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Elemist13
2010-09-28, 01:15 PM
Hay everyone,

I'm planning on starting a new campaign and I want to use an Irish theme for my setting. Basically I have the main Island ruled by a monarchy that is held in check by a strict Religion Hierarchy (I'm thinking St. Cuthbert) that is trying to expand into a "wild" island nearby that is held by tribes.

What I'm looking for is looking for a few ideas on creatures and legends and basically any source material that might give me a hand planning it out.

El Dorado
2010-09-28, 01:40 PM
The Moonshae region in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting has a lot of Celtic themed heroes and creatures.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-09-28, 01:54 PM
Planning on conquering Pseudo-Ireland? Gonna need some scary fairies!

Check this out for all your Fey / Sidhe needs. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/fey)

Thinker
2010-09-28, 02:07 PM
You have a couple of options for an Irish themed setting. You could play with, the pre-Christian era or the Christian era. This can wildly change the way the setting feels.

During the pre-Christian era the Celtic gods were heavily worshiped, the druids were a powerful group, and hero worship was the norm. They had early concepts that would eventually become fairies, but that was not the focus of their religion. Honor and combat were very popular, but not in the manner of full-scale war. In Ireland they had a raiding culture: they raided each other and the people of Britain for supplies, weapons, food, and sometimes slaves. Kills were counted in human heads and popular leaders or warriors would keep a cache of skulls representing the warriors who had fallen under their command. Druids were big on sacrificing slaves or outlaws to cure diseases, stave off famine, prevent natural disasters, or recover from some setback. It was generally not considered OK to sacrifice people of the tribe.

Irish Celts also had a different social structure than what we are used to. A land-owning family (called a fine) would have a homestead, which acted similar to a small village or ranch, that would house people and include a bakery, smithy, stables, armory, etc. The fine would be in charge of maintaining the well-being and safety of those who worked the land. Several fines would make makeup a tuath, which is similar to a clan, except that fines could essentially be voted in or out based on their standing. The leader of a tuath was elected by the heads of the fines and was called a ri. He served on a few conditions: the ri had to be physically whole (no missing limbs, fingers, or major scars), he had to rule justly (several stories chronicle the downfall of tyrannical kings), and he had to bring prosperity to the tribe (through raids, trade, or production).

Craftsmen (including entertainers) and priests did not belong to a specific fine or tuath and were expected to be welcomed to a homestead and allowed to work with their supplies and equipment in exchange for some of their products. These were the only two groups who were allowed to travel throughout the land without being harmed by any leaders; even most bandits would think twice before assaulting a priest. Druids were miracle workers, priests, magicians, doctors, and seers all rolled into one. They took credit for everything from the sun rising in the morning to a cool breeze on a hot summer day. Anything bad that happened was considered to be caused by angry gods, angry evil gods (Fomorians), angry spirits, or vengeful priests. Warriors were the leaders of fines and one's honor essentially showed his standing within a family and the clan.

There was also little value placed on the individual in pre-Christian Ireland. Honor was a shared trait among a family, though an individual could promote his family with his deeds, it was always the house that came first. Honor could be gained by combat, by compassion, by revenge, by justice, or anything that promoted the forwarded the goals of the clan. Even winning by cleverness and deception could be considered honorable if it was done in such a way that the enemy could have seen through it. Usually a child would be kept in a foster house from the age of 5 to the age of adulthood to seal alliances and receive training and experience from other places. Often times these people would end up marrying into the family that they had fostered with.

Marriage was also handled far differently. It was more social contract and less religious. Hand-marriages lasting 1 year were very common and were used like a trial run for a long-term marriage. Other lengths of time of 3 to 10 years were also common. Whichever family was wealthier or considered more honorable (as agreed upon by both families) was the family that was married into and even after divorce the person who had married into the family could usually remain. Men and women had equivalent legal standing and both could manage property and pursue similar goals (including warfare).

Revenge was a common form of justice that was acceptable so long as the vengeance was proportionate to the crime. When defeating another in combat the victor was entitled to service or property from the defeated (with additional property being handed over upon the death of the defeated). Often, if the loser was considered untrustworthy the victor would kill him after hearing what he had (and could in the future) gained.

Sports, festivals, and competitions were important to the Celts. They made it a common practice to compete for honor and glory and to strengthen bonds. An early form of soccer was popular, as was horse racing, dueling, running, throwing, and a form of wrestling. Training for both sports and for combat were considered worthy goals. Masters of specific feats were sought by pupils to strengthen mind and body for war.

Various masters were experts in their fields. One master would have his students dance on a stone with a pit of fire in the middle until their feet were blackened and burned every day until they could resist the pain and build calluses. Another involved leaping until the young warrior could jump over a warrior holding a shield. Many feats were very much exaggerated, but would be recognizable in most modern animes.

Three was a sacred number and was always associated with something ominous or fortunate. Horses, lakes, rivers, yew, rowan, apples, salmon, and the stag were also considered religiously important.

I recommend checking this out for more about the deities (at least as starting points): http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/celtic-mythology.php

I don't have time to write up about Christian era Ireland right now, but I hope this helps.

Prime32
2010-09-28, 03:20 PM
Many feats were very much exaggerated, but would be recognizable in most modern animes.SWORDS THAT SHOOT ANTI-CITY LASERS. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caladbolg) Spears that TURN YOUR BLOOD INTO BLADES WHEN THEY HIT YOU. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gae_Bolg) Warriors who get so angry they CATCH FIRE. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn) Guys who PICK UP THE ISLE OF MAN AND THROW IT THE LENGTH OF IRELAND just so they won't GET THEIR FEET WET. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fionn_mac_Cumhaill)

Also there was very little writing, except occasionally among the druids. Laws and histories were kept orally.

There is an "Otherworld" where supernatural creatures live. The gates are the Neolithic tombs fairy mounds scattered across the land. The boundaries between the worlds grew weaker on certain days, particularly at Samhain, when they made lanterns from the heads of their enemies to scare off spirits. Nowadays we use pumpkins instead. :smalltongue:

Leprechauns are one kind of fairy. Not even a common one. And all the stories about leprechauns involve them outwitting people who try to get their gold.

Another_Poet
2010-09-28, 03:46 PM
Druids were big on sacrificing slaves or outlaws to cure diseases, stave off famine, prevent natural disasters, or recover from some setback. It was generally not considered OK to sacrifice people of the tribe.


Actually of the several sacrificial victim bodies that archaeologists have recovered from bogs, all except one show signs of being respected upper-class citiziens; in other words kings, chiefs or druids were more likely to be sacrificed than slaves. According to one classical account of a human sacrifice (highly suspect I know) the Celts considered it an honour to be sacrificed and indeed, the people of the tribe rushed forward to volunteer. In any case there is no evidence of a "foreigners only" sacrifice policy.

Likewise, the reason for sacrifice may not have been to end plagues or other disasters. History of religion expert Bruce Lincoln feels that the early Indo-Europeans believed the universe was created by an act of sacrifice by the first being(s) who existed and, therefore, human sacrifice was a pageant-like re-enactment of the creation of the world. It was less "if we kill this slave the plague god will go away" and more "if we sacrifice our noble king as the First King was sacrificed, his blood will flow into the land and the universe will be sustained for another age."

See his book Death, War and Sacrifice for details.

Of course a fantasy world can put whatever gobbledygook it wants in the mouths of druids, but if you want to make it seem like early Ireland, that's probably the way to go.

Thinker
2010-09-28, 04:17 PM
Actually of the several sacrificial victim bodies that archaeologists have recovered from bogs, all except one show signs of being respected upper-class citiziens; in other words kings, chiefs or druids were more likely to be sacrificed than slaves. According to one classical account of a human sacrifice (highly suspect I know) the Celts considered it an honour to be sacrificed and indeed, the people of the tribe rushed forward to volunteer. In any case there is no evidence of a "foreigners only" sacrifice policy.

Likewise, the reason for sacrifice may not have been to end plagues or other disasters. History of religion expert Bruce Lincoln feels that the early Indo-Europeans believed the universe was created by an act of sacrifice by the first being(s) who existed and, therefore, human sacrifice was a pageant-like re-enactment of the creation of the world. It was less "if we kill this slave the plague god will go away" and more "if we sacrifice our noble king as the First King was sacrificed, his blood will flow into the land and the universe will be sustained for another age."

See his book Death, War and Sacrifice for details.

Of course a fantasy world can put whatever gobbledygook it wants in the mouths of druids, but if you want to make it seem like early Ireland, that's probably the way to go.

That is interesting and certainly contradicts what I have read. Strabo said that sacrifice was for use in telling the future. Caesar mentioned ritualistic burning of slaves with their masters and also about the Celtic belief that the only way to save one life was to sacrifice another. Cassius talks about the sacrificing of captured Roman soldiers by Boudicca in thanks for victories. Different gods were sacrificed to for different reasons and in different ways.

I have read about lower class people offering themselves to be sacrificed in times of disease or famine so that others might live, acting as a scape-victim, but never a prominent person.

Dr Bwaa
2010-09-28, 04:28 PM
I, of course, am hoping you'll go for the pre-Christian Ireland, because it's a favorite source of mine. The guys above me have given you a great outline; in semi-D&D terms I'll lay out some of the heirarchy:

You've got the druids, who are the mystical class of people in charge of keeping the history of the people, healing, divining, and sacrificing. This contains the D&D classes of Druid, Bard, and Cleric. As far as I know, there isn't anything really resembling arcane magic in Irish mythology (although the weapons Prime mentioned have such convoluted origin stories that you could get away with saying that they have arcane enchantments if you want--it would do a good deal to explain their awesomely destructive and controversial powers). The druids are technically the highest class of citizen; bards ride unarmed with armies into battle and are completely exempt from harm of any kind--to kill a bard would be to potentially kill the history of the tribe, which is sacred.

Second only to the druids in status (and then only by technicality), the warrior class is the class that wields all the obvious power. Thinker covered this aspect very thoroughly.

Other people are generally going to fall into NPC classes, but as Thinker said, craftsmen and so on are highly prized and respected as creators of things. This is part of the reason bards are so revered; they were said to have supernatural abilities with poetry and music (in D&D terms I would certainly make barding casting divine rather than arcane).

For a very entertaining account of the very, early Celts in Ireland, I would heartily recommend Morgan Llywelyn's Bard. For a later story, set in the early post-Roman era, read her Lion of Ireland. Both of these are very flavorful and well-written.



That is interesting and certainly contradicts what I have read. Strabo said that sacrifice was for use in telling the future. Caesar mentioned ritualistic burning of slaves with their masters and also about the Celtic belief that the only way to save one life was to sacrifice another. Cassius talks about the sacrificing of captured Roman soldiers by Boudicca in thanks for victories. Different gods were sacrificed to for different reasons and in different ways.

I have read about lower class people offering themselves to be sacrificed in times of disease or famine so that others might live, acting as a scape-victim, but never a prominent person.

You guys may well be talking about different time periods altogether--Boudicca may well have sacrificed captured Roman soldiers (she'd have had good reason to), whereas in "calmer" times ("" for relativity) the important citizens themselves would offer to be sacrificed in order to imbue more certainty into an important divination. The very early Celts seemed to be far more likely to sacrifice sheep or other animals instead of humans at all (though their relatively small populations on Ireland may well have contributed to that).

Cieyrin
2010-09-28, 05:00 PM
If you're the sort of a shorter attention span, I would recommend looking into Nethergate: Resurrection by Spiderweb Software (http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/nethergateres/index.html) for an example of how you can turn the ancient mythologies into a fantastical one, this one specifically in the late pre-Christian era. The game gives you the option of playing from both sides of the conflict of the time, as either the Celts or the Romans. It's not a perfect recreation by any means but it works well for what it does. I recommend it highly. :smallsmile:

Prime32
2010-09-28, 05:12 PM
Speaking of which, 100,000 Celts once fought 10,000 Romans. The Celts were massacred.

Yeah, they didn't focus much on fighting as a group.

Coidzor
2010-09-28, 05:30 PM
Speaking of which, 100,000 Celts once fought 10,000 Romans. The Celts were massacred.

Yeah, they didn't focus much on fighting as a group.

I believe people like to make a comparison between lions and tigers when discussing it, really.

Cieyrin
2010-09-28, 05:34 PM
Speaking of which, 100,000 Celts once fought 10,000 Romans. The Celts were massacred.

Yeah, they didn't focus much on fighting as a group.

That's just a testament to the strength of the Roman phalanx, really. Sacrificing individualism for the good of the group can have it's hallmarks. Probably wouldn't work well in D&D, as individualism tends to be more effective in creating a well rounded group.

Thinker
2010-09-28, 05:45 PM
Speaking of which, 100,000 Celts once fought 10,000 Romans. The Celts were massacred.

Yeah, they didn't focus much on fighting as a group.

I'll assume you're referring to the Battle of Watling Street. The Romans had a significant terrain advantage and were very well equipped, while the Celts had largely disarmed before the rebellion took place. The assault itself was a poor tactic. Most historians discount the numbers listed by Tacitus, though the Romans were likely heavily outnumbered. The Roman figures for the Celts (including the casualties) also include the battle's spectators who had come to watch the Celtic army. There is also a problem of bodies: none have been found from the battle, meaning the number of casualties may have actually been quite low.

Dr Bwaa
2010-09-28, 06:31 PM
Yeah, they didn't focus much on fighting as a group.

That's a good point. Celtic warfare, while the glory is shared with the other warriors and with family and clan, was very individualistic (take any medieval-era war movie that doesn't focus on the power of fighting as a unit, and picture the fight scenes. Main characters going toe-to-toe with one or two guys at a time? That's pretty much how the Celts liked it. Which is ideal for D&D, btw).

Elemist13
2010-09-28, 07:17 PM
I was most likely thinking of starting them out near the time that Britain had started to "invade" Ireland. I was planning on taking huge liberties when doing this with the story line, but all of this information has been very helpful.

I was also planning on having the church structure of Britain being very ingrained into that society and having arcane magic banned due to "witch" hunts.

Thinker
2010-09-28, 07:29 PM
I was most likely thinking of starting them out near the time that Britain had started to "invade" Ireland. I was planning on taking huge liberties when doing this with the story line, but all of this information has been very helpful.

I was also planning on having the church structure of Britain being very ingrained into that society and having arcane magic banned due to "witch" hunts.

Are you talking about the Norman invasion of Ireland? If so, everything in this thread is completely irrelevant.