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Mordrigar
2010-09-28, 07:14 AM
I've written this on Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW) XIV topic but answer was "This question should have its own thread" So i'm asking it again here.

Is there a way to create undead servants that have their own minds, class levels and abilities etc. with a spell or something? I'm looking for things like Vampire's "Create Spawn (SU)" ability.
From SRD:

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 07:19 AM
I've written this on Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW) XIV topic but answer was "This question should have its own thread" So i'm asking it again here.

Is there a way to create undead servants that have their own minds, class levels and abilities etc. with a spell or something? I'm looking for things like Vampire's "Create Spawn (SU)" ability.
From SRD:

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.


Animate dead can create Bone and Corpse creatures, both from Book of Vile Darkness, which are intelligent.

Edit: They can take class levels, too. So you can just pay for their hit dice to be class levels instead of undead hit dice.

Leon
2010-09-28, 07:24 AM
Are you ok with using non Different Settings books?


Thralls from Iron Kingdom are (Depending on what type you make) Intelligent Undead.
By the rules given in the IKCG they are quite expensive to craft but its a option and you can always negotiate with your DM about altering it.
(My change to it was the EXP and Gold Cost was Per Hit Die rather than Hit Point)



Also while i don tknow if there is a way to create them or not Karrnathi Zombies and Skeletons are Intelligent.

Mastikator
2010-09-28, 07:25 AM
Wights, wraiths and technically ghouls are intelligent, or at the very least conscious. So TECHNICALLY they should be able to take class levels.

Can be created with Create Undead (cleric 5 or 6 I think).

Mordrigar
2010-09-28, 07:35 AM
Animate dead can create Bone and Corpse creatures, both from Book of Vile Darkness, which are intelligent.

Animated creatures lose all their class levels and abilities iirc.


Are you ok with using non Different Settings books?


Thralls from Iron Kingdom are (Depending on what type you make) Intelligent Undead.
By the rules given in the IKCG they are quite expensive to craft but its a option and you can always negotiate with your DM about altering it.
(My change to it was the EXP and Gold Cost was Per Hit Die rather than Hit Point)


Also while i don tknow if there is a way to create them or not Karrnathi Zombies and Skeletons are Intelligent.

May bad, didn't write it up there. I'm only allowed 3.5ed. But all books of this settings are available (including web appendixes, magazines etc.)


Wights, wraiths and technically ghouls are intelligent, or at the very least conscious. So TECHNICALLY they should be able to take class levels.

Can be created with Create Undead (cleric 5 or 6 I think).

But created undeads are not under control of you. I still have to cast command or control spells on them. I'm looking for eternal servants. For example, you've killed your deadly rival. He is a super fighter. I want to raise him as my undead servant with his own mind and abilities.

Like Strahd's vampire spawns (from Ravenloft) or Lord Soth's 13 Death Knights (from Dragonlance)

Coidzor
2010-09-28, 07:48 AM
The closest thing for that which I can think of would still be Animate Dread Warrior from Unapproachable East. But it makes them... dumb when they come back. :/ So no casters, or at least, no INT casters. I don't think Wis or Cha suffer too much, but they can't take complex instructions as a special quality.

But, IIRC, there's no actual control limit on them and they're controlled when raised.

Hmm, there might be something that has create spawn and applies an intelligent template...

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 07:55 AM
Animated creatures lose all their class levels and abilities iirc.

Yes, but Bone and Corpse creatures can take class levels. So if you were to animate a 5 HD corpse creature, it could be a 5th level barbarian, no?

I just remember playing a bone creature true necromancer. He had a fedora and an everburning cigar, Jet teeth and black star sapphire eyes (VERY EXPENSIVE) and was going to undergo a process to replace his bones with onyx.

hamishspence
2010-09-28, 08:03 AM
Create Undead (greater?) can create Bone Creatures and Corpse Creatures- but not Animate Dead.

It doesn't say whether it scales with level though- do you have to be higher level to create a Bone Creature with higher Hit Dice?

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 08:06 AM
Create Undead (greater?) can create Bone Creatures and Corpse Creatures- but not Animate Dead.

It doesn't say whether it scales with level though- do you have to be higher level to create a Bone Creature with higher Hit Dice?

Ah, thank you.
I'm not quite sure... with this cheese you could create one bone elf with enough levels of wizard to make any GM cry.

hamishspence
2010-09-28, 08:08 AM
Alternatively, Bone creatures (or corpse creatures) come back with whatever levels they had in life.

So if you could find and animate a 20th level elf wizard corpse, yes, you'd have a very powerful minion at your disposal (might rule you can't Create Undead with these templates, if they would be higher level than you).

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 08:12 AM
Alternatively, Bone creatures (or corpse creatures) come back with whatever levels they had in life.

So if you could find and animate a 20th level elf wizard corpse, yes, you'd have a very powerful minion at your disposal (might rule you can't Create Undead with these templates, if they would be higher level than you).

Wait, they come back with what levels they had in life?

Or are you just thinking up something to stop your players from all playing necromancers with level 30 wizard minions? :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2010-09-28, 08:16 AM
Bone creature and Corpse creature are templates, so that might be how they work.

A bit like Lich or Death Knight in that respect.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 08:23 AM
Bone creature and Corpse creature are templates, so that might be how they work.

A bit like Lich or Death Knight in that respect.

Hmmm, perhaps. But I'm hopeful that it works on how many hit dice you want to give it.

If not, it's still a better idea than most zombies and skeletons, as it gets the abilities it had in life.

Coidzor
2010-09-28, 08:47 AM
Or are you just thinking up something to stop your players from all playing necromancers with level 30 wizard minions? :smalltongue:

You mean other than the combination of scarcity (what kills a level 30 wizard and leaves a corpse a sub-epic character could get to?) and intel?

Morph Bark
2010-09-28, 12:17 PM
You mean other than the combination of scarcity (what kills a level 30 wizard and leaves a corpse a sub-epic character could get to?) and intel?

A simple case of suicide? :smalltongue:

KillianHawkeye
2010-09-28, 02:03 PM
But I'm hopeful that it works on how many hit dice you want to give it.

I'm pretty sure you can't just choose how many Hit Dice you want to "give" a creature you're raising. That doesn't make any sense. Hit Dice are always determined by either the base creature (in the case of templated creatures) or the creature that it's being raised as.

The Gilded Duke
2010-09-28, 02:15 PM
Awaken Undead gives them back class features I believe, but has an xp cost. Should be in Spell Compendium.

Asheram
2010-09-28, 02:19 PM
Awaken Undead gives them back class features I believe, but has an xp cost. Should be in Spell Compendium.

An L7 spell. so that's L13 for a Wizard or someone who casts like one.

Hm. Or Deathbound domain L6. L11 for a Cleric or someone who casts like one

Coidzor
2010-09-28, 05:22 PM
A simple case of suicide? :smalltongue:

I don't think Asmodeus is going to give you the body, even if you ask nicely.

Maybe you can get your jumplomancer friend to impress him though...:smallamused:

Darrin
2010-09-28, 06:26 PM
Is there a way to create undead servants that have their own minds, class levels and abilities etc. with a spell or something?

What exactly are you trying to do with the servants?

This is kind of tricky... the unseen servants don't count as creatures... heck, they barely count as objects. But if you could find some way to animate them similar to animate objects, then you could probably do something with the animate construct spell (which won't work on temporarily animated objects) or the incarnate construct template.

KillianHawkeye
2010-09-28, 08:47 PM
What exactly are you trying to do with the servants?

This is kind of tricky... the unseen servants don't count as creatures... heck, they barely count as objects. But if you could find some way to animate them similar to animate objects, then you could probably do something with the animate construct spell (which won't work on temporarily animated objects) or the incarnate construct template.

An unseen servant is neither a creature nor an object. It is simply a spell effect.

I'm not sure why you're bringing it up at all, though, since the OP is looking for undead servants, not unseen servants.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 09:03 PM
An unseen servant is neither a creature nor an object. It is simply a spell effect.

I'm not sure why you're bringing it up at all, though, since the OP is looking for undead servants, not unseen servants.

Bone Incarnate Construct Awakened Unseen Servant? :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2010-09-28, 09:09 PM
Um. I don't think Unseen servants have a skeletal system, what with being shapeless in addition to invisible and mindless. In addition to all of the other problematic areas. Like how they count as constructs for the template to be applied to start.

Does Incarnate Construct grant one? (hmm, it would seem to, since it requires an anthropomorphic form to be a valid target)

Of course, having an undead butler created entirely out of magic would be fittingly awesome.

What class would be best for a butler, anyway? Or a battle butler as the case probably would be.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 09:13 PM
Um. I don't think Unseen servants have a skeletal system. In addition to all of the other problematic areas.

Does Incarnate Construct grant one? Doesn't it require a humanoid-shaped construct as the target?

Of course, having an undead butler created entirely out of magic would be fitting.

What class would be best for a butler, anyway? Or a battle butler as the case probably would be.

Expert or Noble, I'd say.

Benly
2010-09-28, 09:20 PM
A level 11 caster can make a Necrosis Carnex (MM4) with Animate Dead, which is not exactly a great butler at Int 3 but is better than mindless. Awaken Undead is probably the best solution overall, or else rebuking things you've made with Create Undead.

Dr Gunsforhands
2010-09-29, 01:06 AM
In the Eberron book Five Nations there is a prestige class called Bone Knight that allows you to summon Karnathi Skeletons and Karnathi Zombies as a class ability. It's called fill the ranks and works like Animate Dead. Karnathi Skeletons and Zombies are intelligent undead (kinda along the similar vein as how Warforged are intelligent constructs) raised by the Nation of Karnath that you can find in the back of the Eberron Core. All you need is a corpse to use this ability and you have a loyal, intelligent, undead minion eager to undie for you to protect your unlife.

Benly
2010-09-29, 01:44 AM
In the Eberron book Five Nations there is a prestige class called Bone Knight that allows you to summon Karnathi Skeletons and Karnathi Zombies as a class ability. It's called fill the ranks and works like Animate Dead. Karnathi Skeletons and Zombies are intelligent undead (kinda along the similar vein as how Warforged are intelligent constructs) raised by the Nation of Karnath that you can find in the back of the Eberron Core. All you need is a corpse to use this ability and you have a loyal, intelligent, undead minion eager to undie for you to protect your unlife.

Oddly, I was just looking up stuff on Karrnathi undead for an unrelated reason, and it turns out Keith Baker suggests letting them be made with Animate Dead (http://www.bossythecow.com/askthedreamingdark%209-14.htm) under the right circumstances (target must have been level 3 minimum, must have been a Karrnathi soldier who died on the battlefield, and double the usual material component cost). It's not official material, but it is supplemental clarification from the designer, which is often worth something. If your DM lets you adapt it to your allied faction of choice rather than specifically Karrnath, they're a nice option to have.

Of course, he also suggests restricting the Bone Knight ability to much the same rules regarding allowable corpses, so your mileage may vary.

Coidzor
2010-09-29, 02:35 AM
Interesting, thanks for the heads up with that, Benly.

Malbordeus
2010-09-29, 04:58 AM
theres the mumified creature template in the LM which doesnt replace your HD with monster HD so, should let you keep class features, also the gravetouched ghoul... (which might require appropriate sacrifices and an alter dedicated to Doresian to get applied)

second up theres Awaken Undead. whilst they dont regain skills and feats, they do become able to learn them, and therefore level up appropriatly again.

with the Wight suggestion, its more efficient to enervate something to death and wait 24 hrs, then use rebuke to gain control of it rahter than cast Create Undead. especially as with Create Undead, you still need to control the critter after you've made it.

Mordrigar
2010-09-29, 05:44 AM
I was away for a day and came back. Its nice to see that some people answered my question.
What i really looking for is, an undead servant who is absolutely loyal to its creator and has its own skills, feats, class abilities, memories etc. Just like vampire's slaves.

Why i want this?
Because, in my campagin i was leading a troop of blood trolls (more than 75 blood trolls with fighter(4) or wizard (6) class levels.) and razing every church in front of me. While destroying Ilmater Temple, level 15 monk tried to stop my trolls. I was bored of controlling troops and entered battle field for fighting that poor monk. I made a wrong move and he almost killed me but i managed to retreat. Then my troops killed him in 1 round. Now i'm looking for animate him (and every priest of that church) as my servants with their memories and class abilities. They will remember their life but can't disobey my orders.

My current character is a God Hater Ur-Priest / Wizard and because of some extraordinary events, Divine Magic is not working and this makes, all clerics and paladins ordinary fighters.

For that templates... Yes they make monsters retain their abilities but you don't get absolute control on them. Also there is no clue how do you add that template. How could a wizard/cleric could add mummified template to a creature?

Awaken undead seems great for me but still isn't exactly what i want. I can create good undead fighters with it.

KillianHawkeye
2010-09-29, 06:20 AM
Bone Incarnate Construct Awakened Unseen Servant? :smalltongue:

I'd argue that unseen servants aren't constructs, since they are spell effects (not creatures).

Mordrigar
2010-09-29, 07:15 AM
I'd argue that unseen servants aren't constructs, since they are spell effects (not creatures).

FROM SRD
An unseen servant is an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at your command. It can run and fetch things, open unstuck doors, and hold chairs, as well as clean and mend...

It's a force. Just like magic missile. Maybe animate spell work on it lol. But this is not the thing that i'm looking for.

Malbordeus
2010-09-29, 08:07 AM
with create greater undead. it is still a mummy after all.

and yeah, absolute control of an inteligent undead is difficult. which is why diplomacy checks are important. you either get control, or you get class features. its difficult to have both unless you have a lot of vampires and master vampires running around.

i guess you could homebrew a weaker vampire template, but remove the horrible drawbacks to make it playable (and a sensible LA) or make a template wight. i did that one once... but then you end up with dooming armies of undeath everywhere. not easy

Benly
2010-09-29, 11:14 AM
For what you want, it sounds like the best option is honestly still Rebuking, possibly by the route of rebuking a creature with the Spawn ability.

Coidzor
2010-09-29, 11:24 AM
What undead has a spawn ability that allows retention of classes though?

Vampires if the things are 5HD+, but go uncontrolled if one makes more than 2x the HD of the progenitor vampire.

Saw some kind of Spectral template for non-humanoids in crystal keep from DoF (defenders of faith?) related to Spectres with a create spawn ability.

Tyger
2010-09-29, 11:33 AM
While it may not work in this specific instance, what about using Shapechage to assume the form (and SU abilities) of a spawn creating undead?

Turn into a Vampire. Kill someone using the Energy Drain attack. 1d4 days later they rise under your control.

Not sure if it works by RAW (I am afb at the moment) but seems to make sense.

Morph Bark
2010-09-29, 11:48 AM
While it may not work in this specific instance, what about using Shapechage to assume the form (and SU abilities) of a spawn creating undead?

Turn into a Vampire. Kill someone using the Energy Drain attack. 1d4 days later they rise under your control.

Not sure if it works by RAW (I am afb at the moment) but seems to make sense.

The spell does not say explicitly that you can take templated creatures' forms, although I guess it is implicit in the "single non-unique creature" stuff (although Colossal+ is banned from access :smallamused:).

It could work. But what if a Vampire created this way bites you and makes you into a vampire? Infinite control loop? An endless battle for dominance?

Sounds like a fun relationship!

Benly
2010-09-29, 11:54 AM
Well, what it comes down to is that it's deliberately difficult to do what's being requested here in the system. A necromancer-type character essentially has three control pools of sorts. Animate Dead's pool is large (4HD/lvl) and controls subjects forever, but is extremely difficult to get powerful undead into. Rebuking controls subjects forever and can potentially control much more powerful subjects, but is much smaller at 1HD/lvl. Command Undead has a potentially unlimited "pool size" and can control very powerful undead, but has limited duration and limited control compared to the others.

If this isn't a deliberate design decision, it does a really good impression of one: "Powerful, numerous, firmly controlled. Pick two." There are ways to tweak the rules (Awaken Undead makes your Animate Dead pool much stronger at an XP cost, and there are some powerful mindless undead that can be strongly controlled with Command Undead if you can find them to Command in the first place) but in general, that's what you've got.

The OP's request is that he have templated undead that retain their original intelligence and abilities (powerful), that he be able to apply this to an entire temple's hierarchy (numerous), and that they be unable to resist his commands (firmly controlled). If this is a difficult order to fill, it's because the system is designed to not actually make that feasible. Vampire spawn are about the only exception.

Coidzor
2010-09-29, 12:18 PM
While it may not work in this specific instance, what about using Shapechage to assume the form (and SU abilities) of a spawn creating undead?

Turn into a Vampire. Kill someone using the Energy Drain attack. 1d4 days later they rise under your control.

Not sure if it works by RAW (I am afb at the moment) but seems to make sense.

Well, the revised necromancer handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=68ll3o13on7hmo9nf7mkn2is86&topic=5584.0) seems to believe it'll work by RAW due to being an instantaneous effect that's only checked when it's triggered.

OP: This is still the most direct option for beatsticks.
In Unapproachable East there’s a spell called create undead warrior that has no cap on how many undead it can create, and which gives you full control over what it makes. The undead warriors are kind of disappointing, having no Con and a penalty to Int and Cha, the potential of lost feats, and only a modest Strength bonus to make up for the pantsing (btw, what you really want to make is Drow Rogue Undead Warriors, because that takes best use of their few advantages). Also it costs a ridiculously large amount of XP (though no money) to activate the spell. So on the face of it, you’d never do that right? Well, you’re not going to pay that XP. Rather than playing Thought Bottle cheese, you’re going to spellstitch this spell, because it’s a 6th level Arcane Necromancy spell. Then you don’t pay the XP cost, and you can make one Undead Warrior every day for the rest of your life to join your army for free with no limit to your control pool. This would initially be so cheesy that we wouldn’t even suggest it, except that it’s in the flavor text of the spell that the leader of the Thayan Necromancer, Szass Tam himself, is already doing just that. Weird, huh?

Since you're talking about primarily Clerics and Adepts, their casting stat isn't damaged, so the real deal there would be that they'd have to (probably) switch to a new deity when/if divine casting becomes possible again.

Since right now they're basically fallen paladins with worse BAB and HD, the penalties aren't as bad as they would be in a more normal campaign.

The monk, on the other hand, unless it was a skill monkey type doesn't really lose out on a whole lot.

Note, I'm pretty sure the name of the spell is Animate Dread Warrior.

Asheram
2010-09-29, 12:31 PM
The spell does not say explicitly that you can take templated creatures' forms, although I guess it is implicit in the "single non-unique creature" stuff (although Colossal+ is banned from access :smallamused:).

It could work. But what if a Vampire created this way bites you and makes you into a vampire? Infinite control loop? An endless battle for dominance?

Sounds like a fun relationship!

Rules of the game. Polymorph Revisited. (Part 2)

The spell alter self provides the baseline for all other polymorph effects in the game. Once you understand how alter self works, you're well on your way to understanding how any similar effect works. Here are the essential features of the alter self spell:

<cut out>

You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn't change the creature type or subtype.

Edit:

Through the Non-unique clause makes this a tough nut...

Edit on Edit:

Well I'll be buggered.



Shapechange

This spell represents the ultimate polymorph effect. It works much like polymorph, except as follows:

* The spell works only on the caster.

The spell has a personal range and a target of "you," so you can share it with your familiar or other companion with the share spells ability.

* You can choose any form except that of a unique creature.

You can choose a form of any type, even a gaseous or incorporeal form.

* You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.

As with the polymorph spell, you don't retain supernatural abilities that depend on a body part you do not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep your spell-like and extraordinary abilities, provided your new form has the requisite body parts; for example, you can't retain a rend ability if your assumed form does not have claws.

* You can change form once a round as a free action.

Changing form does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

* When you assume an incorporeal form with this spell, you get all the traits of the incorporeal subtype.


I'd say it's a fair shot.

Coidzor
2010-09-29, 01:01 PM
You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn't change the creature type or subtype.

Edit:

Through the Non-unique clause makes this a tough nut...

So, with this in play, one would have to turn into a non-unique, non-templated undead that could create templated spawn.

A tall order indeed. I was having enough trouble trying to think of templated creatures that create spawn.

I was thinking Gravetouched Ghoul, but that seems to only make regular ghouls/ghasts, sadly. I can't remember what the template for non-humanoid ghoul things is though...

Hmm. Seems DR 307 has the ghoulish template for things of 4+HD with spawning, but nothing about controlling them.

Umbral from LM seems to basically allow one to make non-humanoids into shadows with no cap on control, and they may retain features from the base creature due to being templated.

Worst comes to worst, could be awakened and still have the loyalty to their spawner.

They're incorporeal though.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-29, 02:17 PM
Why i want this?
Because, in my campagin i was leading a troop of blood trolls (more than 75 blood trolls with fighter(4) or wizard (6) class levels.) and razing every church in front of me. While destroying Ilmater Temple, level 15 monk tried to stop my trolls. I was bored of controlling troops and entered battle field for fighting that poor monk. I made a wrong move and he almost killed me but i managed to retreat. Then my troops killed him in 1 round. Now i'm looking for animate him (and every priest of that church) as my servants with their memories and class abilities. They will remember their life but can't disobey my orders.

My current character is a God Hater Ur-Priest / Wizard and because of some extraordinary events, Divine Magic is not working and this makes, all clerics and paladins ordinary fighters.


Epic spells could do it by mixing the animate dead seed and transform seed to include the original memories.

Granted it's an epic spell, but waiting another 5 or so levels for revenge sounds "fun" :)