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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5 E6] Factotum 3 / XXX 3. Underdark Campaign build advice needed.



Vin Robinson
2010-09-28, 12:35 PM
Stats are elite array (8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15)
We also get to be a Drow with no LA
Right now my stats are STR 10, DEX 16, CON 11, INT 17, WIS 12, CHA 10

We are using the Pathfinder system for skills, with a lot being rolled in together. (If one of the skills grouped together is on your list, you get all the uses of the skill) The rule is also if you have 1 rank in a class skill you get a +3 bonus to it.

I went Factotum to try and spread out the skill points as much as I could to cover everything.

Our DM also made it so skill tricks all have a requirement of six ranks in their respective skills, so we have access to all of them.

The three levels of Factotum are mostly for Brains over Brawn. I like skills and combat maneuvers, so there you go.

What I want to do with the last three levels is mostly just dip.

What I've been considering so far:

Swashbuckler 3:
Pros - Weapon Finesse, Arcane Stunt, Int to Damage again. Makes me a martial powerhouse, able to get 2xint and my strength to damage. Arcane stunt is fun and would have plenty of uses. Lots of Hitpoints.
Cons - The numbers I produce will probably be on "overkill" side. I don't want an arms race between me and the DM and I would honestly just have more options. I also would still only be at 5 BAB, so no second attack.

Binder 1 or 3:
Pros - With improved binding I get second level vestiges with one level, which will give me a huge list of crazy abilities. Three levels gets me Paimon, who is absolutely awesome for fighting.
Cons - Paimon again might be overkill, but not as much as double my int mod to damage. Pact Magic also ends up being a lot of book keeping for me.

Cloistered Cleric 1:
Pros - Free Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Improved Initiative. True Strike a couple of times a day, free wand activation, what's not to like? Also gives me more flavor of "expanding my horizons" or whatever. Also get turn undead!
Cons - Low hit points, a lot of these are feats I can pick up later. Still, seems super solid to dip in here.

Monk 1:
Pros - Int to AC with Carmedine Monk (Can be made 2x int with an insp point), Free feats, Flurry of Blows (meh)
Cons - I have to be lawful, and in my mind monks are trained somewhere. Hurts my character fluff wise. Also that much AC seems kind of cheesy.

Dragon Shaman 1:
Pros - Three minor auras and a skill bonus. Also gives me something Draconic to tack onto my list of stuff. Appeals to me for some reason.
Cons - Sort of lackluster, there are better options.

Marshall 1:
Minor Aura, but my charisma sucks. I don't know.

Barbarian 1:
Rage would be interesting if not useful. Hitpoints, Fast Movement.

I really need advice where to stick my last three levels. I'm sort of leaning towards Cleric 1 / Binder 1 / Barb 1.

What do you guys think?

Mongoose87
2010-09-28, 12:49 PM
Swash/Factotum has some nice Int synergy and plenty of skill points. Use feats to pick up Assassin's Stance, then grab Daring Outlaw, and you'll have 4d6 Sneak Attack, too.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-28, 01:32 PM
Are you using partial BaB progression? If not, this has a lot of implications for dipping a lot in E6.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-28, 01:50 PM
See if your DM will allow an E6 capstone feat that grants Cunning Surge, in which case you should just take all six in Factotum. If that works out, be sure to get Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) at least three times. Maybe use the Iaijutsu Focus + EWP: Gnome Quickrazor + Grease spell or marbles trick, along with Knowledge Devotion, which should make a potent melee character just staying single-classed. If the DM starts giving opponents Balance ranks you may need to use Flick of the Wrist and the Hidden Blade skill trick to use Iaijutsu Focus after the first round.

If you use Cloistered Cleric, definitely grab the Celerity domain, and the Pride domain is also worth looking at. If you're going to be good aligned, absolutely take three levels of this to get Luminous Armor, get a Lesser Rod of Extend to cast it with, and don't forget about Practiced Spellcaster. (If female, get two Cleric and one Drow Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#drowParagon) instead of Cleric 3.)

Have you considered using Warblade?

Duskblade 3 would get Arcane Channeling, so you could use Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp through your melee weapon. It gets good BAB and decent saves, and you can use wands easily and even Eternal Wands of spells not on your class list.

Person_Man
2010-09-28, 02:29 PM
One level of Master of Masks absolutely rocks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526) for Factotum at ECL 6. It grants proficiency with every martial and Exotic Weapon, which in turn grants all sorts of combos.

My other big suggestion would be Incarnate, which grants access to a wide variety of soulmelds. Noteworthy options for that ECL:

Mage's Spectacles: 4 + (2*essentia) bonus to UMD, Spellcraft, and Decipher Script. With a few ranks in UMD from Factotum and non-dumped Cha you should be able to make the DC 20 needed to activate wands really easily.
Acrobat Boots: 4 + (2*essentia) bonus to Tumble, Balance, Escape Artist, Jump. Again, with a moderate investment from Factotum Skills it's enough to auto-pass any Tumble check and escape from most Grapples.
Dissolving Spittle: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia) acid damage as a ranged touch attack, available every round. Laugh at the Warlock.
Theft Gloves: 2 + (2 * essentia) bonus to Sleight of Hands, Open Lock, Disable Device Bonus. Note that the DC to steal any unattended object from an enemy (spell component pouch, potions, ammunition, non-held magic items) is a fixed DC of 20.
Astral Vembraces: DR 2 + (2 * essentia)/magic.
Mantle of Flame: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia) retributive Fire damage whenever an adjacent enemy hits you. Very useful when combined with Astral Vembraces.
Spellward Shirt: 5 + (4 * essentia) Spell Resistance.
Mauling Gauntlets: 2 + (2 * essentia) bonus to all Str checks (including Bull Rush and Trip). This is a Soulborn soulmeld and thus requires a feat to get, but has excellent synergy with Brains Over Brawn.
Necrocarnum Circlet: Detect Undead at will. When bound to your Crown Chakra, you can Animate Dead at Will. Unfortunately you're limited to 1 Necrocarnate Zombie at a time, and it's HD is limited by your meldshaper level (so in this case it would be 3). But having a constant supply of tackle dummies is very useful.


Your essentia capacity at 6 HD is 2. Incarnate 3 adds +1 to that. A feat can add +1 on top of that for one specific soulmeld. An 22,000 gp magic item adds +1 on top of that for a specific chakra slot. Incarnate 3 gets three soulmelds, 1 chakra bind, and 3 points of essentia, but you can add more through feats and spells.

avr
2010-09-28, 08:54 PM
Warblade 1 is worth considering IMO. With weapon aptitude you're almost as good with exotic weapons as a Master of Masks. You get a level-1 stance (a minor always-on free benefit) and 3 level 1-2 maneuvers which each offer a significant bonus to your attack 1/encounter.

JaxGaret
2010-09-28, 09:46 PM
See if your DM will allow an E6 capstone feat that grants Cunning Surge, in which case you should just take all six in Factotum. If that works out, be sure to get Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) at least three times.

That would be devastatingly strong in E6, especially since FoI scales up as you continue to take it, which is compounded by the fact that after 6th level all you get is feats. :smallsmile:

Draz74
2010-09-29, 01:15 AM
That would be devastatingly strong in E6, especially since FoI scales up as you continue to take it, which is compounded by the fact that after 6th level all you get is feats. :smallsmile:

Except that a Factotum 6 doesn't really have anything he can do with extra standard actions that's "devastatingly strong." Cunning Surge is good in E6, but not that good, unless I'm missing something.

JaronK
2010-09-29, 01:20 AM
Unfortunately you still can't take more Fonts than your Int bonus. Otherwise with the E6 rules you could actually make Cunning Strike exceedingly powerful... 20 Fonts would let you instant kill one enemy per encounter easily and still have IP left over.

Anyway, consider Fighter 1. The drow substitution works amazingly well for a Factotum in this level of play (Dex to damage against flat footed enemies and +2 initiative, plus a bonus feat, in one level? Yes please!).

Unarmed Variant Swordsage is also solid. The various utility manuevers you'd get from a two level dip (taken at level 5 and 6) are amazing, and Assassin's Stance is worth having.

JaronK

JaronK
2010-09-29, 01:22 AM
Except that a Factotum 6 doesn't really have anything he can do with extra standard actions that's "devastatingly strong." Cunning Surge is good in E6, but not that good, unless I'm missing something.

Knowledge Devotion + Manyshot + Cunning Surge = everybody dies in E6. And he's definitely got the feats to burn for that. Yeah, that would be nasty... the first round nova would take out everything in line of sight.

JaronK

Draz74
2010-09-29, 02:29 AM
Knowledge Devotion + Manyshot + Cunning Surge = everybody dies in E6. And he's definitely got the feats to burn for that. Yeah, that would be nasty... the first round nova would take out everything in line of sight.

First of all, I've never been quite as impressed with Cunning Surge + Manyshot as, it seems, I'm supposed to. Lets you fire a little bit more damage off with your extra standard action, yes. But I disagree with the argument that you can use Cunning Insight once to add your INT to damage on multiple arrows using Manyshot (since each arrow uses a separate damage roll), and without that, Manyshot damage still seems like an unimpressive impact for your standard action to have. Not terrible, by any means, but not lethal.

All sort of beside the point, though, since a Factotum in E6 can never actually qualify for Manyshot (BAB +6 requirement).

And Knowledge Devotion, in E6, means you're getting maybe +3 to attack and damage, if you've spent the skillpoints you need to. +4 if you optimize your Knowledge checks particularly hard or roll well; +5 if you optimize and roll well, +2 if you don't optimize or roll slightly poorly. So ... it's pretty good if you roll well, nice but not really impressive otherwise.

Again, this whole combo (if the Factotum could take Manyshot somehow) seems strong, but not devastating. And that's if the DM allows using Cunning Surge multiple times per round (many don't), and after you've gotten enough epic feats to pick up FoI a few times.

JaxGaret
2010-09-29, 10:19 AM
Except that a Factotum 6 doesn't really have anything he can do with extra standard actions that's "devastatingly strong." Cunning Surge is good in E6, but not that good, unless I'm missing something.

Wands, among other things.

JaronK
2010-09-29, 11:44 AM
First of all, I've never been quite as impressed with Cunning Surge + Manyshot as, it seems, I'm supposed to. Lets you fire a little bit more damage off with your extra standard action, yes. But I disagree with the argument that you can use Cunning Insight once to add your INT to damage on multiple arrows using Manyshot (since each arrow uses a separate damage roll), and without that, Manyshot damage still seems like an unimpressive impact for your standard action to have. Not terrible, by any means, but not lethal.

It's Cunning Surge you'd have to use with it. Manyshot lets you fire many arrows as a standard action. Cunning Surge with tons of IP lets you have many standard actions. For damage, you'd use Knowledge Devotion.


All sort of beside the point, though, since a Factotum in E6 can never actually qualify for Manyshot (BAB +6 requirement).

Bah! Didn't notice. Nevermind.


And Knowledge Devotion, in E6, means you're getting maybe +3 to attack and damage, if you've spent the skillpoints you need to. +4 if you optimize your Knowledge checks particularly hard or roll well; +5 if you optimize and roll well, +2 if you don't optimize or roll slightly poorly. So ... it's pretty good if you roll well, nice but not really impressive otherwise.


I'd think a +4 to hit and damage is well worth it in an E6 game. The monsters aren't as big and you have to hit! And since you're pumping Int anyway, you're absolutely going to optimize it. Consider being a Whispergnome for access to the Trivial Knowledge feat (reroll any knowledge check you want once) in addition to all the other goodies Whispergnomes get. Never roll poorly again!


Again, this whole combo (if the Factotum could take Manyshot somehow) seems strong, but not devastating. And that's if the DM allows using Cunning Surge multiple times per round (many don't), and after you've gotten enough epic feats to pick up FoI a few times.

Yeah, it's not a game breaker. But isn't the point of E6 to not break the game? I mean, if we wanted to be devastating we'd go with some sort of Venerable Unseelie Fey Dragonwrought Kobold with Loredrake and the Greater Draconic Rite and use our CL 10 Wings of Flurries to destroy everything that dares enter our personal space. So yeah, it's just a solid strong combo. Handy to have. And if Manyshot were allowed, I think you could easily destroy most E6 opposition in the first round (Two shots surprise round, let's say three Cunning Surges for another 6 shots, so 8 total shots at +4 to hit and damage from KD, all fired from a Greatbow... that could hurt!).

But since Manyshot isn't available, heck with it. I still think Knowledge Devotion is worth having though.

JaronK

Draz74
2010-09-29, 12:01 PM
It's Cunning Surge you'd have to use with it. Manyshot lets you fire many two arrows as a standard action. Cunning Surge with tons of IP lets you have many standard actions. For damage, you'd use Knowledge Devotion.
No, I understand that. I just don't find an additional arrow to be all that much additional damage. (Or two additional arrows, for a high-level non-E6 Factotum.)

Of course it all depends on how much additional non-precision damage you can stack onto your archery (per arrow). KD certainly helps.


I'd think a +4 to hit and damage is well worth it in an E6 game. The monsters aren't as big and you have to hit!
True ... now that I'm more awake, I'd have to agree, +4 damage is actually pretty good in E6.

Note that all the +4 to hit is doing is canceling out the -4 penalty from Manyshot. :smallsigh: (In our hypothetical build that manages to have Manyshot somehow.)


And since you're pumping Int anyway, you're absolutely going to optimize it.
No, I was factoring that into my calculations. Putting a high INT on a Factotum is too obvious to be called "optimizing." :smallamused:

I had in mind things more like custom magic items, or feats spent to improve Knowledge checks. (Which, incidentally, is what you're about to address next ...)


Consider being a Whispergnome for access to the Trivial Knowledge feat (reroll any knowledge check you want once) in addition to all the other goodies Whispergnomes get. Never roll poorly again!
It's sad how often I can manage to roll poorly even with a reroll. :smallannoyed: That aside, this is an interesting option for a KD-Factotum. I can't say I'm familiar with Trivial Knowledge ... where is it from?


So yeah, it's just a solid strong combo. Handy to have.
No doubt. But I think (to get back to the OP's actual question) that I'd rather dip a level in Warblade, a level in Cloistered Cleric, and a level in something else (Master of Masks?).


And if Manyshot were allowed, I think you could easily destroy most E6 opposition in the first round (Two shots surprise round, let's say three Cunning Surges for another 6 shots, so 8 total shots at +4 to hit and damage from KD, all fired from a Greatbow... that could hurt!).
Heh, Whisper Gnome with Greatbow, huh? :smallamused: I guess it works. And three Cunning Surges ... yep, with three Fonts, that's doable (again, assuming the DM allows Surging more than 1/round). Note again, though, that your +4 to hit is canceled out by Manyshot penalties.


But since Manyshot isn't available, heck with it. I still think Knowledge Devotion is worth having though.

True, assuming this character won't be expected to be the party's all-around skillmonkey/trapmonkey. But then, this is another argument in favor of Cloistered Cleric dipping!

Cieyrin
2010-09-29, 01:58 PM
I can't say I'm familiar with Trivial Knowledge ... where is it from?

Races of Stone. Trivial Knowledge (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Trivial_Knowledge)

Tyndmyr
2010-09-29, 02:23 PM
Note that all the +4 to hit is doing is canceling out the -4 penalty from Manyshot. :smallsigh: (In our hypothetical build that manages to have Manyshot somehow.)

The origins of E6 involved all sorts of progression options being availabe for xp. Feats, class features(reworked as feat trees), additional BaB, etc. Basically, sort of a pick-your-own progression thing. It was simplified into what we know as E6 today due to all his players opting for feats.

I play a version more similar to that of the original, and in that, the ability to purchase up to +2 BaB(at normal feat prices for each) opens up a significant amount of options for melee types, and remains fairly well balanced with the casters.

JaronK
2010-09-29, 06:04 PM
I almost forgot... I believe you can get Mindbender 1 in there (at level 6) if you go pure Factotum before that. Mindsight is awesome! Then again, I don't quite remember the Mindbender prerequisites.

JaronK

Person_Man
2010-09-30, 08:50 AM
I almost forgot... I believe you can get Mindbender 1 in there (at level 6) if you go pure Factotum before that. Mindsight is awesome! Then again, I don't quite remember the Mindbender prerequisites.

JaronK

Since this is E6 there is no need for wasting a level if you wanted Mindsight. IIRC Kalashtar (Races of Eberron) get Read Thoughts or Telepathy as an innate psi-like ability. You can pick up Shape Soulmeld (Shedu Crown) to get Immunity to Bull Rush, then Open Least Chakra (Crown) to get all day Telepathy.

true_shinken
2010-09-30, 08:56 AM
IIRC Kalashtar (Races of Eberron) get Read Thoughts or Telepathy as an innate psi-like ability.

Mindlink, actually. Only 1/day.