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Cogidubnus
2010-09-29, 06:25 AM
Now, the obvious one is wish loops, but forgetting those, how might you use three wishes from a candle of invocation gating in an Efreet? This is particularly for NPCs crafting them and using them to summon Efreet servants to perform a variety of tasks, but any use is interesting.

T.G. Oskar
2010-09-29, 06:59 AM
Now, the obvious one is wish loops, but forgetting those, how might you use three wishes from a candle of invocation gating in an Efreet? This is particularly for NPCs crafting them and using them to summon Efreet servants to perform a variety of tasks, but any use is interesting.

The gateway to Pun-Pun?

...I'd say that's the most obvious use of Candles of Invocation.

Then again; wouldn't you wish for three more Candles of Invocation?

Aharon
2010-09-29, 07:13 AM
Very powerful magical items?
Say, a Belt of Magnificence +x, where x is an arbitrarily big number?
=> if it is an actual game, not intended to become all too silly, that number could be something like +30 or +100 - making for an extremely powerful opponent or protagonist.

In TO, you can use higher numbers, like, say, 3↑↑5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%27s_up-arrow_notation) or A(4,4) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_function).

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-29, 07:34 AM
Then again; wouldn't you wish for three more Candles of Invocation?

-snip- the obvious one is wish loops, but forgetting those -snip
I think that counts as a wish loop.

Douglas
2010-09-29, 08:01 AM
In TO, you can use higher numbers, like, say, 3↑↑5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%27s_up-arrow_notation) or A(4,4) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_function).
That's chump change. Try this (http://xkcd.com/207/). Or, better, the biggest result from this thread (http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7469).

Aharon
2010-09-29, 11:27 AM
Huh.
Those are some big numbers, there :smallconfused:

That would actually make for a fun-diversion, I think: How do you take down a commoner 1 with a tooth of dalver nar that acts as a Belt of Magnificence +xkcd, without resorting to infinite loops yourself? :smalltongue:

Edit: His feats are Endurance and Steadfast Determination.

Ormagoden
2010-09-29, 11:38 AM
You could use it to read...

Notreallyhere77
2010-09-29, 12:58 PM
You could use it to read...

I like this the best.
Of course, you're supposed to be reading your holy text to its light, and preparing spells as though you were two levels higher, but if you aren't a divine caster, it's just like any other candle (a lot more expensive, though).

Slightly off-topic, but the problem with wish loops is that the creature granting you a wish does not have to do it. Now, if you have a ring of Djiini command, or an efreet in a bottle, yes, those genies must grant wishes (if they don't kill you), but called creatures are not under their caller's control (or they wouldn't need to be bargained with), so they don't have to let you wish for more wishes unless you're paying them really well or doing big services to earn those wishes. At some point, you'll run out of money (or whatever you're trading), and they won't barter any more wish loops. Or, if you're not trading stuff, but services, they can promise to give you the wish after each service, in which case, it's not broken, it's an adventure hook with a nice reward.

Aharon
2010-09-29, 01:07 PM
@Cogidubnus
Before I make further proposals: Could you perhaps narrow down what kind of answers you search? I provided one that has a TO and a PO use, but if I knew what you want, I could perhaps think up something better.

@Notreally
You are mistaken. The candle allows you to cast gate, which has the following clause:


A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help.

What you mean are creatures called via Planar Binding, and they can be forced, too - with proper preparation, a wizard will be able to always win the negotiations.

Doug Lampert
2010-09-29, 01:07 PM
Slightly off-topic, but the problem with wish loops is that the creature granting you a wish does not have to do it. Now, if you have a ring of Djiini command, or an efreet in a bottle, yes, those genies must grant wishes (if they don't kill you), but called creatures are not under their caller's control (or they wouldn't need to be bargained with),

That's odd. Because the TEXT of the Gate spell SPECIFICALLY talks about controlling the called creatures:



If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

Wish is an immediate task. Standard Effreets are FAR less than twice the HD of the caster level of a gate. Poof. You can clearly order it.

Cogidubnus
2010-09-29, 01:11 PM
I'm looking for practical uses. Not nasty uses of Wish, just clever ones that aren't game-breaking, just functional.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-29, 01:31 PM
That would probably include the given examples of automatic wishes. For instance, stacking +1 bonuses to a stat. Useful, but not broken.

Anything involving a wish loop would generally be considered broken.

Lamech
2010-09-29, 02:18 PM
I have a question about the whole gate abuse thing: Why would any creature with access to wish let itself be gated? Or see into the future and slaughter anyone who would try to gate them? Or if it was gated make it so the gate caster doesn't die as soon as they appear next to the caster? Or so they don't contingency away as soon as they are gated in?

Cogidubnus
2010-09-29, 02:32 PM
I have a question about the whole gate abuse thing: Why would any creature with access to wish let itself be gated? Or see into the future and slaughter anyone who would try to gate them? Or if it was gated make it so the gate caster doesn't die as soon as they appear next to the caster? Or so they don't contingency away as soon as they are gated in?

Efreet and other varieties of genie can only cast wish for other creatures, not themselves.

Lamech
2010-09-29, 02:39 PM
Efreet and other varieties of genie can only cast wish for other creatures, not themselves.
Yeah, they can only cast wish for other non-genie creatures. Which means that the Efreet can really only get access to its wishes if it has a slave or ally near by. And since they are slave owners... not a problem.

SurlySeraph
2010-09-29, 02:44 PM
Early entry into PrCs, getting that one spell you need for this situation but can't cast, plus the +2 morale bonus to everything for whoever's protecting you while you're preparing spells. Plus, of course, Gate that anyone can use for cheaper than a scroll of Gate.

Notreallyhere77
2010-09-29, 03:21 PM
That's odd. Because the TEXT of the Gate spell SPECIFICALLY talks about controlling the called creatures...
...Wish is an immediate task. Standard Effreets are FAR less than twice the HD of the caster level of a gate. Poof. You can clearly order it.


@Cogidubnus
@Notreally
You are mistaken. The candle allows you to cast gate, which has the following clause...
...What you mean are creatures called via Planar Binding, and they can be forced, too - with proper preparation, a wizard will be able to always win the negotiations.

Okay, my bad. I thought sticking around long enough for a wish loop was longer than immediate service. Was it only planar allies that charge by the round (or hour or longer, at different rates)?

I have a better contribution to the OP, though. Use the candle while preparing spells, and add metamagic effects to your normal spell array!

@SurlySeraph
I think you need to be able to cast the necessary spells without the candle to qualify for PrCs.

SurlySeraph
2010-09-29, 04:14 PM
If you can cast spells of a given level, you can cast spells of that level, and you qualify for PrCs that require spells of that level.

Now, you might stop qualifying for the PrC when the candle wears off, and a smart DM will use that against you. But being able to cast Xth level spells lets you get into a PrC even if you really shouldn't be able to. See Doc Roc's early entry shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137447) for more on the subject.

MachineWraith
2010-09-29, 04:35 PM
Okay, my bad. I thought sticking around long enough for a wish loop was longer than immediate service. Was it only planar allies that charge by the round (or hour or longer, at different rates)?

No, it's simply that you wish for 2 things that you want, and then another candle of invocation, letting you gate in another Efreeti.

Notreallyhere77
2010-09-29, 05:16 PM
I'm beginning to think that the listed price for the CoI was missing one or two zeroes. Stupid WotC typos.:smallannoyed:

Cogidubnus
2010-09-30, 01:46 AM
I'm beginning to think that the listed price for the CoI was missing one or two zeroes. Stupid WotC typos.:smallannoyed:

This is very true. I think it just didn't occur to them that you could use it to get 3 free wishes.

hewhosaysfish
2010-09-30, 08:19 AM
You could use a CoI to light your way in the dark...

olelia
2010-09-30, 08:21 PM
I'm beginning to think that the listed price for the CoI was missing one or two zeroes. Stupid WotC typos.:smallannoyed:

Well..that wouldn't prevent the loop since you can wish in a +500 vorpal flaming burst icy burst holy throwing distance greatsword since there isn't a gold limitations on wish. You just pay drastically more exp for the item. Except...the catch is since its a spell like ability for the genie it doesn't have a cost :smallamused:.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-30, 09:21 PM
I wouldn't touch the Gate application with a 10' Barbarian. :smalltongue: I would, however, use a Candle of Invocation for a multiclass Cleric with other CL boosters to prep for a big battle. The nifty thing about that use of the Candle is
He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. You want to prepare and cast 9th level spells, but you've only dipped 1 Cloistered Cleric level?

Practiced Spellcaster is +4 CL.
Orange Ioun Stone is +1 CL.
Sacrifice one 1st level spell (slot) + use Ankh of Ascension is +4 CL.
A Bead of Karma is +4 CL.
Knowledge domain lets you cast divination spells at +1 CL. Purification domain lets you cast abjuration spells at +1 CL. Transformation domain lets you cast transmutation spells at +1 CL.
Candle of Invocation is +2 CL.
Put all that together and you can use Shapechange for 170 minutes. Not too shabby for a 1-level Cloistered Cleric dip, though the cost to produce such an outcome is fairly steep. :smallwink: