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jywu98
2010-09-26, 09:13 PM
Does anybody know a good battle sorcerer gestalt?

Thurbane
2010-09-26, 09:24 PM
As most anyone here will tell you, Battle Sorcerer is very poor compared to normal Sorc. In gestalt, you can get all the benefits that BS gets (better BAB, better HD) from the other class you gestalt with. The only thing you don't get is armored casting - but there is a PrC in Cityscape that can help you with that.

As for the other side, I like Binder....or maybe Bard, or Paladin.

The Rabbler
2010-09-26, 09:26 PM
crusader is fun.

Dark_Juggernaut
2010-09-26, 09:45 PM
Paladin/Sorc is the no brainer for a melee sorcerer.

I have a build for a gestalt sorc/pal eldritch knight with a couple monk levels and uses vow of poverty and arcane strike that's alot of fun in combat, but out of combat you're a lawful good so, it has to be the kindof roleplay you're into.

NineThePuma
2010-09-26, 10:03 PM
Just FYI, he needs to have a Non-Spell/Maneuver/Power using complimentary class.

I recommend Spell-less Ranger with Favored Enemy (Undead) =P

Dark_Juggernaut
2010-09-26, 11:31 PM
Just FYI, he needs to have a Non-Spell/Maneuver/Power using complimentary class.

Why? Are you in the game he needs this character for and there's more rules from his DM or something...?

Soranar
2010-09-27, 12:06 AM
Battle sorcerer gestalt

first, I'd suggest taking the stalwart sorcerer on top on battle sorcerer (+2 hitpoints/level + a weapon focus is pretty nice and you won't get much spellcasting anyway)

you now have medium BAB with d8+2 hitpoints /level

fighting classes (anything with high BAB and hitpoints) wouldn't gain anything from it (instead of taking regular sorcerer which would always be better)

normal cleric or druid would gain some spellcasting (poor choice)

rogue would gain some hitpoints, but again a normal sorcerer would be better

(poor choice)


a cloistered cleric would gain BAB and hitpoints

so cloistered cleric would be good (you'd also gain a lot of skillpoints from it)
a warlock would gain a lot from it too (access to better PrCs, some key spells he just wouldn't access normally, hitpoints) all in all you could become a very potent glaivelock and still wear light armor

synergy wise, glaivelock would work well

power wise, a cloistered cleric would be best (access to nearly all spells + some arcane to fill in the gaps)

Kylarra
2010-09-27, 12:12 AM
In a gestalt, there's almost no reason to use one of the sorcerer ACFs for better hp and such.

dgnslyr
2010-09-27, 12:18 AM
I second Paladin/Sorceror. CHA to saves is delicious. You won't need THAT much WIS, just enough for the paladin's meagerly few spells. Battle Blessings lets you cast paladin spells as a swift action, so it doesn't hurt your action economy too much. Sword of the Arcane Order lets you cast wizard/sorceror spells out of paladin slots, so I guess it's like a free Quickened spell every turn. I'm sure somebody can figure out how to make this more obscene.

Thurbane
2010-09-27, 12:31 AM
Just FYI, he needs to have a Non-Spell/Maneuver/Power using complimentary class.

I recommend Spell-less Ranger with Favored Enemy (Undead) =P
In that case, I'd say CC non-casting Paladin Variant...

NineThePuma
2010-09-27, 01:19 AM
Why? Are you in the game he needs this character for and there's more rules from his DM or something...?

That's it exactly. Zombie game, 6th level. I plan to play nicely

Jack_Simth
2010-09-27, 07:33 AM
That's it exactly. Zombie game, 6th level. I plan to play nicelyAh... so I shouldn't suggest a Sorcerer-6//Monk-3/Paladin-3 (Monk-1/Paladin-2/Monk+2/Paladin+1), taking Ascetic Mage (6th) and Ascetic Knight (3rd), keeping Monk and Paladin levels balanced on level-up, then?

Of course, with a Zombie horde game, you might strongly consider a few of the reserve feats....

Myth
2010-09-27, 08:28 AM
For an Undead game I'd always go Cleric of Sun Deity / Radiant Servant on one side and Crusader on the other. DMM buff yourself, and make hordes of low level undead go *poof* with Greater Turning. You'd also be a melee monster with Crusader + clerical buffs.

NineThePuma
2010-09-27, 08:49 AM
Turning was one of the rules the OP wanted taken out. Plus I'm giving everything turn resistance anyways.

Quietus
2010-09-27, 08:51 AM
I'd just like to point out that all a Sorcerer gets from Battle Sorcerer is a better BAB and more HP - stuff that he could get from the other side of his gestalt anyway. Just go with regular sorcerer, you'll have better results in the long run.

Dark_Juggernaut
2010-09-27, 05:20 PM
I've got a feeling the OP wasn't referencing the alternative class, but just a gestalt that includes sorcerer and melee.

Da Beast
2010-09-27, 06:12 PM
Ranger is a simple and useful Gestalt for any full caster. 6 skill points per level, d8 HD, full BAB, all good saves and some other useful abilities. Favored enemy is particularly good when you know most of the campaign will be against one or two kinds of enemies. Otherwise paladin would be a good choice, especially if you dip some other classes that give you charisma to various things. If everything has turn resistance you may as well pick up some divine feats to burn turn attempts for charisma related buffs.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-27, 06:13 PM
Knight! Cha-centric features, full BAB, d12 HD, save backing...

John Cribati
2010-09-27, 06:17 PM
Monk

Wait, actually, I'm kind of serious. Good save progression, no real need for a weapon; you've got your fists. Spell resistance, Wisdom to Armor Class.

But only for a few levels. 5 max.

Then just go for something like Cleric.

NineThePuma
2010-09-27, 06:25 PM
*vaguely amused that people don't listen to what conditions I specified*

I'd think that Wizard/Swashbuckler wouldn't been mentioned.

Icewraith
2010-09-27, 06:28 PM
If you don't like paladin:

Hexblade 3 Rogue 2

Or: Rogue 1 Monk2 Hexblade 3 Rogue continued. Burn 1 feat to get your cha to AC with monk and sorcerer.

This is better for a spellcastery sorcerer with good defenses. As others have said, don't take the battle sorc variant, you can get those benefits + more from your gestalt. Assuming your dm oks the build and feats, you end up with +cha to saves vs spells, +cha to AC, evasion, and mettle. You also gain the starting good save at least once. The BAB isn't full like it would be with a paladin though.

To basically play a near-full BAB nymph, monk 2/paladin X on your other side. Evasion but no mettle, BAB = Class Levels -1, and the paladin should be good in an undead campaign.

mabriss lethe
2010-09-27, 06:43 PM
Why not a Binderbarian? (half joking, half serious)

-d12 HD
-Good Fort/Will saves
-Rage for squishing
-Vestige granted abilities work perfectly while raging, unlike spells.
-Many vestige abilities are passive and require no action at all.
-Charisma is very useful if you're using abilities that require a save, but it's easy to cherry pick your powers if you don't have the stats. also Save DCs are mostly based on Binder level. (10+1/2 Binder level+Charisma mod) and unlike spells, not fixed by effect level. Less powerful save vs. suck abilities still function at higher levels.

Myth
2010-09-27, 06:50 PM
Can't someone do a nice Sorcerer/Bard+Sublme Chord for the OP? I have to have access to the books to do it myself, i'm fuzzy on Sublime Chord in particular.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-27, 06:55 PM
Monk

Wait, actually, I'm kind of serious. Good save progression, no real need for a weapon; you've got your fists. Spell resistance, Wisdom to Armor Class.

But only for a few levels. 5 max.

Then just go for something like Cleric.

It's a Zombie horde game though. Depending on house rules regarding infection, this could very well be a gauge-breaker on the scale of 0 to Bad Idea.:smallcool:

Fax Celestis
2010-09-27, 07:10 PM
It's a Zombie horde game though. Depending on house rules regarding infection, this could very well be a gauge-breaker on the scale of 0 to Bad Idea.:smallcool:

Well, if they're plague zombies, then you really want paladin for divine health.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-27, 07:29 PM
Heh, yes. Let's see... a Human Sorcerer-6//Paladin-3/Monk-3.

Feats....
1: Precocious Apprentice (Scorching Ray)
HB: Fiery Burst
3: Ascetic Mage
6: Ascetic Knight

What's he do?

Standard: Hit the infinite horde of zombies with Fiery Burst (from 30-foot range) as soon as they close to within range.
Move: Get away from the zombies! (40 foot move - if they're MM stock human zombies, they can't keep up).

Spells....
3rd: Fireball (to power Fiery Burst - don't cast it normally, and NEVER cast your last one)
2nd: Invisibility, Wings of Cover (Races of the Dragon) (Note: Traded out Scorching Ray at 6th... unless Precocious Apprentice actually grants an extra spell KNOWN, of course)
1st: Shield, Mage Armor, Unseen Servant, and... Obscuring Mist
0th: Eh, whatever.

Stat priorities: Cha (by a lot), Dex (going first helps), Con, Rest.
Magic Items: Anything that boosts Charisma, plus utility effects.

jywu98
2010-09-27, 07:42 PM
Thanks guys. I think I might go with a normal sorcerer//monk gestalt with the vow of poverty.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-27, 07:52 PM
Incarnate goes well with everything in gestalt.
It's like
1) pick a class
2) become more awesome at it.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-27, 07:54 PM
Thanks guys. I think I might go with a normal sorcerer//monk gestalt with the vow of poverty.

Arglbarglblargl noooo...in the name of Yog-Sothoth, please don't take VoP unless you're expecting the party to be significantly behind on WBL at all times (at least 50%). No matter what character you are, it's shooting yourself in the foot - at least with a spellcaster, you're using a small-caliber bullet for the shooting.

SurlySeraph
2010-09-27, 08:03 PM
Monk

Wait, actually, I'm kind of serious. Good save progression, no real need for a weapon; you've got your fists. Spell resistance, Wisdom to Armor Class.

But only for a few levels. 5 max.

Then just go for something like Cleric.

Enlightened Fist on one side, Divine Fist on the other could be interesting. But you'd want to take the Ascetic Mage ACF to make your monk features Cha-based, and probably go Favored Soul rather than cleric.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-27, 08:05 PM
Arglbarglblargl noooo...in the name of Yog-Sothoth, please don't take VoP unless you're expecting the party to be significantly behind on WBL at all times (at least 50%). No matter what character you are, it's shooting yourself in the foot - at least with a spellcaster, you're using a small-caliber bullet for the shooting.
Well... the relative power of the Vow of Poverty is DM and campaign-dependent (like a lot of things). A few things that boost it:

1) Lack of downtime (common in Zombie games: you don't need to worry about shopping, crafting, identifying items safely, et cetera)
2) Low treasure values (common in Zombie games: if everyone's below 50% of WBL anyway, you end up coming out ahead).
3) Common anti-item effects (Disjunction, chained dispel magic targeting items, Sundering, theft, et cetera - not really expected here: the Supernatural vow is pretty much immune to all this... although an Antimagic Ray (Spell Compendium) becomes even more dangerous for you)

(Obviously, anything that negates or opposes the above also makes the Vow of Poverty weaker, relatively speaking).

Dark_Juggernaut
2010-09-27, 08:09 PM
Arglbarglblargl noooo...in the name of Yog-Sothoth, please don't take VoP unless you're expecting the party to be significantly behind on WBL at all times (at least 50%). No matter what character you are, it's shooting yourself in the foot - at least with a spellcaster, you're using a small-caliber bullet for the shooting.

I don't see why that's so bad if the character is going to be a gish. I've run a few gishes with vow of poverty and they've all been great. The only time it becomes a problem is when you're with a DM that doles out loot like candy, in which case you're going to fall behind a little.

Contrary to optimizing beliefs, a caster CAN be productive without metamagic wands ect. Plus it makes the character slightly more balanced than a game breaking T1.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-27, 08:30 PM
Well... the relative power of the Vow of Poverty is DM and campaign-dependent (like a lot of things). A few things that boost it:

1) Lack of downtime (common in Zombie games: you don't need to worry about shopping, crafting, identifying items safely, et cetera)
2) Low treasure values (common in Zombie games: if everyone's below 50% of WBL anyway, you end up coming out ahead).
3) Common anti-item effects (Disjunction, chained dispel magic targeting items, Sundering, theft, et cetera - not really expected here: the Supernatural vow is pretty much immune to all this... although an Antimagic Ray (Spell Compendium) becomes even more dangerous for you)

(Obviously, anything that negates or opposes the above also makes the Vow of Poverty weaker, relatively speaking).

Those are fair points, admittedly. My anti-VoP reflex is just so incredibly ingrained at this point.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-27, 08:41 PM
I don't see why that's so bad if the character is going to be a gish. I've run a few gishes with vow of poverty and they've all been great. The only time it becomes a problem is when you're with a DM that doles out loot like candy, in which case you're going to fall behind a little.

Contrary to optimizing beliefs, a caster CAN be productive without metamagic wands ect. Plus it makes the character slightly more balanced than a game breaking T1.

A naked wizard is already a game breaking T1 :p As far as full casters go VoP is a pretty minor loss.
ANYWAY.
My second suggestion to gestalting Incarnate is gestalting Dragon Shaman.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-27, 08:43 PM
A naked wizard is already a game breaking T1 :p As far as full casters go VoP is a pretty minor loss.

Not really. A lot of really nice spells have expensive components or foci.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-27, 08:45 PM
Which can be owned by your partners, which brings lame loopholes around.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-27, 08:50 PM
Which can be owned by your partners, which brings lame loopholes around.


Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use an material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magic properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of an sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on you behalf - you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not, however, borrow a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion fit even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from scroll, wand, or staff.
Using a focus or a material component sounds like using a material possession to me, and it doesn't fit into any of the exemptions.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-27, 08:52 PM
Thanks guys. I think I might go with a normal sorcerer//monk gestalt with the vow of poverty.

Read this before you even THINK about taking Vow of Poverty. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9203.0)



A naked wizard is already a game breaking T1 :p As far as full casters go VoP is a pretty minor loss.

VoP Wizards have no way of preparing spells without 3rd Party Sources.


VoP is a trap. Big time.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-27, 08:54 PM
Using a focus or a material component sounds like using a material possession to me, and it doesn't fit into any of the exemptions.


OTHER RAMIFICATIONS OF POVERTY
A character who has forsaken material possessions may find himself at a marked disadvantage when it comes to certain necessary expenses, such as expensive material components. One option is for ascetic characters to beg components from other party members, who are probably gaining as much benefit from having the spell cast as the caster is. Alternatively, an ascetic spellcaster can sacrifice experience points in place of expensive components, with 1 XP equivalent to 5 gp value of components. Voluntary Poverty gives you two options, which conflicts with the Vow wording yet is the section dedicated to the vow itself.

Marnath
2010-09-27, 08:59 PM
You can tattoo spell pages on your body, you know. Those have no value since you can't sell a tattoo. Although you might need to borrow a mirror to use your backside. ^.^

Or just play sorceror. They aren't as powerful but they don't need spellbooks, and VoP is one situation where that actually matters.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-27, 09:01 PM
You can tattoo spell pages on your body, you know. Those have no value since you can't sell a tattoo. Although you might need to borrow a mirror to use your backside. ^.^

Or just play sorceror. They aren't as powerful but they don't need spellbooks, and VoP is one situation where that actually matters.

No, you cannot. It costs the same price to tattoo the spells as it does to scribe them into a book. Guess what doing that violates?


And again, VoP on any caster that isn't a Druid, Psion, or Ardent is a bad idea.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-27, 09:01 PM
Voluntary Poverty gives you two options, which conflicts with the Vow wording yet is the section dedicated to the vow itself.

Voluntary poverty includes Vow of Poverty, not the opposite.

Kylarra
2010-09-27, 09:02 PM
VoP Wizards have no way of preparing spells without 3rd Party Sources.Eidetic Spellcaster. Done. :smalltongue:

Marnath
2010-09-27, 09:03 PM
No, you cannot. It costs the same price to tattoo the spells as it does to scribe them into a book. Guess what doing that violates?


And again, VoP on any caster that isn't a Druid, Psion, or Ardent is a bad idea.

Obviously the tattoo artist uses materials to scribe it that you had a friend pay for.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-27, 09:03 PM
Voluntary poverty includes Vow of Poverty, not the opposite.

Everything in that section is about the vow.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-27, 09:04 PM
Eidetic Spellcaster. Done. :smalltongue:

Did you not see the 3rd Party disclaimer there? Dragon 357, before WotC bought Dragon from Paizo.


Obviously the tattoo artist uses materials to scribe it that you had a friend pay for.


Still violates the vow because the tattoo is in your possession. Permanently.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-27, 09:04 PM
Everything in that section is about the vow.

No, it is not. The feat's text is about the feat, and it includes specific exemptions to your vow. Foci and components are not one of them.

For clarity's sake: you can have a vow of poverty without taking Vow of Poverty. You cannot take Vow of Poverty without a vow of poverty.

Marnath
2010-09-27, 09:07 PM
Warmage only has like 5 or 6 spells that need expensive components. Eschew Materials the rest.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-27, 09:10 PM
Warmage only has like 5 or 6 spells that need expensive components. Eschew Materials the rest.

That involves playing one of the worst casters there is. Just play a Psion. Same idea, much more effective.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-27, 09:22 PM
Those are fair points, admittedly. My anti-VoP reflex is just so incredibly ingrained at this point.
Eh, to be fair, in a 'normal' campaign (WBL, you can go shopping easily), VoP is a self-nerf.

Dark_Juggernaut
2010-09-27, 09:56 PM
And again, VoP on any caster that isn't a Druid, Psion, or Ardent is a bad idea.

So you're saying that a VoP Sorcerer is COMPLETELY unplayable, terrible, and you're better off playing a fighter.

I'm sorry but playing a caster without expensive material components is NOT that freaking bad. I've done it several times. Just because I'm not able to cast those spells that make T2 and T1 characters so game shattering(which some still aren't expensive) doesn't make my character a bad one.

The OP already has a few rules that reign in their character from being overly optimized, and VoP is good for a build that doesn't rely on delving into every corner of the games' magical items to make insanely wide options and powerful combos available. A Sorcerer with VoP can fly AND shoot. A gestalted Melee Class/Sorcerer with VoP can fly, shoot, and fight. Exactly how horrific can it be?

And before anyone tries to say you fall behind on magical benefits, that only happens when the DM hands out MORE than the loot per level chart, which VoP lines up with fine for 80% of your progression.

Dr.Epic
2010-09-27, 09:59 PM
I would suggest cleric since Mystic Thuerge sorcerer/cleric is a good build in my opinion.

NineThePuma
2010-09-27, 10:12 PM
... *sighs, rubbing eyebrows* Great. Vow of Poverty. He's going to be pissed when the caster zombies show up.

(YAY FOR A LEVEL 18 LICH GESTALTING ASHEN NECROMANCER WITH WIZARD.)

To clarify, he's not the boss, but he sent a lieutenant to the area; other cities are being attacked by other members of his super horde. I'm pretty loose with the plot because I don't expect survival x3

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-27, 10:56 PM
So you're saying that a VoP Sorcerer is COMPLETELY unplayable, terrible, and you're better off playing a fighter.

Nice Strawman. It's so blatant my eyes hurt.

I never said it was unplayable. I said it was a bad idea. Druids, Psions, and Ardents have self-sustaining abilities (both Psion and Ardent can heal ability damage without expensive material components, and the Druid can actually ignore some forms of ability damage). Sorcerers cannot do this so easily (they need to jump through hoops). Druids have the least number of spells with pricey material components (and their holy symbol is/can be food). Ardents and Psions have no material components.


A Sorcerer with VoP can fly AND shoot. A gestalted Melee Class/Sorcerer with VoP can fly, shoot, and fight. Exactly how horrific can it be?

Druids have Summon Nature's Ally, which can provide up to three mobile Circles of Protection, 9 CLW, and 3 CMW. Psions and Ardents have Astral Construct (which is really damn good). Sorcerers have only Summon Monster, of which only levels 3 and 7 are considered all that powerful (1 is used for trapfinding and nothing else).

Druids, Ardents, and Psions are very capable classes for Gestalt. Druids can be either Passive classes or Aggressive classes, and Psionic characters have an amazing action economy if optimized (allowing you to play either Passive or Aggressive much easier). Sorcerers are Aggressive classes, not passive ones (due to Metamagic nerfs inherent to the system).

Finally, Druids and Psions are not very feat-reliant. Ardents may find themselves slightly feat-starved (especially if they take VoP), but it's a metric ton better than the Sorcerer's problem. And Druids can make use of more Exalted feats than the Sorcerer can, making VoP slightly better for them.

Oh, I overlooked Wild Shape and an Animal Companion for the Druid, but that's given.

Regardless, VoP is still a horrid trap. Even a Druid is better off with actual cash. It's actually less than 60% of your WBL. Want proof? +10 Weapon, +5 Tome of X, +5 Manual of Y, and a +10 suit of armor are going to run you (200K+137.5K+137.5K+100K) an approximate 5/7s of your WBL. VoP provides a +5 Weapon, a +10 AC bonus (effectively +2 Full Plate with no Max Dex), and +8/+6/+4/+2 (difficult to price, but for comparison the Belt of Magnificence +6 is +6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6 for 200K), and moderate energy resistance (30K thanks to the MiC).


Do the math. VoP costs you ALL of your WBL, the actual items themselves cost you 5/7s. You've still got 200K to play with. Have fun with the Trap.

Edit:



(YAY FOR A LEVEL 18 LICH GESTALTING ASHEN NECROMANCER WITH WIZARD.)

Yeah, Big 6+Ranger or something is your best bet OP. Forget VoP entirely.

Icewraith
2010-09-27, 11:29 PM
If you go for paladin-monk, unless you take one of the multiclassing feats, START Monk 2 and then go straight Paladin.

Monk 2 picks up the feats, qualifies you for the one-feat cost cha to AC, gets you the x4 starting skill points at highest progression so you can be more versatile and gives you the starting 3 good saves. That's really all you need from monk. After that if you're going to be in melee keep the paladin for high BAB and better HD.

In case people are confused about this and recommend instead going equal paladin/monk, there is no multiclassing-based reason to do this. In gestalt, the starting level 1 class on each side of the progression is considered favored, so you can dip monk 2 and take as many Paladin levels as you want without worrying about an xp penalty. The value of more than 2 monk levels gets more and more debatable compared to what you could be getting with paladin levels (nifty mount, turning levels!!!, you can turn your weak paladin spellcasting into melee feats or keep it for niche spells, better BAB and HD).

Either way you go, I'd avoid wearing armor. Mage armor (and later, Greater mage armor) last a good while, ignore arcane spell failure, and work better against incorporeal threats (I know it's a zombie themed campaign, but there's a very small step from there into a more general undead-themed campaign, so expect Wraiths, Ghosts, or similar), and you won't lose your Cha-to-ac bonus that should make touch spells much less of a worry for you.

If you're having spell selection issues, a runestaff of mage armor + assorted other useful low level spells is cheap cheap cheap. With a runestaff (and assuming you get downtime, it does depend on the campaign), Craft Staff can greatly expand your sorcerer's versatility. If you like, there are also canon examples of various staves that function as different weapons (Off the top of my head, Frostburn has some sort of Ice-themed staff that actually functions as a dagger or sword of some sort, a Greatsword or Maul that works as a staff certainly wouldn't be too far-fetched pending dm approval- esp. since you may want a better bludgeoning weapon for the campaign and a maul is a staff with a knob of iron on the end)

Marnath
2010-09-28, 12:46 AM
That involves playing one of the worst casters there is. Just play a Psion. Same idea, much more effective.

Warmage is not the worst caster there is. Suboptimal maybe, but it's not that bad.

NineThePuma
2010-09-28, 02:46 AM
Remind me to try taking an Adept through a campaign someday. In other mews, almost back up time and I have school in 5 hours. Yay.

I'm heavily recommending Ranger in there somewhere, if only for Favored Enemy.

Dark_Juggernaut
2010-09-28, 04:28 AM
Regardless, VoP is still a horrid trap. Even a Druid is better off with actual cash. It's actually less than 60% of your WBL. Want proof? +10 Weapon, +5 Tome of X, +5 Manual of Y, and a +10 suit of armor are going to run you (200K+137.5K+137.5K+100K) an approximate 5/7s of your WBL. VoP provides a +5 Weapon, a +10 AC bonus (effectively +2 Full Plate with no Max Dex), and +8/+6/+4/+2 (difficult to price, but for comparison the Belt of Magnificence +6 is +6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6 for 200K), and moderate energy resistance (30K thanks to the MiC).


Do the math. VoP costs you ALL of your WBL, the actual items themselves cost you 5/7s. You've still got 200K to play with. Have fun with the Trap.

The math has already been done and you've forgotten alot of things applied to a character with VoP:

Endure Elements
Good aligned weapon
Greater Sustenance
+3 Deflection
+3 Resistance to all saves
+2 Natural Armor
Regeneration
Mind-Shielding
Freedom of Movement
Damage Reduction 10/Evil
Add in the fact that you CAN'T get better than +6 Enh on an item before Epic, you CAN'T get a suit of full plate with no max dex, and 11 exalted feats by 20.
Admittedly most of the Exalted feats you can pick are crap (Purify Spell is pretty awsome and Touch of Golden Ice is pretty dirty early game).

No I don't care if all those things are bonuses you can or can't suplement with spells or you don't care about at all and think they're crap. The fact is they're there, and they equal out your WBL by 20.

One incredibly major factor you continuously ignore on top of all that is the fact that we're talking about a gestalt. It's just JUST a sorcerer, it's a sorcerer with a supplemental melee class gestalted together.

I wouldn't be posting all this if it weren't for the fact that the OP expressed an interest in it themselves. It would be wrong to let them believe the feat is such a poor choice using incorrect data.

Yes you can't pick any of your items, ever. Yes there's tons and tons of awesome items out there to make for a more versatile or powerful character. Believe it or not, many circles consider it an overpowered feat due to how much you get, completely unarmored, as a monk or druid. Druids have to pay allot of extra cash to keep certain items while in wild shape, and in some cases, don't have the option at all.

Your endure elements, regeneration, greater sustenance, resistance to saves, natural armor, Mind-Shielding, energy resistance, freedom of movement, and ability score enhancements all work inside an anti-magic field as they are Extraordinary abilities.

Beorn080
2010-09-28, 05:05 AM
Zombie heavy game? Sorc6/Druid6, and just drop druid casting. At 4th, pick up a dire bat companion. If you aren't allowed to forgo druid casting or they don't like it, switch it to the variant ranger on the SRD that gives fast movement and some wildshape, and pick up natural spell. Flying forms vs hordes seems like an easy choice to me.

NineThePuma
2010-09-28, 09:15 AM
Right up until a spell casting one smacks him outta the sky :smallannoyed:

Beorn080
2010-09-28, 11:43 AM
Right up until a spell casting one smacks him outta the sky :smallannoyed:

Invisible spell

Fly around as a pigeon, and cast spells invisibly. Besides, if there is a spellcasting zombie, the best way to spot it is from the air anyway.