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GoblinGilmartin
2010-09-27, 12:55 PM
So, I was wondering.... why do people think that a guy with a female PC is weird? arent RPGs all about role playing?

Opinions please...
and don't be ugly...

Yora
2010-09-27, 12:58 PM
We had this very same discussion two or so weeks ago. Please use the search function to find it.

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 12:59 PM
There have been a few recent threads on this.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166435

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167931

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167865

Basically it depends on the maturity of your gaming group. Some groups it works just fine. Some groups you end up with horny teenage guys playing a 24/7 porn star turned adventurer.

Caliphbubba
2010-09-27, 12:59 PM
meh. I have a couple of longtime charaters that are gender-flipped.

I don't think its weird, and very few people I play with on a regular basis think its all that weird.

The one notable exception in my circle of friends that discourages it didn't have a very good answer when I asked him about it.

Gensh
2010-09-27, 01:01 PM
The problem isn't usually that a male player is acting out a female character, so much as that it's frequently a guy with a low level of maturity using it as an excuse to have other people justify his wish fulfillment. Sort of like classic Star Trek, except that the plot has even less bearing on character interaction. I don't do it because I don't believe that I can play a convincing woman. Meh.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-27, 01:10 PM
Some people are really abhorrent to the idea... <shrug> These tend to be exactly the ones I don't like talking to anyway so I don't miss them the least.

I have an in-game example of that though. My changeling character is played specifically with the typical Becomer trait of being extremely liberal with the capacity of assuming forms. This squicks some of the characters in the party. Others are pleasantly puzzled.

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 01:10 PM
http://www.goblinscomic.com/08192005/
http://www.goblinscomic.com/08202005/

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 01:12 PM
The problem is when the character is used as sexual wish fulfillment. I've seen the problem with girls playing girl characters too so it doesn't bother me except when done really badly (and I'm not talking 'oh my character is a nekomimi' badly, I'm talking 'want to...' from a 2-ft pixie to the human warrior within the first 3 minutes of being introduced bad). Personally I've been worried about playing a female character because I feared I would do it badly.

kamikasei
2010-09-27, 01:15 PM
Sort of like classic Star Trek
Wait, what?

Tengu_temp
2010-09-27, 01:18 PM
http://www.goblinscomic.com/08192005/
http://www.goblinscomic.com/08202005/

Because everyone knows that exaggerated stereotypes played for humour are a completely accurate depiction of reality!

Okay, some guys really do play female characters like that. But I wouldn't want to play with someone like that even if he played a male one.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-27, 01:21 PM
Wait, what?

Gene Roddenberry: Space Pervert.

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 01:23 PM
Because everyone knows that exaggerated stereotypes played for humour are a completely accurate depiction of reality!

Okay, some guys really do play female characters like that. But I wouldn't want to play with someone like that even if he played a male one.

Yeah that's the type most people are thinking of when they object to cross-gender roleplaying.


Wait, what?

To be fair, star trek was pretty good for the 60's.

Yora
2010-09-27, 01:53 PM
I think most people who play their female characters as sluts, also play their male characters as pigs. So whatever...

DeltaEmil
2010-09-27, 02:02 PM
I don't think they play male characters at all, as long as they have the option to play a female scantily claded (or even naked) battle whore using sex to dominate their enemies and to heal themselves (by draining the enemies health), or whatever dubious methods there are.

arrowhen
2010-09-27, 02:06 PM
It's because girls have cooties. Even pretend girls.

Yora
2010-09-27, 02:06 PM
I think it's plain homophobia.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-27, 02:15 PM
I think it's plain homophobia.
If you chop the word up and take the Latin and Greek literally, not wanting to play opposite genders would be heterophobia.:smallamused:
But in all seriousness, I don't really see how wanting or not wanting to play the gender you don't identify has anything to do with homosexuality.

Prime32
2010-09-27, 02:16 PM
If you chop the word up and take the Latin and Greek literally, not wanting to play opposite genders would be heterophobia.:smallamused:And metrosexuals are people with either a city or mother fetish...

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 02:17 PM
If you chop the word up and take the Latin and Greek literally, not wanting to play opposite genders would be heterophobia.:smallamused:
But in all seriousness, I don't really see how wanting or not wanting to play the gender you don't identify has anything to do with homosexuality.

It depends. There are some cases I've seen where guys just get hung up on another guy playing an attractive character (because they find the character attractive and then realize it's "really" the player and get squicked). In my experience that's not the majority but it does happen.

Shademan
2010-09-27, 02:21 PM
I just cant envision the other players as a female character if they are male...
therefore i only play females if they are genderless (robots) nondiscernable (big hairy ogre) or if it is a PbP or video game

Snake-Aes
2010-09-27, 02:26 PM
But in all seriousness, I don't really see how wanting or not wanting to play the gender you don't identify has anything to do with homosexuality.

The problem lies in the fact that people who have a problem with players playing cross-gendered "see" it.

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 02:27 PM
I just cant envision the other players as a female character if they are male...
therefore i only play females if they are genderless (robots) nondiscernable (big hairy ogre) or if it is a PbP or video game

Hehe. Now I'd like you to try envisioning me as an orc barbarian...

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2129/19/8/614642930/n614642930_1375548_2474.jpg

Ravens_cry
2010-09-27, 02:27 PM
It depends. There are some cases I've seen where guys just get hung up on another guy playing an attractive character (because they find the character attractive and then realize it's "really" the player and get squicked). In my experience that's not the majority but it does happen.
I would say that's pretty distinct from homophobia, as that would imply that someone who wants to play an opposite gender is homosexual.

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 02:29 PM
I would say that's pretty distinct from homophobia, as that would imply that someone who wants to play an opposite gender is homosexual.

Maybe. Usually homophobia has a good dose of I-don't-want-any-homosexuals-around-me. In essence though it's the same reason a homophobe would refer to a MtF as a "trap" - because he's finding himself attracted to someone who's "really a man" but that's not possible because he's straight but...

AtwasAwamps
2010-09-27, 02:31 PM
Hehe. Now I'd like you to try envisioning me as an orc barbarian...

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2129/19/8/614642930/n614642930_1375548_2474.jpg

COME ON PEOPLE. This has been up for five minutes. Why isn't there a photoshop recolor up?

You disappoint me, internet.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-27, 02:33 PM
Maybe. Usually homophobia has a good dose of I-don't-want-any-homosexuals-around-me. In essence though it's the same reason a homophobe would refer to a MtF as a "trap" - because he's finding himself attracted to someone who's "really a man" but that's not possible because he's straight but...
I still think we are stretching the term homophobe a bit far here.

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 02:36 PM
I still think we are stretching the term homophobe a bit far here.

In my experience it's usually an odd mix of homophobia and misogyny and a lack of self-confidence. There's no neat term though.

Telonius
2010-09-27, 02:39 PM
Hehe. Now I'd like you to try envisioning me as an orc barbarian...

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2129/19/8/614642930/n614642930_1375548_2474.jpg

With some tusks, a bunch of green paint, lack of glasses, slightly longer (and darker) hair, a bared-teeth scowl, and a whole bunch of acting?

.... maybe. :smallbiggrin:

AtwasAwamps
2010-09-27, 02:40 PM
I don’t really like people playing opposite gender characters unless I’m sure they can handle it. One of the players at my table…who I hate as a player because he’s got the brain capability of a drunken duck…wanted to play a female drow character in my 4e game. He’s mostly fine, and then periodically has his character wandering around naked, scantily clad, or otherwise stripped and acting like a complete and utter moron about being naked around men and dangling her lady bits at them.

It’s…irritating, to say the least. I don’t like it. He’s currently got a bit of an ultimatum from myself and his girlfriend…play a woman better or be ready to reroll.

I don’t have an inherent prejudice against it, I just don’t like seeing it done poorly. Its awkward and embarrassing to watch, so I’m wary of it from the start. I do the same to women who want to play male characters.

Telonius
2010-09-27, 02:45 PM
I don’t really like people playing opposite gender characters unless I’m sure they can handle it. One of the players at my table…who I hate as a player because he’s got the brain capability of a drunken duck…wanted to play a female drow character in my 4e game. He’s mostly fine, and then periodically has his character wandering around naked, scantily clad, or otherwise stripped and acting like a complete and utter moron about being naked around men and dangling her lady bits at them.

It’s…irritating, to say the least. I don’t like it. He’s currently got a bit of an ultimatum from myself and his girlfriend…play a woman better or be ready to reroll.

I don’t have an inherent prejudice against it, I just don’t like seeing it done poorly. Its awkward and embarrassing to watch, so I’m wary of it from the start. I do the same to women who want to play male characters.

My sympathies. Also, see WarKitty's links above. :smallyuk:

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 02:46 PM
With some tusks, a bunch of green paint, lack of glasses, slightly longer (and darker) hair, a bared-teeth scowl, and a whole bunch of acting?

.... maybe. :smallbiggrin:

Hence why the difficulty seeing a player as the opposite-gender character doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It doesn't seem more of a stretch than, say, seeing the nerdy guy across from you as a rampaging muscular orc barbarian.


I don’t really like people playing opposite gender characters unless I’m sure they can handle it. One of the players at my table…who I hate as a player because he’s got the brain capability of a drunken duck…wanted to play a female drow character in my 4e game. He’s mostly fine, and then periodically has his character wandering around naked, scantily clad, or otherwise stripped and acting like a complete and utter moron about being naked around men and dangling her lady bits at them.

It’s…irritating, to say the least. I don’t like it. He’s currently got a bit of an ultimatum from myself and his girlfriend…play a woman better or be ready to reroll.

I don’t have an inherent prejudice against it, I just don’t like seeing it done poorly. Its awkward and embarrassing to watch, so I’m wary of it from the start. I do the same to women who want to play male characters.

Pretty much this, yeah. I think a lot of it has to do with identification. Most people I know need to somehow identify with their characters. Some people have trouble identifying with a member of the opposite gender, and it doesn't work.

Prime32
2010-09-27, 02:46 PM
Hehe. Now I'd like you to try envisioning me as an orc barbarian...

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2129/19/8/614642930/n614642930_1375548_2474.jpgHelp, she's going to eat me! :smalleek:

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 02:47 PM
Help, she's going to eat me! :smalleek:

No that would be my half-elf druid. My barbarian is actually rather nice.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-27, 02:48 PM
In my experience it's usually an odd mix of homophobia and misogyny and a lack of self-confidence. There's no neat term though.
I don't think it is quite fair to see it as a bad thing, but merely as a preference. Everyone has a different comfort level for role playing. Just like a certain percentage of people don't like going into too much detail in scenes involving torture or sexual activity, or even having them included at all, some people just don't feel comfortable playing in the same game as someone cross-playing.
I cross gender role play, I think I do a fair job of it, but not everyone has the same comfort level.

Prime32
2010-09-27, 02:49 PM
No that would be my half-elf druid. My barbarian is actually rather nice.But that expression. You look hungry.

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 02:50 PM
I don't think it is quite fair to see it as a bad thing, but merely as a preference. Everyone has a different comfort level for role playing. Just like a certain percentage of people don't like going into too much detail in scenes involving torture or sexual activity, or even having them included at all, some people just don't feel comfortable playing in the same game as someone cross-playing.
I cross gender role play, I think I do a fair job of it, but not everyone has the same comfort level.

I guess...the trouble is every time I've met someone who's not comfortable with cross-gender roleplaying for that type of reason, they're not comfortable with me at the gaming table as a genderqueer individual.

*I'm excluding people who aren't comfortable with it because it's usually done badly, or who don't personally think they can do a good job.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-27, 03:01 PM
I guess...the trouble is every time I've met someone who's not comfortable with cross-gender roleplaying for that type of reason, they're not comfortable with me at the gaming table as a genderqueer individual.

*I'm excluding people who aren't comfortable with it because it's usually done badly, or who don't personally think they can do a good job.
Well, partner, that sounds like a case of the They Do, Except When They Don'ts. What is your reasoning for excluding examples you yourself have encountered?

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 03:06 PM
Well, partner, that sounds like a case of the They Do, Except When They Don'ts. What is your reasoning for excluding examples you yourself have encountered?

I'm not sure what you mean, could you rephrase?

I'm distinguishing between "I don't like cross-gender rp because it typically doesn't produce a reasonable character" and "I don't like cross-gender rp because I'm not comfortable with a man pretending to be a woman (or vice versa)."

Roderick_BR
2010-09-27, 03:22 PM
Anyone that ever played video games wouldn't be weirded out. How many times you prefered playing Chun-li over Ryu, or, in a more related example, played female characters in MMOs?

And sorry, I can't stop being ugly :smallsmile:

DeltaEmil
2010-09-27, 03:25 PM
]How many times you prefered playing Chun-li over RyuIn most cases, I play Ryu, 'cause his hurricane kick is a lot easier to execute than Chun-Li's whirlwind kick. :smallredface:
Although, Ryu is kinda overpowered anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 03:37 PM
Anyone that ever played video games wouldn't be weirded out. How many times you prefered playing Chun-li over Ryu, or, in a more related example, played female characters in MMOs?

And sorry, I can't stop being ugly :smallsmile:

Never (I've only played Street Fighter once and I played Ryu or Ken) and I don't play MMOs.

And I can't stop being ugly either:smallsmile:

Prime32
2010-09-27, 03:38 PM
I guess...the trouble is every time I've met someone who's not comfortable with cross-gender roleplaying for that type of reason, they're not comfortable with me at the gaming table as a genderqueer individual.Can't this be generalised as "Men should do men things, women should do women things"?

AtwasAwamps
2010-09-27, 03:39 PM
Anyone that ever played video games wouldn't be weirded out. How many times you prefered playing Chun-li over Ryu, or, in a more related example, played female characters in MMOs?

And sorry, I can't stop being ugly :smallsmile:

Yes and no. There is a difference inherent in video games and tabletop games that can’t be discounted.

There’s a level of seperation between your avatar in a game and you as the player. Even in MMOs, where people may actually ‘roleplay’, there’s a divorce between you and your avatar to an extended degree. In a tabletop game, there’s no divorce…you are supposed to act as your character would act. You are not controlling an avatar, the DM or players are looking at you and expecting you to react as a person of the gender you’ve chosen to play at would act.

This can be very strange for some people, even those used to video games. Tomb Raider didn’t sell well because people liked to pretend they were Lara Croft. They liked to watch Lara Croft’s rear-end and bosom on the screen. That’s the case with games like Bullet Witch, Bayonetta, Red Ninja, and so on…it’s fan service 99% of the time. Not roleplaying.

This has led to some rather interesting moments in gaming online for me, though. In a game like Diablo or Phantasy Star Online, where gender was linked not just to appearance but certain sets of class abilities, I’ve had some interesting experiences, especially because I refuse to play a female avatar utilizing a male name. In the original Diablo, I played a Rogue (a female bow user), which I chose to name Fallon. I proceeded to be harassed by a few people who asked me out and one person who thought I might be his niece and who admonished me for using a female name. It was frustrating for me, especially because I was a teenage boy with a lot to prove and a chip in my shoulder and ended up in me not playing either that character or Diablo online again.

Years later, when I playes PSO, the only character that had the mix of stats and abilities I wanted was the HUnewearl…which was, of course, a scantily clad elf-woman. I made one that looked like the type of girl I was attracted to at the time, because I figured why not? Oh lord…playing online resulted in a LOT of lonely men/boys hitting on me. I was more confident in myself at that time then I was when I played Diablo, so…I just ran with it. I started running around with amazingly good items, got drops that I probably shouldn’t have, and so on and so forth, while putting up with people telling me things like “Nice walk Chica” and “Baby can I have ur dgts?” It was funny and I brushed it off. Plus, hey, free loot! I won’t say no to high level Grantz discs, okay? Those things are rare and that spell is awesome.

Prime32
2010-09-27, 03:41 PM
50% of women in MMOs are actually men. Fact.

jiriku
2010-09-27, 03:46 PM
Hehe. Now I'd like you to try envisioning me as an orc barbarian...

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2129/19/8/614642930/n614642930_1375548_2474.jpg

I am.

You look green. And hairy. And tusky. And very fierce. But you still have a flower in your hair. :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2010-09-27, 03:49 PM
50% of women in MMOs are actually men. Fact.

That's a much lower number than I would have guessed, personally.

Our group has never had a particular problem with this, I must say. One player almost deliberately alternates character gender, another has a rather marked tendancy to play girls specifically, several others pick and choose, and so on. Actually, the only regular who has any real awkwardness in playing a character of the opposite gender is one of the girls, funnily enough. She's pretty fine with other people doing it, she just tends to identify quite strongly with her characters and I guess she's just not quite so confident jumping the imaginary gender gap.

Personally, I've played characters of both sex, as well as one who was in denial of his orientation, and a Cardassian who enjoyed studying non-gender-normative behavior (Which is to say, indulged in some harmless transvestism when not on duty)
It must be said that reguardless of sex and etc, my characters tend not to be romantically motivated (and rarely romantically active at all) for personal reasons. I'll likely try shaking that up once or twice, the alternator is planning a 'dynasties' style star-wars Saga campaign at some point, where we would as time goes on play our own descendants and so on.

Should be interesting, if it gets started.

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 04:03 PM
Ironically most women I know who play online MMO's prefer to play male characters. Mainly because they don't enjoy the "extra" attention of playing a female character.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-27, 04:06 PM
On the Internet, men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents waiting to get you.

randomhero00
2010-09-27, 04:13 PM
I don't think its weird or wrong I just can't personally pull it off. Nor can many. Since I like good roleplay that's my only problem with it.

Benly
2010-09-27, 04:32 PM
I used to be worried about the "can I play a believable woman" thing. The advice I was given was "don't try to play a believable woman, try to play a believable person and you'll do much better".

Also, if you want to know the secret of causing people to assume that you're a real woman on an MMO (at least one where you have control over your clothing and appearance rather than WoW-style "wear whatever has the best stats no matter how stupid it looks"), it's to wear non-titillating clothes and (this is important) sensible pants. If you dress a female avatar like a sensible person who actually dresses herself might, it does more than any amount of lies and roleplaying to give a "this player is female" first impression in my accidental experience.

NMBLNG
2010-09-27, 04:46 PM
I think some of the dislike may come from the idea that, if you want to play as a female, you must have some motivation. In some cases, where the motivation is obvious or comical, it may be accepted better. For instance, wanting to play the creepy psychic girl, or Xena, or whatever.

When the character archetype has no apparent need to be female, then people get suspicious.

But that's just a theory.

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 04:48 PM
I think some of the dislike may come from the idea that, if you want to play as a female, you must have some motivation. In some cases, where the motivation is obvious or comical, it may be accepted better. For instance, wanting to play the creepy psychic girl, or Xena, or whatever.

When the character archetype has no apparent need to be female, then people get suspicious.

But that's just a theory.

Right, plus most fantasy adventurer archetypes either are explicitly male or default to male.

RebelRogue
2010-09-27, 05:58 PM
I don't know... it's a fine line sometimes. As a general rule, I do believe we all have an easier time playing whatever gender we may happen to personally be. Sometimes, playing the opposite can be interesting, or maybe even played for laughs (for one, I've seen the 'teehee, I'm an elven princess' thing done at my table, but we're a pretty lighthearted group anyway). I would probably feel slightly awkward if I had to play getting romantically involved with another male player's character, at least if it was done to any degree of seriousness. Not because I'm a homophobe - I'm very liberal when it comes to sexuality and gender roles, no problems there - but that doesn't mean the subtle implications of me personally acting against my own sexuality would not feel just a tiny bit unnatural. Does that make sense? In any case, I haven't been in the situation, so I actually don't know.

arrowhen
2010-09-27, 06:16 PM
Maturity issues aside, I *hate* when men affect horrible falsettoes to try and sound female.

Unless you have serious voice acting skills, leave your pitch where it belongs. Word choice, rhythm, and mannerism get the point across just fine.

AtwasAwamps
2010-09-28, 12:06 PM
I used to be worried about the "can I play a believable woman" thing. The advice I was given was "don't try to play a believable woman, try to play a believable person and you'll do much better".


Totally agreed. Gender is often a hurdle to leap over before you can do that, though.



Also, if you want to know the secret of causing people to assume that you're a real woman on an MMO (at least one where you have control over your clothing and appearance rather than WoW-style "wear whatever has the best stats no matter how stupid it looks"), it's to wear non-titillating clothes and (this is important) sensible pants. If you dress a female avatar like a sensible person who actually dresses herself might, it does more than any amount of lies and roleplaying to give a "this player is female" first impression in my accidental experience.

Disagree completely. As a former WoW player who knew most of the folks he played with IRL, I must tell you that the women who played were fairly equally split between those who dressed their avatars modestly and dressed their avatars scantily. Heck, most of the girls I knew kept different outfits on their characters and EVERY woman I knew had a pair of Black Mageweave lying around for fun.

Its like wearing skimpy clothes on Halloween. There is an attraction in getting attention because you are attractive for either gender. Men do it, too, but in video games its easier for women (or at least female avatars) to pull it off because games are tailored to men. I didn't find it odd when my female friends enjoyed dressing up their avatars, scantily or not...they were having fun.

Yora
2010-09-28, 12:13 PM
When it comes to playing a fictional character in a fantasy world, gender is really the least difficult part. We all know actual men and women, and have been around them out entire lives.
Dwarves and mages, not so much. We're really just making **** up as we go.

Benly
2010-09-28, 12:13 PM
Disagree completely. As a former WoW player who knew most of the folks he played with IRL, I must tell you that the women who played were fairly equally split between those who dressed their avatars modestly and dressed their avatars scantily. Heck, most of the girls I knew kept different outfits on their characters and EVERY woman I knew had a pair of Black Mageweave lying around for fun.

Aheh, I should clarify. The actual female friends I have who play the same MMO I do (City of Heroes in my case) have pretty much the same degree of "sexy vs. sensible" in their character costume designs that the male players I know do. None of them are running around in idiotic action bikinis, but then again most male players who aren't idiots don't put their characters in those costumes either. When talking about how the female players I know actually design their characters, yes, you're pretty much right.

But if you want random people assuming that the player behind the character is female, sensible pants are the way to go. Of course, then I have to ask why you want people assuming that. In my case, characters wear sensible pants because they're the kind of characters that would wear sensible pants, but it's a very distinct side effect; I don't get people assuming I'm a female player when I'm using a character in a more "conventional" (read: tight and sexy) superheroine costume.

AtwasAwamps
2010-09-28, 12:15 PM
.

But if you want random people assuming that the player behind the character is female, sensible pants are the way to go. Of course, then I have to ask why you want people assuming that. In my case, characters wear sensible pants because they're the kind of characters that would wear sensible pants, but it's a very distinct side effect; I don't get people assuming I'm a female player when I'm using a character in a more "conventional" (read: tight and sexy) superheroine costume.

I remember griping for 30 minutes to a friend that my HUnewearl in Phantasy Star Online: Blue Burst could only have bikini bottoms. I wanted baggy pants.

When I could have a female character wearing baggy pants in Phantasy Star Universe, I immediately did so. I am not sure why I wanted a crazy laser-sword wielding woman to wear baggy pants and a tank top, but I did. Possibly because it makes her look like a berserk raver. Whatever. Happiness.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 12:19 PM
When it comes to playing a fictional character in a fantasy world, gender is really the least difficult part. We all know actual men and women, and have been around them out entire lives.
Dwarves and mages, not so much. We're really just making **** up as we go.

I think that's what makes people uncomfortable with it. I can make whatever **** up about playing a mage, and no one's going to tell you that you're doing it wrong or unrealistically, because mages don't exist.

Benly
2010-09-28, 12:21 PM
I remember griping for 30 minutes to a friend that my HUnewearl in Phantasy Star Online: Blue Burst could only have bikini bottoms. I wanted baggy pants.

When I could have a female character wearing baggy pants in Phantasy Star Universe, I immediately did so. I am not sure why I wanted a crazy laser-sword wielding woman to wear baggy pants and a tank top, but I did. Possibly because it makes her look like a berserk raver. Whatever. Happiness.

I have somewhat similar issues with the City of Heroes costume creator, as much as I love it: non-formal civilian shirts for women (T-shirts, polo shirts, etc) are all way too short. Even the longest ones and reasonably high pants will show some midriff.

(Also, the bust size slider is kind of problematic. Not the fact that there is one, but the fact that it bottoms out at "medium big" and scales up through "comedically oversized" into "frankly unsettling".)

AtwasAwamps
2010-09-28, 12:24 PM
I have somewhat similar issues with the City of Heroes costume creator, as much as I love it: non-formal civilian shirts for women (T-shirts, polo shirts, etc) are all way too short. Even the longest ones and reasonably high pants will show some midriff.

(Also, the bust size slider is kind of problematic. Not the fact that there is one, but the fact that it bottoms out at "medium big" and scales up through "comedically oversized" into "frankly unsettling".)


To be fair, that's only because its imitating the medium the game is based on.

Seriously, I don't remember the last time a leading female in comic books covered her navel consistently.

EDIT: Except for Power Girl, but she has...other...things...exposed.

Yora
2010-09-28, 12:31 PM
I think that's what makes people uncomfortable with it. I can make whatever **** up about playing a mage, and no one's going to tell you that you're doing it wrong or unrealistically, because mages don't exist.
But TV and movies are full of female characters whose entire behaviour and every word, as well as back story and style of dress, is a pure fictional invention created by men. It just happens that a female actor has to do the body language and vocalization, but that's something that usually doesn't come up in tabletop RPGs anyway. So why are these characters better then mine?
I really call it hypocrisy, these people just think it's gay.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 12:36 PM
A lot of people also think "man enjoying a female role = gay."

@Yora: I was referring primarily to people who don't feel that they can personally play a cross-gender character.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-28, 12:39 PM
Since I play entirely online (PbP or MapTool), I tend to just make the gender of the character be whatever matches the character. Looking through my character list, 19 are male, 15 are female (though 4 are basically the same character with slightly different name/backstory, since I've been trying to play this character for ages and the games keep dying), and 2 are oozes (they're also pretty much exactly the same character, with even similar names). Oddly enough, of the games I'm currently playing in, only 2 characters are male, but 7 are female...

If I played in real life, I'd probably stick to male characters just because I don't think my acting skills are even remotely good enough to play a female character.

kamikasei
2010-09-28, 12:40 PM
Seriously, I don't remember the last time a leading female in comic books covered her navel consistently.
Wonder Woman.

Telonius
2010-09-28, 12:41 PM
I have somewhat similar issues with the City of Heroes costume creator, as much as I love it: non-formal civilian shirts for women (T-shirts, polo shirts, etc) are all way too short. Even the longest ones and reasonably high pants will show some midriff.

(Also, the bust size slider is kind of problematic. Not the fact that there is one, but the fact that it bottoms out at "medium big" and scales up through "comedically oversized" into "frankly unsettling".)

To be fair, that is the most common superpower (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower). (Warning: TVTrope link)

AtwasAwamps
2010-09-28, 12:46 PM
Wonder Woman.

Aha! Though to be fair, she doesn't cover much either, but her navel is covered!

EDIT: And her new costume involves a jacket and sensible pants!

Dairun Cates
2010-09-28, 01:04 PM
COME ON PEOPLE. This has been up for five minutes. Why isn't there a photoshop recolor up?

You disappoint me, internet.

Fine. Here's a quick 5 minute mock-up. I even made the helmet shiny for you.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Dairun/QuickOgrePhotoshop.jpg

And no. I'm not going to go back and spend the hours to smooth out ALL those lines. You want better. Do it yourself.

Reluctance
2010-09-28, 01:13 PM
I think that's what makes people uncomfortable with it. I can make whatever **** up about playing a mage, and no one's going to tell you that you're doing it wrong or unrealistically, because mages don't exist.

This makes me wonder how often people see cross-racial RP, and how well it usually goes over.

AtwasAwamps
2010-09-28, 01:35 PM
Fine. Here's a quick 5 minute mock-up. I even made the helmet shiny for you.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Dairun/QuickOgrePhotoshop.jpg

And no. I'm not going to go back and spend the hours to smooth out ALL those lines. You want better. Do it yourself.

You're the best, Dairun.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 01:43 PM
Fine. Here's a quick 5 minute mock-up. I even made the helmet shiny for you.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Dairun/QuickOgrePhotoshop.jpg

And no. I'm not going to go back and spend the hours to smooth out ALL those lines. You want better. Do it yourself.

Any chance you kept the original file?

Dairun Cates
2010-09-28, 01:54 PM
Any chance you kept the original file?

Always do.

Why? You wanna bother to actually touch up the mask?

Ravens_cry
2010-09-28, 02:03 PM
This makes me wonder how often people see cross-racial RP, and how well it usually goes over.
Are you referring to a white person playing a black person or a human playing a elf?

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 02:06 PM
Always do.

Why? You wanna bother to actually touch up the mask?

Yeah pretty much. I'll PM you after class.

MachineWraith
2010-09-28, 02:09 PM
My gaming group consists of about a 50/50 ratio of men to women, with about half of each gender group occasionally playing the opposite gender. Oddly enough, there is one man and one woman who consistently play the other gender (not saying it's odd that they do that, just that we ended up with one of each).

It's never been a problem, really. We get the occasional female who is a little too promiscuous, and we get the occasional male who is "Dur, hit baddie with axe, hit girl with ****". However, the players usually all see it as good fun, and it's never taken too over the top or too far into "squick" levels.

The thing is, though, that the people who play their own gender are just as likely to play them that way as the ones who play the opposite.

Thajocoth
2010-09-28, 02:17 PM
In MMOs, a lot of guys play women because people are nicer to them and a lot of girls play men to avoid all the extra attention. The lack of a physical body present makes most people not care about it.

At a table though, if one guy is playing a guy, and another guy is playing a girl... It may make the best RP sense, depending on the specifics, for their characters to flirt, but the player may find the idea gross because it's a guy. And they just don't want the possibility of that to ever arise.

And for some reason, most of the people who have a problem with a guy playing a girl would be fine with their sister playing the same character...

Personally, I don't care who plays what.

dsmiles
2010-09-28, 02:18 PM
I play cross-gender frequently, though not all the time, and I guess my group is a little more liberal than others because they even remember to refer to my character as "she" or "her." EDIT: Also our comfort level is a little high, as we are able to not get squicky over anything. Torture, murder, rape, sex, STDs, leprosey, genocide, you name it, we've seen it in our games.

I did come across a situation that may be hilarious, depending on your sense of humor:
I was in a, basically, "couples" gaming group. Me, two of my friends, and their wives (my wife doesn't play). We were playing RM/HARP in The Elder Scrolls setting. My friend is playing a Bosmer archer who works with my character as a bounty hunter team. The two wives are playing an escaped Khajit slave, and an Altmer abolitionist. IRL, the Bosmer player and the Khajit player are married, as are the GM and the Altmer.
For about three solid sessions, the Bosmer is hitting on the Khajit relentlessly. Then, about midway through the fourth session the Khajit shows her husband her character sheet, and he almost loses his lunch. Right there, in BIG CAPITAL LETTERS, next to the Gender space, is the word "MALE"!!! :smalleek: This had to be the best day of my gaming life. The GM's wife fell out of her chair laughing because she knew the whole time! So funny...ahh...good times. :smallsigh:

Just goes to show, not everyone can cross-gender roleplay. But kudos to those who can!

Marnath
2010-09-28, 02:27 PM
It's never been a problem, really. We get the occasional female who is a little too promiscuous, and we get the occasional male who is "Dur, hit baddie with axe, hit girl with ****". However, the players usually all see it as good fun, and it's never taken too over the top or too far into "squick" levels.


I don't play women, and I generally prefer the other guys not to either. Not because it squicks me out, but because none of them are mature enough to do it. This also works for when they play same-gender PC's poorly(like a Chaotic stupid lunatic) I have no problems with people who can RP a cross-gender PC well. Another thing to consider is that the above example isn't really balanced, because while the promiscuous lady adventurer makes no sense, there are/were loads of real men who really could be summed up by "Dur, hit baddie with axe, hit girl with ****", so it's not even neccessarily bad RP if a woman plays a man that way.

May I also say that warkitty is pretty in that picture? Good point about cross-species RP too. :smallsmile:

Ravens_cry
2010-09-28, 02:37 PM
Eh, it's pretty darn bad role play, just like a guy playing woman exclusively as the Ulti-Skank Fan-service Girl is generally bad roleplay, even though such woman can, in theory, exist in little ol' Reality.

MachineWraith
2010-09-28, 02:41 PM
I don't play women, and I generally prefer the other guys not to either. Not because it squicks me out, but because none of them are mature enough to do it. This also works for when they play same-gender PC's poorly(like a Chaotic stupid lunatic) I have no problems with people who can RP a cross-gender PC well. Another thing to consider is that the above example isn't really balanced, because while the promiscuous lady adventurer makes no sense, there are/were loads of real men who really could be summed up by "Dur, hit baddie with axe, hit girl with ****", so it's not even neccessarily bad RP if a woman plays a man that way.

May I also say that warkitty is pretty in that picture? Good point about cross-species RP too. :smallsmile:

There are many promiscuous, loose women as well, you just have to be around the right wrong circles. It's just as reasonable to have a female who sleeps with anyone she chooses, and chooses often, as it is a man.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 02:48 PM
There are many promiscuous, loose women as well, you just have to be around the right wrong circles. It's just as reasonable to have a female who sleeps with anyone she chooses, and chooses often, as it is a man.

To be fair, one of my favorite characters was a courtesan bard whose primary strategy was "look at my boobs...pay no attention to the rogue sneaking up behind you, just keep staring..."

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 02:52 PM
To be fair, one of my favorite characters was a courtesan bard whose primary strategy was "look at my boobs...pay no attention to the rogue sneaking up behind you, just keep staring..."

Should I present your bard two dragon magazine-like feats that revolve around the concept of "Intimate healing"? :p They're even called "Invigorating Caresses" and "Seductive Courtesan"

Kerrin
2010-09-28, 02:55 PM
If the characters are played well, it doesn't really matter to me.

Honestly, if someone is playing a male *class* or a female *class* there really doesn't have to be any difference in how they're played - unless that somehow makes a material difference in the character's personality or other things.

There are certainly cases where that might be true, but its also quite possible that it makes no difference whatsoever. For example, an ex-military guy who becomes a fighter adventurer doesn't necessarily have to be a lot different than an ex-military gal (with the same backstory) who becomes a fighter adventurer.

Reluctance
2010-09-28, 03:11 PM
Are you referring to a white person playing a black person or a human playing a elf?

The latter happens all the time anyways, so I was thinking the former. It has as much room for offensive real-world stereotypes, so I wonder if it comes up less often because crossracial PCs are better played, or because they happen so much less often.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-28, 03:19 PM
The latter happens all the time anyways, so I was thinking the former. It has as much room for offensive real-world stereotypes, so I wonder if it comes up less often because crossracial PCs are better played, or because they happen so much less often.
Well, table-top role playing games are primarily a non-visual medium. Unless you are playing up the stereotypes, I don't see how playing someone from the equivalent of sub-Saharan Africa would be much different from playing someone from the equivalent of Northern Europe, except potential NPC reactions.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 03:50 PM
Well, table-top role playing games are primarily a non-visual medium. Unless you are playing up the stereotypes, I don't see how playing someone from the equivalent of sub-Saharan Africa would be much different from playing someone from the equivalent of Northern Europe, except potential NPC reactions.

Most characters I've found are "default white."


Should I present your bard two dragon magazine-like feats that revolve around the concept of "Intimate healing"? :p They're even called "Invigorating Caresses" and "Seductive Courtesan"

Ok now I'm curious. I miss her, she was a real sweetheart when she wasn't "on the job."

AtwasAwamps
2010-09-28, 03:54 PM
Most characters I've found are "default white."


Since I'm not white and I grew up reading fantasy, I've always had a problem with the "default white" nature of characters. I'm extremely specific about my characters' ethnicity when playing a game where that is likely to come up and I try to play to the character if the issue arises. I like things to be a little bit different.

Bleah...thinking about this topic has made me think of all the irritating things my group tends to do that grate on me. They're great folks, but we come from such hugely different backgrounds in most cases that its drawn me into conflict with some of them...harmless in most cases, but when I think back on it, they're all gender issue related. I'm kind of a jerk.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 04:00 PM
Since I'm not white and I grew up reading fantasy, I've always had a problem with the "default white" nature of characters. I'm extremely specific about my characters' ethnicity when playing a game where that is likely to come up and I try to play to the character if the issue arises. I like things to be a little bit different.

Bleah...thinking about this topic has made me think of all the irritating things my group tends to do that grate on me. They're great folks, but we come from such hugely different backgrounds in most cases that its drawn me into conflict with some of them...harmless in most cases, but when I think back on it, they're all gender issue related. I'm kind of a jerk.

It's sort of the same issue, I've always felt that the default RPG character was white and male. So people play white male characters as "normal" characters, but female/non-white characters end up being seen as in need of extra defining.

Sort of like my reaction to "why would you play a cross-gender character?" For me it was always "why not? what's the difference?" I generally can't articulate a reason why my characters should be male or female.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 04:06 PM
Most characters I've found are "default white."



Ok now I'm curious. I miss her, she was a real sweetheart when she wasn't "on the job."

I don't remember them perfectly right now, but you could like CHAMOD times per day recover 1 use of any class feature that has its uses measured in times per day, like turn undead or a spell slot, or heal a couple dice of hp.

hotel_papa
2010-09-28, 04:17 PM
My annoyance with gender-swapping characters is usually my irritation about which pronoun to use. I've only had one game where it didn't pierce my own suspension of disbelief, as a DM. That being said, I kinda see it the same way I see cross-dressing: It is something that makes me personally uncomfortable, but I'm mature enough to recognize that it is my deficiency, not theirs.

Benly
2010-09-28, 05:27 PM
I gender-swap considerably more than I race-swap in tabletop gaming, but I do occasionally. I very rarely see white players play black characters in D&D, but curiously it is fairly common for them to play Asian characters. If I were to armchair-psychologize, I would say that American gamers have an image of D&D being a quasi-pseudomedieval worldsetting, and have a mental image of medieval Europe and a mental image of China and Japan in either simultaneous or historically "corresponding" periods (fantasy kung-fu flicks and samurai movies respectively) but have very little mental image of Africans in a corresponding setting.

Marnath
2010-09-28, 07:50 PM
I don't know about other settings, but Forgotten Realms is a very diverse world. If you're going to play a human there you do need to actually specify what ethnicity you're playing, which determines where you're from and what bonus gear you start with. So in theory you'd come up with a more mixed group than otherwise.

fortesama
2010-09-28, 08:01 PM
playing as female characters hasn't been an issue in our group... except for the one time one of the women in the group played a male character with behaviour that would make any yaoi fangirl squeal and replied in kind with a lesbian... but that's another story. in any case, i frequently play females characters in our games and the only problem that usually pop up is when either our DM or one of our players forgot that my characters a female... which made for a rather entertaining session when we had to infiltrate a brothel.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 08:05 PM
I think I should create a random race table.

Marnath
2010-09-28, 08:19 PM
I think I should create a random race table.

For what purpose? :smallconfused:

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 08:23 PM
For what purpose? :smallconfused:

Well, I don't really like how the characters seem to be all default white, but I don't feel like I can pick a race without doing something like "stereotypical asian monk" or something. So, generate the character and then roll for their race, problem solved!

Benly
2010-09-28, 08:37 PM
Well, I don't really like how the characters seem to be all default white, but I don't feel like I can pick a race without doing something like "stereotypical asian monk" or something. So, generate the character and then roll for their race, problem solved!

Or you could just bear the matter in mind and design nonwhite characters sometimes.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 08:54 PM
Or you could just bear the matter in mind and design nonwhite characters sometimes.

Well that's the idea. The trouble is, much as I know it *shouldn't* matter, I always end up with something like "stereotypical asian monk" or "stereotypical african barbarian."

FirebirdFlying
2010-09-28, 09:03 PM
*shrug* Going through my characters, I've made 15 female, 11 male, and 5 ungendered. So. I've never really had a problem playing the other gender, but then again my non-PbP gaming time has been pretty low.

…I've also made characters of ethnicities ranging from Noldorin to star-pixie-thing to mixed East Asian/Caucasian human (and it's an M&M game, so, yes, the terms Asian, etc. actually apply).

Benly
2010-09-28, 09:07 PM
Well that's the idea. The trouble is, much as I know it *shouldn't* matter, I always end up with something like "stereotypical asian monk" or "stereotypical african barbarian."

Well, are all your white characters stereotypical Crusader paladins? Next time you're making a character, make a conscious decision to think over your options and it may be easier than you'd expect.

My last black character was a spellthief from a pseudo-Moorish country; my last Asian was a Chinese jeweler and assassin in a kind of superhero alternate-history-ish game. For whatever the heck that's worth.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-28, 09:26 PM
Well, I don't really like how the characters seem to be all default white, but I don't feel like I can pick a race without doing something like "stereotypical asian monk" or something. So, generate the character and then roll for their race, problem solved!
Sorry, but such questions should not be in the hands of dice. A players decisions on their characters characteristics, unless they interfere negatively with the game, should be in the hands of the players themselves.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 09:27 PM
Hmmm...let me go through my past few characters...

Fionntan: Anthro-bat druid, female, color is listed as "cinnamon"

Kellen: male half-elf druid with drow blood, white with white hair and red eyes

Kandri: Female bardess, white, intentionally built with an almost-impossible figure

Curr: Female weretiger monk, asian with tiger features and faintly striped skin

Rezlan: male kobold rogue

Edit @ Ravens_cry: The table was for my own use only (and anyone else who wants to use it). I wouldn't make anyone use it, but it might be fun with your own character.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-28, 09:30 PM
Sorry, but such questions should not be in the hands of dice. A players decisions on their characters characteristics, unless they interfere negatively with the game, should be in the hands of the players themselves.
Pretty sure she meant for making her own characters.

Gensh
2010-09-28, 09:31 PM
Well, are all your white characters stereotypical Crusader paladins? Next time you're making a character, make a conscious decision to think over your options and it may be easier than you'd expect.

My last black character was a spellthief from a pseudo-Moorish country; my last Asian was a Chinese jeweler and assassin in a kind of superhero alternate-history-ish game. For whatever the heck that's worth.

It's not always that easy. For example, one of my recurring NPCs is the setting equivalent for either Arabian or Ptolemaic Egyptian depending on the game and thus has deep bronze skin, but I frequently forget and sketch him as default white simply because he doesn't fit any stereotype (though the English accent doesn't help). Even though some of us actively try to portray different races, when not paying attention, we instinctively default back to our own. That's really the reason why fantastic races exist in the first place; to allow real world sorts of issues without bringing in prior prejudice. After all, it doesn't matter if your dwarves are black, mine are white, and that guy's are asian because ultimately, how someone interprets an unseen character is up to the individual.

Benly
2010-09-28, 09:33 PM
It's not always that easy. For example, one of my recurring NPCs is the setting equivalent for either Arabian or Ptolemaic Egyptian depending on the game and thus has deep bronze skin, but I frequently forget and sketch him as default white simply because he doesn't fit any stereotype (though the English accent doesn't help). Even though some of us actively try to portray different races, when not paying attention, we instinctively default back to our own.

Well, fair enough. I don't tend to have trouble keeping a mental image of my own characters steady, but if you do I don't really know how to advise on the matter.

Marnath
2010-09-28, 09:52 PM
I have a good idea in my head what Marnath, my username character, lookes like. He looks just like every other warforged ever produced, rofl. ^.^

Ravens_cry
2010-09-28, 10:28 PM
Pretty sure she meant for making her own characters.
Sorry, that wasn't clear to me. WarKitty, thanks for clarifying that, though I don't think I would use such a chart personally.

Serpentine
2010-09-29, 12:32 AM
My game world has a variety of races, but... it's a bit divided up. The humans in the "American" continent are native American-type-race, but they're a minority species - there's more lizardfolk and centaurs (which are also native American) and the like than humans. The main continent is mostly European with some north African and middle eastern. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if there's any room for (black, as opposed to e.g. Egyptian) African-type-race... Perhaps I should mix them with the aboriginal-type-race in an Australianish continent. The "Europeans" are divided into the Eas (think Vikings and Europe-proper) and the Peninsulai (Greece and Rome), and then there's the islanders (Sumarians and Phoenecians), and the... I can't remember what I called them, but basically Egyptians and Arabs.
I think my ex/former co-DM had an idea for a continent of giants which would be based on Asia. Not going to come across that for a long time, but I still like the idea.
I think my elves are usually pale, while the dwarves are generally ruddy - nothing special, there, and alas still pretty eurocentric :/

edit: And, again, regarding the OP, I have no problem with people playing a character of a different sex to theirs. What I do have a problem with is bad characters. I am in a game with one such bad character who is a female (more or less) played by a male, but that's not why it's a bad character, and there's plenty of others that are male played by male or female played by female.

TheThan
2010-09-29, 01:34 AM
I’ve done cross gender in PBP but I’ve never done it in real life.

Though I have had two people do it. Both were guys playing girls. The first you couldn’t tell he was a she, that was for a 3rd edition game, I believe he was playing a monk. Nothing much happened in the way of character development other than we kept forgetting he was supposed to be a she. In fact, one player didn’t realize it for several sessions. The second was a 4E tiefling warlock. The character nearly got the whole party killed by using some kind of fireball like aoe spell, which caught the whole party in the blast. She responded with “oops! Soooory!”. The incredible thing is that the character felt like a ditzy blond girl despite the fact the player is a guy. While the character was a typical of a "badly" played girl, it worked perfectly for the sort of character he was intentionally portraying.

Also some of my favorite NPCs that I use are female. They are the Hellborne sisters, Carmilla and Raquel. They’re con artists and thieves by trade. They’re both tieflings and are quite the pair. Usually they stick to the city of Sigil, but occasionally they get into a little too much trouble and have to go and hide out elsewhere until things cool down, so they end up planeswalking into an ongoing campaign.

Carmilla is the older of the two and is usually in charge. She is a beguiler by class and is usually the front woman for the pair. Typically, she’s the one that comes up with all the plans. She’s beautiful, sexy, sensual and not above using her “assets” to get what she wants. But she’s not a slut, she won’t sleep with someone unless its necessary to finish the job (con job not… oh never mind). She’s very sociable and has a knack for getting people got give her what she wants.

Raquel is the younger, and is a rogue by class. She prefers to let her sister do all the talking and sticks to the shadows, working behind the scenes. She’s the one that does the “dirty” work, often times stealing what they need or arranging certain “events” to occur in order to make their con job work. While Raquel looks very much like her sister, she’s more athletic, unsociable, coarse, and is a bit more violent. She’s more likely to shank, than seduce (doesn’t necessarily mean sex). Raquel is not the sort of person to get involved in relationships.

Psyx
2010-09-29, 05:37 AM
It's generally not great purely because people are rubbish at roleplaying an opposite gender. Some people are fine, but most play walking clichés.

Oh... and some people are just downright creepy when they do it, too.

panaikhan
2010-09-29, 07:37 AM
I've had fun with both sides of the gender divide.
I've played stereotypes, yes. I've also played believable characters of both genders. I've also played plain wierd.
My favorite 'wierd' ones were the Warforged, who had an even mix of 'male' and 'female' traits, and a Heroes Unlimited character who was a 'female impersonator' (female super-hero, male mild-mannered alter ego).

I think it all depends on the player / group interaction. Some people are fine with it, some are not.

Serpentine
2010-09-29, 08:03 AM
That last one is more or less the opposite of my "bad character" I mentioned before. This one is a female Bard/Paladin of Freedom by day, but by night, s/he is, WOMAN MAN! Vigilant gender-confused defender of the people's freedoms with a sock stuffed down his/her pants!
I would like to see him make a real character some time. It would be nice.

dsmiles
2010-09-29, 08:10 AM
That last one is more or less the opposite of my "bad character" I mentioned before. This one is a female Bard/Paladin of Freedom by day, but by night, s/he is, WOMAN MAN! Vigilant gender-confused defender of the people's freedoms with a sock stuffed down his/her pants!
I would like to see him make a real character some time. It would be nice.

Are you sure that's a sock? :smalleek:

Yora
2010-09-29, 08:12 AM
By the forum rules, yes, it is. :smallbiggrin:

Quincunx
2010-09-29, 08:15 AM
I ain't volunteering to find out.


This makes me wonder how often people see cross-racial RP, and how well it usually goes over.

Almost never, and for sheer conversation-stopping power it's even better to 'slip up' and 'confess' to that instead of to playing cross-gender. Had this not been done over the Internet, it would've been impossible to misconstrue in the first place, so how it ties into face-to-face play I have little idea. (Actually, I have no idea how the idea got into his head in the first place, and when pressed, neither did he.)

Serpentine
2010-09-29, 08:17 AM
Player-confirmed, it's a sock. And quite obviously so, apparently.

dsmiles
2010-09-29, 08:22 AM
Player-confirmed, it's a sock. And quite obviously so, apparently.

Does s/he make it hang out of his/her drawers a little? That would be close to the funniest thing I've ever seen (if true).

Knaight
2010-09-29, 08:25 AM
The second was a 4E tiefling warlock. The character nearly got the whole party killed by using some kind of fireball like aoe spell, which caught the whole party in the blast. She responded with “oops! Soooory!”. The incredible thing is that the character felt like a ditzy blond girl despite the fact the player is a guy. While the character was a typical of a "badly" played girl, it worked perfectly for the sort of character he was intentionally portraying.

And sometimes the stereotypes and archetypes make good starting points. Last time I played Shotgun Diaries, I started with a ditzy blond cheerleader type, as I has the "helpless" archetype who's job is to make life difficult for the others. Eventually a real character grew out of it. As long as the stereotype or archetype isn't going to offend anyone (which typically means that they already know that the player playing it can do better and doesn't buy a word of the stereotype), and it stays in the background enough for a more complete character to develop over time, there is no issue.

Serpentine
2010-09-29, 08:49 AM
Does s/he make it hang out of his/her drawers a little? That would be close to the funniest thing I've ever seen (if true).I don't believe it's happened yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did at some point.

molten_dragon
2010-09-29, 09:21 AM
I don't have any inherent prejudice against it, but in my years of gaming experience, I've never seen it done well (literally not once), and I've seen it done poorly several times. That makes me wary of allowing it.

kamikasei
2010-09-29, 10:27 AM
Almost never, and for sheer conversation-stopping power it's even better to 'slip up' and 'confess' to that instead of to playing cross-gender. Had this not been done over the Internet, it would've been impossible to misconstrue in the first place, so how it ties into face-to-face play I have little idea. (Actually, I have no idea how the idea got into his head in the first place, and when pressed, neither did he.)
I'm confused, can you clarify? I think you're saying that someone you played with in a PbP had a character of a different race to his own, and this caused a kerfluffle when revealed. Can you give more detail on how or why?

I have a hard time seeing how ethnicity could become an issue unless a) you're playing a game set in the real world or b) the player is, for some reason, using stereotypes of real-world ethnicities/cultures in portraying his character from a fictional setting populated with fictional ethnicities/cultures. How does someone get "being black" (say) wrong in, say, Eberron?

It's generally not great purely because people are rubbish at roleplaying an opposite gender. Some people are fine, but most play walking clichés.
I strongly suspect this is pretty much because they expect it to be an issue and overcompensate. Or as WarKitty put it:

It's sort of the same issue, I've always felt that the default RPG character was white and male. So people play white male characters as "normal" characters, but female/non-white characters end up being seen as in need of extra defining.

Sort of like my reaction to "why would you play a cross-gender character?" For me it was always "why not? what's the difference?" I generally can't articulate a reason why my characters should be male or female.
I think too many people have the notion that if they make their character of a different race or gender that has to be an important part of their character. Now, certainly you should bear in mind how your character differs from you if you don't want to end up reflexively playing Yourself In Disguise, but the character is not made up entirely of their differences from you. It's when the thought process becomes "now, how can I ensure that my character, who is female, acts here in a way that clearly identifies her as female, and not male?" even when the situation is entirely gender-neutral that you get problems.

(Well, also when people try to do falsetto. Eeesh.)

My current longest-running character is both female and vaguely South Asian in appearance (though not actually from Earth, so that's pretty much entirely cosmetic). Her background and personality wouldn't really be any different were she male and white (as, to clarify, am I).

I play cross-gender frequently, though not all the time, and I guess my group is a little more liberal than others because they even remember to refer to my character as "she" or "her."
This seems to be a common complaint and always puzzles me. Maybe it's a PbP thing or a matter of first/third person use at the table, but unless you're playing a game with almost no social interaction where 99% of discussion can be handled OOC (all "I" and "you" and players' names rather than "he" or "she" and characters'), I don't really get how people can so easily lose track of basic details like the characters' names, gender, nationality etc.

Serpentine
2010-09-29, 10:31 AM
I keep forgetting that a major (as far as mine go) NPC is male and gay =/
I'm not really surprised that people forget (but then, I do have an extraordinarily bad memory), especially if you're not playing with the character regularly.

Lost Demiurge
2010-09-29, 12:07 PM
My take on this is that if a player can make a character who's an orc or a dwarf or whatever, there's no earthly reason they shouldn't be able to make one of a different gender if they wish.

I play female characters as often as male characters... (Not counting asexual ones like golems or plant-creatures) And usually their gender isn't a huge part of who they are. There are exceptions on both sides, but it's generally no big deal.

When I am the GM, I extend the same courtesy to my PC's. Curiously enough, we've got three PC's in our two regular group who regularly play cross-gender. All of the cross-gender players are female. One's my wife. :D

Ravens_cry
2010-09-29, 02:20 PM
I think the Uncanny Valley explains why cross-gender role play is hard. There is no orcs and the way they are commonly portrayed is just a facet of the human emotional spectrum. And if you play your orc differently then usual, no one can really ay your playing it 'wrong', per say.
But the other gender really exists. We have a much more fine tuned sense of how another gender acts, down to an instinctual level. After all, getting this wrong could have repressions reproductively back in the ol' Savannah, so genes that weren't as good at finding men or woman were selected out.
When someone plays it wrong, it feels very, very wrong.
Now, I fully support cross-gender role play for those who wish to, but I disagree with the 'you play an orc, don't ya, why can't you play a girl/guy?' thought process.

dsmiles
2010-09-29, 03:49 PM
I play female characters as often as male characters... (Not counting asexual ones like golems or plant-creatures) And usually their gender isn't a huge part of who they are. There are exceptions on both sides, but it's generally no big deal.


Ahh...but some species of plant have "male" and "female" plants. Some have both in the same plant. Some have both in the same plant but have to "breed" with another plant.


Just thought I'd throw that out there to blow your mind a little next time you play a plant.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-29, 04:27 PM
Ahh...but some species of plant have "male" and "female" plants. Some have both in the same plant. Some have both in the same plant but have to "breed" with another plant.


Just thought I'd throw that out there to blow your mind a little next time you play a plant.

That being said, even if they are attracted to their own kind, they would have little reason to be sexually attracted to the typical humanoid. So as far as the most of the rest of humanoid society are concerned, they are basically asexual. Heck, if their species routinely self fertilizes, they may be this way among their own kind as well.

Benly
2010-09-29, 05:03 PM
My plant-humanoid is a secret exhibitionist. S/he self-pollinates in public and the mammals don't even notice.

Morithias
2010-09-29, 08:58 PM
After last session, our group has a new universal house rule.

"If someone plays a female character regardless if they are male or female in real life, they must tell everyone of their character's race BEFORE anyone starts flirting with her."

Yeah.....I played a character based on Trakeena. An Antro Monstrous Scorpion. Plus she was only 1 year old due to their life cycle. So yeah, instead of flirting with a 20 year old human, he was flirting with a 1 year old bug.....awkward.

Susano-wo
2010-09-29, 11:47 PM
Warkitty: I definitely agree with you on the difficulty in trying consciously to make your character a certain race. Most of my cahracters tend to be white males, unless something compells me to be a fantasy race. (and I think all the points made about how the unreality of fantasy races removes all teh thorny issues regarding playing them 'wrong.')
However, when I GM (though its just for my wife, I haven't yet GMed a normal campaign), I have no problem making female characters, and fleshing them out. [Though now that I think about it, with the most fleshed out ones, eing female definitely factors into hte character heavily...hmm..]

I think its when I am consciously making a character, I feel like i have to come up with something interesting for me to play a character of a different race or gender. Which makes it intimidating and hard, sometimes.

I guess I would chalk it up to having a default. I don't choose white male characters, that's just the routine. Other races or genders are choices, so it compels me to make a choice, which makes me think about the choice [or perhaps that's over analyse the choice?].

dsmiles
2010-09-30, 07:45 AM
That being said, even if they are attracted to their own kind, they would have little reason to be sexually attracted to the typical humanoid. So as far as the most of the rest of humanoid society are concerned, they are basically asexual. Heck, if their species routinely self fertilizes, they may be this way among their own kind as well.

:smalltongue:obligatory text

Halaster
2010-09-30, 08:26 AM
One of the things brought up here was having two guys/girls (but mostly two guys) flirting at the table.
I think that really mostly depends on how well the group know each other. With relative strangers it is usually a little awkward to have such interaction, even if the players involved are not the same gender. But if you've known your fellow players for long enough and know how they roll, pretty much anything goes.

I once played a gay character who started a relationship with another male character in the group. Both players male, both straight, both characters male, both significant others playing in the same game, no problems at all. But we've been playing for years, we are quite close and we handled it in a mature way, so it worked out. But there are many pitfalls, so I can understand if some people are a little wary of cross-gender play. Immature players, overdone stereotypes, awkward flirting scenes at the table, and so on.

But I wonder, what do these people do about the GM? Do they have a separate male and female GM for the respective NPCs? I've got to play a nymph in a Scion game tonight as a major NPC. I'm male, 6'5'', 210lbs, beard and all. But what am I going to do? Throw out the nymphs? Along with the valkyries, the moirae, and all female deities? Not much fun, I think. And if the GM does it, why shouldn't the players?

dsmiles
2010-09-30, 08:31 AM
I've got to play a nymph in a Scion game tonight as a major NPC. I'm male, 6'5'', 210lbs, beard and all. But what am I going to do?

I am now picturing Nymphs as 6'5" linebackers. :smalltongue:

Wait...:smalleek:

CAN'T UNSEE!!!!!:smalleek::smalleek:
(Yes, that's a double eek!)