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big teej
2010-09-27, 10:45 AM
greetings members of the playground,

as I have mentioned in many of my more recent threads, I have recenlty taken up the mantle of DM for a group on campus, and they've just made themselves a recurring nemisis

my question is simple (class is about to let out so I must be short)

how much should a recurrin villian scale?

the OOTS method of party level rises = enemy level rises?

something a bit less than that?
more?


more information shall be provided upon request.

Jergmo
2010-09-27, 10:49 AM
The OoTS method of your nemesis gaining a level when you do works - when it's a one on one thing, like with Haley. But for a villain that threatens the whole party, they need to be a few steps ahead to remain relevant. After the first few levels, I'd take a random stab and say that a party-threatener should be 4 levels ahead of the party if they're the big dogs, at least.

Dr.Epic
2010-09-27, 10:53 AM
For every level the party goes up, add a level or two to the villain. Although, a template could also help to boost up said foe and give them a twist: the evil mage that's been defeated by you time and time again decided to become a lich to even the playing field.

Greenish
2010-09-27, 10:56 AM
If the recurring villain is the BBEG, it should start off high, and then level up much slower than the party, if at all (so that as party gets stronger, the power gap shrinks, until they're ready to defeat the enemy who'd previously wiped the floor with them without breaking to sweat).

If it's some other flavour of antagonist (a personal nemesis, a rival, an enigmatic minion, quirky miniboss), staying on the same relative level of power in regards to the PCs for a while sounds okay.

Jack Zander
2010-09-27, 01:46 PM
If starting a level 1 campaign, I like to make my BBEG level 10, and level him up once for every two levels the party gains. Since our campaign rarely go til 20th level they usually are facing a level 13-14 boss at level 8-10. I usually make my villains much more defensive for a long drawn out fight rather than give them awesome attacks that can take out 1 party member a turn.

Another strategy could be to give the villain another ally every few levels so that with each new meeting, the party has leveled up, but the encounters get tougher as the villain adds more friends to his side. Eventually the final fight could be two equal level 4-5 party teams in a grand battle.

big teej
2010-09-27, 02:15 PM
thankyou for the quick replies everyone, I'm sorry, I was in a rush earlier and left out some information that is most likely very crucial to the discussion

it is a 6 man party with NO squishy casters at this time

the recurring villian is a (currently) level 2 necromancer

the 'scale' of threat is meant to be "credible, but more of a recurring thorn in the side" than a BBEG or something similar

the party (currently) consists of (all first level)
a human ranger
an elf rangers
an elf rogue
a dwarf fighter
a human paladin
an elf druid

their actions have provoked this necromancer into becoming a recuring villian (namely beating him with sharp metal objects and then placing him in the town pillory)

so I want him to be a credible threat to the party long term, but never so much so that he attains BBEG or 'campaign focus' status, more along the lines of the turks or koopa jr from paper mario.

a credible threat, but mostly a comical nuisance than anything that will slaugher the party.

*currently has 'a thing' for the paladin


*'a thing' being a burning desire to personally humiliate/destroy after being taunted by him.

Lysander
2010-09-27, 02:25 PM
It's not even metagaming/DM fiat to have a villain level up. Just say that while the PCs are adventuring and gaining experience, he's doing the same.

big teej
2010-09-27, 02:29 PM
It's not even metagaming/DM fiat to have a villain level up. Just say that while the PCs are adventuring and gaining experience, he's doing the same.

I know that :smallconfused:

thats what I'm doing, I'm just curious as to 'how much' he should level in relation to the party being a squishy caster and the party being 1) larger than normal and 2) having no arcane support

2 to 1? 1 to 1? less? more? depends?
what?

Trinoya
2010-09-27, 02:33 PM
I've done a lot of work in regards to this, and to be honest it really depends on the experience of your players and the flavor of your game.

A good rule of thumb is the BBEG should be several levels ahead of the party, I average 5-6, but this depends heavily on party size too. He should never have hit die equal to the total party for example... If you get more players raise the level, if you loose some, have an event lower his level.

That said, the BBEG should have minions, which are excellent ways to scale up to the BBEG and communicate to the party how powerful he is. A primary minion (IE: His right hand) should be 1-3 levels below the BBEG (while being 2-4 levels above the party), with the rest of them descending down from there.

Regardless, if your playing with a fairly new group, keep the BBEG and any associate minions a lot closer to their level... a favorite tactic is to just give them more HP rather than levels... and as the DM you can do that.

big teej
2010-09-27, 02:38 PM
I've done a lot of work in regards to this, and to be honest it really depends on the experience of your players and the flavor of your game.

A good rule of thumb is the BBEG should be several levels ahead of the party, I average 5-6, but this depends heavily on party size too. He should never have hit die equal to the total party for example... If you get more players raise the level, if you loose some, have an event lower his level.

That said, the BBEG should have minions, which are excellent ways to scale up to the BBEG and communicate to the party how powerful he is. A primary minion (IE: His right hand) should be 1-3 levels below the BBEG (while being 2-4 levels above the party), with the rest of them descending down from there.

Regardless, if your playing with a fairly new group, keep the BBEG and any associate minions a lot closer to their level... a favorite tactic is to just give them more HP rather than levels... and as the DM you can do that.

does having the villian being a wizard vs no party wizard affect this rule of thumb any?

3 of the players have 0 experience with the hobby
1 player has 0 experience with the system, but experience with the hobby, I expect him to pick things up quickly
2 players have extensive experience with dnd (though not necessarily 3.x)

given how many threads I've seen about "wizards obliterate everything nya nya nya" I"m hesitatnt to kick up the necromancers levels that much higher than the party.

and yes, minions, what necromancer could call himself such without minions?

Lord Vampyre
2010-09-27, 07:03 PM
Based on what you've said, you should set the villain's level equal to the Paladin's. You can place all of his animosity on the Paladin, since thats the one he has a thing for.

You can use minions to distract the rest of the party while the Necromancer sets about trying to humiliate the Paladin.

Since he's not the campaign focus, your best bet is to just keep him even with the party. If you feel he is starting to outpace the party due to a dispartity of Tier ratings then I would probably even have him be a couple of levels lower than the party just to even the playing field.

big teej
2010-09-27, 08:22 PM
Based on what you've said, you should set the villain's level equal to the Paladin's. You can place all of his animosity on the Paladin, since thats the one he has a thing for.

You can use minions to distract the rest of the party while the Necromancer sets about trying to humiliate the Paladin.

Since he's not the campaign focus, your best bet is to just keep him even with the party. If you feel he is starting to outpace the party due to a dispartity of Tier ratings then I would probably even have him be a couple of levels lower than the party just to even the playing field.

this sounds like a very workable plan.

which leads to a question that I am sure has been addressed by the forum a few gazillion times

how to keep recurring villians.... recurring/contingencies/etc.

but thats a topic for another thread I believe.

Gray Mage
2010-09-27, 08:22 PM
Let he be around the party level or maybe a little lower, but give him some undead minions. Try to improve the minions with either new races of skeletons/zombies, new types of undead or templates. Also, if you're afraid of giving him more levels in mage and aren't of some retconning, I suggest you take a look at Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror, it's a great class for necromancers with minions without being overpowered.

big teej
2010-09-27, 09:04 PM
Let he be around the party level or maybe a little lower, but give him some undead minions. Try to improve the minions with either new races of skeletons/zombies, new types of undead or templates. Also, if you're afraid of giving him more levels in mage and aren't of some retconning, I suggest you take a look at Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror, it's a great class for necromancers with minions without being overpowered.

my current resources are the DND wiki, and the DMG.

I don't use anything I don't have the book for, but I appreciate the suggestion

Gray Mage
2010-09-27, 10:02 PM
my current resources are the DND wiki, and the DMG.

I don't use anything I don't have the book for, but I appreciate the suggestion

You should take a look at crystalkeep then. In the D&D 3.5 section they have some nice skeleton templates.

Darcand
2010-09-28, 12:38 AM
I use the "He doesn't leave until something cool happens" rule. Regular monsters I run straight out of the book, but real villians I just set their stats where I feel they should fall to be effective, give them a list of abilities independent of class or level, and the fight stops after either the BBEG gets to do something cool or the PCs do, often regardless of actual damage dealt.

And if a PC pulls off a really awesome attack, then that is what kills him.

Trinoya
2010-09-28, 04:40 AM
does having the villian being a wizard vs no party wizard affect this rule of thumb any?

This plays a factor, but I would also take into account his personality first. (For example: Maybe he wastes all those fifth level spells on useless shiny over the top illusions and conjuration spells to feed his own hedonism).



3 of the players have 0 experience with the hobby
1 player has 0 experience with the system, but experience with the hobby, I expect him to pick things up quickly
2 players have extensive experience with dnd (though not necessarily 3.x)



A low 3.x experience level means you should keep the level closer to the PCs, many people won't expect, for example, illusionary based traps, utilizing stone shape to imprison someone, etc... as such it'd be better to forgo more exotic stuff and, by extension, bring his level closer.


given how many threads I've seen about "wizards obliterate everything nya nya nya" I"m hesitatnt to kick up the necromancers levels that much higher than the party.

The true power of a wizard isn't in what spells he can cast on the party to destroy them (anyone can do a fireballs worth of damage with enough time). It's how he can effectively have battle control while his minions destroy his foes. I've played wizards that, more often than night, utilize magic based on their own personalities, and I'd recommend you do that with this wizard. Even a level 1 wizard can kill a god, even a level 1 fighter can become one... at the end of the day, it's not the size that counts, it's how you use it. ^_^



and yes, minions, what necromancer could call himself such without minions?

Ah a necromancer. Odds are, presuming he is built for combat, he'd be opening up with a touch of idiocy trap maximized and empowered (possibly suddenly if he had the feats to spare) to knock out any party wizard or cleric anyway (and you told me they had no wizard)...

That said.. I'm thinking this guy needs a two level difference from your PCs... I'd give him 75% of his starting gold and a good number low level minions, with most likely two mid level and only one high. His lair shouldn't be too oversized and his plan should be thwarted not by his death (since you were wondering how to keep him reoccurring) but the death of one of his minions (during say the ritual he was doing to obtain whatever it is he wishes to obtain).

As the PCs defeat that first boss (and odds are they had to go through a good number of minions to do it) they turn to fight the BBEG who complains about his defeat... and engages them in a breif duel. The moment the PCs have him at half health or lower (or even if they just deal a quarter of his health in damage depending on his level and their equipment) have him retreat, vowing revenge...


When next the PCs meet him, make sure the town they meet him in loves him.. perhaps he prevented the dam from breaking, or saved orphans from a fire (that he started of course, he is the bad guy).

Regardless, just make sure he has reasonable goals based on his current power level... and remember the rule of villains..

Every villain is the hero of his own story.

Keep this in mind, take two D12s, and call me in the morning if you have problems. ^_^

Edhelras
2010-09-28, 05:03 AM
The problem with a low-lvl recurring villain is that he needs a means to escape the battle, if he's to stay recurring. He will likely not have access to fancy spells to ensure that, and as a wiz, he'll be vulnerable to lucky hits.

The way to solve this would be, IMO, to have him be somewhat higher level, and to have him primarily annoy the PCs through the actions of his minions (in this case, undead minions). It could and should still be pretty obvious that he's the brain behind it all, but his minions should do the actual fighting mostly.

Even if he shows up at the battlefield in person, he can be shielded by a number and lvl of minions appropriate for the Encounter level. You can extract him from battle at any time, just by pretending that he's either a coward, or he has more important stuff on his mind, or he was only there to assess the threat the PCs are posing, or something like that. This way, you can easily scale his contribution to the battle to make an appopriate encounter level. You can even use him to "DM cheat" if the battle goes too well or too poorly for the PCs.

As they gain in power, he will too. So he'll get access to more fancy ways of escaping combat - then he will also be able to participate more actively in combat, and still be able to escape in the last moment, to return another day.

ericgrau
2010-09-28, 05:26 AM
In one of his articles Rich also has a main villain who starts out much stronger than the PCs but levels slower. This is so the PCs may catch up to him in time for the final battle but can't take him out early in the campaign. As you said rivals match the PC all the time. So really the answer is whatever gives the PCs an appropriate challenge.

Morithias
2010-09-28, 06:55 AM
You could also not scale him at all, but rather have him switch tactics. Once it becomes obvious that he can't beat them head on, he does things like turns the authorities against them, traps, and so on. "Recurring Villain" doesn't always have to equal "Quirky Miniboss Squad".

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 07:00 AM
If it's a villain of the type the heroes personally fight, scale him as much as necessary so that he remains a constant threat. But that's not only levels. He could get himself elite mooks, an assistant, some McGuffin spell...

big teej
2010-09-28, 02:36 PM
I'm afraid I don't have time respond to all the awesome suggestions I'm getting. however



I love the playground ^_^ it is so helpful.

aeauseth
2010-09-29, 03:32 PM
I thought the Shackled City campaign had a good handle on NPC scaling. The typical NPC was always 1 level below the average party level.

The re-occuring bosses had templates added as the campaign progressed. The idea of keeping the Boss +4 levels (more or less) above the party seems like a good one.