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View Full Version : A bunch of kobolds instead of a character[3.5]

OptimumDinosaur
2010-09-27, 07:14 PM
Hokay! So!
Before I start I'm pretty sure this isn't actually legal by RAW but the GM okay'd it.
Instead of having a 4th level character I plan to just play as a bunch of kobolds whose CR equals 4.
I considered playing 16 first level warriors, but that would be irritating and virtually unplayable. What would be better was 8 1/2 CR kobolds or 4 CR 1 kobolds.

So how do NPC classes affect the CR of a creature? I also considered adepts or one adept and several warriors.
Is there a better way to do this?

Starbuck_II
2010-09-27, 07:26 PM
Hokay! So!
Before I start I'm pretty sure this isn't actually legal by RAW but the GM okay'd it.
Instead of having a 4th level character I plan to just play as a bunch of kobolds whose CR equals 4.
I considered playing 16 first level warriors, but that would be irritating and virtually unplayable. What would be better was 8 1/2 CR kobolds or 4 CR 1 kobolds.

So how do NPC classes affect the CR of a creature? I also considered adepts or one adept and several warriors.
Is there a better way to do this?

4 1/2 Celestial Adept 3 (3+1=4-3=1)?

Urpriest
2010-09-27, 07:28 PM
Groups of monsters don't have CR. Do you mean the sum of their CRs, or their Encounter Level?

OptimumDinosaur
2010-09-27, 07:31 PM
Wait, what? How does that work? I couldn't follow your math there. Also where's half celestial?

The sum of their CR's.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-27, 07:33 PM
Wait, what? How does that work? I couldn't follow your math there. Also where's half celestial?

The sum of their CR's.

A Kobold has CR adjustment = Character level -3 with NPC classes.
4-3=1.

4x 1 = 4. This is 4 Kobolds
4 is the limit of you are putting here. So I said 4 kobolds.

Here is SRd:
Kobold: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm
Challenge Rating
Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3

1/2 Celestial (or 1/2 Fiend which is same CR adjustment)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm
Challenge Rating
HD 5 or less, as base creature +1.

aquaticrna
2010-09-27, 07:35 PM
there is an "encounter level" table for determining the difficulty of fighting multiple monsters. It doesn't scale linearly... otherwise 20 cr 1s would be equal to 1 cr 20, which is clearly not the case. The idea behind the table is that for groups of monsters you replace using their individual CR's for using the more general EL

OptimumDinosaur
2010-09-27, 07:39 PM
Oh okay, I just wasn't aware of what exactly the kobold's CR adjustment was. So i could apply any +1 LA template instead of half celestial, right? Like mineral warrior.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-27, 07:41 PM
Do you really 4 spellcasters?
3rd level Adepts have only 1st level spells.

Instead of Celestial you could make 1 or all of them a full Adept 4 for 2nd levl spells.

And yes, Mineral Warrior adds +1 La or +1 CR so it works great with Kobold.

So you are thinking [Mineral Warrior] Warrior 3?

2010-09-27, 07:41 PM
Wait... so your PC will be a group of NPCs?

That's not going to work. After a few levels, they'll be one shot very easily, and their low BAB will make it so you can't hit what you're attacking except on a critical.

aquaticrna
2010-09-27, 07:43 PM
it might work if they all take swarm fighting, you get +2 for every ally in the enemy's square

The Glyphstone
2010-09-27, 07:44 PM
Also, this is a very bad idea because "you" are fantastically fragile. A single Fireball will oneshot "you", where it would only inconvenience an equivalent-level fighter. You'll struggle immensely to hit or injure anything that's an appropriate-level encounter, because you need multiple sets of equipment and you attack bonuses are far lower than they should be.

I was actually just thinking of a similar idea for another game though - in that case, a bunch of pixies that banded together to animate a suit of clothes and armor, with the equivalent stats for a normal human of that level (and yeah, I've read Pratchett and his Nac Mac Feegle).

OptimumDinosaur
2010-09-27, 07:46 PM
Do you really 4 spellcasters?
3rd level Adepts have only 1st level spells.

Instead of Celestial you could make 1 or all of them a full Adept 4 for 2nd levl spells.

And yes, Mineral Warrior adds +1 La or +1 CR so it works great with Kobold.

So you are thinking [Mineral Warrior] Warrior 3?

It's generally bad to apply templates to casters anyway. Mineral warrior fits flavorwise and mechanically.

As a warrior they'd all have full BAB anyway, so their attack wouldn't be bad. And Mineral Warrior makes them tough. Imma check to see if one dies I could just recruit some more or something.

Yeah, i was planning on taking swarm fighting.

ffone
2010-09-28, 01:28 AM
This clever idea is called Leadership.

Keld Denar
2010-09-28, 02:11 AM
I dunno...4 Kobold Adept 4s with Scorching Ray can put out up to 16d6 damage per round (in 4d6 incriments) for a couple rounds per day. That'll be brutal on most EL appropriate baddies.

You'd be hard up to design a level 4 character that can match that kind of output. You could probably get to 12d6 Scorching Ray with flaws, feats, and traits, but yea, it kinda caps there. If you apply some of those tricks to the Kobold Adepts above, you could get to CL8 at level 4 and double the base damage from 16d6 to 32d6. That would be truely frightening as an encounter, assuming you don't get fireballed...

Edhelras
2010-09-28, 03:46 AM
Wow.... it seems the OP hasn't read this comic: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html before posting... :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2010-09-28, 05:30 AM
Once the player has PC money instead of monster money it throws CR numbers down the toilet. Yet if he has NPC classes and/or 10s for his stats he can't use LA + class levels either. Then there are situations where an individual is tougher than a swarm (like fireballs) and vis versa. Eh, talk to the DM and wing it?

As for deaths I'd find an in-character excuse to hire replacement kobolds.

Knaight
2010-09-28, 05:40 AM
The sum of their CR's.

CR is a logarithmic system with some slight hiccups, doubling the quantity of creatures increases CR by 2, but two CR 1 creatures are only CR 2. This could potentially work in e6, Kobolds are 1/2 CR each with an NPC class, meaning that one would cap out with 16 Kobolds, all replaceable. However, the CR system is already beginning to break down once you get 16 creatures, so it is questionable. If you use PC classes, then you only have 8, and the CR system of expanding numbers still works, mostly.

Zen Master
2010-09-28, 05:42 AM
I like the idea of playing a micro-tribe of kobolds. As long as any member of the tribe survives, I'd just let their numbers regenerate - no one has any clue where kobolds come from anyways. Basically, dig a hole in the ground and by next morning you'll likely find kobolds nesting there.

Maybe you should roll the kobolds randomly? Have a list of different ones - ordinary MM kobolds, some with one or two class levels, a blue, a 'koboldtaur' (what ever that might be?!), and so on?

I could have so much fun with that. Heh =)

AslanCross
2010-09-28, 06:13 AM
A few reasons why I'd recommend against it:

1. As has been mentioned, you get left behind in terms of power. The other party members gain power in the space of one level. How do you divide your growth?

2. As has been mentions, a single AOE spell can take out your avatars.

3. CR does not work that way. It's not proportional to ECL in any way. CR is a very abstract value. Furthermore, CR is often considered ineffective as a usable value (compare: CR 10 red dragon, CR 10 Wizard, CR 10 monk, and a bunch of Lv 1 Kobold commoners that amount to EL 10). A CR 10 Rakshasa only casts as a 7th-level sorcerer. Other monsters have similarly disparate numbers.

4. While it adds to action economy, imagine having a whole bunch of low-level kobolds swinging ineffectively at an armored foe while normal PCs are able to hit effectively.

It's a cute idea, but I'd probably use it only for a very casual and non-serious campaign. In a typical campaign it's either too weak or too broken.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 07:31 AM
A few reasons why I'd recommend against it:

1. As has been mentioned, you get left behind in terms of power. The other party members gain power in the space of one level. How do you divide your growth?

2. As has been mentions, a single AOE spell can take out your avatars.

3. CR does not work that way. It's not proportional to ECL in any way. CR is a very abstract value. Furthermore, CR is often considered ineffective as a usable value (compare: CR 10 red dragon, CR 10 Wizard, CR 10 monk, and a bunch of Lv 1 Kobold commoners that amount to EL 10). A CR 10 Rakshasa only casts as a 7th-level sorcerer. Other monsters have similarly disparate numbers.

4. While it adds to action economy, imagine having a whole bunch of low-level kobolds swinging ineffectively at an armored foe while normal PCs are able to hit effectively.

It's a cute idea, but I'd probably use it only for a very casual and non-serious campaign. In a typical campaign it's either too weak or too broken.

Red Dragon: Not too shabby.

Wizard: Probably not going to be batman unless the DM comes here often.

Monk: A CR 10 monk is actually a level 20 character, so ouch.

Kobold Commoners: Commoner Railgun, anybody? :smalltongue:

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 07:40 AM
Groups of monsters don't have CR. Do you mean the sum of their CRs, or their Encounter Level?

Well, you could always apply the Horde / Swarm template as appropriate.

AslanCross
2010-09-28, 07:49 AM
Red Dragon: Not too shabby.

Wizard: Probably not going to be batman unless the DM comes here often.

Monk: A CR 10 monk is actually a level 20 character, so ouch.

Kobold Commoners: Commoner Railgun, anybody? :smalltongue:

Proves my point, though Commoner Railgun is debatable.

Touche on the monk.

Asheram
2010-09-28, 07:50 AM
4. While it adds to action economy, imagine having a whole bunch of low-level kobolds swinging ineffectively at an armored foe while normal PCs are able to hit effectively.

Remember that that's still a lot of attacks. Now imagine them with bows and rapid shot. That's a Lot of attacks. And then if you split them up you break the action economy completely and could make fights take a very long time.

AslanCross
2010-09-28, 07:56 AM
Remember that that's still a lot of attacks. Now imagine them with bows and rapid shot. That's a Lot of attacks. And then if you split them up you break the action economy completely and could make fights take a very long time.

Well, a lot of attacks doesn't necessarily mean hitting. Look at the poor monk. ):
Either way, it still goes with what I was trying to say: it's either miserably weak or broken.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 08:00 AM
Proves my point, though Commoner Railgun is debatable.

Touche on the monk.

Indeed, the CR system is really crappy for the most part.

For example, a group of three hags shoots their CR way up.

Force cage and magic missiles at will. Dx

Gabe the Bard
2010-09-28, 08:51 AM
4 Kobold Sorcerers casting magic missile at once... Doesn't sound too shabby :smalltongue:

thompur
2010-09-28, 09:28 AM
Or 4 Warlocks. Boost your Dex. Even high level beasties have generally easy touch AC's.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-28, 09:30 AM
Or 4 Warlocks. Boost your Dex. Even high level beasties have generally easy touch AC's.

Nope. Only NPC classes have level -3. 4 Warlock 1's = 4 CR.

sdream
2010-09-28, 10:01 AM
Having a tribe of kobolds actually seems like a fun roleplaying exercise.

Good for scouting as well, although number of individual attacks could be broken and slow down play.

Don't go overboard optimizing them either, the whole enterprise is on DM sufferance and needs to fit into the party as seemlessly as possible.

Definitely suggest looking into swarm or mob template rules with your DM and sticking with one action a turn. Also for humorous effect, talk to your co-players and see if one of them is interested in being a "kobold god".

His/her whole life kobolds have showed up out of nowhere to serve and worship him/her. They are unswervingly adoring but difficult to manage and occasionally troublesome. Eventually, the town got tired of killing them only to have more show up, and asked you to leave as the crowd is slowly growing larger.

(Game rules, apply a mob template and avoid individual sheets, replacement kobolds show up as fast as the rest of the party heals, if the kobold-god dies, they become desperate to ressurect their god).

Skaven
2010-09-28, 12:24 PM
Why not play a single Kobold character with the leadership feat?

Marnath
2010-09-28, 01:20 PM
Definitely suggest looking into swarm or mob template rules with your DM and sticking with one action a turn. Also for humorous effect, talk to your co-players and see if one of them is interested in being a "kobold god".

His/her whole life kobolds have showed up out of nowhere to serve and worship him/her. They are unswervingly adoring but difficult to manage and occasionally troublesome. Eventually, the town got tired of killing them only to have more show up, and asked you to leave as the crowd is slowly growing larger.

I approve of this idea! Sounds like fun. :smallsmile:

Leon
2010-09-28, 10:31 PM
Heh Swarm of Kobolds sounds good fun. Ive been in a game where a PC was a swarm of 300 approx rats for a while, interesting times that one.

Tiki Snakes
2010-09-28, 10:41 PM
Don't forget, it's all about teamwork.

which is to say, aid-other. Reach weapons and ranged.

I second the Kobold-God approach, personally.

Marnath
2010-09-28, 10:57 PM
Bonus points if the Kobold-God Character finds them annoying. "Stop following me! :smallfurious:" "But we love you master!:smallbiggrin:" "stop calling me master!" "Ok, master!" etc.

*basically deekin x8 or so.

Tiki Snakes
2010-09-28, 11:19 PM
You know what? I'm going to have to see if I can get this idea past a DM some day myself.

JaxGaret
2010-09-28, 11:53 PM
Instead of homebrewing something that's probably not going to work anyway, play a Dvati from Dragon Compendium.