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jpreem
2010-09-28, 04:23 AM
Casting from a scroll eliminates the need for material component, because it has allready been used to create the scroll. Several spells though spend different amounts of components depending on the situation they are cast on.
For example animate dead - requires 25gp of onyx per hit die of the creature being animated. So when I aquire a scroll of animate dead, then how do I know how many hit dice i can animate and how much material components have been used to create it. Or will creating a scroll of animate dead always cost 25 gp of onyxes and you can save money by animating large creatures via them :D.
Also the same with wands. Do they have a value of onyx spent per charge or somtehing. Can i use multiple charges to animate bigger creatures, when they have spent only 25 gp of onyx per charge.(But that means they have pumped 25X50Gp worth of onyx in this wand)

ericgrau
2010-09-28, 04:29 AM
Yes you pay the material component for each charge. As for spells with variable cost, I'm not sure if there's a clear rule on it. I think it's even suggested officially (since there is no rule unless I'm remembering wrong) that either the player is limited to the amount of material components used in creating the item or as another option (DM's choice) the player may supply additional material components himself.

As for paying X and getting Y, that falls under "Just because there's no rule for it, that doesn't make the rule the player's choice".

jpreem
2010-09-28, 04:33 AM
I guess a good decision might be that identify also says you how much components were used to create this magical item.
The supply additional components when needed houserule sounds decent too.

DonEsteban
2010-09-28, 04:47 AM
I'd find it more flavorful if the scroll came with an amount of onyxes which still have to be placed in the corpses mouths, but that'd be totally a house rule.

A standard issue divine AD scroll costs 625gp, 250gp more than a standard level 3 divine scroll. So, obviously, 10 onyxes have been used to create it and you could animate 10HD of undead with it. You'd probably know this if you successfully cast Read Magic on the scroll.

Similar logic for wands. You can't save expensive material components by using scrolls or wands (lest the universe implode).

jpreem
2010-09-28, 04:54 AM
Would this houserule for wands make sense or is it too lenient on players :D
If you got a wand of animate dead with 10 charges, and for each charge the creator has spend 25gp of onyx. Then you can choose if you want to animate 10 commoners :D or 1 ten-headed hydra :D

ericgrau
2010-09-28, 04:57 AM
I like all of the above house rules and I don't think any of them would break the game. In fact I think otherwise the guessing game would make the scrolls almost useless.

Though for the last option the players are losing a lot of money on the hydra. Maybe if the wand had 10 charges, but it had 20 onyxes (or however many) built in which you could spend however you wanted. So you could do a hydra and 9 weak things, for example. Or 10 creatures with 2 HD each. Or etc.

jpreem
2010-09-28, 05:05 AM
Hmm yes that would be also an idea - there would not be component per charge, but charges and spent components are different statistics. And you yourself choose how you combine them when using the wand.
Bit of an accounting work though. maybe I'll use it. But when not then deffinetly the houserule I posted previously - I think it would cheer players up when they can well use these kind of items in many different ways.

Coidzor
2010-09-28, 05:16 AM
^: That sliding pool sounds the best to me, allowing one to supply one's own at times or in a pinch use up the wand's reserves.

Hm... You can't create more than 2x your CL (capped at 20) HD of undead per casting. So, conservatively, a cleric creating it as the minimum CL needed to make use of the craft wand feat and adding the onyx in order to animate as many HD of undead as is warranted by the CL of the wand... would add 250 gp of onyx per charge or 12500 gp total to the price of the wand, doubling the price of the wand, making it equivalent to that of a 4th level wizard wand.

So, a steeper price to pay for them when they have to craft it themselves, and a waste of money if they don't animate the maximum HD of undead they can with each individual charge, but allows the consumable to represent more character wealth and potentially last longer... Also has a cap on the max HD of undead created that may be lower than the max HD of the undead creatable by the spell itself, as this specific example is just a CL 5 wand, so zombies can be made of creatures up to 5 HD and skeletons out of creatures of up to 10.

Edhelras
2010-09-28, 05:35 AM
Somewhat related to this discussion, I wonder:

How do you know (I mean, determine) the primary spellcasting stat of the caster who made the wand or scroll, for those spells that rely on said stat?

I'm thinking of those wands and scrolls that are listed in the DMG. Like a Wand of Color spray, where the Will save DC is determined by the INT modifier.

Or does the guy who is using the Wand use his own Stat modifier, for determining those effects?

jpreem
2010-09-28, 05:43 AM
Hmm yes thats a question quite related to the thread :D, I guess identify for items and read magic, desipher shrift for scrolls should revela also that.
I imagine now scrolls with signatures - this scroll has been written by a moderately wise ordained priest of Wee-Jas rank 3 (dagger bearer):smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2010-09-28, 05:44 AM
Somewhat related to this discussion, I wonder:

How do you know (I mean, determine) the primary spellcasting stat of the caster who made the wand or scroll, for those spells that rely on said stat?

I'm thinking of those wands and scrolls that are listed in the DMG. Like a Wand of Color spray, where the Will save DC is determined by the INT modifier.

I think the simplest thing is to just use elite array, apply racial mods, and put points from levelling into the casting stat...


Or does the guy who is using the Wand use his own Stat modifier, for determining those effects?

Nope, gotta have Staffs for that, IIRC.

ericgrau
2010-09-28, 06:11 AM
It seems like the minimum caster stat is always used, which is 10 + spell level.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 06:16 AM
Nope, gotta have Staffs for that, IIRC.

Staves use the user's caster stat. Other spell trigger and spell completion items use the minimum necessary.

Duke of URL
2010-09-28, 06:24 AM
It seems like the minimum caster stat is always used, which is 10 + spell level.

Correctamundo.


Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

dextercorvia
2010-09-28, 12:14 PM
As a side note, Eternal Wands don't require the material components to create. They do have a set caster level, though.

Coidzor
2010-09-30, 05:35 AM
As a side note, Eternal Wands don't require the material components to create. They do have a set caster level, though.

Making them ok for daily mook production but less than desirable for something that can meaningfully contribute beyond low levels.