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View Full Version : Fun (but effective) ways to use changling + warshaper?(3.5)



Nick_mi
2010-09-28, 09:55 AM
I'm playing in a campaign here soon that is looking to be high powered(I get a 20 and two 18 as auto stats, roll my other 3). I will be a changling, looking to go into an easy war shaper. I'm not a 100% on the rules, but I kind of want to take war shaper so taht I can grow some extra arms and be able to attack with two 2-handed weapons. I'm just curious how you would go about building that or tweaking it.

Benly
2010-09-28, 11:50 AM
I'm playing in a campaign here soon that is looking to be high powered(I get a 20 and two 18 as auto stats, roll my other 3). I will be a changling, looking to go into an easy war shaper. I'm not a 100% on the rules, but I kind of want to take war shaper so taht I can grow some extra arms and be able to attack with two 2-handed weapons. I'm just curious how you would go about building that or tweaking it.

Well, for one thing you'd want to go with a class that actually lets you grow extra arms for wielding weapons. Warshaper lets you sprout natural attacks (claws, horns, bites) but does not let you grow extra hands for weapon wielding. Girallon's Blessing or being one of the few races that's naturally four-handed is the only way I know of to quad-wield weapons.

On the other hand, if you're happy growing a dozen spiked tentacles and beating someone to death with them, Warshaper'll do you just fine.

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-28, 11:54 AM
Thri-Kreen from the Expanded Psionics Handbook also has four arms, but also LA +2 and 2 racial HD, so it isn't probably the most optimized.

Nick_mi
2010-09-28, 11:59 AM
So realisticly I could go for a two weapon attack + a gore or a bite? how would the attack penalties work on that?

drakir_nosslin
2010-09-28, 12:03 PM
Totemist from MoI can grant you an extra set of arms, but I don't think you can wield anything with them. Gives you a massive grapple attack bonus and combined with a few other soulmelds a nasty attack routine as well.

Yorrin
2010-09-28, 12:18 PM
I've built an unarmed TWF Changeling Warshaper with good results. I got the DM to rule that a Monk's unarmed attack also counts as a natural weapon whenever it is beneficial to me. So I got Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB), Improved Natural Weapon (MM), and the Warshaper thing for an easy 4d6 unarmed attack.

Nick_mi
2010-09-28, 02:39 PM
Ok, looking for more things like that. What did you go, monk 5 then warshaper?

Keld Denar
2010-09-28, 03:39 PM
Monk UAS's are always counted as Natural Weapons, or Manufactured Weapons, whichever is most beneficial at the time. Thus, they are a legal target for Improved Natural Attack and similar abilities.

Natural attacks are pretty easy to figure out, once you got the basics. First, figure out what your PRIMARY natural attack is. This is generally stated in the stat block of the animal you are emulating. If you can't figure it out, just pick one...claws are generally a good choice. You make one attack with your PRIMARY natural weapon (or 2, if its a pair like claws). You then make 1 attack with ALL of your other natural weapons, called SECONDARY natural weapons. These attacks are all made at -5 from your PRIMARY natural attack, regardless of how many you make. If you have 1 bite SECONDARY natural attack, its at -5. If you have a dozen tentacle SECONDARY natural attacks, they are still all made at -5.

IF you are wielding a manufactured weapon (or using UASs), that is automatically considered your PRIMARY weapon. Whatever your PRIMARY natural weapon was before, its now SECONDARY. First, make iteratives with that weapon. Then make SECONDARY natural attacks with all of the natural weapons you have that aren't involved in wielding that weapon.

Examples:
Kobold (Claw/Claw/Bite, Claws primary) with +9 attack bonus
+9/+9/+4 Claw/Claw/Bite
Same Kobold with a longsword
+9/+4/+4 LSword/Claw/Bite (notice how claw became SECONDARY?)
Kobold with longsword/shortsword and TWF feat
+7/+7/+2 LSword/SSword/Bite (no claw attacks, claws are busy holding swords)
Kobold with Improved Unarmed Strike
+9/+4/+4/+4 UAS/Claw/Claw/Bite (UAS shifted claws to SECONDARY)
Kobold with Deepspawn feat (LoMadness, adds 2 tentacle attacks)
+9/+9/+4/+4/+4 Claw/Claw/Bite/Tentacle/Tentacle (still SECONDARY like bite)

SECONDARY natural attacks only gain the benefit of 1/2 your Str bonus, which is something to keep in mind. Only PRIMARY attacks have full +Str bonus.

Makes sense?

Nick_mi
2010-09-28, 07:27 PM
Still kinda confusing. Ok, so war shaper wielding a two handed weapon with two extra limbs. bith BA+str being 9
Greatsword +9/ Claw +4/ claw +4
?

Keld Denar
2010-09-28, 07:38 PM
If you do in fact have 4 limbs, then yes. 2 limbs wield the sword, and 2 limbs claw at people, independantly. The claw attacks are at -5, and only get half of your +Str modifier.

If you are like our kobold friend above with only 2 hands (each of with have claws), you wouldn't get ANY natural attacks, since your hands would be too busy wielding the sword to claw at people. You get the claws, or the sword.

Note that not all claws are adept at wielding weapons. The claws granted by the Girallon Arms Totemist meld specifically can't wield weapons, as do the limbs from the Insectile template, IIRC.

Nick_mi
2010-09-28, 07:43 PM
Hmmmk, well still trying to figure out my char.

JeminiZero
2010-09-28, 08:44 PM
grow some extra arms and be able to attack with two 2-handed weapons. I'm just curious how you would go about building that or tweaking it.

I was going to suggest getting polymorph, transforming into a Hydra, and then wielding multiple mouthpick weapons (LoM). Mouthpick weapons specifically say they grant iterative attacks, so as a e.g. 7 headed hydra with a BAB of 6+, you gain 2 iterative attacks and can crank out 7x2 = 14 attacks per round.

Then I realized that didn't require levels in Warshaper at all.

But yeah, you could grow fangs for a bite attack, and then wield one 2-hander as a mouthpick, and another 2-hander with your hands. Although the DM is within his right to rule that the mouthpick counts as a secondary weapon that only gets 1/2 strength bonus despite being a 2-hander.

Nick_mi
2010-09-28, 08:48 PM
Where do I read about rules on a "mouthpick"

Coidzor
2010-09-28, 08:50 PM
Where do I read about rules on a "mouthpick"

Mouthpicks are a magical weapon property detailed in Lords of Madness in the chapter on Beholders in the section on items for Beholders, IIRC.

I believe they're a +1 bonus equivalent that grants weapon proficiency provided one is proficient with a bite natural weapon.

Edit: I'm not sure whether the plan to get iterative attacks with each mouthpick weapon would work or not though.

Part of me thinks that it'd be a no without some kind of multiweapon fighting feat. :smallconfused:

Then again, multiweapon fighting is keyed off of arms... :smallconfused:

true_shinken
2010-09-28, 08:53 PM
You want to get into Warshaper asap. You also want a good chassis.
Warblade is as good as it gets. Then use Shou Disciple instead of Monk.
Warblade 5/Warshaper 4/Shou Disciple 5. You have 6 levels to play around. You could use them for Commoner and you'd still rock.

Nick_mi
2010-09-28, 09:16 PM
I don't think I have access to ToB

true_shinken
2010-09-28, 09:38 PM
I don't think I have access to ToB

Barbarian works, then. Grab a few ACF (specially whirling frenzy and lion totem, but trakiller is funny as hell) and you're set.

Nick_mi
2010-09-29, 12:02 AM
Where would I look for those? And how good are they? Was kind of looking forward to raging with the warshapers +4 str/con for a whopping 28 str.

Coidzor
2010-09-29, 12:42 AM
Whirling Frenzy is UA material. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) Adds to STR and AC and gives an extra attack.

Spirit Lion Totem (the source of Barbarian Pounce) is from Complete Champion.

Trapkiller Barbarian gives some ability to find traps that otherwise only rogues could find and kill them. Can't remember the source though.

Delivery Ninja
2010-09-29, 12:59 AM
Trapkiller Barbarian is from Dungeonscape, and essentially involves finding traps with survival, and then hitting them with your axe or other associated weapon until they stop working. It's an amusing and occasionally useful little class feature to have.

senrath
2010-09-29, 01:01 AM
The only problem with the Trapkiller ACF is that you can only attempt to disable traps with "moving mechanisms or gears", which rules out most magical traps and most pit traps.

Still, being able to find traps that normally take a rogue to do is very fun.

Nick_mi
2010-09-29, 01:24 AM
We'll have a rogue in the party :P

Greenish
2010-09-29, 02:41 AM
Monk UAS's are always counted as Natural Weapons, or Manufactured Weapons, whichever is most beneficial at the time. Thus, they are a legal target for Improved Natural Attack and similar abilities.Well, they're treated as both, for purposes of spells and effects that enhance or improve them. The feat should count, and the increased range from warshaper does, too.

Examples:
Kobold (Claw/Claw/Bite, Claws primary) with +9 attack bonus
+9/+9/+4 Claw/Claw/Bite
Same Kobold with a longsword
+9/+4/+4 LSword/Claw/Bite (notice how claw became SECONDARY?)It might be clearer if you also put the iteratives to your examples.

JeminiZero
2010-09-29, 03:23 AM
Edit: I'm not sure whether the plan to get iterative attacks with each mouthpick weapon would work or not though.

I think it should work, because the sole requirement for getting iteratives with mouthpick weapons, are that your BAB is high enough. It does NOT require your bite attack (carrying the mouthpick) to be a primary natural weapon.

Coidzor
2010-09-29, 03:26 AM
I think it should work, because the sole requirement for getting iteratives with mouthpick weapons, are that your BAB is high enough. It does NOT require your bite attack (carrying the mouthpick) to be a primary natural weapon.

Well, it was more the idea of getting iterative attacks with all of the hydra's heads' mouthpick weapons. Part of me thinks it'd be like a case of multi-weapon fighting where one of the mouthpicks is the primary weapon being wielded and gets the full iterative attack routine and the rest would only get a single attack without some feat like improved multiweapon fighting.

I mean, you have to take Improved Two Weapon Fighting to get a second iterative attack with a dagger in one's offhand even if one has a BAB of 20. So unless I'm missing something about either the way the hydra or mouthpick weapons work...