[3.5 Optimization Challenge]To Slay Oneself

[Lord_Gareth]

Quick, everyone - grab your copy of The Book of Exalted Deeds, 'cause I'm about to give you a reason to open it - the Aleax monster. What is it? Why, it's you with some enhancements! The best bit is that there's no way to expect it coming, since the only being you can ask (your god) is the one sending it to kick the crap out of you. Certainly an epic fight to inflict upon any character.

So, my question is - how would you build a 20th level character in order to defeat its own Aleax?

[Roc Ness]

Ranger, with Favoured Enemy: Constructs? And Favoured Power Attack, and the Solitary Hunting variant?

The Aleax is useless against you (well, not quite), but you were trained to kill it from the very start...

[sentaku]

Might I suggest barbarian? The lack of a con score means that the Aleax's rage would not increase it's constitution score and would only last 3 rounds. Just make sure that you won't die in those three rounds and you should be set.

[dextercorvia]

Bard -- Full Ranks in Perform: Standup Comedy

[T.G. Oskar]

Get a Mace of Smiting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#maceofSmiting), add Impact, call it a day? 1 in 10 hits will one-hit the Aleax with impunity.

On the other hand, creating a character or focusing the character exclusively to kill an Aleax may not be entirely optimized. The idea is that only you know the tricks to slay yourself, and what you get is a construct that does exactly the same that you do; it's the player's task to figure out how to defeat its own build in a battle. If you make a Batman Wizard, and the DM makes an Aleax Batman Wizard, then you know that your benefit is that the others will do the work for you; you'll be screwed, however, if the entire party is made of constructs since essentially you'll be facing a party that's almost equally as buffed as you are. Except for spells that affect constructs, of course.

However, an Artificer may be the best idea. Specifically: one that's built to defeat constructs, and to buff non-construct allies. Since the Aleax is a construct, that will be tougher since it'll be capable of using its infusions on itself, but you'll probably have one thing that the Aleax won't, and one benefit against it; the probable benefit is essentially that you might have action points and the Aleax won't, hence it'll be unable to accelerate infusions, and the definite benefit is that anti-construct spells are standard action infusions, so you can use them with impunity. And, once beaten, you'll still contribute to the party as if nothing had happened, the deity's wrath placated.

[Prime32]

Learn the fusion power and fuse with another member of your party. The fused being is capable of fighting the aleax.

[Telonius]

Leadership feat, give your cohort a Mirror of Opposition. Use Mirror on Aleax. (I think you could make the case that the duplicate created counts as the Aleax's target).

[grarrrg]

Learn the fusion power and fuse with another member of your party. The fused being is capable of fighting the aleax.

KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

[T.G. Oskar]

KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Wait, isn't it supposed to be that the two make a funny pose, touch their index fingers at precisely the same time, and both mutter "FUUUUUUU-SION, HAAAAA!!"?

Besides, isn't that what Black Mage does? Talk to him; he faced an Aleax and actually absorbed him...

[Myth]

Make an Ice assassin of it. Get a Similacrum as well. You win.

[Lord_Gareth]

Keep in mind that the Aleax can shapechange at will, retaining all of their extraordinary and spell-like abilities in addition to any that they gain.

[Lhurgyof]

Get a Mace of Smiting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#maceofSmiting), add Impact, call it a day? 1 in 10 hits will one-hit the Aleax with impunity.

On the other hand, creating a character or focusing the character exclusively to kill an Aleax may not be entirely optimized. The idea is that only you know the tricks to slay yourself, and what you get is a construct that does exactly the same that you do; it's the player's task to figure out how to defeat its own build in a battle. If you make a Batman Wizard, and the DM makes an Aleax Batman Wizard, then you know that your benefit is that the others will do the work for you; you'll be screwed, however, if the entire party is made of constructs since essentially you'll be facing a party that's almost equally as buffed as you are. Except for spells that affect constructs, of course.

However, an Artificer may be the best idea. Specifically: one that's built to defeat constructs, and to buff non-construct allies. Since the Aleax is a construct, that will be tougher since it'll be capable of using its infusions on itself, but you'll probably have one thing that the Aleax won't, and one benefit against it; the probable benefit is essentially that you might have action points and the Aleax won't, hence it'll be unable to accelerate infusions, and the definite benefit is that anti-construct spells are standard action infusions, so you can use them with impunity. And, once beaten, you'll still contribute to the party as if nothing had happened, the deity's wrath placated.

Action points? o.o

[Lord_Gareth]

Make an Ice assassin of it. Get a Similacrum as well. You win.

Beings that aren't you (specifically) cannot harm an Aleax.

[Tyndmyr]

Cannot harm is not the same as cannot help. For instance, they could happily buff you, and remove negative conditions, as well as alter the battlefield favorably.

Now, the Aleax does not gain the benefits of your gear, correct? That alone should make the battlefield fairly slanted at high levels, when you will most likely face one.

[Lord_Gareth]

Cannot harm is not the same as cannot help. For instance, they could happily buff you, and remove negative conditions, as well as alter the battlefield favorably.

Now, the Aleax does not gain the benefits of your gear, correct? That alone should make the battlefield fairly slanted at high levels, when you will most likely face one.

Oh yes it does - the Aleax spawns with all of your class features, equipment, racial traits, exploits, whatever, plus the benefits its gets from simply being an Aleax.

[Prime32]

Besides, isn't that what Black Mage does? Talk to him; he faced an Aleax and actually absorbed him...I didn't say fuse with the aleax (you can't anyway). :smallconfused:

Your teammates can't harm the aleax with their abilities, but if you fuse with them (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm) you can harm the aleax with their abilities (as well as becoming significantly harder to kill).

[Telonius]

Okay, getting back to a bit more seriousness ... one minor thing about an Aleax is that its HD change to d10s. While this normally makes an Aleax more powerful than the original character, if you're a Barbarian, a Knight, or a Warblade, this actually works to your advantage.

Aleaxes also have no Con score. Something like Fist of the Forest or Deepwarden would therefore have an AC advantage over it.

Really, the best way of defeating one of these things is to have a lot of friends that can cast beneficial spells on you. I do agree that a character focused on killing Constructs is going to be the hardest thing for an Aleax to beat; the Aleax will then also be focused on killing Constructs, but its target is (likely) a humanoid.

Vow of Nonviolence/Peace will probably make your Aleax go crosseyed - it's created to attack a humanoid, but has vowed not to attack humanoids. (Though what an Exalted character could do to make their god mad enough to send an Aleax at him without also having lost the Exalted status is anybody's guess).

[Tyndmyr]

Hmm, but it doesn't scale to keep up with you, correct?

In seriousness, my way of dealing with this would be simply outsmarting the DM. I know my character better than he does, and I always hold a few non-obvious trump cards back(as I feel smart wizards should). Then I'd rejoice over doubling my wealth.

But in strict optimization terms, defeating your doppleganger relies on getting some measurable advantage. Allies indirectly aiding you is one such way, targetting any differences is another(some way to make the special Aleax traits a liability). The other option is to delay the confrontation until you can gain a key ability or item it does not yet have.

[Lord_Gareth]

It'd probably help if folks read the monster in question :p One doesn't double one's wealth after killing an Aleax. You get a "get out of divine wrath free" card, a +2 bonus to wisdom/AC, and a +1 bonus to init. Permanently. That's all.

[Telonius]

Hmm, but it doesn't scale to keep up with you, correct?

Aleax has all the "statistics, abilities, qualities, racial traits, and possessions" of the original. The specific exception is that (as a Construct) it lacks a Con score. Hitdice therefore don't add the Con score (which is why Aleaxes get a bonus to HP based on size). If you have Deepwarden, the Aleax would still have the "Con to AC" ability - except that in its case the Con is null. The ability is present but useless.

[FMArthur]

That still sounds like a great gain for defying your apparently impotent god.

[Lord_Gareth]

True that.

Thought - can't artificers who ARE constructs enhance themselves? Wouldn't that make fighting an Aleax-Artificer kinda...bad for your health?

[molten_dragon]

Let's see. The easiest way to do this would be to make a level 20 gnome barbarian.

Assuming a 36 constitution when raging (17 base, 5 from levels, 6 from an item, 8 from rage), you would have, on average, 390 hit points.

The aleax would have 120.

It would have some benefits that you don't, including 2 points higher AC, fast healing 5, and shapechange. However, the shapechange forms are limited (and you could probably pick a deity to try to limit them to something not useful). Overall, having only 30% of your hit points, and similar levels of offensive and defensive potential, would put the aleax at a crippling disadvantage.

[Lord_Gareth]

The shapechange forms are not TECHNICALLY limited; it's just stated that they TYPICALLY have one or two alternate forms that they favor. That won't fly with most DMs that are serious about the thing trying to kill you.

[Cyclocone]

Aleax has all the "statistics, abilities, qualities, racial traits, and possessions" of the original.

Depending on what you feel like counting crafted contingencies as, you could just have a ton of "If I'm an Aleax, cast Maw of Chaos on me" -contingencies. Also, contingent Magic Mouth to go "No, bad deity, BAD!"

Aslo, it Fails at Incarnum as well because of the "Con Ø" thing.

[Tyndmyr]

It'd probably help if folks read the monster in question :p One doesn't double one's wealth after killing an Aleax. You get a "get out of divine wrath free" card, a +2 bonus to wisdom/AC, and a +1 bonus to init. Permanently. That's all.

Don't have books available at the moment.

Permanent bonuses to wisdom and init? Seriously? I need to annoy my diety more frequently. I LOVE permanent bonuses that aren't gear dependant.

[Lord_Gareth]

Untyped bonuses too :D

[Telonius]

Ooooooh, Hellfire Warlock would also be a good pick. Vitriolic Blast would bypass SR and probably negate the fast healing. Nice...

[Emperor Tippy]

Untyped bonuses too :D
Can you stack them by killing multiple Aleax's?

Hmm, if you can it's time to really piss of deities for super high stats.

[gallagher]

Don't have books available at the moment.

Permanent bonuses to wisdom and init? Seriously? I need to annoy my diety more frequently. I LOVE permanent bonuses that aren't gear dependant.

sometimes my character worships the DM. literally, like i write in the deity section "The DM" and just leave it at that. suffice to say my characters are often silly enough to annoy the deity quite often.

he has yet to send an aleax at my bard mime yet... or my water orc sorc... or my chaos gnome luck and trickery based cleric...

he did send one at my halfling barbarian though

[Telonius]

Can you stack them by killing multiple Aleax's?

Hmm, if you can it's time to really piss of deities for super high stats.

A deity can only send one Aleax after you. If, however, you make multiple deities angry...

[T.G. Oskar]

sometimes my character worships the DM. literally, like i write in the deity section "The DM" and just leave it at that. suffice to say my characters are often silly enough to annoy the deity quite often.

he has yet to send an aleax at my bard mime yet... or my water orc sorc... or my chaos gnome luck and trickery based cleric...

he did send one at my halfling barbarian though

Just for kicks: have you done an LG Dwarven Cleric called Forgath (http://www.goblinscomic.com/07152005/)? Or by any chance your DM is named Herbert? Or maybe Tarol Hunt?

[molten_dragon]

The shapechange forms are not TECHNICALLY limited; it's just stated that they TYPICALLY have one or two alternate forms that they favor. That won't fly with most DMs that are serious about the thing trying to kill you.

I think the barbarian thing would still work. Any benefit that shapechange gave could easily be negated by gear, either by using dispel/AMF/disjunction or by simply using shapechange yourself to turn into whatever broken monster the aleax was abusing.

[FMArthur]

Depending on what you feel like counting crafted contingencies as, you could just have a ton of "If I'm an Aleax, cast Maw of Chaos on me" -contingencies. Also, contingent Magic Mouth to go "No, bad deity, BAD!"

Aslo, it Fails at Incarnum as well because of the "Con Ø" thing.

This is probably the best. Craft some Contingencies that would kill you instantly if you were an Aleax immediately before you carve some unflattering images of Pelor on the face of the moon. Bang, you just permanently gained a couple bonuses without even seeing anything happen.

[BenTheJester]

As pointed, Hellfire Warlock would be good, since you NEED to take con damage to be able to use Hellfire.



How would a Ur-Priest Aleax work? Steal spells from the god who created him, and piss the god so he sends an Aleax after the Aleax, and so on?

[Telonius]

As pointed, Hellfire Warlock would be good, since you NEED to take con damage to be able to use Hellfire.

Note that it could still Eldritch Blast you, it's just going to do less damage than your attacks against it.

[Tyndmyr]

As pointed, Hellfire Warlock would be good, since you NEED to take con damage to be able to use Hellfire.



How would a Ur-Priest Aleax work? Steal spells from the god who created him, and piss the god so he sends an Aleax after the Aleax, and so on?

This recursive loop of diety annoyance amuses me. Good job!

[Lord_Gareth]

A deity can only send one Aleax after you. If, however, you make multiple deities angry...

Per offense, friend.

However, nothing is stopping the deity from sending the Aleax with backup. Or on the deity's mount. Or, frankly, with a few extra equipment goodies. They are, after all, a deity.

[Gametime]

It does say that if you defeat an Aleax, the deity won't send any more after you regardless of your conduct.

[Tyndmyr]

Per offense, friend.

However, nothing is stopping the deity from sending the Aleax with backup. Or on the deity's mount. Or, frankly, with a few extra equipment goodies. They are, after all, a deity.

...MORE xp and loot? I'd be grateful to this diety, if I wasn't so busy horribly offending them.

I believe my next character will be one who misguidedly believes his diety is the diety of blasphemy, and is worshiped by the same. Obviously, those followers of his who spread falsehoods about him are his worshippers as well.

[Lord_Gareth]

It does say that if you defeat an Aleax, the deity won't send any more after you regardless of your conduct.

If I read it right, it said it won't spawn another one for that offense, regardless of whether or not you improve. But if Pelor sends one after you for failing to donate to charity and then you rape a fluffy bunny rabbit, chances are you've got another one coming.

[FMArthur]

...MORE xp and loot? I'd be grateful to this diety, if I wasn't so busy horribly offending them.

I believe my next character will be one who misguidedly believes his diety is the diety of blasphemy, and is worshiped by the same. Obviously, those followers of his who spread falsehoods about him are his worshippers as well.

I'm thinking you'll need to make this character start with under 8 Intelligence for this not to be too metagame-ey.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm thinking you'll need to make this character start with under 8 Intelligence for this not to be too metagame-ey.

Oh, you can have intelligence and still be horribly, horribly wrong about something. Especially if you really get invested in believing it. In real life, smart people end up on all sides of arguments all the time.

Giving him ranks in knowledge: religion is probably out, though.

Though, on a side note, if you worshiped a god of lies, wouldn't telling lies about him be terribly appropriate? Might work even better than say, blasphemy.

[Coidzor]

I think you can't worship a god and be an ur-priest, unless the god is dead or not yet complete.

And you can only get an Aleax from your patron deity, right?

...So what about those who have a patron pantheon? One possible Aleax from each deity in the pantheon, depending upon who you offend(which is really easy if it's one that runs the alignment/portfolio gamut)? Or have to offend the pantheon as a whole to get one?

[Tyndmyr]

Back at home, got mah book out. Yeah, only one Aleax at a time per diety. And a flat ban on sending one against a character who has killed that dieties aleax in the past. Therefore, there's a hard cap of <# of gods in your setting>. This could still be highly useful.

It is technically claimed to be sent out against "those who stray from the dictates of their alignments, who fail to make the proper sacrifices, or who otherwise enrage the diety." Therefore, it need not be YOUR diety, though I would assume that would be the most likely case. You merely need to enrage a lot of gods. Preferably not all at once.

The list of benefits earlier was also uncomplete. The complete list for killing the Aleax successfully is as follows:
+2 untyped wisdom bonus.
+1 insight bonus to init.
+2 perfection bonus to AC.
SR = the Aleax's HD(your HD at time of creation)
free pass on whatever behavior caused that offense with that diety.

CR is yours +3, so solid xp.

It also is specified to have all the possessions of the intended target. Not the benefits provided by them. So, you can indeed loot a copy of your gear. This could be substantially profitable.

[Coidzor]

So it sounds like being a known Ur-Priest would be grounds for it then, after all.

Though, getting a free pass for killing the Aleax seems... like they wouldn't want to if they thought you could beat it and would prefer methods of elimination that wouldn't tie their hands from trying again. :smallconfused:

[Gametime]

The Aleax vanishes, along with all of it's equipment, upon being defeated. You could make the argument that any equipment you steal from it before defeating it isn't it's equipment any more, but I don't see that argument flying in a real game.

[FMArthur]

I also don't see why farming them could be possible in a real game. You'll get one at most and even then it might be hard to convince your DM to try to kill you in that particular way. There would be way too many plotlines (particularly low- to mid-level ones) that simply couldn't happen if this was something deities did.

[Icewraith]

This is a viable strategy at epic levels though.

Make an epic spell that targets deities and compels them to send an aleax after you after buffing yourself with anti-aleax contingencies. Obviousl there will be a will save or somesuch involved, and it's epic magic so it's silly, but still technically doable.

[Zore]

So the best way to win is to be as Con-focused as possible? Be some kind of Incarnum user or... What else runs off con?

[WinWin]

Frenzied Berserker would have a decent chance. It's deathless frenzy would last longer then the Aleax's...Of course, just because it dies first, does not mean it doesn't kill you.

[Draz74]

So the best way to win is to be as Con-focused as possible? Be some kind of Incarnum user or... What else runs off con?

Dragonfire Adept.

[Worira]

So have the Aleax bring some spare True Resurrection components.

[Coidzor]

Constitution
{table=head]Name | Type | Book |
Page # |
Edition | Bonus | Notes
Mineral Warrior (+1LA) | Template | Underdark |
96 |
3.5 | To-Hit | 1/day
Bloodhound | Class | Complete Adventurer |
28 |
3.5 | Will Saves | vs Mark
Deepwarden 2 | PrC | Races of Stone |
105 |
3.5 | AC | Replaces Dex
Dwarf Sorcerer | Sub Level | Races of Stone |
147 |
3.5 | Bonus Spells | -
Forsaker | PrC | Masters of the Wild |
57 |
3.0 | AC | Natural Armor
Fist of the Forest | PrC | Complete Champion |
80 |
3.5 | AC | while unarmored
Kensai | PrC | Complete Warrior |
49 |
3.5 | Reflex Saves | Concentration check
Perfected One | Epic PrC | Dragon #297 |
56 |
3.5 | Will Saves | while unarmored
Warforged Paladin | Sub Level | Races of Eberron |
132 |
3.5 | Will Saves | -
Improved Bind Vestige | Feat | Tome of Magic |
73 |
3.5 | AC | 1/2, natural armor, Dahlver-Nar Vestige
Steadfast Determination | Feat | PHBII |
83 |
3.5 | Will Saves | -
Hammer of Earth | Equipment | Magic of Rokugen |
66 |
3.0 | Damage | -
Action Before Thought | Maneuver | Tome of Battle |
62 |
3.5 | Reflex Saves | Concentration check, Immediate Action
Insightful Strike | Maneuver | Tome of Battle |
62 |
3.5 | Damage | Concentration check, Standard Action
Greater Insightful Strike | Maneuver | Tome of Battle |
62 |
3.5 | Damage | 2 * Concentration check, Standard Action
Mind Over Body | Maneuver | Tome of Battle |
63 |
3.5 | Fort Saves | Concentration check, Immediate Action
Moment of Perfect Mind | Maneuver | Tome of Battle |
63 |
3.5 | Will Saves | Concentration check, Immediate Action
[/table]

This might be of partial use.

So, Deepwarden will not only not give them the ability to use CON to AC, it will actually deprive them of their DEX to AC as well. Or, maybe the DM will give them DEX to AC. In which case dump DEX and, well, they suffer a penalty to AC rather than just not receiving a bonus.

[Khatoblepas]

Easy!
1) Be a Fiend of Possession.
2) Annoy Deity.
3) Deity sends Alaex after you. It has your stats. It is a Construct ergo it does not qualify for the Fiend of Possession class anymore. It cannot turn Ethereal.
4) Possess the Alaex.
5) Walk around in your own body, but with Fast Healing 5 and Singular Enemy. You are invunerable.
6) Nurse your aching head after the DM throws the BoED at you.

[Coidzor]

Easy!
1) Be a Fiend of Possession.
2) Annoy Deity.
3) Deity sends Alaex after you. It has your stats. It is a Construct ergo it does not qualify for the Fiend of Possession class anymore. It cannot turn Ethereal.
4) Possess the Alaex.
5) Walk around in your own body, but with Fast Healing 5 and Singular Enemy. You are invunerable.
6) Nurse your aching head after the DM throws the BoED at you.

Heh... I am thou, thou art I indeed.