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Scarey Nerd
2010-09-28, 11:21 AM
As the title says, in our evil campaign our final goal is to build a city from scratch. However, we don't have much in the way of solid ideas on how to go about it. We know how to raise money and get workers etc, this thread exists to spit-ball various ideas in regards to the city itself. Power-structure, laws, education, anything you can think of, hit me with it.

So far, all we have established is that one of our party members is going to be the leader of the city, and the empire by extension. Below him in the hierarchy are the other 5 PCs, and we, as a council of 6 with 1 to rule, control the city. Each of the 5 PCs that aren't the leader is the head of multiple Guilds, ranging from the Mage's University to the Merchant's Guild.

And that's all we have. We have a list of said guilds, but please suggest guilds in case we've missed any, or you suggest one similar to one we have but we prefer it etc.

Thank you, and sorry for the long post :smallsmile:

dsmiles
2010-09-28, 11:32 AM
This shouldn't be too terribly hard, considering I built an entire civilization on a buearocracy:
Longshoremans' Union, Miners' Union, Teamsters' Union, Thieves' Guild, Assassins' Guild, Mercenaries' Guild, Mages' Guild, Merchants' Association, Bakers' Guild, Farmers' Union, Gemcutters Union (includes Jewellers, Goldsmiths and Silversmiths), Blacksmiths' Union (includes Weaponsmiths and Armorers), Tanners' Society (I say society, because you don't want a tannery inside your city), Leatherworkers' Guild.

I probably missed a few, that campaign happened years ago.

JonestheSpy
2010-09-28, 12:15 PM
If you're evil, how are you going to attract citizens?

Even other evil people don't enjoy having an evil boss.

Scarey Nerd
2010-09-28, 12:20 PM
If you're evil, how are you going to attract citizens?

Even other evil people don't enjoy having an evil boss.

Our plan is to act as "Heroes of the People" to our own goals, namely, establishing a globe-spanning Empire. Charm an Ogre into attacking a town, then kill it ourselves. Steal unscrupulously and blame it on our enemies, then deal with them on behalf of the people - For a fee.

TheThan
2010-09-28, 12:26 PM
Oh this is kinda easy read up on Noxus (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Noxus) from league of legends. It should give you some ideas on how to run a convincing evil city. Not everything has to be evil for evil’s sake.

Telonius
2010-09-28, 12:37 PM
"Evil" encompasses an awful lot of actions and personalities. What sort of Evil are the players, and in what way is the city going to be Evil? If it's just worshiping Evil gods, that's actually a bit easier. Even Evil gods give out goodies to maintain their power.

If your goal is something more like, "Enslave a few thousand people to do our dirty work for us," it's harder, but still possible. Find a bunch of orcs (or some other despised race) and get a bunch of their traditional enemies to be overseers.

If the goal is, "Cause a swath of destruction so great that no one will be left to write a song about it! LOOT PILLAGE BURN BLARRRGHLL!!!" then it's going to be harder still. Good nations might leave the first two types alone, but the third will attract enough attention that everyone within scrying distance will gang up and curb-stomp you.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-28, 12:47 PM
Oh this is kinda easy read up on Noxus (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Noxus) from league of legends. It should give you some ideas on how to run a convincing evil city. Not everything has to be evil for evil’s sake.
Yes, the Evil League of Evil Evilness brand of evil gets stale and unconvincing very quickly.
You can, however, be *significant pause* expedient.
You could allow industries that,while lacking certain *another significant pause* moral and or ethical qualities, are immensely profitable. For a significant, yet still profitable to both parties, share of the profits of such endevors, you could lower taxes elsewhere. This would make you popular with the common folk, while giving you the funding for expansion.
Just remember, just because you are evil doesn't mean you can't keep the lightning trains running on time.

Lorn
2010-09-28, 01:04 PM
Look at the Tippyverse.

For example, if the campaign is high level enough, schools become resetting traps of Mindrape...

Grommen
2010-09-28, 01:07 PM
You don't make an "Evil City"

You, as others have said, make attractive reasons for people to flock to your city. Then you slowly, quietly, and suddley "Convert" them to evil. Some of our most horrible leaders in history have done this to devastating effects. Sure your going to attract the idealist, the purest, and the occasional Palidin. Every city needs scape goats. Blame anything bad on them. Then, once everyone is fully entrenched in your brand of evil, you start turning them against their neighbors.

Sill you have to do this slowly, and quietly. First you find a nice little village on the border with your neighbors. Their "Demon" worshipers or something. They have to be stopped right? So you call up some volunteers to end the threat.

Then it's another village, perhaps an entire region, then a city. Your people war with you to stop a perceived threat to their way of life.

For this model you can't be chaotic. You have to use laws, but not oppressive laws. That will cause people to rebel. If you have "Slaves" make it clear that not anyone can be a slave. Only those of "X" group can be enslaved. This way you create a ruling class, they have incentive to keep the status quo.

You don't go around killing puppies. You take the puppy because someone did not take out the proper license for the puppy. It's for the greater good of the city. You have to have proper permits after all.

"We don't want chaos like that city over their do we? They cavort with the devil, they let their women just run free. And look at the way they treat their surfs. Free will, baaaa. The people need the guidance of the wise and powerful. Like us friend. :smallbiggrin:" -- recruitment speech for "Team Evil"

Good thing I don't want to rule the world anymore.

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-28, 01:40 PM
What level are the PC's, and what classes and books do you have access to?
How high magic do you want the city/is the world?
Where is the city located?

Scarey Nerd
2010-09-28, 01:41 PM
OK, a few more things:

We are evil, but not evil for evil's sake. "A happy city is a working city". We definitely don't want to build a civilisation on slavery, it wouldn't be a sustainable way of life. Nor do we want to build a society on lies, I've read 1984 too many times to think it could work.

We'd need incredibly tight regulations on everything. The Magi Registration Act of 1173, for example.

Edit:
What level are the PC's, and what classes and books do you have access to?
How high magic do you want the city/is the world?
Where is the city located?

-We will be around level 10 when we begin construction.
-We have a Wizard, a Rogue/Assassin, a Fighter, a Bard, a Cleric and an Aristocrat.
-We have access to all 3.5 books and classes.
-The world is medium magic, it's not hugely rare but magi are in the minority.
-The city will be located either by the sea, in a defensible mountain position, or an amalgamation of the two locations.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-28, 02:16 PM
I would go for the sea, especially if you have natural, or can make, a harbour. Trade is the lifeblood of a city. Without it, you don't have a city. You might have a fort or military base of sorts, but you don't have a city. A place to replenish supplies while protected from storms is a gods-send to merchant captains everywhere.

zimmerwald1915
2010-09-28, 02:18 PM
This shouldn't be too terribly hard, considering I built an entire civilization on a buearocracy:
Longshoremans' Union, Miners' Union, Teamsters' Union, Thieves' Guild, Assassins' Guild, Mercenaries' Guild, Mages' Guild, Merchants' Association, Bakers' Guild, Farmers' Union, Gemcutters Union (includes Jewellers, Goldsmiths and Silversmiths), Blacksmiths' Union (includes Weaponsmiths and Armorers), Tanners' Society (I say society, because you don't want a tannery inside your city), Leatherworkers' Guild.

I probably missed a few, that campaign happened years ago.
Is it by any chance called the Wobbly Civilization?

dsmiles
2010-09-28, 02:23 PM
Is it by any chance called the Wobbly Civilization?

No? :smallconfused:
I'm not sure where you're going with that, though.

EDIT: @Ravens Cry: Try for a river delta. You get all the benefits of trade on both the sea and river, plush lush farmlands! :smallbiggrin:

Lysander
2010-09-28, 02:24 PM
Running an evil civilization is easy. It's basically the default setting for any group of people. Civil rights, democracy, fair trials, and all that jazz is hard won stuff piled on top of a feudal system of lords exploiting commoners. If you want to be evil just perpetuate an unjust system where the nobility and elite profit and thrive while the poor toil in misery.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-28, 02:26 PM
Running an evil civilization is easy. It's basically the default setting for any group of people. Civil rights, democracy, fair trials, and all that jazz is hard won stuff piled on top of a feudal system of lords exploiting commoners. If you want to be evil just perpetuate an unjust system where the nobility and elite profit and thrive while the poor toil in misery.
Yes, but there is more fun ways to do it then just being a typical feudal Lord or Lady.
Getting the people to love you AND being an evil bastard is so much more enjoyable.

hamishspence
2010-09-28, 02:57 PM
Being a slightly more malicious version of Vetinari?

Scarey Nerd
2010-09-28, 02:59 PM
Being a slightly more malicious version of Vetinari?

If memory serves, Vetinari is the Patrician of Ankh-Morpok, which is very similar to what we want to achieve. So yes :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2010-09-28, 03:01 PM
A good start might be to read the Evil Overlord list (TV Tropes has a copy) and build on that.

Scarey Nerd
2010-09-28, 03:02 PM
A good start might be to read the Evil Overlord list (TV Tropes has a copy) and build on that.

Excellent idea, I'll re-read it now :smallcool:

JonestheSpy
2010-09-28, 03:28 PM
One thing to figure out regardless of evilosity - what's the economic basis for the city's existence? How does it pay for itself? I don't mean taxes, I mean what generates the income that is then taxed?

And alignment aside, why do people want to move there? Lots of natural resources up for grabs? Free farmland? Higher wages? Ability to set up morally suspect business enterprises that would be illegal elsewhere (note you still need labor to work at said suspect enterprises)?

Scarey Nerd
2010-09-28, 03:28 PM
One thing to figure out regardless of evilosity - what's the economic basis for the city's existence? How does it pay for itself? I don't mean taxes, I mean what generates the income that is then taxed?

Trade and warfare, mostly.

hamishspence
2010-09-28, 03:31 PM
To trade, you need something other people want a lot, and are willing to pay for (that pay can be spent on maintaining your civilization and expanding it).

Unless they're acting as brokers of other people's trading, and taking a percentage.

So- besides warfare- what will they have that other people will pay through the nose for?

JonestheSpy
2010-09-28, 03:32 PM
Doh! Edit got ninja'd.

snoopy13a
2010-09-28, 03:32 PM
Yes, but there is more fun ways to do it then just being a typical feudal Lord or Lady.
Getting the people to love you AND being an evil bastard is so much more enjoyable.

But then you're an evil ruler of a good city.

In a strange way the Roman Empire was like this. The common people got free food and entertainment (bread and circuses) while the aristocrats plotted and killed each other (I'm being really, really general here).

blackjack217
2010-09-28, 03:47 PM
Don't be a drow.

Lysander
2010-09-28, 03:47 PM
I think it depends what kind of evil empire you want.

-You can go with the Sauron, where everyone fears your godlike power even though you treat them like slaves.
-There's WW2 Germany/Apartheid South Africa, where you're beloved by much or even most of your subjects, but horribly oppress select groups and wage brutal wars against other countries.
-There's the all controlling Orwellian police state.
-The robber baron/merchant king plutocracy that treats the poor like crap.
-The Roman/Alexander The Great/Gengis Khan model, where you wage endless war to expand your empire.
-The Nero, where you're kind of nuts and live in luxury while the empire suffers and torture people for your amusement.
-The pirate king model, where you let people fend for themselves mostly but demand a tithe.
-Sparta style survival of the fittest, merciless warrior society.
-The Viking pillage your neighbors culture.
-Evil theocracy, worshiping an evil deity or even demon/devil worshipers.
-Colonial rule, where you enslave a lot of the world for the benefit of your homeland.

Of course you can pick more than one of those, even all of the above.

hamishspence
2010-09-28, 03:48 PM
There's plenty of ways in which the populace can grow in evilness. The aforementioned circuses can instill in them a taste for blood and death as entertainment, to begin with.

There's also enslaving the neighbours- if the populace get the slaves, they start becoming complicit in the oppression.

Scarey Nerd
2010-09-28, 03:49 PM
I think it depends what kind of evil empire you want.

-You can go with the Sauron, where everyone fears your godlike power even though you treat them like slaves.
-There's WW2 Germany/Apartheid South Africa, where you're beloved by much or even most of your subjects, but horribly oppress select groups and wage brutal wars against other countries.
-There's the all controlling Orwellian police state.
-The robber baron/merchant king plutocracy that treats the poor like crap.
-The Roman/Alexander The Great/Gengis Khan model, where you wage endless war to expand your empire.
-The Nero, where you're kind of nuts and live in luxury while the empire suffers and torture people for your amusement.
-The pirate king model, where you let people fend for themselves mostly but demand a tithe.
-Sparta style survival of the fittest, merciless warrior society.
-The Viking pillage your neighbors culture.
-Evil theocracy, worshiping an evil deity or even demon/devil worshipers.
-Colonial rule, where you enslave a lot of the world for the benefit of your homeland.
Of course you can pick more than one of those, even all of the above.

I think it would be a combination of Sparta and Roman.

Jinn Master
2010-09-28, 04:51 PM
There is an extremely simple (nowhere near easy) way to set up a city.

Step 1-
Start a village, and spread rumors of how nice it is there, how plentiful
Step 2-
Cause a medium level crisis in areas adjacent to where your village is.
Step 3-
Spread rumors of how some people have escaped to your village's area to make things nicer
Step 4-
Ensure any refugees that come are given work and built homes, slowly building an infrastructure
Step 5-
Once you have a fair infrastructure in place and the resources to accept many refugees, raise the crisis level to OMFGWTFBBQ levels.

Then you just have to keep things organized and your new town/city/nation provided for. Get some druid friends and provisions won't be a problem.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-28, 06:13 PM
Okay. First step... find a river delta. Someone is probably already going to be living there, probably some demihumans. Slaughter them and kick them out.

Then, use LOTS of magic to build infrastructure! Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure! Walls of stone, fabricate, look over the spell lists that you have access to for lots of obscure spells that can be used to move raw materials, prepare land, make roads, make materials for things, prepare farmland, etc.

Conjure things that stay and are real! Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Wall of Salt. Consider exporting all three of those to get you started. Transmute Metal to Wood, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Stone to Sand, Transmute Sand to Glass, etc. Shape Stone, Shape Metal, Shape Wood, etc. -- get permanent long term building materials, and change them to useful things!

There are some spells that can help make irrigation ditches, use them! Use spells for major gigantic earthmoving projects, done very rapidly. Especially focus on getting quality roads to the nearest towns and cities!

Ravens_cry
2010-09-28, 07:13 PM
But then you're an evil ruler of a good city.

In a strange way the Roman Empire was like this. The common people got free food and entertainment (bread and circuses) while the aristocrats plotted and killed each other (I'm being really, really general here).
Oh, it can still be evil. Running slaves and smuggling goods that are contraband in other states, giving a place for less savoury ventures to set up shop, you can be plenty evil.
Just keep it efficient.

bondpirate
2010-09-28, 09:03 PM
Evil Cities are not the hardest to create, it's the idealist ones that can be hard. Choose a laze fair, limited democracy to keep the peoples occupied with themselves instead of what the government is doing. By the limited democracy part, if you have an annual election cycle, then the civilian campaigns will also be annual. Living in a city with lots of political events and campaigns, I know how much that money coming in can supplement the city council's thirsty pocketbooks. Also, since you and your players have an oligarchy going determining the important decisions for the city, the local politicians are more figure heads and scapegoats for the populous.

People will put up with a lot in any kind of city or government environment as long as you provide two key elements, economic and physical security. As long as they feel secure both for themselves and their goods, then they feel better no matter HOW secure their personal safety is. Also, as long as they feel their gold is secure or superior in comparative value to other nations gold, then they'll put up with a lot of taxation as long as they feel it's worth it.

The one thing that all cities share is taxation. While a good or neutral city will deem taxes as a necessary evil; evil cities will view taxes as a necessity. Any kind of business is good business for an evil city. On the coast, you "tolerate" piracy as long as they pay "indulgences" for the protection and "forgiveness" of your flag. If they capture the crews of other ships, they may dump them in the city with no identification or goods. Outside the city gates there is no protection, so they could be murdered. This will require them to work for both sustenance and saving up for protection money in the city generating revenue from the taxes they generate. If they're slaves, then the city sees if the person is apart of any do not slave list (such as your citizens or from another city you have a treaty with, which just so happens to favor your evil city) release them, otherwise they are not permitted in the city as slavery is wrong and your patronage is above such services. So the pirates are forced to go a couple miles south to a slave city you just happen to "protect."

Since a city over a given size requires trade to be successful. You need to either export more than you import, or import others wealth over exporting you own.

An open city recognizes all guilds. Your Assassin's Guild is a prominent facet of your city and your citizens are expected to hold them in high esteem. You also hire supplemental protection for the city (mafia) who have their own service fees (remember, a fee is not a tax so it's not necessarily evil, wink, wink) on the citizens. Your other guilds have a penchant for fees on services rendered. Leasing the services of these guilds, who happen to be government endorsed, to other cities is a prime way of generating wealth. Another facet of exporting services is that a service is perpetually renewable as long as you have people. Exporting goods is finite and limits what kind of trade you can facilitate.

Gambling, shows, prostitution (heavily regulated of course, and you keep your girls clean by having them partner with religious institutions (who get a tax break) provide clerics). By focusing on taxing services over goods you keep a stable tax structure over goods which tend to fluctuate more.

Lastly, by interconnecting the citizens into all aspects of an evil cities schema, you perpetuate what you want from your city.

These are some ideas I have for the city your trying to build. Also, by having a service structured city, when your party is bored, they can be commissioned to adventure, any kind of adventure, to help break any monotony that may form. Hope this helps.

P.S. Remember, "The gold will never go as low as someone is willing to get it."

Randel
2010-09-28, 11:20 PM
Some ideas:

1). Distilled Joy and Liquid Pain:
In the Book of Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness there are spells that can extract Joy or Pain from people to create doses of drugs. Distilled Joy is created with a 3rd level spell (I think) and is extracted from people in a state of joy, it can be uses as a mild drug or provides 3 xp that can be used for crafting or spells. It can also be sold for about 200 gp for some reason.

Liquid Pain is similar but is needs a 4th level spell, is extracted from people in great pain, is highly addictive as a drug, and can be used for the same 3 xp or sold as a drug.

If you've got a means to cast this spell often (via a magic item or by getting lots of Pearls of Power or similar) then you can set up brothels or torture chambers to produce it. Just get some schmucks willing to undergo great pleasure or pain and have their sensation extracted to produce the stuff. Then find a way to make mass producing it profitable and then you can set up an industry. Either drug can be used to provide xp for crafting magical items which could be nice since then you just keep a percentage for your own magic item crafters to make stuff without using up their own experience points.

A permanent Symbol of Pain should be able to keep prisoners in a constant state of agony to generate Liquid Pain from them.

2). Goblin Slaves:
Adventurers make it a habit of killing off whatever goblins, orcs, or members of monstrous races they run across. If your city accepts taking those goblins as slaves to work in some industry (farmers, miners, Liquid Pain generators, etc) then you'll have adventurers lining up to deliver their goods to your doorstep. You can get your own slavers if you want but as long as you control the industry where the slaves are ultimately going to then you can just have other people handling the dirty work.

If you have a good enough system of cleaning out monstrous humanoid populations from other nations then you could put an end to all those nasty orc raiding parties that bug human villages. Other nations would like you for that and it would lower the number of quests available to low level adventurers.

Remember, if you bring about peace for the low-level populations of the surrounding countryside then low level adventurers won't have an opportunity to gain experience by killing goblins.

3). Animal Necromancy:
Allow necromancers to ply their trade, but only with animals (officially). The undead animals can be used for tireless draft animals or whatnot.

Get someone with Fell Animate and Destructive Retribution to kill sheep or chickens repeatedly to turn them into cheap exploding zombies. Then store them up somewhere in huge vaults until an army tries attacking you. Then release the exploding zombie animals to charge the enemy Every zombie that explodes injures living people while simultaneously healing its fellow zombies.

If this works, then exploding farm animals could become a standard defense against attacking armies... like a minefield that can charge at the enemy.

Coidzor
2010-09-29, 01:02 AM
Hmm, for some reason I can't help but think of Zarusians right now.

Probably because they'd greatly resemble your more usual city just with a striking lack of demi-humans.

Making a city from the ground up though...

Well to start with, you'll most likely have to secure some body of water or otherwise create an aqueduct system to secure a water supply for the populace. They'll also need to be able to eat, so nearby farmland is essential. A river with annual flooding is a classic site for a reason, after all that's where cities on earth first developed.



If you don't have an actual river in the area, you could make a canal to divert part/all of a river's flow to where you want. Summoned/called/tamed burrowing creatures of certain persuasions can make that a cinch. Possibly a lyre of building bard as well. Which would help for laying out the primary roads of the city as well.

Since you want to make money off of warfare... Have you considered sponsoring/chartering Mercenary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknecht)companies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries)?

With the right sort of defensive position and civic pride, they won't be usable against you, and can allow you to help perpetuate wars between states that could be rivals, distracting them from your domestic activities.

Finding a way to co-opt those who would become adventurers and direct them in ways profitable to the state would also be prudent.

There lost continents or forgotten islands that are waiting to be rediscovered and plundered? Charter expeditions of adventurers to head off to find them or once found, plumb their mysteries.

Establishing a stable market of magical goods also helps in attracting the business of higher-level types and help make less savory aspects of a society more tolerable if they're dependent upon the society for a stable potions market.

Heck, you could even combine the idea of mercenary companies and chartered/registered adventurers by establishing a sort of trading floor where those who would hire them can more easily get in contact with potential contractors. Or hook up adventurers with foreign employers in exchange for a cut of the profits or a finder's fee and potentially also add an element into the game of information brokering...

Scarey Nerd
2010-09-29, 01:38 AM
These suggestions are all fantastic, I'm in the process of discussing the location with our leader as I speak type :smallsmile:

Keep them coming, folks! Any suggestions welcome, especially concerning the way to set up the social niceties of state, e.g laws etc.

Lysander
2010-09-29, 10:56 AM
Keep them coming, folks! Any suggestions welcome, especially concerning the way to set up the social niceties of state, e.g laws etc.

Hmm, well it sounds like your government is essentially rulership by guilds. So first off, any professional working in your empire must be registered with the appropriate guild and pay dues.

Since the guilds are all government powers it makes sense that each one would have its own army. Perhaps each army would make the most of its guild's talents. For example the mage's guild consists of a small regiment of battlemages. The blacksmith's guild's soldiers only use masterwork armor and swords. The trader's guild consists mainly of naval forces and mounted knights. Etc.