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randomhero00
2010-09-28, 02:18 PM
For those that don't want to do a specific build, like a tripper, or ubercharger. What are some good all around feats, like weapon focus? For a two handed weapon and power attacking for reasonable (i.e. non ubercharger) amounts. I don't want dips into psywar or lion totem barb for pounce like stuff or anything snazy. Just feat suggestions for a more standard melee type that is probably a pure class.

I'm specifically not mentioning a build because I want them to be general feats (as I'd like this list for future go-to feats for characters). So far I have weapon focus, power attack, and improved crit. What else? As you can see I usually play casters...

FirebirdFlying
2010-09-28, 02:29 PM
Martial Study/Stance? The particular maneuver would probably depend on the character.

dsmiles
2010-09-28, 02:33 PM
For those that don't want to do a specific build, like a tripper, or ubercharger. What are some good all around feats, like weapon focus? For a two handed weapon and power attacking for reasonable (i.e. non ubercharger) amounts. I don't want dips into psywar or lion totem barb for pounce like stuff or anything snazy. Just feat suggestions for a more standard melee type that is probably a pure class.

I'm specifically not mentioning a build because I want them to be general feats (as I'd like this list for future go-to feats for characters). So far I have weapon focus, power attack, and improved crit. What else? As you can see I usually play casters...

I notice you don't have limitations on books set out. Personally, I may burn four feats to get Wild Talent, Speed of Thought, Psionic Charge, and Up the Walls. You can pull off Psionic Weapon and Greater Psionic Weapon with Wild Talent, too. But people accuse me of not being an optimizer, so take it as you will.

Shenanigans
2010-09-28, 02:39 PM
So you're looking to hit often and relatively hard? Maybe the Weapon Focus/Spec/Supremacy line would work for you. Maybe some Combat Reflexes and derivative feats also. Power Attack is pretty standard like you said.

Do you have anything more specific in mind? Tricks like tripping, sundering, bull rush, overrun?

Ernir
2010-09-28, 02:43 PM
For those that don't want to do a specific build, like a tripper, or ubercharger. What are some good all around feats, like weapon focus? For a two handed weapon and power attacking for reasonable (i.e. non ubercharger) amounts. I don't want dips into psywar or lion totem barb for pounce like stuff or anything snazy. Just feat suggestions for a more standard melee type that is probably a pure class.

I'm specifically not mentioning a build because I want them to be general feats (as I'd like this list for future go-to feats for characters). So far I have weapon focus, power attack, and improved crit. What else? As you can see I usually play casters...

I'd consider a PsyWar and Lion Totem Barb be examples of "standard melee types", especially if taken to 20. :smalltongue:

Anyway, this list is going to vary immensely depending on the sources you have available. All the feats you mentioned are from the PHB, is that all you have? If so, it's... pretty much what you mentioned, along with the remainder of the Weapon Focus tree. If you have non-core sources, the value of Weapon Focus and Imp. Crit drops a lot, but PA becomes more powerful.

Feats that tend to end up on pretty much all my melee'ers include...
Power Attack + Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer)
Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion)
Wolf Lodge Berserker (Unapproachable East) + Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit (PHB2) and/or Karmic Strike (CWar)
Stormguard Warrior (Tome of Battle)

I suggest you look at Person_Man's guide to melee combos. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7047955&posted=1) It contains a lot of non-class specific melee advice.

randomhero00
2010-09-28, 02:48 PM
Sorry I forgot to mention sources. No actually I have almost all sources available.

Thanks for that guide.

Keld Denar
2010-09-28, 02:55 PM
Look at your Constitution, now look at your Wisdom, back at your Constitution. Sadly, your Wisdom is not your Constitution, but you COULD get a bonus to your Will save like the Wisdom your Constitution looks like. Now look at your Fort save, then back at me, now back at your Fort save. Natural ones are now diamonds and no longer cause you to auto-fail Fort saves.

I'm on a Phantom Steed.

Dee de dee dede de dede!

(PS, check out Steadfast Determination in the PHBII. Its a good all around melee feat for anyone with a beefy Con (which you should have) and a saggy Wisdom (which you probably also have). Requires Endurance as a prereq...

ericgrau
2010-09-28, 02:56 PM
Knowing the books allowed is still helpful. For example I misjudged my group's power level and managed to get the fighter banned for taking feats like ranged weapon mastery and auto-hitting everything for high (but not ubercharger) damage. I was a fighter / epic arcane archer. The monk was already banned because of all the disgusting combos forums came up with years ago when the DM was still browsing forums. That is more or less the entire class banlist. I find this amusing.

You could take melee weapon mastery but I'd check the optimization level of your group first. A series of +X's from this and similar feats that stack with everything means you have to roll X lower to hit which causes a dramatic increase in the number of hits and thus damage. Most people undervalue a +X, so this could be something you could slip by your DM but shouldn't.

Thus in core the best melee feats tend to be the fighter tree. Even weapon specialization is still better than power attack, because of the AB penalty PA causes in core. Improved initiative and the save boosting foots are mediocre general purpose feats you may also choose. Dodge and combat expertise are decent if you already have a good AC, as you then get hit 4 out of 20 times instead of 5 out of 20, or even less to the point of unhitability with CE (but only hitting the monsters half the time). For two handers it's more like 8-9/20 => 6-7/20 (or lower at the expense of AB, but not quite unhittable), so it's less special. Otherwise you pretty much have the whole list. You're going to have to pick a specialty to take it any further in core, or even in splatbooks your options are going to be either more +X, or select a specialty.

The core specialties are: special attacks, combat reflexes, unarmed combat tree, mounted feats, archery feats, mook wiping feats (PA tree, including PA itself btw b/c mooks are easier to hit), shield bashing, TWF and weapon finesse.

EDIT: @V Ya, even without making an ubercharger splatbooks add much more power than core. Thus a book list and how far your group is willing to go could help others give you some answers. For example in my group X to Y feats like steadfast determination are banned... and I still accidentally overdid it. Shocktrooper is taking the first big step into ubercharger territory, and I'm not sure that's what the OP wants.

Telonius
2010-09-28, 02:57 PM
Weapon Focus & Co. are not really very good all-around feats unless you're limited to Core.

The Tactical Feats found in Complete Warrior are a very good place to start. Shock Trooper is pretty standard for increasing damage. Elusive Target can drive your enemies nuts, if your DM likes to power attack or throw hordes of mooks at you. Combat Brute can be great, especially if combined with Dungeoncrasher.

If you're limited to Core, you really can't go wrong with Improved Initiative and Quick Draw.

SurlySeraph
2010-09-28, 03:09 PM
Three Mountains is nice. Makes your enemies make Fort saves vs. nausea when you hit them.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-28, 03:20 PM
Look at your Constitution, now look at your Wisdom, back at your Constitution. Sadly, your Wisdom is not your Constitution, but you COULD get a bonus to your Will save like the Wisdom your Constitution looks like. Now look at your Fort save, then back at me, now back at your Fort save. Natural ones are now diamonds and no longer cause you to auto-fail Fort saves.

I'm on a Phantom Steed.

Dee de dee dede de dede!


That was GREAT! *loves*

jiriku
2010-09-28, 03:44 PM
Combat Reflexes is really useful for a lot of different types of melee fighters. Weapon Finesse is greatly superior to Weapon Focus if your Dexterity is 4 or more points higher than your Strength. Robilar's Gambit is potentially useful for almost any build that deals a lot of damage in a single attack.

ericgrau
2010-09-28, 03:52 PM
Fun random weapon finesse fact: Dex based melee (not counting rogues and etc.) usually falls behind str based melee except when you're forced to wear light armor. Then they're about equal, and even a melee elf is good. Something to try for your next low level ocean campaign (swimming in heavy armor is not fun).

Person_Man
2010-09-28, 03:52 PM
You may wish to peruse the Melee Combo Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7047955&posted=1). Chock full of different options.

Weapon Focus is one of the worst feats in the game. Please, do not ever take it.

Here are some strong "generic" suggestions that don't rely on a specific combo:

Acheron Flurry: You can spend a Standard Action to restrict your enemy to a single Move or Standard action on his next turn. No To-Hit roll, no Save, it just happens. There are various little restrictions on this, but it’s a great way to prevent a boss enemy from making a full attack or Summoning while your friends pummel him. Requires Improved Unarmed Strike and 15 Wis and Dex. Planar Handbook pg 37.
Ancestral Relic: Pick one item (usually a weapon). You can sacrifice treasure to improve that item, bypassing the need to sell stuff at the standard 50% mark down. Assuming your DM plays using standard wealth by level and doesn’t short change you because he knows you have this feat, this is a great choice for long running campaigns. Book of Exalted Deeds pg 39.
Fearless Destiny: Once per day when you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are instead reduced to -9 and stable. A lot cheaper then Resurrection. Races of Destiny pg 152.
Leadership: The most straitforward way of improving any class. PHB.
Chosen of Evil: As an Immediate Action take a point of Con damage to gain an Insight bonus equal to the number of Vile feats you have (including this one) to any attack, Save, ability check, or Skill check. There are actually a wide variety of useful Vile feats, which can add reach, natural weapons, immunities, Fear and Confusion effects. So it wouldn't be hard for a mid-level human melee build to get an at-will +5ish bonus to pretty much anything, and the ability damage is amazingly easy to deal with via a soulmeld or vestige. Elder Evils.
Insane Defiance: As an Immediate Action when you are targeted by a Mind Affecting spell or spell like ability, you can take a point of Wis damage to redirect it to another target. Andgain, ability damage is easy to deal with. Elder Evils pg 13.
Deformity (Madness): You take a -4 penalty to your Wisdom, but gain immunity to mind-affecting effects. Once per minute you can add 1/2 your character level to any Will Save. I prefer Insane Defiance, but note that Insane Defiance only applies to magic, whereas Madness applies to everything. Elder Evils pg 13.
Combat Acrobat: You can make a DC 20 Balance check to negate being knocked Prone. You can also make a DC 15 check to ignore up to 4 squares of difficult terrain. PHBII pg 76.
Combat Panache: Offers several maneuvers. The main benefit is that you can make an Intimidate check (Move Action) to impose your Cha bonus as a penalty to hit against one enemy until the end of the encounter. In addition, after an enemy hits you, you can make a Bluff check to play dead. Both abilities are great for BBEG fights. PHBII pg 93.
Arcane Schooling: You’re treated as having one level of one arcane class for the purpose of activating spell trigger items (like Wands). Hello buff spells, good bye UMD! Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 33.
Eilservs School: When you strike a creature with a magic staff, it deals +1 damage for every 10 charges it contains. And if you strike a creature with both ends, you can activate one of the spells in the staff as a Swift action. Note that staffs can contain spells of any level. So this feat combined with Arcane Schooling or UMD makes any TWF build into a mini-Duskblade. Drow of the Underdark pg 56.
Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra: Magic of Incarnum is chock full of useful powers, and most of them can be accessed with feats. Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Dimension Door, Telepathy, extra natural weapons, various Immunities, and so on. Magic of Incarnum.
Bind Vestige: Grants you a vestige power from a limited list. You can gain a second power by taking the Practiced Binder feat, and expand the list of powers you can choose from by taking the Improved Bind Vestige feat. Tome of Magic pg 72.
Martial Stance and Study: As everyone has already noted, you can access most of the Tome of Battle with feats.
Minor Shapeshift: As long as you have any Polymorph spell of 4th level or higher memorized, you can spend a Swift Action to give yourself temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice. Very useful for ECL 14ish+ half caster builds, as this can be used every turn to help with Tanking. Complete Arcane pg 45.
Item Familiar: Can do tons of things, with the most notable being a bonus to 1 Skill equal to your level + 3. Unearthed Arcana.
Saddleback: You can Take 10 on Ride checks and use Ride in place of Reflex Saves once per round for you and your mount. Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 43.
Tomb Tainted Soul: You are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive. Now your allies can dump Uttercold or Enervated spells in the middle of combat to heal you and harm (non-undead) enemies. Libris Mortis pg 31.
Tunnel Fighter: When you hit your enemy from higher ground (like when you’re mounted, or climb/fly above the enemy), your enemy must make a Balance check or be knocked Prone or give up his next Move action. When in a tunnel, you can block line of site, so your enemies can’t target your allies standing behind you. (Useful if you spend a lot of time in dungeons). Requires that you be a Dwarf or Gnome. Dungeonscape pg 46.
Divine Defiance: Burn a turn/rebuke undead use to counter a spell as an Immediate Action. You must still have Dispel Magic or the same spell available though, but that's not that big of a deal for half-casters and people with wands. Fiendish Codex II, pg 83.
Persistent Refusal: Burn a turn/rebuke use as a Swift Action to make a second Save against any effect that targets you and has a continuing duration. Fiendish Codex II, pg 85.

Seffbasilisk
2010-09-28, 04:46 PM
Blindfight is surprisingly useful.

Power Attack to reduce to-hit for damage.
Combat Expertise to reduce to-hit for AC.

There are a few that give you maneuvers, spells, or powers.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-28, 11:12 PM
Look at your Constitution, now look at your Wisdom, back at your Constitution. Sadly, your Wisdom is not your Constitution, but you COULD get a bonus to your Will save like the Wisdom your Constitution looks like. Now look at your Fort save, then back at me, now back at your Fort save. Natural ones are now diamonds and no longer cause you to auto-fail Fort saves.

I'm on a Phantom Steed.


Ok, what is that from? This is the third time in barely a week I've seen someone post something like that. Fax had one in an abrupt jaunt thread, and I forget the other one, it was in webcomics I think...

If you've got a very good hit percentage, I'd say that Slashing Fury in PHB2 is useful. But you need a really good to-hit, otherwise that -5 you take to all attacks really hurts.

Improved Initiative, it's always useful to go first.

Mageslayer tree is also useful for any noncaster. Or I guess Paladin/rangers, casters who don't get into spellbattle, and use a lot of spells for swift 1 round buffs.

Endarire
2010-09-28, 11:21 PM
Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) has a spiffy feats section.

Keld Denar
2010-09-29, 01:33 AM
Ok, what is that from? This is the third time in barely a week I've seen someone post something like that. Fax had one in an abrupt jaunt thread, and I forget the other one, it was in webcomics I think...

Its from Old Spice. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owGykVbfgUE) I've done two of them. The other one, I think gallagher has as a sig. It concerns determining what level powers a given Ardent can learn at any given level, depending on their Manifester Level.

Found it:

Just look at your ML, then down at the wizard chart, then back to your ML. Your ML is now diamonds. What ever level spells a wizard could cast, you can learn. Sadly, you are not a wizard, but you can manifest powers like the wizard you smell like.

I'm on a phantom steed.

Optimator
2010-09-29, 01:48 AM
Close Quarters Combat. Learn it, love it, live it. Melee types virtually immune to improved grab? Fantastic, especially for Warblades.

Keld Denar
2010-09-29, 01:55 AM
CQF works best when coupled with a versatile reach weapon. Remember, you can't AoO what you can't reach (without houseruling). If you have 5' reach, and the huge owlbear with 10' reach wants to hug you, you are SoL. If you had 10' reach, however, you'd have a fighting chance. If you were enlarged, you'd have 20' reach and could fight off nearly all wanna-be grapplers smaller than collosal size.

Saintheart
2010-09-29, 07:32 AM
Although it's steps down the road of a build, given Intimidate is a class skill for fighters, have you considered a fear build? Invest in Intimidating Rage and then take the skill trick Never Outnumbered and you can affect people with shaken checks. And that's just for starters.

dsmiles
2010-09-29, 07:43 AM
I notice you don't have limitations on books set out. Personally, I may burn four feats to get Wild Talent, Speed of Thought, Psionic Charge, and Up the Walls. You can pull off Psionic Weapon and Greater Psionic Weapon with Wild Talent, too. But people accuse me of not being an optimizer, so take it as you will.

I forgot one feat to make this work. I believe it's called Fleet of Foot (non-FR version), or maybe just Fleet. It allows you to make a 90 degree turn during a charge. Put these five together and you have a 40' charge that takes you up the wall. How cool is that? Yes, it was inspired by Prine of Persia: Sands of Time's combat, but who doesn't want to charge up the wall?

herrhauptmann
2010-09-29, 09:33 AM
Item Familiar is good. Often seen it recommended as a way of filling a random empty feat slot. It's in Unearthed arcana and the SRD.

Leadership can be good, but I'd suggest only doing it with a high charisma character, and a lenient DM. You don't want your cohort to be a 9th level expert do you?


Old spice commercials eh? So glad I don't bother watching TV anymore.

sdream
2010-09-29, 09:44 AM
Old spice commercials eh? So glad I don't bother watching TV anymore.

I don't watch broadcast TV either (thank you netflix streaming) and I've found I now enjoy commercials much more, since I see them only when and how I want to.

The old spice ones are sort of funny.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-29, 10:05 AM
I'd consider a PsyWar and Lion Totem Barb be examples of "standard melee types", especially if taken to 20. :smalltongue:

Lion Totem is overrated, IMO. Personally, I prefer eagle Totem. Unlike all the other totems, it doesn't trade away uncanny dodge and it's improved cousin, instead sacrificing only the movement and trap sense. Both of those are completely expendable. In return, you get a minor spot bonus, which is handy, but not amazing, and lightening reflexes. That's a very useful feat. The +2 damage on charges from lion is nice, but relatively minor by higher levels.

Overall melee feats:
Iron Will. Underrated. Being taken out of the fight or mind controlled really, really sucks. A 10% higher chance to avoid that is not to be ignored. Optimizers can utilize Otoyugh Hole to minimize cost. Ignore this one if you utilize some means of complete immunity to mind affecting(ie, necropolitan).

Other methods of boosting will saves. Some of these are better than Iron Will. I suggest popping open Complete Scoundrel, and examining the luck feats. Note the one that allows you to convert a natural 1 into a natural 20. On any save. Also the one allowing you to reroll your init. These are your friends.

Combat Reflexes. If you have dex, you probably want this.

EWP(Spiked Chain). You probably already understand why.

Powerful Charge. From ECS, it adds another damage die to your charge, depending on size. There are already many reasons for melee types to increase size, and to charge.

Stand Still. Because battlefield control with ridiculous DCs is awesome.

Mage Slayer. Don't optimize against weak targets. Optimize against the dangerous opponents. Thus, mage slayer.

Of course, your standard power attack, shock trooper, improved init, etc are all juicy and good too.

IIRC, theres also a feat somewhere called item attunement. Basically, if you make your UMD check once to use a magic item, you can use it all day without risk. Often more efficient than boosting a cross class UMD to high levels. Play with a wand in the morning till it works, then stick it in the wand slot for your weapon.

Greenish
2010-09-29, 10:14 AM
Lion Totem is overrated, IMO. Personally, I prefer eagle Totem. Unlike all the other totems, it doesn't trade away uncanny dodge and it's improved cousin, instead sacrificing only the movement and trap sense. Both of those are completely expendable. In return, you get a minor spot bonus, which is handy, but not amazing, and lightening reflexes. That's a very useful feat. The +2 damage on charges from lion is nice, but relatively minor by higher levels.I should think people are referring to Spirit Lion Totem (CChamp), which trades Fast Movement for Pounce. Unlike UA totems, it's an ACF, not a variant class, so you can have an UA totem and a CChamp spiritual totem.

[Edit]: That is, assuming your variant class still gets the feature to trade.

Ernir
2010-09-29, 10:16 AM
Lion Totem is overrated, IMO. Personally, I prefer eagle Totem. Unlike all the other totems, it doesn't trade away uncanny dodge and it's improved cousin, instead sacrificing only the movement and trap sense. Both of those are completely expendable. In return, you get a minor spot bonus, which is handy, but not amazing, and lightening reflexes. That's a very useful feat. The +2 damage on charges from lion is nice, but relatively minor by higher levels.

Uh, the lion totem people usually talk about is the *Spirit* Lion Totem, from Complete Champion. That one trades away Fast Movement for Pounce, which is an awesome trade. The "regular" Lion Totem from UA kind of stinks.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-29, 10:17 AM
Ah, that makes much more sense. I always wondered why people cared so much about +2 dmg. Pounce is actually quite handy.

Unfortunately, all the barbarian variants trade off fast movement already. So, probably not usable in conjunction unless you have a very lenient DM who allows you to take levels in multiple variants of barbarian as if they were different classes.

Greenish
2010-09-29, 10:20 AM
Unfortunately, all the barbarian variants trade off fast movement already.Except Horse and Wolf. Wolf actually gains Imp. Trip instead of Uncanny Dodge, so you bypass both needing 13 int and Combat Expertise.

Zhalath
2010-09-29, 08:04 PM
Look at your Constitution, now look at your Wisdom, back at your Constitution. Sadly, your Wisdom is not your Constitution, but you COULD get a bonus to your Will save like the Wisdom your Constitution looks like. Now look at your Fort save, then back at me, now back at your Fort save. Natural ones are now diamonds and no longer cause you to auto-fail Fort saves.

I'm on a Phantom Steed.

Dee de dee dede de dede!

(PS, check out Steadfast Determination in the PHBII. Its a good all around melee feat for anyone with a beefy Con (which you should have) and a saggy Wisdom (which you probably also have). Requires Endurance as a prereq...

You deserve an internet high-five for that.
http://classicfun.ws/wp-content/uploads/internet-high-five-place-hand-here-right-480x444.jpg

To whoever suggested the Wild Talent->other psionic feats dip, I'd supplement that with a little PsyWar dipping anyway. Some of those buffs can be handy (though none spring to mind. Knowledge (psionics) fail.)

I actually have a question: Can you use a charge with Spring Attack?

Keld Denar
2010-09-29, 08:33 PM
Nope. No charging with Spring Attack. Charging is a full round action. Spring Attack requires a move action and an attack action. If you do one, you won't have enough actions left to do the other. And no, they don't combine in some mystic unspoken way...sorry.

imdmoogleking
2010-09-29, 10:25 PM
If this is more of a heavy armor character, the Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater version of said feat (Races of Stone) are pretty nice. Improved Initiative is always helpful, if you have a spare feat slot or two.

dgnslyr
2010-09-29, 10:46 PM
When in doubt, Improved Initiative or Martial Study.