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Arts.Edge
2010-09-26, 08:11 PM
I've heard people say that there's a serious exploit with the Iron Heart maneuver from the Tome of Battle. The maneuver is Iron Heart Surge. The exploit is that when it's used to end an active effect on a player, the maneuver as written ends the cause of the effect as well as the effect itself. So, for instance, if the character is in an anti-magic field and uses the maneuver, the spell itself is dispelled. This is exploitive.

But I don't see that the text does support the reading of this maneuver as exploitive, or at least, it doesn't seem like a necessary reading:

"Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately."

As the last sentence from the maneuver description states, "That effect ends immediately". It states you should specify a spell or condition affecting you, and then the effect ends immediately. The spell or condition is the cause of the effect. If it was true that the cause of the effect was ended, it seems unlikely the unambiguous sentence "that effect ends immediately" would have occurred. The word "effect" in the final sentence quoted is far less likely to refer to the cause of the effect than it is to refer to the effect of the cause.

Therefore, I believe that if this maneuver were to be activated in an anti-magic field, the effect of the field on the character would be ended. And not the converse, that the anti-magic field itself would be ended.

I'm bringing this up here because I think what I'm saying here is against the common wisdom in reference to the direct reading of the maneuver's description.

To be totally clear, I'm not talking at all about what's permissible in a campaign or a game. I just don't agree with the people who've told me that this maneuver as written is exploitive. What do you guys think?

arguskos
2010-09-26, 08:27 PM
To be totally clear, I'm not talking at all about what's permissible in a campaign or a game. I just don't agree with the people who've told me that this maneuver as written is exploitive. What do you guys think?
Define, in D&D terms alone, what a "condition" is. It's never fully clarified. This means that a player can, using RAW and twisting logic, claim that nearly anything is a "condition" and thus "end" it with IHS. Therein lies the issue. The ability is ambiguous, which causes issues. Ambiguity in 3.5 causes problems.

Urpriest
2010-09-26, 08:29 PM
Example logic: the sun is in my eyes! Iron Heart Surge to END THE SUN!!

arguskos
2010-09-26, 08:33 PM
Example logic: the sun is in my eyes! Iron Heart Surge to END THE SUN!!
And, sadly, this can be argued to work using the wording of that ability. :smallsigh: IHS is just stupidly put together.

Vangor
2010-09-26, 08:38 PM
And, sadly, this can be argued to work using the wording of that ability. :smallsigh: IHS is just stupidly put together.

No. The problem is this requires RAW for constituting an effect with an extremely loose RAI for duration. Yes, the sun has a duration in terms of physics. No, the sun does not have a duration in terms of the d&d world. You likewise could not remove a mountain collapse because eventually erosion and tectonic forces will, thus giving this a duration.

The issue with IHS is effect can, as I recall, apply to AMF itself, amongst other things. You are not under the effect of magic suppression or similar but under the effect anti-magic field, and thus if you end the effect you end the field.

VirOath
2010-09-26, 08:43 PM
IHS as written will end the effect on them, the condition on them. So while the sun may be in their eyes, using it wouldn't end the sun, just end the negative effect of being partly blinded by the sun. They get a pair of shades in other words.

But on the flip side, using IHS to end an AMF is actually the BALANCED way of reading it. It isn't exploitive, excessive or anything of the like, because consider the alternative.

IHS to end the effect of an AMF, so the AMF no longer affects them, yet is still up and affecting everyone else. So the Warblade is the only one with Magic in an Anti-Magic area. If that isn't overpowered, I don't know what is.

Arts.Edge
2010-09-26, 08:53 PM
Urpriest: As I tried to clarify, the cause of the sun being in one's eyes is the sun itself. The sun being in one's eyes is the effect. Ending the effect does not logically imply ending the cause. As VirOath says, "they gey a pair of shades".

I'm not saying you're necessarily incorrect, just that there is nothing in the description to force the interpretation you suggest.

Vangor: The effect of a mountain's existence on a warblade with IHS is it being apparent in the visual field or otherwise sensually present. It seems quite logical to me that the result of using IHS to end this "effect" would be making the warblade ignorant of the mountain's existence, though everyone else still is.

VirOath: I really can't speak to whether or not that's a balanced usage of IHS. I'm trying to argue for what seems to me to be the most logical interpretation of RAW. And I think the most logical interpretation, that is, the logical consequence of the words written in the description, is that only the warblade is affected by IHS, and nothing external to her.

I think the key point here is the distinction between what is a cause and what is an effect. The maneuver description specifically states that an effect can be ended, and while it doesn't mention the cause, the fact that it specifies that the effect is what is ended implies to me that the cause is not ended.

Cause and effect can always be logically separated: in any cause-effect pair one could exist without the other, logically speaking at least. Therefore, there is no case in which it is logically necessary that the cause is ended because the effect is ended.

awa
2010-09-26, 08:55 PM
people need to read the first post whether the sun can be affected like a spell is irrelevant to his question

Urpriest
2010-09-26, 09:01 PM
A more serious answer: you're reading the word effect as the word in the phrase "cause and effect", but in doing so you're essentially murdering catgirls. Effect has a meaning in D&D (though not IIRC a rigorously defined one) that functions as an abbreviation for "status effect", i.e. the occupier of the "debuff slot" on a character. What precisely occupies that slot (the spell? the condition, like stun or nauseated? the sun?) is unfortunately something that D&D has very little precedent on, so you're essentially defaulting to metaphysics, and unfortunately modern analytical metaphysics hasn't really seen fit to publish on D&D.

Arts.Edge
2010-09-26, 09:08 PM
Haha, thanks urpriest. Good point. I just finished a philosophy degree; that is exactly how I'm looking at it. I'm still not convinced that the reading I'm arguing against is necessary, but I think it's probably true that, as you suggest, there's no real answer to the question.

This still supports the conclusion that people who insist that the RAW interpretation means that the "cause of the effect", as I've used that term, is ended by IHS are making a conclusive claim from inconclusive evidence.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-26, 09:46 PM
Every time this comes up, I always end up reminding the same thing. No one seriously tries to argue that IHS can put out the sun. It's just used as the shorthand for "IHS is horribly written" - it's supposed to be able to fix things like Stunning, Domination/Charm, Paralysis, etc. It can't, because it's a standard action, but it can do things like evaporate antimagic fields and Walls of Fire, which it shouldn't be able to.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-26, 09:58 PM
Define, in D&D terms alone, what a "condition" is. It's never fully clarified. This means that a player can, using RAW and twisting logic, claim that nearly anything is a "condition" and thus "end" it with IHS. Therein lies the issue. The ability is ambiguous, which causes issues. Ambiguity in 3.5 causes problems.

By RAW, conditions don't exist, therefor you can't use that function of Iron Heart Surge.

arguskos
2010-09-26, 10:05 PM
By RAW, conditions don't exist, therefor you can't use that function of Iron Heart Surge.
'cept that IHS calls them out. See the issues? It's so badly worded it can't even be conclusively determined what the damn thing DOES.

We all know (probably) what it was meant to handle, as Glyphstone points out, but my point here is that the wording is SO bad that you can argue almost anything if you are feeling bullish enough. That's all I'm saying.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-26, 10:09 PM
'cept that IHS calls them out. See the issues? It's so badly worded it can't even be conclusively determined what the damn thing DOES.

We all know (probably) what it was meant to handle, as Glyphstone points out, but my point here is that the wording is SO bad that you can argue almost anything if you are feeling bullish enough. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah, I'd have to rule that it can end status effects (which would've been a MUCH better wording).

Also, is it just me or does wizards like to use abilities and stuff that never get seen again... I remember a magic card that is actually completely useless because wizards screwed it up. It was a rare too. A rare I happened to get. Dx

Esser-Z
2010-09-26, 10:11 PM
Every time this comes up, I always end up reminding the same thing. No one seriously tries to argue that IHS can put out the sun. It's just used as the shorthand for "IHS is horribly written" - it's supposed to be able to fix things like Stunning, Domination/Charm, Paralysis, etc. It can't, because it's a standard action, but it can do things like evaporate antimagic fields and Walls of Fire, which it shouldn't be able to.

This. Exactly this. IHS does what it shouldn't, but doesn't do what it should.

Arts.Edge
2010-09-26, 10:16 PM
Well, Glyphstone, why are you sure that IHS can end Wall of Fire or anti-magic fields? As I've argued, it seems legit that such things would be made, by usage of IHS, to stop effecting the warblade, and the Wall of Fire or AMF itself would not be ended.

Maybe it should be a swift action counter, written so it can end status effects before they begin such as paralysis, stun and dominate, but not prevent HP damage, which isn't a status effect.

Lamech
2010-09-26, 10:17 PM
Every time this comes up, I always end up reminding the same thing. No one seriously tries to argue that IHS can put out the sun. It's just used as the shorthand for "IHS is horribly written" - it's supposed to be able to fix things like Stunning, Domination/Charm, Paralysis, etc. It can't, because it's a standard action, but it can do things like evaporate antimagic fields and Walls of Fire, which it shouldn't be able to.

I don't see what the big deal with ending spell effects is. Obviously not working on what it should is a big deal, but have you looked at what other extrordinary ablities, and manuvers can pull off? Regeneration. Mimicing the heal spell, making someone get an extra turn? A dispel isn't really a big deal.

Douglas
2010-09-26, 10:21 PM
By RAW, conditions don't exist, therefor you can't use that function of Iron Heart Surge.
Then what are these (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)?

Lhurgyof
2010-09-26, 10:23 PM
Then what are these (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)?

Oh, then I guess IHS isn't broken at all.

Mando Knight
2010-09-26, 10:28 PM
And, sadly, this can be argued to work using the wording of that ability. :smallsigh: IHS is just stupidly put together.

Especially if you're a sun-vulnerable race with initiator levels.

"IRON DROW SURGE! TREMBLE IN DARKNESS, HAPPY SURFACE-DWELLING FOOLS! AHAHAHAHAHAHA!" :smalltongue:

Tiki Snakes
2010-09-26, 10:32 PM
Then what are these (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)?

Ah, good to see. As being Dead is a condition and it doesn't prevent taking actions, you can IHS your way to immortality. :smallsmile:
Admittedly, you may need some way to take actions while unconcious, as your temp hp is greater than your current, afaik.

VirOath
2010-09-26, 10:59 PM
Ah, good to see. As being Dead is a condition and it doesn't prevent taking actions, you can IHS your way to immortality. :smallsmile:
Admittedly, you may need some way to take actions while unconcious, as your temp hp is greater than your current, afaik.

But! Only once per combat, until you refresh the maneuver. Get nicked again, and you die. Or would your current HP IHS you out of death, but back into unconscious and bleeding out? So a 10% chance to not die?

Tiki Snakes
2010-09-26, 11:02 PM
Well, you stopped bleeding out when you died, and stopped being dead when you IHS'ed. You haven't gained any HP yet though, so you'd probably still be snoozing.

You'd effectively be stable, but wouldn't actually have the stable condition, I suppose. :smallsmile:

VirOath
2010-09-26, 11:06 PM
So stable, but without the stable condition? So just normal then, no condition? So you would regain hp back as per normal healing rules. Yikes, getting knocked into the deep negs then IHSing out of death could leave you in a coma for months!

And then, you'd die from dehydration without assistance.

Tiki Snakes
2010-09-26, 11:08 PM
Forgive my lack of knowledge, doesn't IHS refresh after an extended rest/daily or anything?

VirOath
2010-09-26, 11:19 PM
Hmmmm, true. Forgot that one, after about 5 minutes of rest it would refresh. Thanks for the reminder. But dear god, waking up to find yourself a -60 would break the pain scale.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-26, 11:19 PM
Each initiator has ways of refreshing it (a Warblade or Swordsage could use it every other round, refreshing as a Swift+Standard or Full-Round action, respectively; a Crusader could use it every third round, or every other round if they take Extra Granted Maneuver, refreshing as a Free action - the Crusader and Swordsage would also have to take Martial Study to learn IHS in the first place), and in any case outside of combat would have it readied every (minute, five minutes; I've heard different DMs use different times) or so, depending on how you handle "per encounter" mechanics outside of combat.

Tiki Snakes
2010-09-26, 11:31 PM
So you IHS out of being dead, wait five minutes and IHS off the unconciousness, get up and walk to a hospital. :smallsmile:

Again, assuming you can take an action to activate it whilst unconcious anyway (as your nonlethal hp would have been above your current whilst dead) but I'm pretty sure there are ways to do this. Possibly Psionic ones?

VirOath
2010-09-26, 11:34 PM
Or just flat out being immune to Non-Lethal damage. You ignore the rule as your tally for that damage is always Null.

dgnslyr
2010-09-26, 11:44 PM
Or just flat out being immune to Non-Lethal damage. You ignore the rule as your tally for that damage is always Null.

Which makes my Warforged Warblade all the more deadly. Warforged are automatically inert, which is the same as stable, so none of the bleeding out problem. Thematically appropriate, too.
OBJECTIVE INCOMPLETE
INITIATING CONTINGENCY PROTOCOL

Innis Cabal
2010-09-26, 11:53 PM
Example logic: the sun is in my eyes! Iron Heart Surge to END THE SUN!!

I'd just say "Ok. Your blind. No more sun in your eyes." and be done with it.

Mando Knight
2010-09-26, 11:57 PM
I'd just say "Ok. Your blind. No more sun in your eyes." and be done with it.

IRON HEART SURGE!

I'm no longer blind! (Which actually is an intended use of the maneuver)

dgnslyr
2010-09-27, 12:07 AM
IRON HEART SURGE!

I'm no longer blind! (Which actually is an intended use of the maneuver)

But IHS requires the condition to have a duration measured in rounds, unless the duration in question is your lifespan, which is a way people use IHS to do silly things. Now that I think about it, how do you measure the duration of death?

Arts.Edge
2010-09-27, 12:13 AM
Well, you count the rounds from the time they died to the time they come back to life... I guess IHS could only end death if the person was already "fated" to be raised. Time paradox!

Innis Cabal
2010-09-27, 12:17 AM
IRON HEART SURGE!

I'm no longer blind! (Which actually is an intended use of the maneuver)

Blind as in your eyes disappear. That's not a condition. That is an effect.

dgnslyr
2010-09-27, 12:20 AM
Blind as in your eyes disappear. That's not a condition. That is an effect.

Blinded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded) is defined as being unable to see. You can't see if you have no eyes. It's not different from any other kind of blindness.

Innis Cabal
2010-09-27, 12:38 AM
But it still doesn't have a duration. So it's moot that it's covered by the rules as a condition. You lose your eyes literally. There's no time when you get them back.

VirOath
2010-09-27, 12:49 AM
But you aren't blinded anymore when you die, and since any measure of time can be measured in rounds (Though likely needing scientific notation to do so) you can IHS out of the blindness. If you say he doesn't get back his eyes, then he can somehow see without eyes.

Seriously, it's a good, strong boost, but it's no where near the cheese that a single core spell can produce.

And if you are going off of anything that isn't stated time in rounds, then you couldn't IHS out of most poisons.

Innis Cabal
2010-09-27, 12:58 AM
Except you can't see without your eyes and that's not how it works. His blindness doesn't have a duration even if you make everything into rounds. So he can't get his eyes back. So...no...it doesn't work that way. You'd have to cast regenerate to get them back.

Death is not a duration. And even if it is, you -STILL- can't see when your dead. So blindness does not in fact end when you die. It keeps right on trucking.

Postmodernist
2010-09-27, 02:43 AM
unfortunately modern analytical metaphysics hasn't really seen fit to publish on D&D.

We could go continental here. "I'm suffering! IRON HEART SURGE the human condition!"

Koury
2010-09-27, 02:52 AM
Except you can't see without your eyes and that's not how it works.

Is that actually a rule? I know you can close your eyes and be effectively Blinded, but are eyes actually required to see? I mean, not having eyes would make you unable to close them and blind yourself, I suppose, but is there anything saying "You can't see if you have no eyes"?

For the record, I'm just being silly.

Eldan
2010-09-27, 04:13 AM
There's a simple house rule. "Ask your DM if you can Iron Heart Surge a given condition. Don't annoy him with asking too often."
As a rule of thumb: "If a comic book or action movie hero could end it by shouting, gritting his teeth and flexing his muscles, it works."

VirOath
2010-09-27, 04:36 AM
There's a simple house rule. "Ask your DM if you can Iron Heart Surge a given condition. Don't annoy him with asking too often."
As a rule of thumb: "If a comic book or action movie hero could end it by shouting, gritting his teeth and flexing his muscles, it works."

Bing, Wolverine. It works :smallbiggrin:

Oslecamo
2010-09-27, 04:45 AM
As a rule of thumb: "If a comic book or action movie hero could end it by shouting, gritting his teeth and flexing his muscles, it works."

Horrible horrible rule when the player picks up his stack of anime/manga and starts laughing maniacally:

-Negima: Shattering dimensions by flexing your muscles
-TTGL: summoning giant/colossal/galaxy-throwing robots by gritting their teeths to end ancient super-advanced races.
-Romance of the Three Kingdoms: Killing oponents by shouting to end their lifes.

And yes, even if you just limit me to western media I'll still get equally ridiculous stuff with some digging. :smalltongue:

Eldan
2010-09-27, 05:11 AM
Okay, true. That's why it's rule of thumb and not RAW :smalltongue: Also, you still have to ask the DM.

I'd be willing to let summon players mecha as long as they are on Limbo or the ethereal plane and invest a belief point*, though.

*House rule I stole from Planewalker. Spend a point to make things happen. Roleplay something cool to get one.

DarkEternal
2010-09-27, 11:15 AM
Maybe I just house ruled it, but I pretty much, from the wording ruled it like this:

It cancels an effect targetting YOU. So, if you are in the middle of an Antimagic field, it will cancel the said field's effect on YOU. It will still be there. And unless you move out of the said field, since the execution is a standard action, on the next turn, you'll again be in the field.

Also, you can't really break any paralysis-domination and stuff that you are under since you are not in control of your actions. Blindness-fatigue, various poisons and debuffs(not sure about level drains though), hell even insanity(if you roll that you are in control of your actions on the dice) can be dispelled by this. It's a good maneuver, certainly, but hardly so overpowered, or at least I made such a ruling in my own campaigns.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-27, 11:50 AM
Maybe I just house ruled it, but I pretty much, from the wording ruled it like this:

It cancels an effect targetting YOU. So, if you are in the middle of an Antimagic field, it will cancel the said field's effect on YOU. It will still be there. And unless you move out of the said field, since the execution is a standard action, on the next turn, you'll again be in the field.

Also, you can't really break any paralysis-domination and stuff that you are under since you are not in control of your actions. Blindness-fatigue, various poisons and debuffs(not sure about level drains though), hell even insanity(if you roll that you are in control of your actions on the dice) can be dispelled by this. It's a good maneuver, certainly, but hardly so overpowered, or at least I made such a ruling in my own campaigns.

That makes it pretty close to useless though. If it's a standard action to cancel an effect for one turn that'll just come back next turn, there's no point in doing it...the AMF is still there, so by precendent is the poison in your veins or the magical blindness spell. IHS is supposed to be Conan the Barbarian flexing his mighty thewes and shouting "By Crom!" to break the evil wizard's hypnosis spell, or purging the giant snake monster's venom out of his body by force of will. Not Conan IHS-ing every morning to solve the problem of not having gone to sleep last night. It shouldn't be able to dispel an AMF, but IHSing should allow you to just ignore the effects of the AMF for as long as you're inside it - that'd be powerful without being broken (especially since we're discussing a melee warrior here) without making it a "waste your turn" ability.

DarkEternal
2010-09-27, 12:00 PM
That makes it pretty close to useless though. If it's a standard action to cancel an effect for one turn that'll just come back next turn, there's no point in doing it...the AMF is still there, so by precendent is the poison in your veins or the magical blindness spell. IHS is supposed to be Conan the Barbarian flexing his mighty thewes and shouting "By Crom!" to break the evil wizard's hypnosis spell, or purging the giant snake monster's venom out of his body by force of will. Not Conan IHS-ing every morning to solve the problem of not having gone to sleep last night. It shouldn't be able to dispel an AMF, but IHSing should allow you to just ignore the effects of the AMF for as long as you're inside it - that'd be powerful without being broken (especially since we're discussing a melee warrior here) without making it a "waste your turn" ability.

But it does dispel whatever you want from him. It does not dispel the area in which it was cast. Whatever was cast on him, is dispelled. The AMF part was just an example of an area effect. Same thing could be said with Kill Cloud or something else. It makes Conan pissed off and makes it so that all the poison leaves his system for the 6 seconds and brings him back to full power. Now, if he's not completely in his berserker rage, Conan will leave the cloud area and will remain unschathed. However, if he remains the entire round within the cloud, yelling and hollering and not moving an inch, the following round he will again lose his constitution(however, starting from the start, not resuming from where it left off).

Saph
2010-09-27, 12:01 PM
There have been various attempted rewrites of Iron Heart Surge to make the damn thing make sense. It's harder than it sounds because no one can completely agree on what the maneuver should be able to do in the first place.

Here's my personal rewrite, that I use in my games:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

IRON HEART SURGE
Iron Heart (Boost)
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

When you use this maneuver, you may choose one condition from the list below which is currently affecting you. That condition is removed immediately. You also surge with vengeance and confidence against your foes, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Iron Heart Surge can remove the following conditions: Blinded, Charmed, Confused, Cowering, Cursed, Dazed, Dazzled, Deafened, Diseased, Dominated, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Frightened, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralysed, Petrified, Poisoned, Shaken, Sickened, Stunned. It can also remove any effect that gives a penalty to your ability scores or saving throws (such as ray of enfeeblement), reduces your speed or actions per round (such as slow) or imposes mental control (such as suggestion).

At the DM's option, Iron Heart Surge can also remove any unusual condition in line with those listed above.

Unlike other maneuvers, you may use Iron Heart Surge even when one of the above conditions would otherwise prevent you from using a standard action.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The idea of this fix is to bring IHS in line with the rest of D&D by linking it to a concept which actually exists in the rules, namely the list of conditions (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm) in the SRD. I haven't tried to rules-lawyer-proof it, though.

Urpriest
2010-09-27, 12:10 PM
We could go continental here. "I'm suffering! IRON HEART SURGE the human condition!"

This brings up an interesting point. How would Derrida read Tome of Battle?

SurlySeraph
2010-09-27, 12:27 PM
@^: Pretentiously.

Oslecamo
2010-09-27, 12:49 PM
...reduces your speed or actions per round
...
I haven't tried to rules-lawyer-proof it, though.

{{scrubbed}} a warblade could stand back up after being killed with your version. Heck you could chop him into pieces and take his soul and he could still IHS his way out of it. Also tied up/shackled? IHS!

Even whitout extremes, warblade dip becomes a MUST HAVE for any non-caster, because shrugging off everything but death is just that good. Casters will pick martial study if they aren't willing to pay a CL.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-09-27, 12:50 PM
IRON HEART SURGE
Iron Heart (Boost)
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

When you use this maneuver, you may choose one condition from the list below which is currently affecting you. That condition is removed immediately. You also surge with vengeance and confidence against your foes, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Iron Heart Surge can remove the following conditions: Blinded, Charmed, Confused, Cowering, Cursed, Dazed, Dazzled, Deafened, Diseased, Dominated, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Frightened, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralysed, Petrified, Poisoned, Shaken, Sickened, Stunned. It can also remove any effect that gives a penalty to your ability scores or saving throws (such as ray of enfeeblement), reduces your speed or actions per round (such as slow) or imposes mental control (such as suggestion).

At the DM's option, Iron Heart Surge can also remove any unusual condition in line with those listed above.

Unlike other maneuvers, you may use Iron Heart Surge even when one of the above conditions would otherwise prevent you from using a standard action.


This. This is how Iron Heart Surge should be. Roughly, anyway. Exactly what it seems to have been designed to do, and unable to be cheesed to put out the sun through weasel-wording the definition of condition.

For the record, if I were planning to use Iron Heart Surge to put out the sun (or any other use that it should not have, but I like the "put out the sun" one) I would do it like this:

Define effect/condition: Condition: Sun is shining on world. Personally affected by condition: Yes, standing out of doors without cover. Duration of sun shining on world: X rounds, where X is the number of rounds until the sun runs out of fuel. Iron Heart Surge to end condition: Sun is shining on world. Result of maneuver: Sun is extinguished to end condition: Sun is shining on world.

Shpadoinkle
2010-09-27, 01:02 PM
Iron Heart Surge can remove the following conditions: Blinded, Charmed, Confused, Cowering, Cursed, Dazed, Dazzled, Deafened, Diseased, Dominated, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Frightened, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralysed, Petrified, Poisoned, Shaken, Sickened, Stunned. It can also remove any effect that gives a penalty to your ability scores or saving throws (such as ray of enfeeblement), reduces your speed or actions per round (such as slow) or imposes mental control (such as suggestion).

Nitpick: No, it can't affect the bolded conditions. IHS is a standard action, and all of these prevent the afflicted creature from taking standard actions.

Even if IHS were a free or move-equivalant action, it still wouldn't be able to dispel those conditions because you have to be able to move freely to initiate any maneuvers.

Urpriest
2010-09-27, 01:06 PM
Nitpick: No, it can't affect the bolded conditions. IHS is a standard action, and all of these prevent the afflicted creature from taking standard actions.

Even if IHS were a free or move-equivalant action, it still wouldn't be able to dispel those conditions because you have to be able to move freely to initiate any maneuvers.

Read the last line in the description.

lsfreak
2010-09-27, 01:10 PM
I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but it should be noted that the really ridiculous stuff comes from FAQ, which states that IHS ends the entire condition. Without that ruling, it's ambiguous as to whether it ends the effect for everyone or just for you, and I think without knowing the FAQ's ruling, most sane DM's would choose to have it only end the part that effects the character.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-27, 01:25 PM
My personal opinion is that it should be really obvious what things can, and cannot, be IHS'd during play. IHS is an excellent example of something that works well in practice if everyone is sensible, but is extremely difficult to write such that the RAW works as intended. Too specific and it doesn't do what it should; too vague (as it is) and it starts affecting things it shouldn't or being generally unclear.

Mostly, I sympathize with Wizards on this one. It's not well written, but it's a great idea and I honestly have trouble imagining it being written in such a way as to work as intended. I'm all for having fun with RAW shenanigans, but IHS isn't really great for RAW as the RAW itself is hard to pin down.

Jayabalard
2010-09-27, 01:43 PM
But you aren't blinded anymore when you dieWhy not? Is there something that says that condition ends when you die?

Postmodernist
2010-09-27, 01:52 PM
This brings up an interesting point. How would Derrida read Tome of Battle?

He'd probably do exactly what the everyone here is doing: point out the internal contradictions and oppositions upon which the supposed meaning of the text is founded. Since Tome of Battle is not a discrete whole, it contains contradictory meanings, therefore multiple interpretations are possible.

Then again, he's dead, so his reading might be lacking.

Rhuadin
2010-09-27, 03:30 PM
Then again, he's dead, so his reading might be lacking.

Too bad he doesn't have IHS, or he could fix that. ;)

Fax Celestis
2010-09-27, 04:02 PM
By RAW, conditions don't exist, therefor you can't use that function of Iron Heart Surge.

ORLY (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm). I mean, sure, they're easy to miss, but they are right there.

In my games, I alter IHS so that it can end any affect causing a condition listed on that page (plus immobilized, since that was released later) except dead, dying, grappling, and stable. I require it to utilize a standard action, but also allow it to be usable even if you don't currently have a standard action via consuming your next full-round action.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-27, 04:58 PM
Were I to run a game, I think I'd say "You may use Iron Heart Surge at any time in which you would have a Standard Action if not for the effect you're ending with Iron Heart Surge. Once used, you get your turn, sans one Standard Action."

Roderick_BR
2010-09-27, 07:41 PM
Example logic: the sun is in my eyes! Iron Heart Surge to END THE SUN!!
Except that the sun is not a "temporary effect", but permanent, therefore not affected by IHS. Unless you wanna talk about how long a sun lives, and all that stuff. Still a reasonable example of the mispelling of the maneuver.

Also, death is not temporary. Yes, you can rise a character thus "removing" this "effect", but it's permanent until you do.

Hmm... that means that you can't use a IHS to remove a ghoul's paralysis touch...


But yes, a DM can just state that "effect" means the current effect on the character, not the source, and still remain RAW.

A good example would be Glitter Dust. A character can IHS the blind and anti-invisibility effects away, but everyone else is still being affected as normal, since the spell still exists.

Tiki Snakes
2010-09-27, 11:06 PM
Except that the sun is not a "temporary effect", but permanent, therefore not affected by IHS. Unless you wanna talk about how long a sun lives, and all that stuff. Still a reasonable example of the mispelling of the maneuver.

Also, death is not temporary. Yes, you can rise a character thus "removing" this "effect", but it's permanent until you do.



That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
Emphasis mine.

See Also (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/stars/death/index.shtml)

Anyone like to divide 4 billion years into rounds? That's when the Sun runs out of Hydrogen. :smallwink:

Benly
2010-09-27, 11:25 PM
In my games, I alter IHS so that it can end any affect causing a condition listed on that page (plus immobilized, since that was released later) except dead, dying, grappling, and stable. I require it to utilize a standard action, but also allow it to be usable even if you don't currently have a standard action via consuming your next full-round action.

I would personally let it break a grapple, since roaring with mighty manly effort and hurling off the tiny men trying to hold you down is sufficiently metal that I suspect it fits within the intended milieu.

I would also let players end Stabilized by making a roar of effort and bashing their head against a rock until they start bleeding again.

Gralamin
2010-09-27, 11:39 PM
Anyone like to divide 4 billion years into rounds? That's when the Sun runs out of Hydrogen. :smallwink:

Roughly 2.10384 × 10^16 rounds