PDA

View Full Version : DMM and Binder



Heliomance
2010-09-28, 06:43 AM
Tenebrous gives you the ability to turn undead every 5 rounds. Does this mean that you could use it to apply any piece of DMM once every five rounds? If so, that's horrible, broken and disgusting.

OMG PONIES
2010-09-28, 06:51 AM
Hmm, it sounds like it grants one turn undead use. I know it has the whole "as a cleric of your EBL," which grants 3+CHA turns/day, but it seems like (at least by RAI), you gain 1 turn attempt every 5 rounds--not enough for Divine Metamagic.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 07:04 AM
Tenebrous gives you the ability to turn undead every 5 rounds. Does this mean that you could use it to apply any piece of DMM once every five rounds? If so, that's horrible, broken and disgusting.

No, not really.
You don't get multiple turn undeads. You get ONE. It can be used more than once as it refreshes, but it's still One. UŮo. Ein. 1. Um. Ichi.
Thus it can't ever power Divine Meta Magic on its own.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-28, 07:09 AM
Hmm, it sounds like it grants one turn undead use. I know it has the whole "as a cleric of your EBL," which grants 3+CHA turns/day, but it seems like (at least by RAI), you gain 1 turn attempt every 5 rounds--not enough for Divine Metamagic.
Unless you're using it on a +0 Metamagic Adjustment effect (such as Invisible Spell, from Cityscape).

Amphetryon
2010-09-28, 07:22 AM
This was discussed briefly in the Shugenja handbook on BG and WotC:


the text for Tenebrious - the Turn Undead vestige - says 'as a Cleric' and then goes on to say 'after you use this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.' The number of DMs who would read the latter as 'You get unlimited Turn Undead per day; rock and roll!' is probably calculable on the fingers of one kneecap. A more generally accepted reading is that the 'cannot do so again for 5 rounds' is an additional limitation on Tenebrious' granted ability.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 07:34 AM
What if you take extra turning?

Sliver
2010-09-28, 07:52 AM
Unless you're using it on a +0 Metamagic Adjustment effect (such as Invisible Spell, from Cityscape).

Which you will want to spend a feat to be able to use DMM on. :smallamused:

OMG PONIES
2010-09-28, 08:34 AM
I'm actually going to change my opinion on this issue. I think that, RAW, Tenebrous binders can use this ability to power Divine Metamagic. However, it's not as limitless as they would like to think. You gain Turn/Rebuke "as a cleric of your effective binder level," which means you gain 3+CHA turn attempts per day. The "once every five rounds" limitation from Tenebrous is basically just an on/off switch for the ability, not a reset button. Sure, you can use Tenebrous turn attempts to DMM a spell once every five rounds. However, once you've used up your 3 + CHA attempts for the day, you're done until tomorrow.

Thurbane
2010-09-28, 05:19 PM
FWIW, I also read the ability as granting Turn Undead once every 5 rounds...

Kantolin
2010-09-28, 05:25 PM
I also agree that the 1/5rnds is an additional limitation.

I'm relatively okay with unlimiting it for certain applications, though. After all, in most of my games, a cleric using their turn undead to /turn undead/ isn't a terribly big deal ^_^

'course, using turn undead to turn undead is very unpopular nowadays.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-09-28, 05:34 PM
"As an <X> of her level" is never used to refer to the number of times per day anywhere else. Itís only used to indicate what the power level of the ability is. A 10th level character who has the ability to cast fireball as a sorcerer of his level does not necessarily get the ability to cast fireball 14 times per day.

For a similar situation, the paladin turns undead as a cleric three levels lower, but it is necessary to indicate separate from that how many times per day they get.

I donít think thereís any other vestige ability that isnít ďat will, every 5 rounds,Ē either. And letís face it, unlimited turn undeads isnít a game-breaker unless you do power it with divine feats. So saying once every five rounds shouldnít be a problem for the most part.

Keld Denar
2010-09-28, 05:42 PM
Its still good for powering lesser Divine and Devotion feats. Divine Vigor and Divine Shield both last for a number of rounds equal to your Cha score. If your Cha score is 5+, you can keep one or the other up at all times. If your Cha score is 10+, you could theoretically keep both up at all times. Probably not terribly feasable to maintain in combat, but out of combat its a 3 second investment every 30 seconds. You'll get REALLY good at counting to 27 subconsciously in order to keep the ability active at all times. Enjoy your free AC and movement speed bonus!

Benly
2010-09-28, 05:45 PM
Another interpretation I've seen is that Tenebrous doesn't grant uses per day at all, which are what you need to sacrifice to power divine feats. Instead, the powering mechanism is treated as a separate resource entirely (one which, as things stand, does not have anything that is powered by it besides Tenebrous's turn/rebuke ability.) A bit of a nitpicky reading, but not unworkably so.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-28, 05:51 PM
'course, using turn undead to turn undead is very unpopular nowadays.That's be because it's almost never useful after about level 5. Intelligent undead of the appropriate CR almost always have turn resistance, and are extremely difficult to Turn unless you're rather focused on it. Nonintelligent undead of the appropriate CR have absurd numbers of hit dice, and are almost impossible to turn.

Sure, it's useful, somewhat, against the hordes of low-level undead... but a generic Cleric-10 can get up to 14 hit die undeads (on a good roll), and take out.. maybe 20 hit dice of undead. So those ten CR 1/2 Human Zombies go poof... but that CR-6 Gray Render Zombie is untouched. Oh yes, and those ten CR 1/2 Human Zombies? That's an encounter level of 6 or so, or about 1/3rd the zombie population in an encounter level 10 human zombie horde (requires 32 human zombies). Unless you specifically focus on the ability, it's close to useless for actually turning undead, and is something you can reasonably expect to come up maybe twice in a campaign once you're above about 5th level, unless the DM is specifically throwing you a bone.

mabriss lethe
2010-09-28, 05:53 PM
there are a few binder abilities that aren't at will or 1/5 levels, but since one of them is already part of the Tenebrous package (flicker) it would be a real killer to nerf Mr. T with another limitation like that. Also, said abilities are *always* given with the number of times per day they can be used in the vestige's text

Thurbane
2010-09-28, 05:59 PM
Its still good for powering lesser Divine and Devotion feats. Divine Vigor and Divine Shield both last for a number of rounds equal to your Cha score. If your Cha score is 5+, you can keep one or the other up at all times. If your Cha score is 10+, you could theoretically keep both up at all times. Probably not terribly feasable to maintain in combat, but out of combat its a 3 second investment every 30 seconds. You'll get REALLY good at counting to 27 subconsciously in order to keep the ability active at all times. Enjoy your free AC and movement speed bonus!
Yep, some good uses for Turning/Rebuking other than using it on undead...nice for a KotSS who binds Tenebrous every day, or Tenebrous Apostate.

Keld Denar
2010-09-28, 06:03 PM
Turning isn't that hard to amp up though. You can get like, a +18 to your effective turning level with a handful of items, and tweak out your check so that you are always turning at +4. That means that a level 10 cleric can now turn a 32 HD undead. Even with Turn Resistance of +8 (4 natural, 4 from an item), that'll dust a level 24 lich wizard. At level 10...

Not to mention that if you have Binder levels, you probably have UMD ranks, and a Wand of Turn Anathema and a good alignment will let you turn evil outsiders as well. Outsiders tend to scale 1:1 on a HD:CR basis, and don't have turn resistance, and thus are easy prey for someone who venerates Tenebrous.

mabriss lethe
2010-09-28, 06:03 PM
I'm still very fond of the Tenebrous-Healing Devotion trick since it gives infinite healing while relying on everyone else's action economy instead of yours.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-09-28, 08:08 PM
Hmm the BG shujenga book must have noted my old simple QA

basically its not unlimited. Its still as cleric (3+cha mod per day)

/thread

mabriss lethe
2010-09-28, 08:43 PM
Hmm the BG shujenga book must have noted my old simple QA

basically its not unlimited. Its still as cleric (3+cha mod per day)

/thread

I disagree:

This is a case where specific trumps general.

In all other cases where vestige abilities are given daily use restrictions they are explicitly pointed out. Examples - Karsus: Karsus' Touch (usable Binder Level/Day -1/5 rounds.) Dantalion: Thought Travel (Binder level/Day -1/5 rounds.) Tenebrous: Vessel of Emptiness (1/day. 2/day @13th lvl and 3/day@19th)

In all other classes that grant turning, the text "usable 3+ charisma modifier times per day" is always expressly stated. Tenebrous's Turn/Rebuke has no such accompanying text and and should not, under any circumstances, have two abilities with limited per-day usage.

JaxGaret
2010-09-28, 10:13 PM
This was discussed briefly in the Shugenja handbook on BG and WotC:


Sure, we broke the game with Batman Wizards and CoDzilla in core. But allowing your Binder a single Turn Attempt every 5 rounds? Nope, that's way too cheesy to allow, you horrible munchkin.

10characters

OMG PONIES
2010-09-29, 08:52 AM
In all other classes that grant turning, the text "usable 3+ charisma modifier times per day" is always expressly stated. Tenebrous's Turn/Rebuke has no such accompanying text and and should not, under any circumstances, have two abilities with limited per-day usage.

Actually, it is stated, just not using the syntax you're used to. Consider the following:


You can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of your effective binder level..."

"As a cleric..." means that, if you want to know how this ability works, you reference the relevant text on clerics turning/rebuking undead, since the ability works the same way. So, how many turn attempts per day do I get? Turning to the Player's Handbook to find out how our nifty power works, we find:


A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.

Since the Tenebrous ability functions "as a cleric," we receive the same number of attempts per day. Generally, clerics can turn undead every round if they want to, as long as they have turn attempts remaining. However, Tome of Magic provides a specific exception to this below:


Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.

Okay, so you walk around with all your groovy unused turn attempts as long as you have Tenebrous bound. However, once you "use" the ability (whether you spend one attempt to turn undead or multiple attempts to fuel DMM) BAM, you're in time out, Mister. Now, the ability doesn't go away--you just can't use it again for 5 rounds.

The restrictions are explicitly pointed out: you gain turn undead as a cleric, but you can only use it once every 5 rounds.


Sure, we broke the game with Batman Wizards and CoDzilla in core. But allowing your Binder a single Turn Attempt every 5 rounds? Nope, that's way too cheesy to allow, you horrible munchkin.

That's not the problem. The problem is allowing your Tenebrous Apostate 3+CHA turn attempts every 5 rounds. A daily allotment that instead refreshes every 30 seconds is cheesy.

Sliver
2010-09-29, 09:26 AM
That's not the problem. The problem is allowing your Tenebrous Apostate 3+CHA turn attempts every 5 rounds. A daily allotment that instead refreshes every 30 seconds is cheesy.

The ability let's you use a single turn undead, no more than once per 5 turns. That's not cheesy. When the text says "turn undead as a cleric of your binder level" it means that the checks are based on your binder level instead of cleric level, not that you can use this ability only 3+Cha times per day.

OMG PONIES
2010-09-29, 10:00 AM
The text reads that I gain turn undead as a cleric of my EBL. A cleric of my EBL gets 3+CHA attempts per day, so I do too. There is no text stating anything to the contrary.

Once I spend one or more attempts in a single action, I can't spend any more for 5 rounds.

Sliver
2010-09-29, 10:16 AM
The text reads that I gain turn undead as a cleric of my EBL. A cleric of my EBL gets 3+CHA attempts per day, so I do too. There is no text stating anything to the contrary.

Once I spend one or more attempts in a single action, I can't spend any more for 5 rounds.

No, the amount of turn attempts has nothing to do with anyones cleric level. When it says that you turn undead as a cleric of your equal level, it refers to the method, not the amount. All other binder abilities that can be used a limited time per day say so clearly and do not refer to other sources. On what do you base that this one is different?

Since you know that the interpretation of "allowing your Tenebrous Apostate 3+CHA turn attempts every 5 rounds." is surely not what the ability gives you, because it says nothing about 3+cha when everywhere else when you gain turn attempts it tells you the amount, why do you say that the only instance where you get turn undead and it doesn't tell you that you have a daily limit, there is a daily limit?

None of the other 1/5 turn abilities tell you "there is no daily limit to how much you can use this" unless there is such a limit. What is so cheesy about a single turn undead, powered as if your cleric level is your EBL? It's not cheesy, and it is RAW.

OMG PONIES
2010-09-29, 10:58 AM
Let's consider the Sacred Exorcist:


Sacred exorcists can turn undead as clerics do.

It doesn't mention anything about a number of attempts per day, but that's because it doesn't need to. They turn as clerics do, and clerics turn 3+CHA times/day. Compare this with the granted ability of Tenebrous:


You can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of your effective binder level.

Again, the number of attempts is not listed because it has been addressed. A cleric of my EBL has 3+CHA attempts per day, so I do as well. To suggest that Tenebrous binders do not gain 3+CHA turn attempts per day is to imply that either:

The phrases "as clerics do" and "as a cleric of your effective binder level," provide class features that function entirely differently, or
Sacred Exorcists do not gain 3+CHA turn attempts/day.

mabriss lethe
2010-09-29, 03:32 PM
Also note the following:

Tome of Magic p.19

"Some of the supernatural abilities granted by vestiges provide constant benefits once activated. If the duration of a particular effect is not stated or implied by the ability description, assume it is constant. Typically, binders take a few moments to activate such abilities immediately after making a pact with a vestige. Most effects that are not constant can be used only once every 5 rounds. (see the ability description for details.)"

These guidelines take precedence, since they directly deal with binders using vestiges. "Once every 5 rounds" replaces "3+Cha modifier times per day" for the purposes of this ability. If it were not the case, the Binder text, the only one that matters, would have specified it's usability as "3+Cha modifier times per day, once every 5 rounds."

Amphetryon
2010-09-29, 03:44 PM
So you're saying that "as a Cleric" is irrelevant, or are you saying that Clerics can turn once every 5 rounds in addition to the times granted by the text of their Turn Undead ability? Or, are you choosing to ignore part of the Binder's written Turn Undead text?

OMG PONIES
2010-09-29, 03:54 PM
Mabriss, that is the strongest argument in favor of a 1 attempt/5 rounds reading that I've seen. Had that come out sooner, this would probably be a shorter thread. Using that information, it seems like maybe the ability should have been worded:

"You can turn/rebuke undead much like a cleric of your EBL, with the exception that you can only use 1 turn attempt every 5 rounds."

Amphetryon
2010-09-29, 04:11 PM
The qualifiers "some," "typically," and "most" would appear to be pertinent.

Kallisti
2010-09-29, 04:12 PM
He's choosing to interpret "as a cleric of his EBL" as text about the power and effectiveness of the turning check, a fairly reasonable reading given that other abilities that say "as a(n) X of his/her level" are interpreted that way.

OMG PONIES
2010-09-29, 04:13 PM
I still want someone to answer my question about the Sacred Exorcist. :smallbiggrin: