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Tetrasodium
2010-09-28, 09:11 AM
I'm in a game where one of the players "recently" (about 6 sessions ago with a session every other week) lost their character sheet. Since then, they have showed up most games, and each week agreed they were going to work on making a new character rather than recreate the old one. Then... the next session comes up, and he has no character. After a couple sessions of this, the DM started giving him build help, and the player would say he was going to put the character together by the next game.

Due to some real world events, the last game pretty much turned into lets help X make a new character. Over the last 2 months or so he's been all for making a tank, so we come up with a concept for a tank (while he plays games on his phone)... then we explain everything to him and his exact words are "that sounds awesome... I wanna dual wield mauls". We help him write down all his stats and the like "because it's confusing" and he agrees that filling in his class stuff is no big deal and he can do that himself by next session. Before he goes home hours later, someone asks if he's going to have his character sheet ready by next game since he just has to write down the info from the classes themselves "um... yea maybe.. I'll try... I mean... if I have time". Are you going to have time? "I dunno, maybe?".

The party really needs something not entirely squishy, originally we had 2 other tankish types on top of this player's, two of them had to leave for schedule reasons. It's fallen to me to "help" this guy make a character with his only input being "Yea all that sounds awesome... can I wield two flails"

The game is barely pre-epic with gestalt characters & most people likely to scoot over to 21 at some point soon. It's an evil campaign, and money is typically obtained by someone who has it suddenly disappearing if we have a need. So how do I make a relatively effective tankish type who wields two flails or similar but is still effective? Fighter/Rogue would probably be somewhat effective at doing damage with dual wielding, but the party is so high in dps types that more DPS isn't going to help things... plus the sneak attack damage would almost never kick in since everyone else would just go "pfft, invis/fly up". Fighter/Crusader or some other class from tome of battle would probably be effective, but then I'd wind up essentially picking all of his maneuvers and everything... then teaching him how to use it when he inevitably doesn't bother to read the few relevant pages in the book. Anything with ranger fails because I really don't want to have to compile a list of spells for him. Any suggestions?... at all?... about anything? :)

kamikasei
2010-09-28, 09:25 AM
Well, firstly I'd say it's a good idea for a DM always to have a copy of the players' sheets, not just to combat cheating and guard against loss and damage, but so she can check the characters' abilities when planning encounters between sessions. That would be useful to prevent the immediate problem (player lost his sheet and can't reconstruct character) recurring.

Beyond that... I think your problem goes beyond just what class the guy should play. He's consistently saying he'll do something and then failing to do it. A little more background would probably help... Does he know the rules of the game itself, and it's just a matter of his doing the work while away from the table? Then simply hold a "build X's character" session (or have the DM or someone else do it with him one-on-one outside of regular game time), and make sure he understands that at the end of the session he will have his character. Don't let him wander off with vague ideas of how he'll finish the character; get it finished there and then and if he doesn't think before he leaves to work in some ability he later decides he wants, tough luck. Maybe he can rebuild when you next level - again with the stipulation that he has to have any update completed while at the table.

Quite simply, he's asked you to trust him to get something done and repeatedly failed in that trust, so stop extending it. It doesn't have to be a big deal - "look, it seems clear you don't have the time or inclination to do this stuff between sessions, so we'll just make sure it's sorted out during sessions". Not having time isn't a sin, but wasting your friends' time with false promises is kind of a jerk move, and one you should cut short.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-28, 09:40 AM
Well, firstly I'd say it's a good idea for a DM always to have a copy of the players' sheets, not just to combat cheating and guard against loss and damage, but so she can check the characters' abilities when planning encounters between sessions. That would be useful to prevent the immediate problem (player lost his sheet and can't reconstruct character) recurring.

Beyond that... I think your problem goes beyond just what class the guy should play. He's consistently saying he'll do something and then failing to do it. A little more background would probably help... Does he know the rules of the game itself, and it's just a matter of his doing the work while away from the table? Then simply hold a "build X's character" session (or have the DM or someone else do it with him one-on-one outside of regular game time), and make sure he understands that at the end of the session he will have his character. Don't let him wander off with vague ideas of how he'll finish the character; get it finished there and then and if he doesn't think before he leaves to work in some ability he later decides he wants, tough luck. Maybe he can rebuild when you next level - again with the stipulation that he has to have any update completed while at the table.

Quite simply, he's asked you to trust him to get something done and repeatedly failed in that trust, so stop extending it. It doesn't have to be a big deal - "look, it seems clear you don't have the time or inclination to do this stuff between sessions, so we'll just make sure it's sorted out during sessions". Not having time isn't a sin, but wasting your friends' time with false promises is kind of a jerk move, and one you should cut short.

The game is so over the top that cheating isn't really an issue, we stole a kingdom at one point... looted the treasury and got them to better equip us before starting a war with a nearby kingdom and instating the chaos of democracy as we parachuted out to some other part of the world as an example. Our serious campaign is on the other side of the every other week :). Not keeping a copy of everyone's character sheets is the DM's choice.

As far as him knowing the rules of the game, he started with the group before I joined and sort of went through a bit of on the job training you could say, but he has the rules down as far as melee combat and being hit by spells. Casting spells he could probably handle, but... that involves lots of record keeping on his part in an already caster heavy party.

kamikasei
2010-09-28, 09:49 AM
It sounds like you've got a guy who doesn't want to deal with bookkeeping or number-crunching but doesn't want to admit that. Assuming you do want to play with the guy (sounds like he'd drive me nuts, but then, I'm hearing about his worst side given the nature of the thread), getting an admission that he indeed doesn't want to deal with those issues and agreeing to build a character for him does sound like the best way to go.

Crusader//something with maneuver cards is probably your best bet. Finding a useful gestalt with minimal bookkeeping might be a pain, though, depending on the level of optimization at the table.

Jornophelanthas
2010-09-28, 09:59 AM
How about a ranger with the Alternative Class Feature from Complete Warrior that trades the spellcasting for spell-like abilities?

Additionally, this players appears to be hardly interested in the game, or at least to have no interest in knowing the rules. If this bothers you, the other players and/or the DM, discuss it amongst yourselves. Does he even want to be part of the group?

At the very least, clear things up. Either this players has to agree to finish his character sheet on his own and actually do so, or he has to admit that he can't/won't do this, so the character must be made for him. Either way, this must be clear with everyone, so that the character sheet will be finished.

And if he promises to finish the character sheet, but doesn't have it ready by the next session, punish him by not letting him play the character, and giving him a (less powerful) NPC character instead. The DM has to agree on this, and of course an ultimatum like this must be announced beforehand, and the player must be aware of it.

Finally, be diplomatic about everything. Don't just flat-out order him to think for himself, or else. Instead ask him if something is wrong and if he's actually still enjoying the game. This is something anyone can do, and is not just up to the DM. Regardless, the DM should be made aware of anything like this.

Lord Vampyre
2010-09-28, 02:09 PM
Honestly, it sounds like the guy isn't very interested in playing. Him playing on his phone while everyone else is working on his character, is a jerk move. I can accept the fact the mechanics of any gaming system can be confusing to some people, but they should still be involved in the character creation process, and ask questions when they don't understand something.

The game being a pre-epic gestalt campaign may just be over his head. It would be best if someone else held on to his character sheet from now on. If the DM is unwilling to do this, then maybe you or someone else can do it for him.

Now, as far as character concepts go. If its allowed to use racial levels from Savage Species, I would make him a half-dragon minotaur / Scout ? // Fighter ? . The large size from the minotaur means he would get the wings from the half-dragon template. Now, give him the feats required for Heavy weight wings, and he can carry almost anything while flying and wear heavy armor. Scout would give him the increased Movement and enough skills to make it worth while. Now the character concept is far from optimized, but optimization usually takes experience to pull off properly in play. Having the ability and using are two different things. This would at least make him a large flying tank. In my experience a flying meatshield is better than a walking meatshield. Alternatively switch out the fighter with Ranger3/Barbarian ? . Ranger doesn't get spells until after 3rd level.

KillianHawkeye
2010-09-28, 02:11 PM
I can relate. I have a couple people in my group who hate making characters, so I pretty much always end up doing it for them. I'll have a chat about what kind of character they want to play, and they'll do whatever necessary rolls, I'll make my own suggestions for their build, they make some decisions, and I do the rest.

I do suggest having the DM always keep the character sheets, though. At least with my group, where there's always a slightly different array of people present, it's practically a necessity.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-28, 02:49 PM
Honestly, it sounds like the guy isn't very interested in playing. Him playing on his phone while everyone else is working on his character, is a jerk move. I can accept the fact the mechanics of any gaming system can be confusing to some people, but they should still be involved in the character creation process, and ask questions when they don't understand something.

The game being a pre-epic gestalt campaign may just be over his head. It would be best if someone else held on to his character sheet from now on. If the DM is unwilling to do this, then maybe you or someone else can do it for him.

Now, as far as character concepts go. If its allowed to use racial levels from Savage Species, I would make him a half-dragon minotaur / Scout ? // Fighter ? . The large size from the minotaur means he would get the wings from the half-dragon template. Now, give him the feats required for Heavy weight wings, and he can carry almost anything while flying and wear heavy armor. Scout would give him the increased Movement and enough skills to make it worth while. Now the character concept is far from optimized, but optimization usually takes experience to pull off properly in play. Having the ability and using are two different things. This would at least make him a large flying tank. In my experience a flying meatshield is better than a walking meatshield. Alternatively switch out the fighter with Ranger3/Barbarian ? . Ranger doesn't get spells until after 3rd level.

The gestalt stuff being a bit over his head has been the general excuse. He's been asked a few times if he's just not interested, and keeps saying he really wants to play and just isn't sure what to do despite multiple offers to explain it and help. Having him come out and pull the "I wanna dual wield mauls!" card after about 2 hours of "helping" him make his new character pretty much made everyone sigh. He's going to be roommate's with the GM in a month or so, so kicking him from the game really isn't an option.

Pretty much anything a few steps short of punpun and infinite loops is likely to be allowed, almost anything from anywhere "official" is fair game. Ideally I'd like to be able to have him actually function as a tank without having to teach him how to. The half dragon was something I hadn't thought of & the heavy wing thing I wasn't even aware of, it's likely going to be part of the character for the flight alone if nothing else.

Lord Vampyre
2010-09-28, 03:56 PM
I'm glad I could help.

For reference, the heavyweight wings requires an additional feat. I don't have my books at the moment so I'm afraid I can't look it up. However, just look in Races of the Dragon, everything you'll need is in there for a half-dragon. As far as which draconic ancestry he should have, I tend to prefer Shadow Dragon, but it really only gives you immunity to level drain. I pretty much just used it for the image of the character.