PDA

View Full Version : Saves for Funny Spells



Noodles2375
2010-09-28, 12:45 PM
I have this Medusa boss planned, and her lair is of course scattered with the usual array of stone statues of various size. She is also going to have some sorcerer/wizard class levels and I wanted her to make use of stone shape during combat to annoy/harass the PC's.

Here's the problem, stone shape allows no save and no SR, but I feel bad about having her use stone shape to transform, for example, a statue of an ogre into a stone box to seal one of the characters away without any save at all.

Thematically it feels like it should have a reflex save, any ideas on how to adjudicate the DC?

Ravens_cry
2010-09-28, 12:57 PM
Using such a spell offensively, it would make sense for a reflex save. 10+3 or4 (Stone Shapes spell level)+ whatever her casting score modifier is the standard for save DC's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm)

Telonius
2010-09-28, 01:09 PM
It would be much worse to use Stone Shape to transform a petrified PC into a box that trapped another PC. :smallamused: (Yes, I am a DM).

Anyway, I'm trying to figure out how the PC is going to get caught in the box. Wouldn't he have to be fairly close to the statue in order for the medusa to catch him in such a box? Even if she were able to manage it, stone is only hardness 8, 15hp per inch. Transmuting even an ogre statue into a box big enough to trap a PC would stretch that stone pretty thin. It wouldn't be that hard to break out, unless it's the Rogue.

Reflex save does sound about right.

Duke of URL
2010-09-28, 01:09 PM
Frankly, I'd find this use to be a bit difficult to pull off in the first place.

1) It's a touch range spell, so the medusa would have to be next to whatever statue she wanted to use.

2) Stone shape says very little about spatial concerns -- however, the volume isn't too terribly large (18 cubic feet [at CL 8] is a cube about 2.6 feet per side and there's nothing saying you can move the object. Therefore, to envelop a living creature, you'd have to reshape it in such a way that it can extend from its current position to do so.

3) Realistically, if you're going to try something like that, the subject should at least get a Reflex save (DC 14 + spellcasting modifier) to avoid it.

cenghiz
2010-09-28, 01:10 PM
Making a box? If you check out the spell description, the caster must knead some clay into the shape she wants and I doubt a single standart action may be enough form an empty container from clay, even if crude.

Why not, instead, have the medusa have a sack full of clay figurines of all the statues in the area. When the chance arises, she simply picks the right figurine, then extends the clay figure's parts enough to be wrapped around the character. Harrassing is still there. She's destroying the original shapes of the statues just for a small advantage.

Stone isn't that hard to break. If the PCs don't learn to keep away from statues after one gets trapped for the first time, let them get trapped. It isn't even as effective as 'web' or 'grease' when used in such a way to trap only one member of the party and it's frigging fourth level. I don't think there's a need for a saving throw, even if you allow the medusa to quickly form coffins for the PCs from the statues. But you are right, the effect is pretty.

As the medusa finishing playing with the clay piece in her hand, the arms of the ogre statue beside Torax the Barbarian extend, wrapping a couple times around him. Torax, you are trapped. You may make a strength DC of 23 (let's assume it's the same as 1 foot think wall) to break the arms wrapped around you or someone other than you with free hands may try breaking it, hardness 8 and HP 18.

Peregrine
2010-09-28, 01:12 PM
The stone being shaped gets no save. If you try and shape a stone enclosure around a creature, DM responses should range from "Reflex save against the DC the spell would have" (as Ravens_cry says) to "the spell fails, stone shape doesn't let you do that".

Let's say that the spell can't entomb someone in stone, just bind them to the floor and entangle them. Compared with other 3rd-level cleric spells, save-or-trapped seems good, but not overpowered. Compared with 4th-level sorcerer/wizard spells, it's perfectly fine.

Is your medusa a sorcerer or a wizard? Medusas have better Cha scores than Int scores. A 7th-level medusa sorceress (CR 14-ish) with, oh, let's say Cha 26 after items and whatnot, would force a Reflex save at DC 22 to avoid being trapped by a stone shape.

Caliphbubba
2010-09-28, 01:37 PM
Was there an errata or something some where because I could have sworn that Stone Shape was 5th level Sor/Wiz spell. If so it seems pretty weak for one, and i think that i'd allow it to be basically used as a save or lose type deal in this situation.

Telonius
2010-09-28, 01:39 PM
Stone Shape is 4, Wall of Stone is 5, Stone to Flesh is 6.

EDIT: And there's your answer - Wall of Stone has text for something like it.


It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.

If a higher-level spell has that kind of a save, a lower-level spell certainly would.

Duke of URL
2010-09-28, 01:41 PM
Now, wall of stone I see being more reasonable here, given that it is shapeable.

Caliphbubba
2010-09-28, 01:42 PM
Stone Shape is 4, Wall of Stone is 5, Stone to Flesh is 6.

well in my Player's Hand Book Stone Shape is listed as Wiz/Sorc 5, Druid 3, Cleric 3 in the spells description. It's listed as a 4th level Wiz/Sorc in the table. Text > Table

Duke of URL
2010-09-28, 01:43 PM
well in my Player's Hand Book Stone Shape is listed as Wiz/Sorc 5, Druid 3, Cleric 3 in the spells description. It's listed as a 4th level Wiz/Sorc in the table. Text > Table

Errata > Text. Direct from WotC's own version of the SRD (which includes all errata):


Stone Shape
Transmutation [Earth]
Level: Clr 3, Drd 3, Earth 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Stone or stone object touched, up to 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft./level
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose. While it’s possible to make crude coffers, doors, and so forth with stone shape, fine detail isn’t possible. There is a 30% chance that any shape including moving parts simply doesn’t work.
Arcane Material Component: Soft clay, which must be worked into roughly the desired shape of the stone object and then touched to the stone while the verbal component is uttered.

The errata itself says:


Stone Shape
Player's Handbook, page 284
The level of stone shape as a Sor/Wiz spell is
inconsistent here with where the spell is located on the
Sor/Wiz spell list (p. 194).
The spell list is correct; here, change “Sor/Wiz 5” to
“Sor/Wiz 4.”

Caliphbubba
2010-09-28, 01:43 PM
Errata > Text.

That's why I asked if there was Errata. thanks.

Peregrine
2010-09-28, 01:47 PM
well in my Player's Hand Book Stone Shape is listed as Wiz/Sorc 5, Druid 3, Cleric 3 in the spells description. It's listed as a 4th level Wiz/Sorc in the table. Text > Table

The SRD and my PHB both say "Level: Clr 3, Drd 3, Earth 3, Sor/Wiz 4".

Hmm... ah, yes. According to the 3e SRD, stone shape was "Level: Clr 3, Drd 3, Earth 3, Sor/Wiz 5" before the 3.5 update. Maybe, just maybe, that's an old PHB you've got there?

EDIT: Or what Duke or URL said. :smalltongue:

Caliphbubba
2010-09-28, 01:53 PM
The SRD and my PHB both say "Level: Clr 3, Drd 3, Earth 3, Sor/Wiz 4".

Hmm... ah, yes. According to the 3e SRD, stone shape was "Level: Clr 3, Drd 3, Earth 3, Sor/Wiz 5" before the 3.5 update. Maybe, just maybe, that's an old PHB you've got there?

It's definatly a 3.5 PHB, I think it's probably the first printing though. They probably corrected it in later runs. I have no problem with it being 4 level, and just wondered if there was an Errate or correction on it from the book that I have.

Noodles2375
2010-09-29, 07:37 AM
Awesome!

For whatever reason I didn't even think that "wall of stone" would be a good template to look to.

Thanks everyone who weighed in, I think I'm going to use it just to have the statues grapple people or things like that. Maybe if she ends up high enough level to cast wall of stone, I can do the entombing when she gets that :)