the red.

Zevox

[AgentofOdd]

By evidence I mean something which suggests that the green lantern rings actually work that way in the comic.Guy Gardner (the other Green Lantern gone Red) suggests it works that way. He, along with Kyle are the only Red Lanterns who managed to exert any self-control without outside help. There's also some visual suggestions in Gardner's part. Whenever he'd become lucid there would be a hint of green in his red aura. This is all from Green Lantern Corps 44-45.

I would like to note though that when Kyle got the Red Ring, the Green one was actually disabled.

[Crisis21]

Which this is not. The rings tell their chosen recruits that they were selected for their ability to overcome fear, not that the rings will grant them the ability to overcome fear. This is something all GL recruits already possess, not an effect of their rings.

Hal did not maintain control over himself. He is shown trying to fight for it, briefly, but he clearly lost, as he was in fact fighting alongside the Red Lanterns, and did try to kill Sinestro, up until Saint Walker placed the blue ring on him so it could expunge the red.

Right, they use their will to overcome fear, which lets their Green rings combat the Yellow rings of the Sinestro Corps. By possessing strong wills, the Green Lanterns are able to resist the influence of the Yellow Light. If it works in a relationship between Green and Yellow, I fail to see how the same couldn't work between the Green and Red.

Hal being able to struggle for his control only supports my theory of an internal Will vs Rage conflict.


Guy Gardner (the other Green Lantern gone Red) suggests it works that way. He, along with Kyle are the only Red Lanterns who managed to exert any self-control without outside help. There's also some visual suggestions in Gardner's part. Whenever he'd become lucid there would be a hint of green in his red aura. This is all from Green Lantern Corps 44-45.

I would like to note though that when Kyle got the Red Ring, the Green one was actually disabled.

Whoops, forgot all about Kyle and Guy wearing Red Rings. I remember hearing about that, but did not read those particular issues.

[Zevox]

Right, they use their will to overcome fear, which lets their Green rings combat the Yellow rings of the Sinestro Corps. By possessing strong wills, the Green Lanterns are able to resist the influence of the Yellow Light. If it works in a relationship between Green and Yellow, I fail to see how the same couldn't work between the Green and Red.
What you are failing to make a distinction between is the Green Lantern's will and the green rings themselves. The green rings are tools for harnessing the green light. They are used to combat the Sinestro Corps physically. Their will is separate from the rings and the light, only used to control them, and it is what allows them to overcome the emotion of fear, not the rings.


Hal being able to struggle for his control only supports my theory of an internal Will vs Rage conflict.
Except of course that there is no reason to believe that this is due to his ring rather than merely his will. And perhaps it is shown in stories I have not read, but we also do not know whether other red ring recipients struggle against them initially or not either - that may well be completely normal.

Unfortunately I cannot comment much on the Guy/Kyle incident described, as I do not have the book it occurs in. Sounds interesting, but based on the description given I'd tend to think that the fact that Kyle managed this while his ring was disabled indicates that it is their own willpower, not the rings, enabling them to resist.

Zevox

[Crisis21]

What you are failing to make a distinction between is the Green Lantern's will and the green rings themselves. The green rings are tools for harnessing the green light. They are used to combat the Sinestro Corps physically. Their will is separate from the rings and the light, only used to control them, and it is what allows them to overcome the emotion of fear, not the rings.

Okay, I'm guessing that we can agree that the Green Lantern's will plays a part when the GL is being influenced by another color. I fully agree that it is the Lanterns' will and not the rings, and apologize for my failure to make that clear. If the Green Lantern's willpower is not up to the challenge, then their green light constructs will shatter under an assault by the yellow rings. However, if their willpower is up to the task, the opposite can become true.

That same will is what fuels their Green ring. The green light, as defined by the DC mythos, is willpower in a very real sense. My theory involves the idea that a Green Lantern wearing a green ring can better focus their willpower since that is, essentially, what the green rings do in the first place.

[Zevox]

That same will is what fuels their Green ring. The green light, as defined by the DC mythos, is willpower in a very real sense. My theory involves the idea that a Green Lantern wearing a green ring can better focus their willpower since that is, essentially, what the green rings do in the first place.
The problem is that the rings focus the willpower into wielding the light, which would have no effect on their ability to resist a red ring that chose them, since such resistance would be entirely internal, and the light-constructs the ring creates are solely physical and external from the lantern. The rings do not, based on the comics I have read, grant the lanterns themselves any sort of enhancement to that willpower itself, which is what you seemed to be suggesting earlier.

Zevox

[Crisis21]

The problem is that the rings focus the willpower into wielding the light, which would have no effect on their ability to resist a red ring that chose them, since such resistance would be entirely internal, and the light-constructs the ring creates are solely physical and external from the lantern. The rings do not, based on the comics I have read, grant the lanterns themselves any sort of enhancement to that willpower itself, which is what you seemed to be suggesting earlier.

Zevox

Ah. I was intending to suggest no such thing.

I need to work on that apparently. :smalltongue:

[Shatteredtower]

Belkar would favour yellow over red. Red doesn't give you room to savour your gains, as it's all about loss. There is a reason rage was given symmetry with love, something else Belkar lacks.

Likewise, Durkon suits indigo, the opposition to orange avarice. As a sending spell attempt noted, nothing distinguishes him from other dwarves. His quest is not of his choosing. His deity's example a path he cannot bring himself to follow, otherwise things with a certain cleric of Loki would have turned out differently. He has the Indigo sublimation of self down.

Miko and a certain black dragon were the best candidates for red. Both had the rage and the fragile heart.

[Morph Bark]

:mitd: "What's a Lantern? It sounds cool! Can I join? Oh please oh please oh pretty please? Ooh, you guys have cereal box code rings! That is so awesome, can I have one too? Do you have one in turquoise?"

[Crisis21]

:mitd: "What's a Lantern? It sounds cool! Can I join? Oh please oh please oh pretty please? Ooh, you guys have cereal box code rings! That is so awesome, can I have one too? Do you have one in turquoise?"

You sir, win an internet.