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WarKitty
2010-09-27, 05:46 PM
Our group includes a Fighter 4 who wants to build a fast fighter type. She would like to stay in armor that doesn't restrict her movement speed or her dex bonus. Her dex isn't great but it isn't awful (14 I think)? She definitely wants to be in melee but also definitely wants to retain her movement. Her primary weapon is a scythe.

So here's my challenge for you - what dips, feats, and/or level-appropriate magic items would you recommend for her to best take advantage of the style she seems to prefer? She wants to be mobile rather than straight tank-ish.

crazedloon
2010-09-27, 05:56 PM
xeph psychic warrior with the feat which allows extra attacks from Comp Psi this will allow her to boost her speed with the xeph move around with powers and throw down alot of attacks and keep moving

Marnath
2010-09-27, 05:56 PM
Assuming this is in play already, I'd suggest Boots of striding and Springing as a starting point. If she's not too late to change class, a reclass to scout would be a good idea, they're built to be mobile like you describe.

The Shadowmind
2010-09-27, 05:56 PM
Travel devotion or spirit lion barbarian.
Possible:Animal devotion as well(works with either of the above choices).

DeltaEmil
2010-09-27, 05:57 PM
What sort of armor? Full plate? Aside from that, the standard answer would be to take something like a few levels in warblade or lion totem barbarian, which have both stuff to make a melee person run faster, kill stuff with more strength, pouncing to full-attack after walking around, or stuff that grants extra movement and a special attack, and the old and trusted shock-trooper-leaping attack-feat combo as ubercharger.

And if walking around in full-plate, then mithral is always good.

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 05:58 PM
No changing classes or pisonics allowed. I figured to get the totem barbarian for grab, but we'd like to either get her a way to hit and get out of retaliation range or get better AC.

Edit: player absolutely refuses to wear anything heavier than breastplate. And frankly none of us have the gold at this point for mithral.

Ernir
2010-09-27, 06:00 PM
Swordsage is my go-to class for this kind of thing, but if the ToB isn't on your table (or this particular player doesn't like it, or the character is a no-wis type), there's always the good old Dervish. Neither should require a rebuild, especially not the Swordsage.

gallagher
2010-09-27, 06:01 PM
No changing classes or pisonics allowed. I figured to get the totem barbarian for grab, but we'd like to either get her a way to hit and get out of retaliation range or get better AC.

Edit: player absolutely refuses to wear anything heavier than breastplate. And frankly none of us have the gold at this point for mithral.
the only way i can think of at the present moment is either spring attack or get a pair of anklets of relocation or whatever they are called. the ones that allow you to have a 10 foot teleport (i think as an immediate action) 3 times a day?

also, why would she want to hit and run? she wont be able to use her extra attacks then

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-27, 06:02 PM
No changing classes or pisonics allowed. I figured to get the totem barbarian for grab, but we'd like to either get her a way to hit and get out of retaliation range or get better AC.

Dip Cleric for Travel Devotion (Complete Champion).

Unless by "No changing classes" you mean "No Multiclassing" in addition to no Retraining (PH2).


The problems with this strategy is that the Core classes are not made for it (save for Paladins, Rangers, and Druids, no class can get a Move+Full Attack off without Pounce).


And by Lion Totem, he means Complete Champion version (not Unearthed Arcana/SRD). CC version gives Pounce for Full Attacks after a charge.

Shade Kerrin
2010-09-27, 06:03 PM
there's always the good old Dervish.

Seconded. Will cost 4 feats to qualify, but fits the need perfectly

herrhauptmann
2010-09-27, 06:03 PM
If multiclassing, perhaps a swiftblade will provide the character with what they want.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

WarKitty
2010-09-27, 06:05 PM
No retraining is what I mean. To be honest the player is a bit too much of a "rp over optimization" for our group. Not that the rest of us don't roleplay or take the occasional flavor feat, but...well it ends up putting her below the power level of the rest of the group. So a couple of us took it upon ourselves to figure out how to build this character.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-27, 06:08 PM
Dodge (preferably Desert Wind Dodge, or if your group allows Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might, Defensive Moves) > Mobility > Spring Attack > Bounding Assault > Rapid Blitz. Maybe Evasive Reflexes and/or Elusive Target. There's a PrC somewhere that gives accelerated Skirmish, which could also help.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-27, 06:09 PM
No retraining is what I mean. To be honest the player is a bit too much of a "rp over optimization" for our group. Not that the rest of us don't roleplay or take the occasional flavor feat, but...well it ends up putting her below the power level of the rest of the group. So a couple of us took it upon ourselves to figure out how to build this character.

Fighter 4/Swordsage 16 will get the job done then. As long as this player sticks with Desert Wind, it will fit the flavor she is going for.

If Swordsage isn't an option, Dervish.

Eldariel
2010-09-27, 06:45 PM
Fighter 4/Swordsage 16 will get the job done then. As long as this player sticks with Desert Wind, it will fit the flavor she is going for.

If Swordsage isn't an option, Dervish.

Pretty much this. Fighter 4 is a fine cut-off point for a Dervish (gets you Melee Weapon Mastery) & you only need 1-2 more levels (something that grants feats probably) to enter, and then you can just go all the way. And Swordsage does the same, better, if allowed.

Thurbane
2010-09-27, 10:00 PM
I would suggest two things from ToM:

Tooth of Savnok (item) - unslotted item allows you to ignore movement restrictions from armor.

Binder (3 or 4) dip - with the Improved Binding feat, you can bind Paimon, who gives some great abilities for a mobile melee type: +4 untyped bonus to DEX, Dance of Death 1/5 rounds (attack every creature you pass in a move action)...plus some other things like bonuses to Tumble and Whirlwind Attack.

Dr.Epic
2010-09-27, 10:02 PM
Take one level of barbarian: rage is great ability and you gain fast movement.

El Dorado
2010-09-28, 06:28 AM
More of a long term solution: Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327).

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 07:09 AM
No changing classes or pisonics allowed. I figured to get the totem barbarian for grab, but we'd like to either get her a way to hit and get out of retaliation range or get better AC.

Edit: player absolutely refuses to wear anything heavier than breastplate. And frankly none of us have the gold at this point for mithral.

Then she's stuck with a chainshirt until she can pay up a mithral breastplate, which is the heaviest armor she'll ever use before magic.
Travel Devotion is a feat she simply must take. Since she'll be on light armor all the time, Dervish is a good class to take. I am at a loss on magic items he could use.

Amphetryon
2010-09-28, 08:26 AM
She could dip Totemist 2 for the Blink Shirt.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 08:34 AM
She could dip Totemist 2 for the Blink Shirt.

Blink shirt's power relies on a high shaper level. With a dip like that you're stuck with a 10' standard action teleport, which doesn't really help the case.

Amphetryon
2010-09-28, 08:45 AM
Blink shirt's power relies on a high shaper level. With a dip like that you're stuck with a 10' standard action teleport, which doesn't really help the case.

No, if she binds it to her totem chakra it's a move action teleport, per page 61 of Magic of Incarnum, currently in my hand. If this was errata'd, please link.

Demons_eye
2010-09-28, 08:47 AM
I would suggest two things from ToM:

Tooth of Savnok (item) - unslotted item allows you to ignore movement restrictions from armor.

Binder (3 or 4) dip - with the Improved Binding feat, you can bind Paimon, who gives some great abilities for a mobile melee type: +4 untyped bonus to DEX, Dance of Death 1/5 rounds (attack every creature you pass in a move action)...plus some other things like bonuses to Tumble and Whirlwind Attack.

Seconded


No, if she binds it to her totem chakra it's a move action teleport, per page 61 of Magic of Incarnum, currently in my hand. If this was errata'd, please link.

Still rather slow

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 08:49 AM
No, if she binds it to her totem chakra it's a move action teleport, per page 61 of Magic of Incarnum, currently in my hand. If this was errata'd, please link.

I thought it was the heart bind?
Regardless, you're still limited by your essentia in how far you can blink, which is still bad as a totemist 2, where you are stuck teleporting 30' as a move action. 2 levels into a separate class just to replace the normal "30' move" with "30' teleport" is kind of a waste, given there are better options out there.

Greenish
2010-09-28, 08:52 AM
Blink shirt's power relies on a high shaper level. With a dip like that you're stuck with a 10' standard action teleport, which doesn't really help the case.It's 10' per point of Essentia invested, and binding it to totem chakra, as noted, makes it a move action (though you still can't take other actions after using it).

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 09:01 AM
It's 10' per point of Essentia invested, and binding it to totem chakra, as noted, makes it a move action (though you still can't take other actions after using it).

Yeah, which I corrected in my second post and still makes for a subpar movement alternative if you aren't actually investing in the class. Travel devotion alone surpasses "totemist 2 with bound blink shirt" by far because it lets you move your speed (which will always be at least 30' for a character worried about speed) as a swift action for 10 rounds. And it doesn't break your class composition.

Amphetryon
2010-09-28, 09:01 AM
It's 10' per point of Essentia invested, and binding it to totem chakra, as noted, makes it a move action (though you still can't take other actions after using it).

Exactly. Fax suggested Desert Wind Dodge; using Midnight Dodge instead would get another point of Essentia, for instance, and you'd have 2 points just from the 2 level dip. Remember also that a 2 level dip into Totemist gets you 3 Soulmelds. By way of example, those other two Soulmelds could be a Brass Mane for +4 Intimidate, and a Krenshar Mask for +4 on Jump and Move Silently. Those aren't the only options, of course. Add in the 'free' +3 FORT and +3 REF from the dip, and it's a pretty decent deal.

Person_Man
2010-09-28, 09:07 AM
I see most of the good advice has been given. You may wish to peruse the Pounce and Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) thread. If she doesn't want to retrain, I would say that her best option would be Fighter 4/Cleric 1/Warmind 10. Cleric for access to Travel Devotion, Warmind for access to Hustle, Psionic Lion's Pounce, and Psionic Dimension Door.

Alternatively, she could just ride a mount. Even something cheap like a normal warhorse or a figurine of wondrous power (Sandstorm) would drastically improve mobility without having to invest any feats or class levels.

But as others have opined, the best solution would be retraining, or suicide to get another character. Swordsage, Binder, Totemist, Paladin, and Cleric are all much more mobile options.

Demons_eye
2010-09-28, 09:08 AM
Exactly. Fax suggested Desert Wind Dodge; using Midnight Dodge instead would get another point of Essentia, for instance, and you'd have 2 points just from the 2 level dip. Remember also that a 2 level dip into Totemist gets you 3 Soulmelds. By way of example, those other two Soulmelds could be a Brass Mane for +4 Intimidate, and a Krenshar Mask for +4 on Jump and Move Silently. Those aren't the only options, of course. Add in the 'free' +3 FORT and +3 REF from the dip, and it's a pretty decent deal.

You still are limited to putting only two essentia in I believe.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 09:14 AM
You still are limited to putting only two essentia in I believe.

And most of the other gains can be given by other classes / class features, which is why I'm putting a totemist dip in check like that.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-28, 09:21 AM
You still are limited to putting only two essentia in I believe.

Nope. Essentia capacity is based on character level, not meldshaper level.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 09:27 AM
Nope. Essentia capacity is based on character level, not meldshaper level.

I see. So that's 3 essentia you an put in it, 4 if you take an incarnum feat. "Move action 50' teleport" still doesn't beat "swift action <speed> movement" as far as mobility is concerned, does it? The only "ups" i see in that alternative are the fact it can be spammed (at the cost of losing your full attack) and that it bypasses physical barriers.

The OP's concern here is mobility alone, which means going out and about moving around and doing his thing anywhere in the field. As far as I know, denying your full attack overshadows the advantages of the short range teleport.

Greenish
2010-09-28, 09:35 AM
As far as I know, denying your full attack overshadows the advantages of the short range teleport.That reminds me: Blade of Orien. The full attack on teleport only comes online at BoO 10, though, and he probably doesn't have the feats to enter.

ranagrande
2010-09-28, 09:39 AM
Fighter 4/Barbarian 1/Scout 5/Wildshape Ranger 3/Highland Stalker 2/Forest Reeve 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Dragon Devotee 2/Wildrunner 1 if she's an Elf or Half-Elf or Cleric 1 (make sure to take the Celerity domain)

For feats, get Spring Attack as soon as possible. Improved Skirmish and Swift Hunter are also good choices.

This will increase her movement speed by 60 ft, and give her an extra 6d6 Skirmish damage and +4 AC in any round she moves at least 20 ft, which she should always do with Spring Attack.

Edit: Hrm... Fist of the Forest might not work because of the feat requirements. I'll see what I can find to replace it with.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-28, 09:44 AM
I see. So that's 3 essentia you an put in it, 4 if you take an incarnum feat. "Move action 50' teleport" still doesn't beat "swift action <speed> movement" as far as mobility is concerned, does it? The only "ups" i see in that alternative are the fact it can be spammed (at the cost of losing your full attack) and that it bypasses physical barriers.

The OP's concern here is mobility alone, which means going out and about moving around and doing his thing anywhere in the field. As far as I know, denying your full attack overshadows the advantages of the short range teleport.

Is there a particular reason you can't do both? :smallconfused:

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 09:46 AM
Is there a particular reason you can't do both? :smallconfused:

No, not really, but aren't there better alternatives? Any single enhancement to speed already puts the character at 40', if not 50' move, removing any actual movement advantage from the blink other than the barrier bypassing. A hasted character gets more movement from normal move than from the shirt with only 2 levels in totemist.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-28, 09:49 AM
No, not really, but aren't there better alternatives? Any single enhancement to speed already puts the character at 40', if not 50' move, removing any actual movement advantage from the blink other than the barrier bypassing. A hasted character gets more movement from normal move than from the shirt with only 2 levels in totemist.

But it is still movement in two dimensions that provokes AoOs. Short-range teleportation allows you to do things like teleport from the floor to the balcony or get behind the line and strike at their archers.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 09:58 AM
But it is still movement in two dimensions that provokes AoOs. Short-range teleportation allows you to do things like teleport from the floor to the balcony or get behind the line and strike at their archers.
Which can be bypassed by tumbling and jumping, which is improved by your superior speed.

See, what i'm trying to weigh here is the actual advantage of a Totemist2BlinkShirt compared to what else you can get with those 2 levels.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-28, 10:09 AM
Which can be bypassed by tumbling and jumping, which is improved by your superior speed.You still tumble at half-speed unless you take a huge penalty. And as far as jumping, sure, you get a +12 on jump checks. You still need a running start, and that +12 translates to 3 feet vertical distance. A balcony 15 feet overhead requires (at minimum) a DC 28 check with a running start (DC 56 without one), and you still have to pull yourself up with another move action, possibly provoking AoOs from doing so. A blinker takes a single move action and is on the balcony.


See, what i'm trying to weigh here is the actual advantage of a Totemist2BlinkShirt compared to what else you can get with those 2 levels.
1. Get behind enemy lines to attack the softer targets.
2. Get out of difficult situations (ie: threatened by five or six opponents driving your Tumble check through the roof).
3. Move closer while remaining in cover (someone running from cover to cover is still vulnerable to readied action).
4. You can move through barriers (up to and including things like wall of force) without issue, and upon doing so may either work on getting the rest of the party inside (ie: lowering the drawbridge and raising the portcullis) or still remaining effective when you otherwise would've been useless (ie: being resilient sphere'd).

You also get two other soulmelds, which include a lot of various features (elemental resist to stat bonuses to extra natural attacks). BAB +1, +3 Fort, +3 Ref, 4+Int skills off a pretty broad list, d8 HD.

Amphetryon
2010-09-28, 10:10 AM
Which can be bypassed by tumbling and jumping, which is improved by your superior speed.

See, what i'm trying to weigh here is the actual advantage of a Totemist2BlinkShirt compared to what else you can get with those 2 levels.

If you can jump 30' straight up as a move action from a standing start at level 6, without provoking an AoO, I'd like a breakdown of how that's done, please.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 10:17 AM
<sigh> I don't recall claiming totemist levels were the only way to teleport. That's another reason I am questioning the price of taking 2 totemist levels.

Amphetryon
2010-09-28, 10:21 AM
<sigh> I don't recall claiming totemist levels were the only way to teleport. That's another reason I am questioning the price of taking 2 totemist levels.

As Fax and I keep pointing out, the teleport isn't the only benefit. It's a benefit which you're otherwise hard-pressed to replicate in as economical a fashion, and comes with two other soulmelds and a boost to two of your saves - one of which is not a Fighter's good save - as well.

Greenish
2010-09-28, 10:34 AM
See, what i'm trying to weigh here is the actual advantage of a Totemist2BlinkShirt compared to what else you can get with those 2 levels.That's sort of hard to argue against if you don't say what you had in mind.

Seriously, if the options are "totemist 2" and "something else", you (plural) can keep going around for several pages without getting anywhere.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 11:00 AM
That's sort of hard to argue against if you don't say what you had in mind.

Seriously, if the options are "totemist 2" and "something else", you (plural) can keep going around for several pages without getting anywhere.

Yeah I concede because I'm too lazy right now to come up with builds. But "saves, bab, hit dice" isn't an exclusive characteristic of totemists so the levels in (other) classes should take actual class features into account instead of that.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 11:08 AM
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=6239 There's the full sheet for your perusal. Note that drow in this world are good and nice and sweet, while normal elves are evil and power-hungry. This is due to us breaking the world last time; she used to be a standard D&D drow before we broke one of the orbs holding the world together and a bunch of history got redacted.

Edit: PF game with all not setting specific published WoTC 3.5 splat allowed, excepting SC and online-only supplements.

Greenish
2010-09-28, 11:26 AM
I must admit I'm curious as to what "Profession: White Sun" does, and what use is there for a 1 lb. worth of "Pink" she's carrying.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 11:34 AM
I must admit I'm curious as to what "Profession: White Sun" does, and what use is there for a 1 lb. worth of "Pink" she's carrying.

LOL ok. Pink is a setting-specific, highly flammable, alcoholic beverage. We mostly use it to blow things up. The Profession rank is meant to represent her leadership position within the White Sun charitable organization.

Greenish
2010-09-28, 11:37 AM
The Profession rank is meant to represent her leadership position within the White Sun charitable organization.Most curious. So they don't actually do anything?

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 11:43 AM
Most curious. So they don't actually do anything?

The profession rank I don't think does anything. The pink...well like I said, we blow stuff up with it. A lot.

Endarire
2010-09-28, 04:29 PM
A Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) relies on high speed, low armor check penalties, and lots and lots of stabbity/sla****y/smackity death.

Icewraith
2010-09-28, 05:08 PM
Swift Trait. -1 hp/level, +10 foot base speed.

Scout levels, especially in conjunction with swift hunter/swift ambusher, will enable damage while mobile (and if you can work LT BArb's pounce in, lots and lots of damage.) Too bad that Figher 4 isn't swashbuckler 4 though.

Also, are multiclassing penalties in play?

Edit: If that is the case, Scout 3 or 4 + Ranger X will end up working well. Scout 3 fulfils the prerequisite for swift Hunter, Ranger gives you the Hd and BAB of a fighter, favored enemies let you deal skirmish damage to crit-immune targets.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 05:29 PM
Multiclassing is not in play. Neither is retraining.

*sigh* not entirely sure why I bother - she said she doesn't want to use spring attack. It seems she wants to stand in the middle of combat and whack at monsters, but doesn't want to wear armor with dex penalties or a move penalty.

true_shinken
2010-09-28, 07:28 PM
Just take the Hit and Run sub level from Drow of the Underdark. That should be enought to make him happy.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-28, 07:43 PM
Perhaps your player wants higher AC, which is going to be a lot more difficult.

qcbtnsrm
2010-09-28, 07:51 PM
If it is Pathfinder, make sure she sticks with fighter till level 7. At that point she will have a +2 vs all armor checks and to max dex in any armor. She will also be able to move in heavy armor with no movement penalty.

WarKitty
2010-09-28, 08:03 PM
Perhaps your player wants higher AC, which is going to be a lot more difficult.

She doesn't particularly. The rest of the party doesn't want to waste healing on her when she gets hit due to low AC.

Ooo good point Q. That should do it then.