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View Full Version : 4e Rules Clarification - Marks & Immediate Reactions



Ignatius
2010-09-29, 07:57 AM
While playing last week we had two situations arise where our group of seven didn't know and couldn't find the actual rules on two situations and I was hoping the playground could help us out.

The two rules are this:

1. Can a creature have more than one mark/challenge/curse on it at one time? If not, is there a hierarchy? Or just he who marks last wins? We cant find anything that says a warlock can't curse an enemy that the fighter has Combat challenged. Last week the party fought an Ettin that was under three variants at once due to the players classes.

2. The afore-mentioned Ettin has a power 'swat' that allows it to push a target three squares when an enemy moves into a position that flanks the Ettin. Our Swordmage has the power to teleport next to an enemy and hit it under certain conditions. In this case what is the order of play? Ettin attacks other player, swordmage teleports in, Ettin reacts and pushes away swordmage? Or does teleport not count as 'moving' into a flanking position, or does swordmage attack go off before he is pushed.

Any help you can give on this would be greatly appreciated. We have access to most standard books/guides so page numbers can be read if need be.

Thanks for the help.

Danin
2010-09-29, 08:03 AM
1. A creature may only be marked by one person at a time. New marks cancel out the old one. A warlocks curse is not a mark and you can stack as many such effects on a creature as you want.

2. The Ettin's attack is an immediate interrupt while the swordmage is an immediate reaction (I think), so as far as I'm aware the attack would go down, the swordmage teleports in and the Ettin makes his reaction. Now, I'm not sure on this but I think that's how it goes down.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-29, 08:06 AM
(1) A creature can have only one mark on it at the time; the most recently used mark supersedes the previous one. A "challenge" is an effect that places a mark, so counts as a mark. A "curse" is different from a mark; a creature can have only one curse at the same time, but can have a curse and a mark. Note that multiple warlocks can use each other's curse; it matters that their target is cursed, not by whom.

It is normal and expected that any big monster, particularly a solo, will end up marked, cursed, quarried, slowed, blinded, prone, rattled, and dazed all at the same time, plus taking vulnerable/3 and ongoing/5 from different characters. All of this stacks. This, incidentally, is why many solo monsters are not as strong as one might expect.

(2) Yes, a teleport counts as a move. However, it matters what kind of action the swat is. If it is an immediate action, then the ettin cannot use it on his own turn. If it is a free action, then the ettin can use it in between the swordmage's movement and his attack even if both are part of the same swordmage power: you can explicitly use reactions and free actions in between multiple attacks of a multi-attack, or after the move part of a move-and-attack power like a charge.

Urpriest
2010-09-29, 08:08 AM
Just to add to the last answer on 1., two warlocks' curses also don't stack (without a feat that lets them do so, Accursed Coordination). Quarry and the like stack, though. Only actual marks (things that give -2 to hit people other than the marking character) automatically override eachother.

2. Immediate Interrupts go before the action that triggers them, Immediate Reactions go after. If you Interrupt an Interrupt then you go first. Yes teleporting counts as moving into an adjacent square.

Ignatius
2010-09-29, 08:09 AM
Cool, so as long as it's called something different it stacks? so a creature can be marked, cursed, challenged and whatever by four different classes as long as no two of them are the same?

As this is a party at level 5 and the Ettin was level 10 I let all their marks apply but swordmage was getting a little upset that he was always pushed back after his teleport.

Is there a limit to the number of immediate reactions you can take per round? I am assuming one per turn...

Edit: note to self - typing out posts on an iPhone takes way too long. Wait for the PC next time.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-29, 08:12 AM
Cool, so as long as it's called something different it stacks? so a creature can be marked, cursed, challenged and whatever by four different classes as long as no two of them are the same?
"Challenged" is not an effect. "Quarry" is not an effect either, but a property of the ranger, and so multiple rangers can have the same quarry. Otherwise, yes.

(edit) another exception: if you're subject to e.g. two "daze (save ends)" effects, then you do have to save against both. They are redundant, and would also be redundant to "daze until next turn", but you remain dazed until all of them wear off.


Is there a limit to the number of immediate reactions you can take per round? I am assuming one per turn...
One per round, to be exact.

Note the difference between "round" and "turn": a "round" is the period during which every character and monster gets one "turn".

Urpriest
2010-09-29, 08:18 AM
If you're referring to challenge as a Paladin's challenge, then no, it doesn't stack with the Swordmage's Aegis. Both of those abilities mark the target, and abilities that mark the target override eachother.

Ignatius
2010-09-29, 08:27 AM
One per round, to be exact.


So the Ettin can only push away one player per round as an immediate reaction even though up to six players could meet the trigger requirements on their turn in one round?

I will follow up with all the players to see what all their marks are and establish a 'who's mark stacks' list.

Thanks for all the prompt answers.

dsmiles
2010-09-29, 10:03 AM
Note the difference between "round" and "turn": a "round" is the period during which every character and monster gets one "turn".

Oh, you whippersnappers and your dang newfangled terminology. In my day, a turn was 10 in-game minutes...:smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2010-09-29, 10:09 AM
Oh, you whippersnappers and your dang newfangled terminology. In my day, a turn was 10 in-game minutes...:smalltongue:

Heh. Try playing Roborally with people who don't understand the difference between a phase, turn, or segment :smalltongue:

tcrudisi
2010-09-29, 10:54 AM
So the Ettin can only push away one player per round as an immediate reaction even though up to six players could meet the trigger requirements on their turn in one round?

I will follow up with all the players to see what all their marks are and establish a 'who's mark stacks' list.

Thanks for all the prompt answers.

One thing that might be easier is to post what classes you have in the party here and we can tell you what stacks with what.

Ignatius
2010-09-29, 08:50 PM
At the moment We have a Goliath barbarian, eladrin swordmage, changeling bard, Minotaur fighter/cleric, longtooth shifter warden and elf avenger.

Mando Knight
2010-09-29, 09:14 PM
At the moment We have a Goliath barbarian, eladrin swordmage, changeling bard, Minotaur fighter/cleric, longtooth shifter warden and elf avenger.

Swordmage, Fighter, and Warden are Defenders, and thus use Marks. Combat Challenge and Aegis of Whatever (generally Shielding if optimized, but Assault Eladrin make lulz-tastic skirmish-defenders) are their means of marking the opponent. When a mark is placed on an already-marked creature, the old mark is overwritten. A Fighter can choose not to mark his opponent, though, and Aegis requires an additional action to activate, so they usually won't have a problem if they recognize they're gunning for the same target. A Warden has to target all the opponents around him when he wants to use his marking feature, though, so it doesn't work quite so well for him.

The Avenger is a Striker. None of the Strikers' target-designation features are marks, and thus freely stack with each other (and with actual marks). This includes Oath of Enmity, Hunter's Quarry, and Warlock's Curse (this one specifically doesn't stack with other Warlock's Curses).

Sometimes a power will designate that a target is marked. This functions the same as the Warden's or Fighter's mark, superseding any previous marks imposed on the target. (A "normal" mark as this, however, does not grant the marking character the "retribution" features that a Warden, Fighter, or Battlemind has. It's "just" a mark, and the ability to "enforce" it like a Defender comes with the class.)

anathos
2010-09-29, 09:26 PM
To answer the Ettin issue.
1) Character moves adjacent to the Ettin and into flanking position
2) Ettin attacks with Swat, pushing if it hits
3) Swordmage teleports adjacent to the Ettin, regardless of whether the Ettin hit or missed and makes an attack. Even if the Swordmage teleported into a flanking position it can't use Swat again because it has already used its Immediate action this round.
4) Original character gets to complete his turn. He may still have squares of movement left, and may continue moving if he does.

Mando Knight
2010-09-29, 09:33 PM
To answer the Ettin issue.
1) Character moves adjacent to the Ettin and into flanking position
2) Ettin attacks with Swat, pushing if it hits
3) Swordmage teleports adjacent to the Ettin, regardless of whether the Ettin hit or missed and makes an attack. Even if the Swordmage teleported into a flanking position it can't use Swat again because it has already used its Immediate action this round.
4) Original character gets to complete his turn. He may still have squares of movement left, and may continue moving if he does.

Or, possibly...

1.) Ettin's turn. Attacks a character other than Swordmage.
2.) Swordmage warps into flanking position.
3.) Ettin wants to Swat, but can't: you can't use immediate actions on your own turn.

Either way, the Ettin is now flanked by the Swordmage and hurt. Sounds like trouble, doesn't it? :smallamused:

anathos
2010-09-29, 09:46 PM
I just realized that the Ettin gets two turns per round, and its ability to use immediate actions refresh on each of its turns. That thing is really hard to flank.

Mando Knight
2010-09-29, 10:06 PM
I just realized that the Ettin gets two turns per round, and its ability to use immediate actions refresh on each of its turns. That thing is really hard to flank.

It's called "Delay Action." Lets you shuffle the order around so you all act together.

anathos
2010-09-29, 10:15 PM
The Ettin can do that too, and it still gets to use one of its turns when it does so. But yes, that would be the best way to deal with that issue.