Grammar/punctuation question (comma before "then")

[Muz]

Consider the following sentence:

"Jerry ran downstairs, then crawled his way into the kitchen."

I'm told by people who have greater grammatical credentials than I do that there should be no comma before "then" in that sentence. I am unable to get a satisfactory explanation as to what rule says this is so, nor am I able to reconcile the fact that I have seen the above construction in various novels and so forth. I also rather think the sentence reads less well without a comma, as the two things are separate and sequential actions.

So can anyone in the know provide more information about this? I are confused.

[DeadManSleeping]

Regular clause followed by a subordinate clause. It needs a comma. The word "then" does not change this rule. Next!

[Roland St. Jude]

That seems improper. I can't think of a rule of comma usage that justifies it. It's not an appositive phrase nor is it really subordinate. It's not in the form of an "if, then" statement, which calls for a comma.

Seems like a compound predicate with "then" used as an adverb. No comma called for.

Why do you believe there should be a comma there? A vague sense that one belongs or that you've seen it that way isn't going to convince grammarians, and neither is saying that it reads better with the comma. The latter reasoning might convince someone to use it despite the rule, though, which might explain why you've seen it.

[Haruki-kun]

"Jerry ran downstairs and then crawled his way into the kitchen."

Problem solved? :smalltongue:

[Roland St. Jude]

"Jerry ran downstairs and then crawled his way into the kitchen."

Problem solved? :smalltongue:

:smallbiggrin: Seriously. It's almost always easier to reword a sentence than to sort out messy punctuation prescriptions.

[Rae Artemi]

I'm pretty sure that there should be a semicolon there, actually. Though I am half asleep.

[Temotei]

I'm pretty sure that there should be a semicolon there, actually. Though I am half asleep.

"Then crawled his way into the kitchen" wouldn't work on one side of a semicolon. If it was "He then crawled his way into the kitchen," it would work, though.

Also, why is he crawling into the kitchen? Did he fall down the stairs while running?

[Mystic Muse]

:smallbiggrin: Seriously. It's almost always easier to reword a sentence than to sort out messy punctuation prescriptions.

Yes indeed.

Glad to have the time to post without having to lock a thread Roland?

[Temotei]

Yes indeed.

Glad to have the time to post without having to lock a thread Roland?

I've seen, like, fifty posts now with no red text from Roland since the new moderators have taken up the job. It's excellent. I think he even started a game in the recruitment section...yes? :smallbiggrin:

[Roland St. Jude]

Yes indeed.

Glad to have the time to post without having to lock a thread Roland?
Immensely joyful.


I've seen, like, fifty posts now with no red text from Roland since the new moderators have taken up the job. It's excellent. I think he even started a game in the recruitment section...yes? :smallbiggrin:
Yes, an old school BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia game. I'll probably start another one after that one is well underway.

[Semidi]

Here's the rule that I remember it by:

When the dependent clause comes first, you need to use a comma.

([When the dependent clause comes first]: dependent clause
[ you need to use a comma: independent clause])

Independent clauses coming first (e.g. I'm posting on a forum about grammar when I should be writing a paper) require no comma.

[I'm posting on a forum about grammar]: independent clause
[when I should be writing a paper]: dependent clause

So in your example the correct way to write it is:

Jerry ran downstairs then crawled his way down the kitchen.

This actually isn't even a display of the dependent/independent clause rule I don't think because "then crawled his way way down the kitchen" doesn't have a subject. It's just a sentences with two verbs; the "and" which would normally be in the sentence was removed for stylistic purposes, but it is still implied (Jerry ran downstairs and then crawled his way down the kitchen). A comma coming before the and in this case would be improper because the latter part of the sentence is not an independent clause as it lacks a subject. To use a comma in this case it would need to be, "Jerry ran downstairs, and then he crawled his way down the kitchen."

So yeah, good example, it's a bit tricky because "then" is usually used as a subordinate conjunction.

Make sense?


Regular clause followed by a subordinate clause. It needs a comma. The word "then" does not change this rule. Next!

This is wrong just to clarify for everyone else.

http://www.chompchomp.com/terms/subordinateclause.htm

Also looked this up in one or two grammar books I have around.

[Haruki-kun]

I'm pretty sure that there should be a semicolon there, actually. Though I am half asleep.

A... a.... :smalleek:

A semi-colon? Actually USING a semi-colon? What madness is this????? :smalleek: :smalltongue:

[Raistlin1040]

While it's not technically correct, I am known to over-use commas to represent a pause, because I find it to be preferable to the ellipsis. In formal writing, you shouldn't do it too often, but for literature or informal writing, I see nothing wrong with it, aside from the fact that it's sort of superfluous.

As you can see from this post, I like the comma.

[Tirian]

A... a.... :smalleek:

A semi-colon? Actually USING a semi-colon? What madness is this????? :smalleek: :smalltongue:

Semicolons are beautiful things. You win debate points just for using them; your opponent can be horribly intimidated that you are so fluent with grammar.

[Mando Knight]

Semicolons are beautiful things. You win debate points just for using them; your opponent can be horribly intimidated that you are so fluent with grammar.

Unless he points out (correctly) that you're using the semi-colon incorrectly. In that case, you lose any points you would have gained.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Well, son, to answer your question, I've got to tell you Of Grammatology.

Seriously, though, my point being that, honestly, in English, there isn't really a correct answer. Any attempt to make grammar a universal, homogenous system of rules totally failed the second more than one person knew how to read or write, honestly probably the second two people spoke in the "same" language. As long as the meaning is clear, insofar as this is even possible, either a comma or lack thereof should be perfectly acceptable. There's no need for a comma, but it's not like you're breaking a sacred rule of language if you put one there; as someone mentioned, a comma would be used if a subject was present in the second sentence, and one is arguably understood to be present, meaning that you are saying "Jerry ran downstairs[,] [and] then [he] crawled his way down to the kitchen" with some combination of the bracketed items. Really any combination of them has basically the same meaning, and there's no particular reason to include or not include any of them beyond stylistic taste. Even in cases generally seen as "wrong" because they read awkwardly, such as including the comma and the "and" without the "he," the clarity of the sentences isn't really harmed.

[Tirian]

Unless he points out (correctly) that you're using the semi-colon incorrectly. In that case, you lose any points you would have gained.

It's hard to use semicolons incorrectly. Take two closely related simple sentences, and separate them with a semicolon instead of a period. Now the two clauses are more strongly related due to being in the same sentence. The sentences don't even necessarily have to be simple; of course, there are limits to the potential.

On the other hand, it is hard to use ellipses correctly. The manga-related notion that it is there to indicate that the writer is lost in thought at the moment is anathema to proper writing in English. The only use I can think of is when you are omitting words from the middle of a quotation. Well, there is a metamathematical meaning that it continues a sequence in a manner that should be intuitively obvious to the reader like 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ... = 2, but IMHO that should only have a very limited place in formal mathematical writing as well.

[John Cribati]

Here's the rule that I remember it by:

When the dependent clause comes first, you need to use a comma.

([When the dependent clause comes first]: dependent clause
[ you need to use a comma: independent clause])

Independent clauses coming first (e.g. I'm posting on a forum about grammar when I should be writing a paper) require no comma.

[I'm posting on a forum about grammar]: independent clause
[when I should be writing a paper]: dependent clause



That rule only counts when the dependent and independent clauses can be swapped around:

* You need to use a comma when the dependent clause comes first.

* When I should be writing a paper, I'm posting on a forum about grammar.

You can't say "Then crawled his way to the kitchen Jerry ran downstairs."

[Dogmantra]

While it's not technically correct, I am known to over-use commas to represent a pause, because I find it to be preferable to the ellipsis. In formal writing, you shouldn't do it too often, but for literature or informal writing, I see nothing wrong with it, aside from the fact that it's sort of superfluous.

As you can see from this post, I like the comma.

This, in as much as if you're writing informally, do whatever you like with 'em. I, for one, have a tendency to over-use them, but then I also have a tendency to hyphenate things like no-one, which is apparently strange despite "noone" looking like some kind of fake "Ye Olde Englishe" way of spelling noon.

[Semidi]

It's hard to use semicolons incorrectly. Take two closely related simple sentences, and separate them with a semicolon instead of a period. Now the two clauses are more strongly related due to being in the same sentence. The sentences don't even necessarily have to be simple; of course, there are limits to the potential.


Sure it's hard to use a semicolon incorrectly, but it's very easy to use one where it doesn't make sense. For instance, in your last sentence I would remove the semicolon and replace it with the following: "The sentences don't even necessarily have to be simple. Of course, there are limits to the potential." Or, "The sentences don't even necessarily have to be simple, but there are limits to the potential." The two sentences just aren't related enough to use a semicolon. In general, semicolons ought to be used sparingly and usually aren't necessary.


That rule only counts when the dependent and independent clauses can be swapped around:

* You need to use a comma when the dependent clause comes first.

* When I should be writing a paper, I'm posting on a forum about grammar.

You can't say "Then crawled his way to the kitchen Jerry ran downstairs."

Read the whole post. I go on to say, "Jerry ran downstairs then crawled his way down the kitchen," is a single clause--there is no dependent clause--that is why it doesn't make sense swapping it around. It's confusing because of the use of "then" and because it removed the word "and" despite being implied.

[factotum]

The two sentences just aren't related enough to use a semicolon. In general, semicolons ought to be used sparingly and usually aren't necessary.


I'd agree with that. I often see people using a semicolon as a means to glue two almost entirely unrelated sentences together--I was guilty of it myself at one time, but I think I'm better now! (Now the question is, should there have been a dash in that previous sentence? :smallsmile:).

[Aedilred]

I was once accused of using dashes as substitutes for just about every other form of punctuation. My accusator was correct, sadly.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Honestly, Joyce brought punctuation down to zero HP, Faulkner coup-de-grace'd it, and Derrida pretty much cast familicide on grammar. I don't think it's defensible to strictly say "This is/isn't how you use a(n) comma/semicolon/ellipsis/dash," anymore.

[onthetown]

It largely depends on what you're doing.

If it's an English paper or something for a class where you'll be marked on it, or transcribing something for somebody, use whatever they tell you is correct.

If you're writing something personal-ish where that doesn't apply (a story, a poem, a forum post, etc), use your own style.

Personally, I used to overkill commas. After I took my course and started transcribing documents for doctors, I learned that I shouldn't use many at all for that line of work because it clutters up the report -- not to mention that some of them will, while dictating, tell you where to put the commas and periods. It makes it more efficient to read; "The patient has appendicitis and will require immediate treatment," is a lot quicker to browse over than, "The patient has appendicitis, and will require immediate treatment," because we automatically pause at commas in our minds.

As a result of doing this for several hours a day, every day, my own style has changed.

Some of the doctors overkill the commas, though. "The patient today, comma, is a 20-year-old female, comma, whose stress levels are rising, comma, because of this dictation, period."

[Telonius]

Honestly, Joyce brought punctuation down to zero HP, Faulkner coup-de-grace'd it, and Derrida pretty much cast familicide on grammar.

... and e e cummings danced on the grave. :smallbiggrin:

I did find this rule from the Purdue Online Writing Lab (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/607/02/):


15. Don't put a comma after the main clause when a dependent (subordinate) clause follows it (except for cases of extreme contrast).

Incorrect (extreme contrast):She was late for class, because her alarm clock was broken. (incorrect)

Incorrect:The cat scratched at the door, while I was eating.

Correct:She was still quite upset, although she had won the Oscar.(This comma use is correct because it is an example of extreme contrast)


I use a comma whenever I'm trying to separate items that are supposed to occur sequentially. "First socks, then shoes."

[HellfireLover]

There is no correct answer. It's a stylistic quirk more than anything (and punctuation was originaly intended as a guide for breathing when reading the printed word aloud, so saying it sounds better or flows better with a comma is a valid linguistic argument imo.)

If only I could find someone else who loves Oxford commas, but the subject apparently causes great wailing and gnashing of teeth when broached.

[Tirian]

If only I could find someone else who loves Oxford commas, but the subject apparently causes great wailing and gnashing of teeth when broached.

That's peculiar. I saw an informal internet poll about a month ago on the subject in an audience that included a lot of professional writers, and nearly everyone loved the Oxford comma and only avoided it when it was specifically prohibited by the style guide of whoever was paying them at that moment. To bring out the old standby: "I'd like to thank my parents, Mother Teresa and God."

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

If it's an English paper or something for a class where you'll be marked on it, or transcribing something for somebody, use whatever they tell you is correct.

Transcribing something is one thing, but I think it impresses professors/terrifies them into giving you a good grade if you tell them you'll be writing a "literary essay," for your paper, then gradually destroy the foundations of language.

[CrimsonAngel]

A... a.... :smalleek:

A semi-colon? Actually USING a semi-colon? What madness is this????? :smalleek: :smalltongue:

I'm not sure what sort of madness this is; madness is usualy good, though.

[Danne]

Hi, English major here. IMO, you want the comma. As people have discussed there's no hard and fast rule, but if you read it aloud you naturally want to pause there. If you say it all at once (like you would without a comma) it comes out sounding rushed and weeeeiiiirrrdd.

It's a style question, really, one that I happen use a lot in my own creative writing. (Examples from recent stories of mine, for comparison: "He grinned, then winked at her." "He stuck his tongue out at me, then shook his head in exasperation.")

Though, to be honest, it's not really something you should use in formal writing. If this is for an essay or something, rework the sentence like previous posters have suggested. If you're just writing a story, though, then you're good to go! :smallbiggrin:

[onthetown]

Transcribing something is one thing, but I think it impresses professors/terrifies them into giving you a good grade if you tell them you'll be writing a "literary essay," for your paper, then gradually destroy the foundations of language.

It depends on the professor, though. Some teachers are freaking strict. Others like to see your own style.

[Fiery Diamond]

My opinion is as follows:

1) If you are writing a paper or something else formal, it is a good idea to rework the sentence so that you no longer need to worry about it. The easiest method is to put an "and" before "then."

2) If you are writing a story or something informal, it really is up to you. However, if I were in your situation, I would use the following guideline:

"If the sentence would normally have an 'and' which I have decided to omit, then I will replace the 'and' with a comma. I never leave out conjunctions without replacing them with punctuation."

[Danne]

My opinion is as follows:

1) If you are writing a paper or something else formal, it is a good idea to rework the sentence so that you no longer need to worry about it. The easiest method is to put an "and" before "then."

2) If you are writing a story or something informal, it really is up to you. However, if I were in your situation, I would use the following guideline:

"If the sentence would normally have an 'and' which I have decided to omit, then I will replace the 'and' with a comma. I never leave out conjunctions without replacing them with punctuation."

I agree wholeheartedly. Very well said.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

It depends on the professor, though. Some teachers are freaking strict. Others like to see your own style.

The only time I ran into a problem was with a neuroscience professor, and I really only have myself to blame for even thinking that that would work.

[onthetown]

I've never had an English teacher that wanted to see my own style when I was writing an essay. Creative writing assignments, sure. But the rest of them were so up their ass about the curriculum that they deducted one mark per error, including what they thought about commas and other things that are usually style choices. It only got worse in sciences and history.

Kind of teaches you to do what they want you to do if you have any intention of passing the course, which is why I noted the difference between essay stuff and personal writing.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I got marked off for using passive voice, one time, but I was quoting Charles "Mother****ing" Dickens, so I got those points back. Otherwise, I really haven't had a problem doing stylistically just about whatever I wanted.

[Cespenar]

Hi, English major here. IMO, you want the comma. As people have discussed there's no hard and fast rule, but if you read it aloud you naturally want to pause there. If you say it all at once (like you would without a comma) it comes out sounding rushed and weeeeiiiirrrdd.

I've always checked my sentences like that as well. +1.

[Sandy]

Hi, English major here. IMO, you want the comma. As people have discussed there's no hard and fast rule, but if you read it aloud you naturally want to pause there. If you say it all at once (like you would without a comma) it comes out sounding rushed and weeeeiiiirrrdd.

It's a style question, really, one that I happen use a lot in my own creative writing. (Examples from recent stories of mine, for comparison: "He grinned, then winked at her." "He stuck his tongue out at me, then shook his head in exasperation.")

Though, to be honest, it's not really something you should use in formal writing. If this is for an essay or something, rework the sentence like previous posters have suggested. If you're just writing a story, though, then you're good to go! :smallbiggrin:

Hi. Frankly, I've always believed the English language needs a "semi-comma." We have so many ways of giving meaning to words, when we speak and are so limited when writing. There are a hundred times in a verbal conversation when I pause,,,,,for empahsis. Yet, there is no way to indicate that, in writing. I'm ready to join a movement to have a semi-comma added to our standard punctuation.

[The Great Wyrm]

If this thread is nearly six years old, then this is thread necromancy.