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Galsiah
2010-09-28, 09:55 PM
Hello all, I am currently running a campaign in which my players are unwittingly taking part in a war between all major aligned forces of the multiverse, and inspired by the recent Asmodeus thread, I am now trying to find information on how the Lords of the Nine interact with one another, how strong each is, just any general details about how Baator works really. I'm starting with Baator because the PC's have sided with the devils for the time being, and would like to flesh out the next session a bit more thoroughly. Any help is much appreciated :smallbiggrin:

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-28, 09:56 PM
Are you using BoVD? Dicefreaks? Fiendish Codex? How "epic" are you going for here? How strong do you want the Nine to be?

Xefas
2010-09-28, 11:50 PM
Well, so far as I can tell, relationship wise, it goes a bit like this (this is from memory, so there may be some inaccuracies):

Bel
Friendly terms with everyone. Basically, he's an real time strategy gamer turned Pit Fiend and he'd like nothing better to do with his afterlife than wage endless war with the Abyss. He takes care of the other Lords obligation to the Blood War, and in exchange, none of the other Lords messes with him. They all want him to stay in office so they can get done what they want to get done.

Dispater
Old war buddies with Asmodeus and Mephistopheles. They fought the ancient demons together when the multiverse was young. Dispater seems loyal to Asmodeus and doesn't much care about anyone else. None of the other Lords sink much effort into deposing him because he's the master of defense. He has no offense to speak of, and is thus not much of a threat. Conversely, it would take 100x more effort to take him down, and then you're left open as easy pickings for the other Lords.

Mammon
Everyone hates him. Everyone. He's sleaziness incarnate. He respects nothing, has no ethics, no honor, no dignity. Just about any other Lord would jump at the chance to murder his ugly face. Heck, just about any other sapient being in the multiverse would jump at the chance to murder his ugly face.

Fierna
The big conflict with her is from Belial, her dad. He used to rule the layer, but let his daughter be in charge as a scapegoat. He would rule through her, letting her be his puppet, and if someone gets assassinated, it'd probably be her and not him. However, she grew a backbone eventually and doesn't like the condescending way dear old dad treats her. To that end, she made an *ahem* alliance with Glasya. She hopes that, together, the two of them can get rid of Belial and be bestest best friends forever. Asmodeus doesn't really approve of Glasya spending so much time with Fierna. He isn't pissed yet, but it might be only a matter of time. The first time Glasya comes home with a tattoo and a nose-ring, heads will roll for certain.

Levistus
Well, he stabbed Asmodeus' wife to death. Yeeeeah. Asmodeus and Glasya both hate him, and for that reason, he's a pretty undesirable ally for anyone. No one knows if when they help Levistus out, Asmodeus'll just turn them into a newt, but they don't want to risk it and find out. Similarly, Levistus hates Asmodeus and wants him dead in a big way. He has the hots for Glasya, but, once again, he killed her mom, so that seems like a case of barking up the wrong bush.

Glasya
Asmodeus' little girl. She's buddies with Fierna, hates Levistus, and is really the worst possible target for attack. Asmodeus would take a direct attack on his person much less personally than attacking his sweet innocent daughter. Kill her, and watch as 10,000 full-hitdie Pit Fiends spontaneously teleport adjacent to you. Right before the nuke hits. And then your soul implodes, for good measure.

Baalzebul
Here is where the big, open conflicts get going. Ol' Baalzebul wants the throne and he's in a better position than most to get it. He's actually a fallen angel, much like Mephistopheles, and Dispater, so that might give him a little social pull with them. On the downside, he's also a nasty slug monster that no amount of Axe deodorant and Irish Spring is going to clean up. Still, he's the 3rd baddest dude in Hell, and so makes a good potential ally.

Mephistopheles
He's so damn cool that cultists actually confuse him and Asmodeus all the time. He invented hellfire. All that "fire" that mortals keep attributing to Hell? That's him. He's a suave, smart, magnificent bastard, and a good candidate for the next Ruler of Hell. Even Asmodeus likes his style. He openly wars with Baalzebul and Asmodeus, regularly trash talking and showing absolutely no shame.

Asmodeus
Well, everyone wants his spot in the end. He's possibly the single strongest entity in the Planes, double that within the bounds of Baator. You ally with him, and you win. You fight him, you lose. Levistus still tries out of hate, Mephisto and Baalzy still try out of misguided ambition. Dispater, Bel, and Glasya are all (more or less) loyal to him. Fierna and Mammon probably send the occasional stripper coated in poison, or fruitcake filled with holy symbols coated in poison, or obligatory legion of cornugons (coated in poison, probably), but they don't try for reals. They know they're much better off trying to take out some of the weaker lords to grow their power.

evil-frosty
2010-09-29, 12:15 AM
I dont really have anything to add to that, thats exceedingly thorough one thing though I believe Dispater and Mephistopheles technically do have an alliance i dont remember how strong it is though.

But I always thought was a cool idea was having an adventure/campaign revolve around the PCs unwittingly help give Asmodeous his power, seems like a rather cool idea to me plus you get to make the Hells however you want which is pretty fun and has plenty of opportunity for just about any type of gaming style. You would have to go ways back in history though if you want to even remotely stick to the standard fluff.

JonestheSpy
2010-09-29, 12:20 AM
Asmodeus
Well, everyone wants his spot in the end. He's possibly the single strongest entity in the Planes, double that within the bounds of Baator.

Demogorgon can kick Asmodeus's ass, just sayin'. Not that it would be easy, but all that "Asmodeus is teh ULTIMATE" stuff is just Baatorian propaganda that's convinced the gullible.

Lord_Gareth
2010-09-29, 12:23 AM
Eh, I have no respect for demons. The whole "embodiment of CE" translates to "embodiment of being a psychotic moron who can't stick to a grocery list, let alone a plan".

Deth Muncher
2010-09-29, 12:25 AM
Xefas, I'm pretty sure that analysis of the Nine is the single most hilarious and informative thing I've read on the Internets. And I read Cracked.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 01:48 AM
Xefas, I'm pretty sure that analysis of the Nine is the single most hilarious and informative thing I've read on the Internets. And I read Cracked.

Quote. For. Truth.

Frosty
2010-09-29, 02:27 AM
I think we need to write a soap opera starring the Lords of the Nine. Seriously. This thing almost writes itself.

It could like an ultra-violent version of Gossip Girls...

hamishspence
2010-09-29, 04:16 AM
At the time BoVD was written, Demogorgon was CR 30 and Asmodeus CR 32.

When the demon lords were revised in the Demonomicon of Iggwilv articles, Demogorgon became CR 33.

So- if the archdevils are revised in the same fashion- even if you don't go quite as far as Dicefreaks did- Asmodeus should have a CR 2 points higher than Demogorgon's.

Also- I like that analysis of the Nine. Hilarious yet accurate.

Caliphbubba
2010-09-29, 06:47 AM
I've really enjoyed the take that the Dicefreaks have on The Nine Hells, and the Lords of the Nine. I don't think that the forum is very active anymore but here is a link. http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/index.php

Pretty sure they have a pdf up still of "The Gates of Hell" that has tons of stuff on the Lords of the Nine.

hamishspence
2010-09-29, 07:02 AM
I think it was broken up into 9 separate PDFs:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169554&page=4

PrGo
2010-09-29, 07:10 AM
Eh, I have no respect for demons. The whole "embodiment of CE" translates to "embodiment of being a psychotic moron who can't stick to a grocery list, let alone a plan".

I am so sigging that.

Also, Mephistopheles rocks. You've really got to have a pair of cohones to go to the baddest dude in your vicinity and tell him that one day you'll kill him and sit on his chair.

Yeah.

Telonius
2010-09-29, 07:40 AM
I am so sigging that.

Also, Mephistopheles rocks. You've really got to have a pair of cohones to go to the baddest dude in your vicinity and tell him that one day you'll kill him and sit on his chair.

Yeah.

My personal suspicion is that Asmo wants it like that: all the better to pick off up-and-coming threats.

Eldan
2010-09-29, 07:49 AM
I am so sigging that.

Also, Mephistopheles rocks. You've really got to have a pair of cohones to go to the baddest dude in your vicinity and tell him that one day you'll kill him and sit on his chair.

Yeah.

Of course, that biggest baddest dude then says "Good luck, Buddy", sends you home with a gift basket and imprisons and exiles his own allies instead to make it more of a challenge.

Galsiah
2010-09-29, 09:07 AM
Thanks for the replies everyone,
@BeholderSlayer-I'm planning on us taking this campaign to epic levels, so pretty epic. Originally it was just going to be another few level campaign, but thanks to significant interest from my players we're going to take it all the way. We also have access to BoVD and FC.

@Xefas- Wow, thanks for that incredibly informative, and humorous post. This definitely helps me out a lot, now I can put together the devil infighting I was looking for.

@Caliphbubba- Thanks for the link, will have a look at that when I get a chance.

Alright then, lemme give some more info on how the campaign stands now. Right now I have 4 PC's, not really optimizers, though I help them out with it. We're all into political intrigue, which is a lot of what this campaign will be. Hence the "warring factions", brought up to the cosmic scale. The idea is that each of the alignments have their own stakes in the world the PC's live in and will independantly act and work towards their goals. The PC's have sided with the devils, who are working through a group of necromancers on the Prime Material to build an outpost. The point of building an outpost is to goad everyone else into war, starting with the demons attacking the devils, bringing in the good aligned planes to fight both sides. Yugoloths will be selling their services to the evil aligned forces. All in all, it will be a total war type thing, with the twist that the PC's have an artifact that can strip the power from gods, though they don't know it yet. So I was wondering how the Lords of the Nine, and all of Baator, would react to this type of situation.

Tharck
2010-09-29, 09:17 AM
Popcorn. It's what hellfire was made for.

Caliphbubba
2010-09-29, 09:39 AM
Alright then, lemme give some more info on how the campaign stands now. Right now I have 4 PC's, not really optimizers, though I help them out with it. We're all into political intrigue, which is a lot of what this campaign will be. Hence the "warring factions", brought up to the cosmic scale. The idea is that each of the alignments have their own stakes in the world the PC's live in and will independantly act and work towards their goals. The PC's have sided with the devils, who are working through a group of necromancers on the Prime Material to build an outpost. The point of building an outpost is to goad everyone else into war, starting with the demons attacking the devils, bringing in the good aligned planes to fight both sides. Yugoloths will be selling their services to the evil aligned forces. All in all, it will be a total war type thing, with the twist that the PC's have an artifact that can strip the power from gods, though they don't know it yet. So I was wondering how the Lords of the Nine, and all of Baator, would react to this type of situation.

So this is a battle royal fight for all of the Prime Material? or just one world? it's a pretty significant difference I think, because I'm not sure all of the Lords of the Nine would be all that interested in the invasion and subjegation of merely one world.

For instance one of the Exiled Archdukes, sometimes called the "Tenth Lord of the Nine", Gargauth is trying basically this on Toril to try and drag it into the Hell Pit to become a true Lord of Hell. (At least I think this is the case).

Lord_Gareth
2010-09-29, 09:58 AM
Keeping in mind as well that Asmodeus is the only guy with his head screwed on right where "right" and "wrong" are concerned. This includes the Upper Planes. Read this "We tarnish ourselves so that you might remain pure" speech sometime; Asmodeus concerns himself with the job of actually preserving existence and doing the job right so that the morons in Celestia can prance around with bloodless hands.

Renegade Paladin
2010-09-29, 10:14 AM
Keeping in mind as well that Asmodeus is the only guy with his head screwed on right where "right" and "wrong" are concerned. This includes the Upper Planes. Read this "We tarnish ourselves so that you might remain pure" speech sometime; Asmodeus concerns himself with the job of actually preserving existence and doing the job right so that the morons in Celestia can prance around with bloodless hands.
Either that, or that's just what he wants everyone to think. :smalltongue: What speech is that, incidentally?

Lord_Gareth
2010-09-29, 10:16 AM
It's from one of the fiendish codexes; someone quoted it here a long time ago, but I can't remember it verbatim.

Essentially, though, when the multiverse is being threatened and the Forces of Good (patent pending) are crying and weeping about what to do to stop it that doesn't involve committing an act of small (or great) evil, Asmodeus arranges for the multiverse to be saved and claims all the blame for it. He doesn't mind doing this. He does it because, hell, someone has to. Why not let the innocent have their delusions? He'll always be around to get things done.

Paladineyddi
2010-09-29, 10:17 AM
Eh, I have no respect for demons. The whole "embodiment of CE" translates to "embodiment of being a psychotic moron who can't stick to a grocery list, let alone a plan".

sigged

^^

Caliphbubba
2010-09-29, 10:25 AM
It's from one of the fiendish codexes; someone quoted it here a long time ago, but I can't remember it verbatim.

Essentially, though, when the multiverse is being threatened and the Forces of Good (patent pending) are crying and weeping about what to do to stop it that doesn't involve committing an act of small (or great) evil, Asmodeus arranges for the multiverse to be saved and claims all the blame for it. He doesn't mind doing this. He does it because, hell, someone has to. Why not let the innocent have their delusions? He'll always be around to get things done.

I think this is part of the Pact Primeval: From the Wiki article on Asmodeus

According to the Pact Primeval legend, Asmodeus was once the greatest of the angels who were servants of the primal deities of law, created to combat demons in the age before ages. As the battle went on, Asmodeus and his company grew ever more poisoned by their combat against the infinite hordes of the Abyss. The deities grew restless at seeing him and his tainted companions, but could not find clauses in their laws that would allow them to cast him out. Further, they were distressed that mortals were choosing to disobey law, choosing the so-called liberty dangled to them by demons, rather than adhering to the dictates of the gods of law. Asmodeus, seeing the predicament, proposed that the gods establish punishment and retribution as a way to giving consequence to mortals who chose not to follow law. Asmodeus's masters agreed, and assigned him and his brood to administer the punishment. So as to spare them the sight of mortal souls being eternally tortured and made to suffer, Asmodeus chose the (apparently empty) plane of Baator as the site for his new Hells, and demanded that he and his dark company be allowed to harvest energy from the souls they punished for their sins, or they would have to be made gods themselves to have the strength to manage the task. Thus the "Pact Primeval" was signed, and the baatezu—devils—were created.

Lord_Gareth
2010-09-29, 10:25 AM
Is that quote getting sigged for snark factor or because it's so very true of how WotC wrote Chaotic Evil? :smallconfused:

hamishspence
2010-09-29, 10:33 AM
I think this is part of the Pact Primeval

Yup- the gods put Asmodeus on trial the first time, he explains how he and the other angels have followed their commands, and "therefore you may not cast us out".

Lord_Gareth
2010-09-29, 03:18 PM
So they gave him a job being the only intelligent being in the multiverse?

JonestheSpy
2010-09-29, 03:52 PM
So they gave him a job being the only intelligent being in the multiverse?

See, this is why I think the idea of taking the Codex for truth is so, shall we say, unappealing. It means you're running a cosmos (or playing in one) wherein the forces of Good are ultimately weak, stupid, and hypocritical. Which, y'know, is exactly what the denizens of the Hells would like people to believe. It appeals to a kind of base cynicism and admiration of power regardless how that power is used, but doesn't suit my game.

Eldan
2010-09-29, 04:02 PM
See the story as propaganda as the Big A would write it: he's looking damn good and the heavens weak and stupid.

SoC175
2010-09-29, 04:29 PM
At the time BoVD was written, Demogorgon was CR 30 and Asmodeus CR 32.

When the demon lords were revised in the Demonomicon of Iggwilv articles, Demogorgon became CR 33. Note that the revision of the demonlord stats was made based on their aspects in FC1 (yes, the sentence proclaiming the following stats to be aspects failed to appear in FC1, one of the designers offered that it might have been cut during final editing but wasn't sure were it went). So the BoVD stats have no bearing on their 3.5e stats. You need to look at Asmo's aspect in FC2 and extrapolate from there.

Xefas
2010-09-29, 04:51 PM
Actual alignment as according to Xefas:
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/RealAlignment.jpg

The chart is my own handiwork. Nice, eh? Can you tell what my favorite alignment to play is? It's actually not Lawful Evil. I play Lawful Neutral because I prefer my Awesome to be unfettered by intelligence.

(If I still played D&D, that is :smalltongue:)

Eldan
2010-09-29, 04:55 PM
Huh. I would have switched Ignorant and Awesome, actually. But then, I've always preferred chaos.

SoC175
2010-09-29, 05:19 PM
See, this is why I think the idea of taking the Codex for truth is so, shall we say, unappealing. It means you're running a cosmos (or playing in one) wherein the forces of Good are ultimately weak, stupid, and hypocritical. Actually only the forces of law. Neither the forces of CG nor the forces of NG participated in this nonesense the forces of LG came up with (and in which the forces of LN also had a hand)

Morph Bark
2010-09-29, 05:33 PM
Actual alignment as according to Xefas:
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/RealAlignment.jpg

While I don't quite agree with them all, I like this chart.


I am so sigging that.

Also, Mephistopheles rocks. You've really got to have a pair of cohones to go to the baddest dude in your vicinity and tell him that one day you'll kill him and sit on his chair.

Yeah.

You've got to have an even bigger pair of cojones if you'll sit on his daughter instead.

Y'know, as a chair of course. :smallwink:

Gensh
2010-09-29, 06:07 PM
Actual alignment as according to Xefas:
Chart

The chart is my own handiwork. Nice, eh? Can you tell what my favorite alignment to play is? It's actually not Lawful Evil. I play Lawful Neutral because I prefer my Awesome to be unfettered by intelligence.

(If I still played D&D, that is :smalltongue:)

Meh, I don't know if Lawful really deserves to be called Awesome? I mean, I consider myself LN as well, but how frequently do you see non-LE Lawful guys being awesome. I mean, there's Captain America for LG, but otherwise...

Zaydos
2010-09-29, 06:27 PM
The forces of LG have been hypocrites since the 2e Blood War books where one of the modules involved the possibility of revealing that your patron was an archon who was selling/smuggling weapons to the Baatezu and ended with him being stripped of his rank by his commanders who thought up the idea and ordered him to do it.

I was preteen and I knew that was some bs; their treatment of Asmodeus in FCII is better than that and it's still unworthy of the Good or Lawful alignments.

Also I wouldn't say Asmodeus is the most powerful being in the multiverse; the gods are more powerful, but more vulnerable; and the General of Gehenna might be stronger (never statted out, thought to be the leader of the yugoloths who in 2e are pulling the strings behind the Blood War and responsible for the creature of both demons and devils [this would go against FCII's pact primeval story which is listed as a myth and probably not true while this is listed as the secret histories of the yugoloths and possibly true); and the Lady of Pain is most likely stronger although limited to her own realm.

Asmodeus survives by being indispensable to the LE gods; and even the LG ones will keep him alive to keep the Blood War going.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-09-29, 06:38 PM
Well, so far as I can tell, relationship wise, it goes a bit like this (this is from memory, so there may be some inaccuracies):

Bel
Friendly terms with everyone. Basically, he's an real time strategy gamer turned Pit Fiend and he'd like nothing better to do with his afterlife than wage endless war with the Abyss. He takes care of the other Lords obligation to the Blood War, and in exchange, none of the other Lords messes with him. They all want him to stay in office so they can get done what they want to get done.

Dispater
Old war buddies with Asmodeus and Mephistopheles. They fought the ancient demons together when the multiverse was young. Dispater seems loyal to Asmodeus and doesn't much care about anyone else. None of the other Lords sink much effort into deposing him because he's the master of defense. He has no offense to speak of, and is thus not much of a threat. Conversely, it would take 100x more effort to take him down, and then you're left open as easy pickings for the other Lords.

Mammon
Everyone hates him. Everyone. He's sleaziness incarnate. He respects nothing, has no ethics, no honor, no dignity. Just about any other Lord would jump at the chance to murder his ugly face. Heck, just about any other sapient being in the multiverse would jump at the chance to murder his ugly face.

Fierna
The big conflict with her is from Belial, her dad. He used to rule the layer, but let his daughter be in charge as a scapegoat. He would rule through her, letting her be his puppet, and if someone gets assassinated, it'd probably be her and not him. However, she grew a backbone eventually and doesn't like the condescending way dear old dad treats her. To that end, she made an *ahem* alliance with Glasya. She hopes that, together, the two of them can get rid of Belial and be bestest best friends forever. Asmodeus doesn't really approve of Glasya spending so much time with Fierna. He isn't pissed yet, but it might be only a matter of time. The first time Glasya comes home with a tattoo and a nose-ring, heads will roll for certain.

Levistus
Well, he stabbed Asmodeus' wife to death. Yeeeeah. Asmodeus and Glasya both hate him, and for that reason, he's a pretty undesirable ally for anyone. No one knows if when they help Levistus out, Asmodeus'll just turn them into a newt, but they don't want to risk it and find out. Similarly, Levistus hates Asmodeus and wants him dead in a big way. He has the hots for Glasya, but, once again, he killed her mom, so that seems like a case of barking up the wrong bush.

Glasya
Asmodeus' little girl. She's buddies with Fierna, hates Levistus, and is really the worst possible target for attack. Asmodeus would take a direct attack on his person much less personally than attacking his sweet innocent daughter. Kill her, and watch as 10,000 full-hitdie Pit Fiends spontaneously teleport adjacent to you. Right before the nuke hits. And then your soul implodes, for good measure.

Baalzebul
Here is where the big, open conflicts get going. Ol' Baalzebul wants the throne and he's in a better position than most to get it. He's actually a fallen angel, much like Mephistopheles, and Dispater, so that might give him a little social pull with them. On the downside, he's also a nasty slug monster that no amount of Axe deodorant and Irish Spring is going to clean up. Still, he's the 3rd baddest dude in Hell, and so makes a good potential ally.

Mephistopheles
He's so damn cool that cultists actually confuse him and Asmodeus all the time. He invented hellfire. All that "fire" that mortals keep attributing to Hell? That's him. He's a suave, smart, magnificent bastard, and a good candidate for the next Ruler of Hell. Even Asmodeus likes his style. He openly wars with Baalzebul and Asmodeus, regularly trash talking and showing absolutely no shame.

Asmodeus
Well, everyone wants his spot in the end. He's possibly the single strongest entity in the Planes, double that within the bounds of Baator. You ally with him, and you win. You fight him, you lose. Levistus still tries out of hate, Mephisto and Baalzy still try out of misguided ambition. Dispater, Bel, and Glasya are all (more or less) loyal to him. Fierna and Mammon probably send the occasional stripper coated in poison, or fruitcake filled with holy symbols coated in poison, or obligatory legion of cornugons (coated in poison, probably), but they don't try for reals. They know they're much better off trying to take out some of the weaker lords to grow their power.

...I SMELL SITCOM!!! :smallbiggrin:

Galsiah
2010-09-29, 07:26 PM
@Caliphbubba- the battle is for this one plain on the Prime Material, but the idea is that it will serve as the "powder keg" of the multiverse, much as the Balkans did with WWI.

@Lord_Gareth- I'm actually addressing that in this campaign. The LG deities are propagating "order" and "good" for the sole purpose that if they didn't, they would no longer be worshiped and as such no longer be gods. They are even going to go so far as to promote the paladin ruler of the country the PC's are in to "godhood"(quasi-deity) to show how much they care about mortals. I'm still not sure how any of the chaotic alignments fall into this, but hey, gotta start somewhere right?

SurlySeraph
2010-09-29, 07:45 PM
You've got to have an even bigger pair of cojones if you'll sit on his daughter instead.

Y'know, as a chair of course. :smallwink:

Fiendish Codex II notes that Glasya will tend to hit on highly charismatic PCs, and that going along with it may increase their life expectancy.

Of course, you have to weigh off "The hot brat devil-chick isn't going to kill me for the time being" against "Her father can incinerate me with his eyes and may feel like reminding her that he's in charge here" and "Every other being in Hell now sees me as a useful bargaining chip for manipulating her with" and "Wait, she spreads a flesh-eating disease by hugging people, carries a scourge everywhere, has a Wisdom-draining touch and a poisonous bite, and oh Pelor I did not think through the logistics of this."

Eldan
2010-09-29, 08:07 PM
@Caliphbubba- the battle is for this one plain on the Prime Material, but the idea is that it will serve as the "powder keg" of the multiverse, much as the Balkans did with WWI.

@Lord_Gareth- I'm actually addressing that in this campaign. The LG deities are propagating "order" and "good" for the sole purpose that if they didn't, they would no longer be worshiped and as such no longer be gods. They are even going to go so far as to promote the paladin ruler of the country the PC's are in to "godhood"(quasi-deity) to show how much they care about mortals. I'm still not sure how any of the chaotic alignments fall into this, but hey, gotta start somewhere right?

As I see it:
Chaos over Law would primarily try to tempt mortals with freedom and choice over laws and orders.
Now, how they go about it would be entirely different for Eladrin and Tanar'ri, of course.
The Eladrin would be a kind of well-intentioned anarchist. The decision for good must come from the individual's choice, not from society's orders. Help the mortals see that the good of every individual will eventually lead to the good of all, and that they will not need laws and orders as long as they have a conscience to help them see what is good. A society does not need rulers, it needs responsible individuals. You make your own destiny, but leave others to theirs.
The Tanar'ri, obviously, have a different philosophy: I am at the top, everyone is below. Read some Hobbes, and take the worst, most cynical and nihilistic interpretation possible. All humans are born with the same basic needs. Resources are limited. Ergo, humans fight for those resources, and there will never be enough for all. First and foremost, have enough for yourself. A group is a means to an end, because if three want the same thing, the two banding together against the third will get it. A group only holds together as long as there is an outgroup, from which they can take what they need. There is never enough for everyone, but there might be enough for us. For now. Stab them in the back as soon as they don't serve your goals anymore.

Galsiah
2010-09-29, 08:12 PM
@Eldan- Ok, I think the Eladrin will be the actual "good", though they'll be dismantling any government they come across for better or for worse, while the Tanar'ri will just be out to get everything they can. Obviously this will put them at odds with each other and everyone else, but that's how I think it should be

Eldan
2010-09-29, 08:17 PM
An important issue, though you may obviously choose to ignore it:

Back in Planescape the Eladrin were the only Outsiders who could access every plane without being summoned. However, they had to remain veiled at all times, magically disguised as mortals. They went around the land, when on the prime, acting as advisors to kings and generals, as sages and storytellers, trying to influence history to the better.
They could unveil themselves and use their full power, but then, they were banished back to Arborea for years.

Yes, chaotic good Gandalfs.

Urpriest
2010-09-29, 08:24 PM
For the Tanaari, remember that their politics can be almost as complicated as those of the Lord of the Nine. Demogorgon, Graz'zt, and Orcus all have not just competing interests, but competing philosophies of governance and evil. Throw in some of the more interesting if weaker players (Obox-Ob, Malcanthet, Pazuzu, for example) and you get some fun situations.

Galsiah
2010-09-29, 08:25 PM
@Eldan- actually, that plays in very well, thanks for bringing it to my attention :smallsmile: I can have an adviser to the king be an eladrin, and have his attempts at helping make things right actually backfire horribly, throwing out some more nice plot hooks

Eldan
2010-09-29, 08:26 PM
Pale Night too, can't forget her.
And some of the more interesting Abyssal gods. Kali, for example.

Galsiah
2010-09-29, 08:34 PM
Oh man, I'm going to have so much fun DMing this with so much to work off of for the intrigue. My players are going to love it too! I plan on the different gods being involved once they learn about the artifact the PC's have 'round level 15-ish or so. For now all the PC's know is that it needs to eat souls or the bearer gets some nasty side effects. Our campaign settings tend to use the Forgotten Realms gods for the most part, since we're most familiar with them, so the back story of the artifact is that it was created by Ao as a method of allowing mortals to keep the gods in check (kinda inspired by the Time of Troubles), with an important oversight not even Ao could foresee - it can be used on HIM as well. The gist of the artifact is that it's a glove that can be used to strip the benefits of having a divine rank from gods, while giving the divine "energy" to the wielder. (think the bracelet in the original .hack games) Mephistopheles already knows of the artifact, but not the extent of its power, hence he's building an outpost on this particular plane to find it and use it to usurp Asmodeus. Naturally, Asmodeus already knows about this and is using Mephistopheles to get the glove AND spark the war he wants.

Urpriest
2010-09-29, 08:35 PM
Pale Night too, can't forget her.
And some of the more interesting Abyssal gods. Kali, for example.

Kali's got D&D god stats? Where? Sounds awesome.

Pale Night is indeed ubercool, though she's not terribly...expansionist. Neither is Pazuzu though, so since I listed him...Also, bringing her in brings in the new type of demons (loumaras IIRC), so I guess she's got some expansionist interests via them.

Eldan
2010-09-29, 08:46 PM
She had in AD&D. Try to find a book called "On Hallowed Ground". It stats and gives fluff to gods from Greyhawk and Faerun, but also Sumerian, Babylonian, Celtic, Egyptian, Finnish, Greek, Norse, Chinese, Indian and Japanese gods. Also, various monstrous gods an gods from less well-known D&D worlds. It's a pretty good book if you suddenly need the D&D flavour for Tyche, Mitra, Tefnut or Dagdha.
Kali also had a section in the abyssal books: her's is layer 643 (I think, at least over 600), the Caverns of Skulls.
To quote:
The goddess Kali is quite a contradiction. She's a creator and a destroyer, a builder and a demolisher. She gives birth to children and eats them, takes a husband and destroys him. She's a loving and hating mother, a brutal and gentle power who reveals the beauty of life and death even as she takes them apart.
Her realm consists of endless dark tunnels, where all her petitioners kill each other, come back to life and kill each other again.

Edit: just looked at it again... they actually made Zeus True Neutral, Poseidon Chaotic Neutral, Ares Chaotic Evil and Hades Lawful Neutral. Closer than they got in Deities&Demigods, I'd say.

Zaydos
2010-09-29, 09:21 PM
I will have to check that book out; when I want D&D fluff for real-world deities I always go to the 2e Legends and Lore books.

Surprisingly accurate to the myths too; some of the times I've gotten mad at them for getting it wrong (I spent a good many years as a myth freak and tend to know more about them than anyone in my immediate vicinity) I later discovered that they were in fact right, according to an obscure myth that not many people had heard about. I miss 2e fluff.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-09-29, 11:00 PM
Don't forget the Abyss also has Dagon! Everyone's favorite Obyrith lord! The fact that the Abyss is one step closer to Lovecraft fills me with non-euclidean, rugose, gibbering feelings.

Lord_Gareth
2010-09-29, 11:02 PM
See, this is why I think the idea of taking the Codex for truth is so, shall we say, unappealing. It means you're running a cosmos (or playing in one) wherein the forces of Good are exactly as WotC wrote them.

Edited for correctness. If you run Forces of Good capable of wrestling with moral choices more complex than "is mind-raping something until it changes its behavior okay?" and "should I kill goblin babies", great. I'm glad you've re-made them into something worthy of the title. But the published Upper Planes are idiotic and impotent at best in the canon material.

Zaydos
2010-09-29, 11:16 PM
Edited for correctness. If you run Forces of Good capable of wrestling with moral choices more complex than "is mind-raping something until it changes its behavior okay?" and "should I kill goblin babies", great. I'm glad you've re-made them into something worthy of the title. But the published Upper Planes are idiotic and impotent at best in the canon material.

I wouldn't say and impotent. I'd say they range from impotent, to idiotic, to idiotic hypocrites, to manipulative -I don't think I can say the next word here- that are also hypocrites. But they tend to be powerful when their idiots, and impotent when they're not.

SoC175
2010-09-30, 02:13 AM
She had in AD&D. Try to find a book called "On Hallowed Ground". It stats and gives fluff to gods Actually it doesn't give stats to the deities, only fluff and general information like alignment and homeplanes and such. In 2e even demigods were already so powerfull to be beyond stats.

Morph Bark
2010-09-30, 04:10 AM
"Wait, she spreads a flesh-eating disease by hugging people, carries a scourge everywhere, has a Wisdom-draining touch and a poisonous bite, and oh Pelor I did not think through the logistics of this."

It's things like this that make me wonder what her mother was like and how Asmodeus could even get his mojo on.

Of course, if Asmodeus could do that, then Mephistopheles prolly can, too. :smalltongue:

Eldan
2010-09-30, 06:08 AM
Actually it doesn't give stats to the deities, only fluff and general information like alignment and homeplanes and such. In 2e even demigods were already so powerfull to be beyond stats.

By stats, I meant stuff like "domains" and "deity status". That's what you normally need to use them as gods, not combat stats.

JonestheSpy
2010-09-30, 03:07 PM
Edited for correctness. If you run Forces of Good capable of wrestling with moral choices more complex than "is mind-raping something until it changes its behavior okay?" and "should I kill goblin babies", great. I'm glad you've re-made them into something worthy of the title. But the published Upper Planes are idiotic and impotent at best in the canon material.

Um, what? While I haven't red every sourcebook, the Book o' Exalted Deeds seemed to lay out a pretty decent definition of "good" in DnD terms, and it is neither impotent nor hypocritical. If there's been much in the way of updating since then, I haven't seen it.

If you're primarily going off what the Codexes say, then of course it's going to make the dwellers of the Upper Planes look bad.

Lord_Gareth
2010-09-30, 03:09 PM
You are aware that the BoED (I've owned it for years in hard copy) considers whether or not to kill orc babies to be a tough moral quandry? That is published the mind-raping sanctify the wicked spell (in addition to several spells that were either inexplicably good when they should have been nuetral or just straight-up cruel and unusual), the hyper-hypocritical Ravage and Affliction rules and a general continuation of an extensive basis on IRL religion?

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 03:18 PM
Actually it doesn't give stats to the deities, only fluff and general information like alignment and homeplanes and such. In 2e even demigods were already so powerfull to be beyond stats.

Legends and Lore does give stats for their Avatars, though (all 20th level characters, sometimes multi/dual classed and all having special abilities unavailable to players). But yeah they were as a rule so powerful they couldn't be opposed by mortals period.

hamishspence
2010-09-30, 03:25 PM
You are aware that the BoED (I've owned it for years in hard copy) considers whether or not to kill orc babies to be a tough moral quandry?

Considering there was a general theme in early editions of "it's not a quandary- killing orc babies is not evil" BoED at least provided a counter example- killing noncombatants, even of races like orcs, in war, is evil.


That is published the mind-raping sanctify the wicked spell (in addition to several spells that were either inexplicably good when they should have been nuetral or just straight-up cruel and unusual), the hyper-hypocritical Ravage and Affliction rules and a general continuation of an extensive basis on IRL religion?

StW has very little in common with Mindrape- it grants you no access to the target's memories, is Necromancy rather than Enchantment, etc.

Afflictions are a bit dubious- but are probably an attempt at justifying the fact that in D&D deities like Apollo, who use plagues on those that offend them, are "Good". Ravages might be compared to spells like Holy Word- only distilled into liquid form, and not as indiscriminate as those spells.

BoED has its flaws, but it at least raises the notion that Good people are supposed to try and redeem those who are evil- and not attack even the evil-aligned without just cause.

In older editions, the forces of Good apparently commit genocide against Evil beings, killing anything with an Evil alignment. In the 1st edition book The Wilderness Survival Guide this period was called The Alignment Wars- and many of the Underdark races fled into the Underdark to escape this.

SurlySeraph
2010-09-30, 03:26 PM
It's things like this that make me wonder what her mother was like and how Asmodeus could even get his mojo on.

Of course, if Asmodeus could do that, then Mephistopheles prolly can, too. :smalltongue:

Devils are immune to poison and immunity to disease or very high Fort saves aren't that hard to get. The Wis-draining touch is harder but not impossible to get immune to, and since it's [Su] it probably requires a standard action to use rather than being continuously active. Or you could just move into an antimagic field to avoid said problems.

Glasya's mother was named Bensozia, supposedly powerful but never really did anything, very loyal and subordinate to Big A, and that's all I've seen on her.


Afflictions are a bit dubious- but are probably an attempt at justifying the fact that in D&D deities like Apollo, who use plagues on those that offend them, are "Good". Ravages might be compared to spells like Holy Word- only distilled into liquid form, and not as indiscriminate as those spells.

Yes, but they only needed to come up with them because the BoED said that using poison and disease was evil in the first place. Which, given that Couatls are always LG and poisonous, is stupid.

Lord_Gareth
2010-09-30, 03:28 PM
Hamish, I'd rather not start another sanctify debate, but as far as I'm concerned, it tramples all over the "concern for the dignity of sentient beings" portion of being Good. Furthermore, if you want to build an objective morality system, gods like Apollo (who was a jerk anyway) don't get out free because they're gods. Either something is evil or it isn't. You don't get to vaccillate. That's called - wait for it - hypocrisy.

hamishspence
2010-09-30, 03:32 PM
I agree on the "using poison is evil" bit being silly- primarily because the rationale was that they cause unnecessary suffering- and nonevil D&D spells are often worse in that respect.

It might be that BoED was trying to rule that the things banned by international treaty (poison and disease as military weapons, summary execution of prisoners, torture, slavery) are evil- in order to ensure that Exalted Good D&D characters couldn't be the sort of people that would have been charged with war crimes if they lived in the modern day.

JonestheSpy
2010-09-30, 03:45 PM
You are aware that the BoED (I've owned it for years in hard copy) considers whether or not to kill orc babies to be a tough moral quandry?

Well, if you live in a world of actual, spiritual EVIL that can be predetermined in a creature due to its inherent nature, that is actually a valid question, isn't it? It's one of those situations where fantasy and real-life morality are completely at odds.

Now, my personal opinion is that it's a question that shouldn't even come up - it's a fantasy game, not science fiction. Orcs did not disappear from Middle Earth because there was a genocidal war against them (and yes, Tolkien says they went extinct in the Fourth Age) but because Sauron and the evil will that drove them on was defeated. I really don't see the point in having adventurers wander into an orc nursery, unless you deliberately want to throw a nasty moral puzzle at them.



That is published the mind-raping sanctify the wicked spell (in addition to several spells that were either inexplicably good when they should have been nuetral or just straight-up cruel and unusual)

Don't know about the other spells you're thinking of, but I've debated about Sanctify the Wicked before and see nothing wrong with it. I think it comes from the very philosophically well-grounded idea that evil is not a choice, like choosing a political party, but a flaw, a weakness or sickness. The spell is basically causing someone to experience what happened in Dickens's A Christmas Carol: they are forced to confront their deeds, shown the consequences of their actions, and given another chance to redeem themselves. Or do you think Scrooge was Mindraped in the story?



the hyper-hypocritical Ravage and Affliction rules

I certainly think those rules are dumb and I don't use them, but I'm not sure what's hypocritical about them. Badly thought out, sure, but what's wrong with a weapon that only hurts evil creatures?


and a general continuation of an extensive basis on IRL religion?

No idea what you mean there, aside from maybe the unfortunate tendency to give the folks from Celestia universally Hebraic-sounding names.

Anyway, it seems to me that all the stuff you're describing reflects poor game design, not any descriptions of the Good Gods and Powers that paint them as hypocritical, impotent, etc. in the way the FC2 does.


Edit: regarding the poison/Ravage thing, a little historical background helps. In history, lots of combat wasn't fatal. People would fight until moral broke and then folks ran away, duels were often fought until first blood or until one fighter gains the advantage - e.g. disarming his opponent. Using poison meant you were out and out intending to murder someone, in a cowardly and underhanded way. In DnD most combat is to the death, so poison doesn't seem different than any other weapon. It's one of those things DM's need to figure out for their own campaigns, IMHO.

hamishspence
2010-09-30, 03:50 PM
I certainly think those rules are dumb and I don't use them, but I'm not sure what's hypocritical about them. Badly thought out, sure, but what's wrong with a weapon that only hurts evil creatures?

The argument is based on the fact that only ability damaging poisons (and not, for example, sleep poison) are considered to "cause excessive suffering" -

therefore anything that does ability damage logically must cause excessive suffering.

However this does not automatically follow. Spells that cause Str damage don't have the Evil subtype- and even the Poison spell doesn't have the Evil subtype.

JonestheSpy
2010-09-30, 03:55 PM
See my edit up above.

hamishspence
2010-09-30, 03:58 PM
That might be part of it.

When D&D characters do want to take their enemies alive- they might (if limited in magic) use non-CON damaging poisons, and the players might see them as equivalent to knockout anaesthetics.

Thus- they complain when told the BoED suggests it might be evil.

JonestheSpy
2010-09-30, 04:03 PM
When D&D characters do want to take their enemies alive- they might (if limited in magic) use non-CON damaging poisons, and the players might see them as equivalent to knockout anaesthetics.

Thus- they complain when told the BoED suggests it might be evil.

I think there's a whole lot of wiggle room there, and such players would have a valid point. Again, I think that reflects issues with the game designers wrestling with real-world vs gaming morality, not some weakness or hypocricy on the part of the Upper Planes as envisioned in DnD cosmology.

Edit: Also, fiends are powerful enough that I don't have problem with adventurers using things like Coutl venom to even the odds a bit, and as far as a storytelling thing, using poisons from Good creatures to be extra effective against embodiments of evil is pretty cool. I wouldn't ever rule that such a substance was more-than-normally effective against your average orc or bugbear, though.

hamishspence
2010-09-30, 04:08 PM
Yup. Even if one were to rule that poison itself is not inherently evil (the FAQ for the ninja mentions that "there's nothing inherently evil about using poison") one might still keep ravages in- not because they're specially Good-

but because they minimise the amount of damage you can do to your allies, if an enemy takes control of you- assuming no-one in the party is evil.

NineThePuma
2010-09-30, 04:09 PM
Just a note, but it has been established that Alignment has more to do with cultures and beliefs than with any spiritual slanting. Kobolds, for instance, are Usually Lawful Evil. Why are Kobolds Evil? Because they hold a long standing grudge against the 'common' races. The grudge is particularly fueled by people's habit of invading their homes to loot an pillage. Why are they evil? Because their patron god is a once mortal Kobold who hates the Gnomes because Garl Glittergold killed him, most of his family, his home, and collapsed a centuries old mine that he had overseen.

Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are ALL subjective. It is why I generally discard the alignment stuff.


Now, back on topic...

I personally remove the alignment system and replace it with an... Alignment system. A less crappy moral/ethnic one.

Every mortal race (or, rather, everything that isn't an outsider) is Neutral, by default. The only way to change this is to make a Pact (divine, explicitly; The Dragons are all assigned different alignment combos, but a Dragon Pact doesn't alter alignment) and you take on the alignment of your patron: Axiom, Anarch, Celestial, or Infernal. There's also the Abberent Pact, but that's less "I ally with X army" and more "I sell my soul to see the destruction of all reality."

In any case, under this scenario there's huge political mongering and the occasional show down between opposites. It's fun.

hamishspence
2010-09-30, 04:13 PM
If you go by the PHB, it varies. Both Beholders and Kobolds are Usually LE, but for kobolds, culture plays a bigger part than it does for Beholders.

The Kurtulmak story in Races of the Dragon is somewhat slanted- A Grand History of the Realms tells the same story in more detail- and in that version, Garl went in there to rescue gnome souls in gems, that the kobolds had unknowingly harvested.

"Kobolds, while Often LE, are also often unjustly persecuted"- might be true- but it doesn't follow from this that "All D&D alignment is subjective"- only different peoples interpretations of it are.

In a D&D world, normally, when a person who likes kobolds casts Detect Evil on one, and a person who hates kobolds casts Detect Evil on one- they will both get the same result. (It might not be LE- that particular kobold might be atypical).

Within any given world- alignment will be objective in this sense at least- by the rules.

NineThePuma
2010-09-30, 05:05 PM
Now, back on topic...

I personally remove the alignment system and replace it with an... Alignment system. A less crappy moral/ethnic one.

Every mortal race (or, rather, everything that isn't an outsider) is Neutral, by default. The only way to change this is to make a Pact (divine, explicitly; The Dragons are all assigned different alignment combos, but a Dragon Pact doesn't alter alignment) and you take on the alignment of your patron: Axiom, Anarch, Celestial, or Infernal. There's also the Abberent Pact, but that's less "I ally with X army" and more "I sell my soul to see the destruction of all reality."

In any case, under this scenario there's huge political mongering and the occasional show down between opposites. It's fun.Let's take the moral/ethical stuff to a different topic or PM, eh guys? Slapping it in here is pretty disrespectful to the OP and is pretty damn off topic.

JonestheSpy
2010-09-30, 05:09 PM
Let's take the moral/ethical stuff to a different topic or PM, eh guys? Slapping it in here is pretty disrespectful to the OP and is pretty damn off topic.

I think once the alignment graph showed up all bets were off...

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 05:20 PM
Okay back to the Lords of the Nine then.

I've been reading up on them for the purpose of creating dragons (someone asked me to).

Interesting things:
In 1st edition Tiamat was lord of the 1st; they retconned that.
I can find almost nothing on the former Lord of the First Zariel who Bel overthrew, except that he keeps her bound as he siphons power from her to increase his strength. While nobody dislikes Bel, they consider him an upstart and disrespect him knowing he's too distracted by the Blood War to oppose them.
Glasya used to be Mammon's consort.
Baalzebul used to rule the 6th layer as well as the 7th, via his viceroy Molloch who alone amongst the arch-fiends did not beg Asmodeus for forgiveness and was banished from Baator; he's still apparently alive somewhere in the multiverse.

Eldan
2010-09-30, 05:24 PM
Doesn't Moloch hang out with Geryon and the other ex-lords on the first?

NineThePuma
2010-09-30, 05:26 PM
Ooh. An interesting conundrum I have: the Nine are just /really/ powerful outsiders, right? So what happens when a Tiefling achieves quasidiety status? Or any Lawful Evil character with Infernal heritage?

Eldan
2010-09-30, 05:33 PM
He is a Tiefling Quasideity? I fail to see the problem, really.

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 05:33 PM
Doesn't Moloch hang out with Geryon and the other ex-lords on the first?

FCII lists him amongst them, Guide to Hell and several modules list him as banished entirely and at one point even sealed on the Prime.

In the same part in FCII that lists him as an outcast devil it also says Dagon is one in that sentence and the following sentence. Why?

Although the most recent information on Moloch would be Dragon #360 apparently, but I do not have access to that.

Geryon, though, was killed by Asmodeus in a final betrayal to the loyal arch-fiend and now is a vestige. This was done so Asmodeus could take his power to add to his own.


Ooh. An interesting conundrum I have: the Nine are just /really/ powerful outsiders, right? So what happens when a Tiefling achieves quasidiety status? Or any Lawful Evil character with Infernal heritage?

I think that's up to the DM. Quasi-deity status isn't even necessarily held by the Arch-fiends; it is listed as a possible variant if you want to up their power a bit in the BoVD so depending upon your take on the matter that Tiefling might be more powerful than Asmodeus. Also there are other powerful unique fiends than the Lords of the 9; they are the various dukes of Hell so most likely the tiefling could become one of them a step down from a lord of 9... at least until he kills one of the Lords and takes their place.

Galsiah
2010-09-30, 05:35 PM
Ooh. An interesting conundrum I have: the Nine are just /really/ powerful outsiders, right? So what happens when a Tiefling achieves quasidiety status? Or any Lawful Evil character with Infernal heritage?

Well, the nine are about equal with deities in respect to strength, Asmodeus being somewhere around divine rank 18 or so, so a quasi deity would be kinda like an insignificant spec on another insignificant speck, really

NineThePuma
2010-09-30, 05:40 PM
I treat Asmodeus as a Diety on the basis of Pathfinder and 4e. I was just thinking about theoreticals really. What does a minor (mortal) agent of hell do when they become powerful enough to duke it out with one of the Nine and survive, possibly even win? Do they become one of the Nine? Just theoretical. I haven't read the Codex for them, so... Yeah.

Edit: where are you getting DvR: 18?

Galsiah
2010-09-30, 05:43 PM
I treat Asmodeus as a Diety on the basis of Pathfinder and 4e. I was just thinking about theoreticals really. What does a minor (mortal) agent of hell do when they become powerful enough to duke it out with one of the Nine and survive, possibly even win? Do they become one of the Nine? Just theoretical. I haven't read the Codex for them, so... Yeah.

If they win, and manage to fend off any of the other Nine below whomever they just wiped out, then I guess they'd take their place. Seems to be how it works at least. I would personally have the mortal assume the rank of the defeated member of the Nine to reflect that.

edit: I saw the divine rank in the Asmodeus thread

NineThePuma
2010-09-30, 05:45 PM
Note to self: see if I can work my way up through the ranks of hell by killing all my superiors.

Cieyrin
2010-09-30, 05:48 PM
Note to self: see if I can work my way up through the ranks of hell by killing all my superiors.

That is the preferred way of advancement. :smalltongue:

Eldan
2010-09-30, 05:51 PM
Please. The Baatezu are more civilized than that.

The usual method is killing your superior, blaming someone else and then making it appear as if your own personal enemy was making it look as if someone else was blaming him for blaming the other guy.

The preferred method is having your superior resign so you can have his job. See also: Yugoloths.

blackjack217
2010-09-30, 06:02 PM
I play Asamodious as the most powerful of the nine (by a lot) and the most limited. In his current form if he was locked in a room with 3 of the nine and fought them he, or his mobile avatar, would die. If he heals all of his wounds it would take all nine of them to fight him on even terms. This way he actually is vulnerable and therefore his success is due to his sheer intelligence and status as a Magnificent er person, rather than just being an overpowered thing that wins because he was never in any danger. Makes him more compelling.

His main weakness is his fundamental misunderstanding of himself. He knows himself better than any archdevil or Lord of the 9 but there is something in him so alien that he cannot notice or recognize its existence, light. It is there in infinitesimally small amounts but there nonetheless. It is his feelings toward his dead wife (who he is serching for away to revive, justifying it to himself as a way to showcase the futility of opposing him) his daughter Galasia, and to a friend long thought dead lost saving his life from demons before the fall...

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 06:03 PM
Actually examples of advancement have mostly been rather weird:
Imprisoning your superior and slowly stripping her of her powers; results congratulations from Asmodeus.

Telling your superior to piss off Asmodeus; result Asmodeus promoting you himself... to later turn you inside out to give your power to his daughter.

Being Asmodeus's daughter.

Impressing Asmodeus with your ability to lie so that he kicked your boss out despite your boss being one of his supporters from the oldest days.

Kill Asmodeus's wife, get sealed in ice, and then have Asmodeus kill his only loyal supporter to restore you to power.

Really the means for promotion is rather crazy.

None of them ever made it look like they didn't do it.

LOTRfan
2010-09-30, 06:18 PM
That is mostly how the lesser devils do it. The rule of the non-unique devils is this: Kill your superior, but don't make it obvious you did it. If you are caught, instant death (or worse, permanent demotion to Nupperibo).

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 06:23 PM
Don't have my Blood War book with me, but some of the Pit Fiends in the Dark 8 got there by killing their superiors and were known to have done it. You just have to prove you're better for the job, too; and not make it too obvious.

Morithias
2010-09-30, 06:59 PM
I agree on the "using poison is evil" bit being silly- primarily because the rationale was that they cause unnecessary suffering- and nonevil D&D spells are often worse in that respect.

It might be that BoED was trying to rule that the things banned by international treaty (poison and disease as military weapons, summary execution of prisoners, torture, slavery) are evil- in order to ensure that Exalted Good D&D characters couldn't be the sort of people that would have been charged with war crimes if they lived in the modern day.

Only problem. Winner writes the story, and international law is very sketchy. If the axis has completed the nuke first, used it, and then somehow lost the war in the end. I'm 100% sure it would've came up in the post-war trials. But since the allies used it and won...nothing.

blackjack217
2010-09-30, 07:03 PM
To be fair, the US just thought of it as a large bomb, they had no idea about all of the nasty after effects, and they where hardly the only people to use terror bombing, just by far the most successful.

Urpriest
2010-09-30, 07:08 PM
To be fair, the US just thought of it as a large bomb, they had no idea about all of the nasty after effects, and they where hardly the only people to use terror bombing, just by far the most successful.

Spoilered for irrelevancy:

Eh, they had pretty thorough reports from scientists that, at the very least, use of the bomb would alter the face of war as they knew it and ignite an unsustainable worldwide arms race. Google the Franck Report.

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 07:08 PM
Let's steer this back to the Lords of the Nine and away from anything resembling real world politics.

Okay so you have the actual lords to work with, the Dukes such as Amon and several others (I don't think these have had stats since 1e), and disposed lords, as well as pit fiends that want to be dukes you ought to be able to make enough intrigue for several campaigns. You seem to be going with the Dicefreaks Asmodeus is the supreme god of evil if you're giving him the Divine Ranks that they gave him which limits you some (it cuts off most of the fluff about the Ancient Baatorians before the arch-fiends) but any choice there limits you in some facet. One thing you have to decide is if Mephistopholes pulls off whatever he's planning could he actually dethrone and usurp Asmodeus?

Galsiah
2010-09-30, 07:16 PM
Yeah, from what I've seen the Dicefreaks material seems to fit pretty well with what I want to do, though I will make adjustments as necessary. For the plot, yes, if he succeeds, then he can indeed overthrow Asmodeus. Of course, this is entirely up to whatever the PC's decide to do

NineThePuma
2010-09-30, 07:17 PM
There is a lot of potential for expansion within the Courts of Perdition if you go the Dicefreaks route. And I gotta agree: promotion gets kriffing odd once you get to (approximately) the Duke level.

In an aside: 4e fluff says Graz'zt is a former devil corrupted by the abyss. Then it hints that his ties to Asmodeus might not have been cut. Isn't that fun?

LOTRfan
2010-09-30, 07:28 PM
:smallsigh: I've always considered Graz'zt a demon turning diabolical, not a devil becoming demonic. Still, since it has been brought up by the poster above, any possibility that the two could have some sort of infernal agreement? Although I'm personally rooting for "NO!!!!"...

Eldan
2010-09-30, 07:58 PM
Hell no.

That, to me, sounds like:
"Whoops! We have a demon acting intelligently. But all demons are stupid brutes! Guess he was a devil, then."

SurlySeraph
2010-09-30, 08:04 PM
@^: Yeah, I'm inclined to agree.

A Grazz't-Asmodeus deal to dethrone Demogorgon (likely using the forces of Good to do the dirty work), install Grazz't in his place, end the Blood War, and conquer the planes woud be a good plot.

JonestheSpy
2010-09-30, 08:57 PM
That, to me, sounds like:
"Whoops! We have a demon acting intelligently. But all demons are stupid brutes! Guess he was a devil, then."

Except for the fact that many demons are supergeniuses, of course.

The chaotic=stupid fallacy is just, well, stupid.

(Just to be clear - not dissing Eldan, just the POV he was also dissing).

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 09:03 PM
Except for the fact that many demons are supergeniuses, of course.

The chaotic=stupid fallacy is just, well, stupid.

(Just to be clear - not dissing Eldan, just the POV he was also dissing).

The problem is that WotC writes them that way. Even in the Blood Wars box set, awesome stuff btw, the only reason the devils had a chance was that the demons didn't use good tactics (out of impatience and hot-headedness more than stupidity). That was when they just said some people think demons are infinite, but if they were the Baatezu wouldn't be fighting the Blood War and would have come to a peaceful resolution.

With the greater tendency to say "demons are infinite" they have to write demons stupider and stupider.

The_Snark
2010-09-30, 09:47 PM
Poor organization in the Blood War doesn't mean all demons are stupid. The demon commander on a battlefield might be a genius, but that doesn't help very much if his entire battalion is composed of bloodthirsty berserkers and wretched cowards who have to be flogged into battle. There are plenty of demons that are smart enough to remember orders in the heat of combat and powerful enough to make a difference, but most of them are also smart enough to stay away from the Blood War, and powerful enough that they're tricky to conscript. So instead of wasting their time trying to instill discipline in a bunch of walking incarnations of discord and entropy, the commanders prefer to spend their time press-ganging larger armies, which has the side benefit of allowing them to stay at the back.

And as far as I can tell, none of the important demon princes care about winning the Blood War; they're all focused on trying to dethrone one another. Devils are a lot more assiduous about it. Sure, they have no realistic chance of conquering the Abyss, and the war is a drain on everybody's resources, but it's traditional, and Hell is all about slavish adherence to pointless, destructive traditions. (Among other things.)

An endless machine grinding countless souls to dust for no purpose whatsoever is a pretty good metaphor for Lawful Evil on a cosmic scale, actually.

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 10:11 PM
Yeah, back in the Blood War box set their stance was none of the arch-fiends on either side cared for the Blood War one bit and it was solely the province of normal fiends. The Guide to Hell book seems to have changed that, and then they kept adding to their involvement in 3.X.

The fact that the smartest 2 species of demons, Mariliths and Balors, push for the Blood War mercilessly is a little iffy; at least Pit Fiends have a reason too, it's a large part of what got Bel his position.

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 12:20 AM
Hell no.

That, to me, sounds like:
"Whoops! We have a demon acting intelligently. But all demons are stupid brutes! Guess he was a devil, then."

.. Except he was a devil at some point. According to the fluff I'm reading, he was tasked with conquering the abyss, got stalled by Orcus and Demogorgon, then went native.

The Demons aren't stupid, but they're bad at teamwork and obeying orders. They all form their own individual plans to attack, rather than working as a group. Think Persia bs Sparta.

Callos_DeTerran
2010-10-01, 12:44 AM
Poor organization in the Blood War doesn't mean all demons are stupid. The demon commander on a battlefield might be a genius, but that doesn't help very much if his entire battalion is composed of bloodthirsty berserkers and wretched cowards who have to be flogged into battle. There are plenty of demons that are smart enough to remember orders in the heat of combat and powerful enough to make a difference, but most of them are also smart enough to stay away from the Blood War, and powerful enough that they're tricky to conscript. So instead of wasting their time trying to instill discipline in a bunch of walking incarnations of discord and entropy, the commanders prefer to spend their time press-ganging larger armies, which has the side benefit of allowing them to stay at the back.

And as far as I can tell, none of the important demon princes care about winning the Blood War; they're all focused on trying to dethrone one another. Devils are a lot more assiduous about it. Sure, they have no realistic chance of conquering the Abyss, and the war is a drain on everybody's resources, but it's traditional, and Hell is all about slavish adherence to pointless, destructive traditions. (Among other things.)

An endless machine grinding countless souls to dust for no purpose whatsoever is a pretty good metaphor for Lawful Evil on a cosmic scale, actually.

^^^ This. Also, the only demons who are REALLY interested in the Blood War are the ones trying to use it to advance their own position. Which...aren't any of the Demon Princes because they already have their positions. A glance at Savage Tide (the adventure path) shows that Demogorgon has (had, depending on your PCs) numerous generals (and one Admiral even) who were using the Blood War to try and advance themselves. The biggest hurdles in their path though are...

A) Most of the people in power don't give two copper coins about the Blood War.

B) Using the Blood War for advancement only works if you win great victories..which leads to...

C) The devils have better strategies and discipline. It's hard to organize a sweeping victory when 8 out of 10 times your opposing commander is cannier then you and his troops won't flee mid-battle (depending on the troops of course) or try to eat you if you screw up too badly.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 12:48 AM
C) The devils have better strategies and discipline. It's hard to organize a sweeping victory when 8 out of 10 times your opposing commander is cannier then you and his troops won't flee mid-battle (depending on the troops of course) or try to eat you if you screw up too badly.

The fact that WotC writes it so that Baatezu are always cannier than Tanar'ri is saying that CE is dumber than LE.

Agrippa
2010-10-01, 12:59 AM
Devils are more cooperative with each other and likelier to put asside thier own personal needs, wants and opinions for the greater cause. Demons simply don't like doing what you tell them to do unless already want to do it. Getting demons to work together is like hearding cats. You have a bunch of individualistic bastards who won't do what they're told unless they want to do what you want them to, or they're getting paid. All you have to do to get devils to serve you in an army is to say that you have a chance for them to take part in quest greater than anyone of them alone and display a good deal of ruthlessness. They like being part of things bigger than they are, even if you treat them badly and don't pay them well.

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 01:05 AM
I don't think "cannier" is the right word. Assume that they're equal in int, wis, cha, everything there. The devil will win because his army is an army instead of a giant mob. Demons might have more people, but devils have a tendency to focus fire /intentionally/ and ergo, three pit fiends against a balor is gonna be pretty one sided. As long as the big demons are slowed down the Devils can crush the demons one at a time.

Sorry if double. Forum glitched.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-01, 01:07 AM
So your argument is that, despite mechanical similarity, the demons still act like morons?

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 01:18 AM
No, they're individualistic and untrusting. Devils, despite evilness, still have a tendency toward tradition and community, even if selfish aggrandizement is there. It's the equivalent of having an undisciplined mob of glory hounds who all fight for themselves versus a team.

Team work is important. Just because four guys have eight people after them doesn't mean The four are going to lose of the eight attack randomly at whoever they want.

More over, there's instinctive reasons. For example, you have two guys. One smacks the demon, using combat expertise or something to fight defensively. The demon focuses on him. The Devil's partner smacks the demon with a full attack. I can't crunch numbers, but it's tactically sound.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-01, 01:21 AM
That's the thing - intelligence (both the score and the IRL attribute) is the quality which overrides instinct. In fact, intelligent beings are capable of some truly incredible stupidity (Steve Irwin, BASE jumping) in total defiance of their better instincts to the contrary. Devils ignore their instincts and act intelligently, with planning and forethought. An incapability of doing so - like what you're describing with demons - indicates a lack of intelligence.

Hence why I said I have no respect for them - they are compelled by their nature to be Chaotic Stupid beings that suffer from Chronic Backstabbing Disorder.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 01:27 AM
Your average osyluth wants to fight the Blood War; if he does well he'll be promoted.

Your average babau wants to get the hell out of there, and the only reason he doesn't is because if he does a Balor or Molydeus will kill him.

But this doesn't change the fact that according to the books it's because the Balors and Mariliths are worse tacticians and do not use their SLAs effectively.

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 01:40 AM
I... Don't see Int as "avoid instinct" 0.o;;

Int, to me, is an ability to think logically/intuitively. Logic is subjective. Alignments are mindsets. Ergo, equally intelligent creatures with differing alignments will think differently. Demons will, generally think about what's best for Número Uno. So will devils. Demons will go by gut instinct and their personal reactions. Devils will go "by the book" and by what's best for the group.

Theoretically, in a mixed army with Demons commanding Devils mixed, you would have some highly creative and adaptive commanders leading awesomely kickass troops. Theoretically, that's what the Side of Good is.

And we're now off the track of discussing the Nine Lords (and other Big Guys in Planar Politics)

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-01, 01:41 AM
Someone (who isn't me) needs to start a general cosmology thread so we can stop with the derailment. We've killed, what, four topics with this stuff already?

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 01:47 AM
This one got derailed twice, at least.

But, assume, Chaos isn't stupider, Chaos is more focused on freethinking and creativity, while Law is more focused on discipline and conformity. I agree that WotC failed with demons, but it's fairly easy to adapt from their failure. Demons are creative; every single one thinks up crazy (if somewhat sound) schemes to gain power. Everysingle Demon, being Evil, is more concerned about their own plans than helping others complete theirs. Ergo, the end result can be people disrupting their own side /on accident/. But yeah, new thread.

Xefas
2010-10-01, 01:50 AM
Logic is subjective.

I honestly don't care much about the current topic, but I just had to correct this statement because it hurts me to see it.

"Logic" is specifically the principle of correct, unbiased inference. Logic is, by definition, objective. If it is not objective, it is not logic. If it is truly logic, then it is objective.

"1+2=3" is logic, and is always correct. 1+2 can never not be 3. That's why it's logic.

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 01:54 AM
But one man's logic on more complicated issues can be another man's madness. This is a bad place to talk about it, but... it comes down to more ephemeral values, like "how much does a life cost?" ergo, evil (selfish) people who place very little value on the lives of others, will kill someone in order to get something because, logically, it's the easiest course of action. For a good person, that path would almost assuredly never occur to them.

Does that explanation make sense? Not to insult you or argue, but I honestly see it differently.

JonestheSpy
2010-10-01, 01:59 AM
Sorry, one last comment about the Blood War.

While it's true that the devils have an advantage being better organized, they also have a handicap in being unable to do the unexpected, take advantage of opportunities that appear, and think independently.

Different kinds of intelligence, doncha know.

Xefas
2010-10-01, 02:11 AM
Does that explanation make sense? Not to insult you or argue, but I honestly see it differently.

I think you might mean "reasoning". If I rewrite your paragraph like so-


But one man's reasoning on more complicated issues can be another man's madness. This is a bad place to talk about it, but... it comes down to more ephemeral values, like "how much does a life cost?" ergo, evil (selfish) people who place very little value on the lives of others, will kill someone in order to get something because, by their own reasoning, it's the easiest course of action. For a good person, that path would almost assuredly never occur to them.

-it makes sense. Issues like your example are only ephemeral because the human mind can't compute the genuinely logical answer. We can do 1+2 fine, because it's simple. In the case of your example, you would somehow have to compute and compare the ramifications of killing/not killing the person as they apply to the rest of your existence, using information that hasn't been created yet (insofar as we perceive 'time'). Dr. Manhattan might be able to do it, but humans, no.

There's really only one logical solution to every situation. Just because we cannot perceive the answer, doesn't mean there isn't one. And the truth is that most people throw around the word "logical" when they mean "reasonable" as in "reasonable given the values and variables I've arbitrarily attributed to the situation as a result of my experiences".

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 02:45 AM
On Grazzt being of devilish origin- the original background for him has him as the son of Pale Night. But doesn't say what his father was.

In 4E Demonomicon, after Pazuzu tempted Asmodeus, he left his job as guardian of the prison of Tharizdun, descended into the Abyss, all the way to the crystalline Heart of the Abyss, where he carved off a shard of it, and forged it into the Rod, which he used to slay his divine master, when he returned at the head of an army.

The deities imprison him in the realm of his slain master- but later in the war against the primordials, grant him access to his deity's power in return for his help. The agreement was intended to last only till the battles were won- but thanks to clauses he inserted, he retained the power indefinitely.

(In 4E The Plane Above, Asmodeus is cast from his deity's palace onto the fields of Baator, for excessive brutality- maybe he was tasked with guarding Tharizdun as penance for his offenses?)

Maybe, during Asmodeus's first descent into the Abyss, he dallied with Pale Night, and Grazzt resulted- and that's why Grazzt was sent into the Abyss to retrieve a second shard- because Asmodeus thought his demonic blood would make him resistant to it?

Eldan
2010-10-01, 07:07 AM
On the issue of logic:
Humans act reasonable all the time. They just start at different initial conditions, with different values and view points, and arrive at different conclusions. But based on those axioms, the conclusions are entirely logical.

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 08:58 AM
Graz'zt's Archdevil heritage is stated in the Planar handook for 4e.

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 09:01 AM
4E Manual of the Planes, yes.

in 4E he's an ex-archdevil- but might he have had demonic heritage even when an archdevil? Would be an interesting interpretation.

Eldan
2010-10-01, 09:03 AM
Yeah... but for all practical purposes, 4E is a different multiverses which shares a lot of similarities with earlier D&D multiverses, but has just as many differences. Look at the changes in Succubi, demons, yugoloths and so on. Look how they reused the name Eladrin. I wouldn't bring up 4E canon in a discussion that is labeled 3.5, other than to make a comparison.

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 09:12 AM
True- 4E seems to be getting more like 3E over time in its fluff though.

A lot of succubi came with Grazzt- so the Abyss still has them. Malcanthet is still around in the Abyss. And incubi can fill the same sort of role.

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 09:32 AM
It's a 3.5 discussion, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of Graz'zt as an Archdevil; it just means he's an exiled one. Actually, that makes a ton of sense: He was a commander early in the blood war who was extraordinarily successful... Before he defected to the side of the Abyss.

He was too strong to be killed away from Baator by anyone, yadayada, he becomes a demon prince. This happening right near the start. It'd be interesting, at least.

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 09:57 AM
How about the "Grazzt is the son of Asmodeus & Pale Night" idea?

Might be a little tricky to integrate with 3.5 though.

Morithias
2010-10-01, 10:03 AM
The way I see it, demons are very intelligent, but they nature is what kills them. Let's put it this way, I see the demons as a race of a bunch of starscreams from transformers. How many times in the transformers shows would have megatron won if starscream hadn't stabbed him in the back at the worst time?

The reason the demons are unorganized are because that's what they are, they all want to be at the top, and therefore no one is able to keep in charge for long enough to mount a legit military assault.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 10:13 AM
The way I see it, demons are very intelligent, but they nature is what kills them. Let's put it this way, I see the demons as a race of a bunch of starscreams from transformers. How many times in the transformers shows would have megatron won if starscream hadn't stabbed him in the back at the worst time?

The reason the demons are unorganized are because that's what they are, they all want to be at the top, and therefore no one is able to keep in charge for long enough to mount a legit military assault.

STARSCEAM IS AN IDIOT just watch the three-part pilot of the original show. The Decepticons won Episode 1, and then Starscream started shooting at the Autobot ship for fun causing a tremor and shaking one of the Autobots into the repair beam. And that was one of his relatively intelligent mistakes (there's a reason in the comics Optimus said the best weapon they had was Starscream being their enemy). That's like saying a race of creatures is intelligent but their problem is they're like Gilligan.

At least choose a non-bumbling example of a someone with chronic back-stabbing disorder. Even Shockwave from the Transformers would have been a better example. He betrays Megatron several times, once or twice stopping Megatron by winning by doing so. The fact that when he does it often results in it getting worse for the heroes is detrimental to the point, though.

Morithias
2010-10-01, 10:15 AM
STARSCEAM IS AN IDIOT just watch the three-part pilot of the original show. The Decepticons won Episode 1, and then Starscream started shooting at the Autobot ship for fun causing a tremor and shaking one of the Autobots into the repair beam. And that was one of his relatively intelligent mistakes (there's a reason in the comics Optimus said the best weapon they had was Starscream being their enemy). That's like saying a race of creatures is intelligent but their problem is they're like Gilligan.

At least choose a non-bumbling example of a someone with chronic back-stabbing disorder. Even Shockwave from the Transformers would have been a better example. He betrays Megatron several times, once or twice stopping Megatron by winning by doing so. The fact that when he does it often results in it getting worse for the heroes is detrimental to the point, though.

I used him more cause he's the trope namer for the starscream rather than the best example, but my point still stands.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-01, 10:31 AM
I honestly don't care much about the current topic, but I just had to correct this statement because it hurts me to see it.

"Logic" is specifically the principle of correct, unbiased inference. Logic is, by definition, objective. If it is not objective, it is not logic. If it is truly logic, then it is objective.

"1+2=3" is logic, and is always correct. 1+2 can never not be 3. That's why it's logic.

What if we are using vectors instead of scalar math? With Vectors 1+2 does not equal 3.

Eldan
2010-10-01, 10:32 AM
Still...
Intelligent creatures would realize that the easiest way to get to the top is banding together against those who don't. As I said earlier: If you have three equal people competing, two can unite against the third and defeat him.
The demons should realize that they would be stronger together. But they are forever stuck in the wrong corner of the prisoner's dilemma.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 10:36 AM
Demons should realize the best time to backstab someone. The fluff is that demons are like Starscream and backstab in the stupidest ways imaginable. Except for the Demon Lords who are actually smart and have some half-way decent fluff (at least in the Dragon Magazines). When they aren't being sealed in Castle Greyhawk.

If balors and mariliths were smart then they'd know when not to backstab and when to backstab. Like the Baatezu who betray each other oh so often, when it means they win and the person they're betraying loses (see Bel, see the Hag Countess, see pit fiends).

Morithias
2010-10-01, 11:23 AM
Humans do that all the time. Germany backstabed Russia in WW2. Italy switched sides. Gang wars go crazy in city streets, even though if they were united as one mega-gang they could probably overwhelm the police.

Humans aren't stupid, but that doesn't mean they don't fight against each other. Heck we even have a term for such a thing "civil war".

SurlySeraph
2010-10-01, 01:07 PM
Look at it on a higher level. The Blood War is stupid. It's a massive waste of time and effort. The truly powerful beings in Hell and the Abyss don't care about it. The forces of Good are the main people who want it to keep going. Sure, the devils bring more intelligent strategies to the Blood War, but you could say that demons are smarter in that most of them realize they have little to gain from the Blood War and don't waste much thought and effort on it. Every minute a devil spends building fortifications on Avernus is a minute a demon could spend corrupting mortals for more long-term benefit.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 01:10 PM
Now that I will agree on, with the addition that the loths do more to keep it going than the celestials.

Course the loths get most of their souls by selling their services to demons and devils as mercenaries, keep two potentially dangerous enemies occupied, and maintain the balance between forces in the multiverse (which they do seem concerned with despite their NE alignment), and their aesthetics that Evil untainted by Law or Chaos is always superior by doing so.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-01, 06:38 PM
This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9463651#post9463651) was opened to end the derailment. Good luck, OP! :smallcool: