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Fawsto
2010-09-29, 11:48 AM
So I need some clarification into some rules.

After having half our party (composed by 10th, 11th and a 12th level characters) wiped out by our archenemy True Necromancer (I believe a 14th level character), this question spurred in my mind:

Does the undead that he controls and sent against us do count towards the encounter difficulty? Also, does having previous knowledge of our little visit and having time to cast all buffs previously increase the EL? Do the undead give us any XP?

Using the encounter calculator, the Necro alone would be a difficult encounter against both our full force (5 characters) and the diminished force composed by 3 charcters that actually faced him. But there were 14 (if I remember correctly) CR3 undeads: 2 Ghasts, 3 Wights, 4 Troll Skeletons and 5 Shadows. The corporeal ones seemed to benefit from the corpsecrafter feats (cold damage, explosions, nimbleness, etc).

Are my thoughts correct here? Was the encounter overpowering for the 3 characters that fought?

Thanks

Caliphbubba
2010-09-29, 11:53 AM
what are the 3 characters in question?

The more I think of it I think that the minions probably made the encounter significantly harder. 3 vs 1 pile ups rarely go well for the out numbered party. The little dudes running interferance gave the Necro time to get more actions going.

Still I think the particulars of the 3 characters in question is important information. True Necro 4 levels higher than a straight caster isn't going to have much advantage as far as spell strength because of their split levels and janky progression.

Fawsto
2010-09-29, 12:13 PM
Level 9 rogue/3 Order of the Bow Initiate Elf (useless agains life-sensing undead, but the only member that was able to deal damage to the Necro by shooting 3 arrows that ate about 30-35 points of damage) that got his day ruined by the Troll Skeletons.

Level 6 sorcerer/5 elemental savant (thunder) Human who, due to sheer misfortune, could not even land 1 prismatic ray/feeblemind due to spell resistance the necro had.

Level 10 salad. With this I mean there is a level of barbarian, some levels of ranger and a few levels of horizon walker that composes a 10th level anti-arcane-spiked-chain-wielding character. The Shadows did short work of him.

These are the ones who got themselves killed.

The rest of the party (that was not there) is composed by:

Level 1 fighter/4 cleric/5 church inquisitor/1 contemplative Human. Almost got his ass kicked by a Flame Strike when the rest of the party came to fight. Specialized into going nova in melee.

Level 5 Cleric/4 Radiant Servant of Pelor Human. Also almost got his ass kicked by the Flame Strike. Can turn Undead very well, but the Necro is not helping. Also, he could not even do it due to the Flame Strike.

Level 10 Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus. Got his ass kicked by the Flame Strike. Specialized in disable and control.

A single Flame Strike that caused around 55-60 points of damage to everybody made us flee with a teleport before the undeads mowed us down. You know, Wights are not fun to fight...

Flickerdart
2010-09-29, 12:22 PM
By the CR system, minions created by an enemy (summons, familiars, raised undead) do not count towards the encounter difficulty. The undead would give you no extra XP. CR3 undead wouldn't give you XP at your level anyway.
However, knowledge of your tactics would increase the CR, as would favourable terrain (+1 CR).

Normally, having three characters of those levels (party level 10.3) makes a Very Difficult encounter out of a 14th level opponent. Adding 14 CR3 monsters only raises the CR by a single level even if it did count. Having spellcasters on your side would balance things out fairly well - it would have been one hell of a fight, but not impossible. The remaining party should have no trouble axing this guy with some preparation. Can you fly yet? You should all be flying.

Caliphbubba
2010-09-29, 12:24 PM
That's a pretty nasty Flame Strike to be sure.

I think that if one of the Clerics had been there it'd have been a different story, but the rogue/OoB is practically dead weight in a situation like that.
Coupled with the Necro resisting all the mage was throwing at him it's a pretty grim situation.

Its too bad the mage wasn't able to deal with the minions and let the anti-caster/sneak attackers get up in the Necro's grill. It'd still be dicey at best though.

Fawsto
2010-09-29, 12:37 PM
Damn, this is a very weird rule.

I mean: Which is more dangerous? A level 10 Cleric or a level 10 Cleric with 40 hd of undead by his side?

I understand the rule, but its fundamentation is evading me.

Also, a freaking Wight, for instance, can be very annoying at even higher levels. One hit and you are a down level for an entire day, even if you can succeed in the fort save later.

Shadows go even further away on this. One can end an encounter very, very fast. A fighter without a ghost touch weapon has a great deal of chance of getting screwed, hard.

I mean, that rule seems very, very broken. Specially if you consider that some minions are simply better than the others.

Flickerdart
2010-09-29, 12:50 PM
Nobody said that the CR system worked. Or made sense.

Fawsto
2010-09-29, 12:55 PM
Tell me...



It gets specially weird when you check the entries of some of the samples for PrC. Take the Bone Knight as an example: at the sample character, they describe a bunch of dire wolf skeletons that the BK controls. They have CR as if they were and encounter on their own.

Since the Sample Characters are some of the most bizarre and full of mistakes part of the books, however, using it as an example is hardly valid...

Cursed minion makers...

Techsmart
2010-09-29, 01:05 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but if I remember, there are numerous times that WoTC specifically said that the CR system is merely a guide, not an exact measurement. like someone said, a fighter without a ghost-touch weapon would be in a pretty hard spot, even at a high level, against a shadow. A good party should be able to deal with minions pretty easily. One or two AoE spells could have dealt with most minions, letting the melee characters get in close for the kill.
Also, since the party was 6 people, versus the 4 used in determining normal CRs, I think this would be appropriate as a "very difficult" type of situation. Nothing that couldn't be done, but was intended to push the party to the limit.

Benly
2010-09-29, 01:14 PM
I was under the impression that the "created minions don't raise CR" rule only applies to minions actually generated during combat, the idea being that if the BBEG casts Summon Monster that is just part of his spellcasting which is already accounted for - that summoned monster is a Blasphemy or whatever he's not casting with that slot. Undead minions, constructs, Planar Bindings, and other allies that aren't produced at a cost of his in-combat resources (having been created in advance) would be considered separate creatures and calculated as normal.

Caliphbubba
2010-09-29, 01:31 PM
I was under the impression that the "created minions don't raise CR" rule only applies to minions actually generated during combat, the idea being that if the BBEG casts Summon Monster that is just part of his spellcasting which is already accounted for - that summoned monster is a Blasphemy or whatever he's not casting with that slot. Undead minions, constructs, Planar Bindings, and other allies that aren't produced at a cost of his in-combat resources (having been created in advance) would be considered separate creatures and calculated as normal.

This was my assumption as well.

Coidzor
2010-09-29, 02:20 PM
What's the LA/RHD on the Slaad? Or did you include that in the level 10?

14 CR 3s and 1 CR 14 (or was he something else in addition to a 14th level character?) is an EL 15 compared to a party level of 10.3

The encounter calculator gives an analysis of Overpowering.

As far as I can tell, temporary minions and allies, such as from a summoning spell or ability to summon other fiends are not counted.

Actual created, permanent minions, such as constructs and undead are counted.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-29, 02:29 PM
Damn, this is a very weird rule.

I mean: Which is more dangerous? A level 10 Cleric or a level 10 Cleric with 40 hd of undead by his side?

I understand the rule, but its fundamentation is evading me.

It's odd, to be sure. Basically, encounters vary wildly within a CR. On one side, you have a prepped up, fully buffed char with summons, getting a surprise round, etc. None of that actually increases CR directly, compared to catching the caster in the pub completely unprepared, but the fight will play out totally differently.

In short, CR is based on what the difficulty SHOULD be if all other factors are equal, not what it actually is.

Flickerdart
2010-09-29, 02:32 PM
I was under the impression that the "created minions don't raise CR" rule only applies to minions actually generated during combat, the idea being that if the BBEG casts Summon Monster that is just part of his spellcasting which is already accounted for - that summoned monster is a Blasphemy or whatever he's not casting with that slot. Undead minions, constructs, Planar Bindings, and other allies that aren't produced at a cost of his in-combat resources (having been created in advance) would be considered separate creatures and calculated as normal.
Check, for example, the Rakshasa in MM3. The necromancer one gets a whole slew of minions that are explicitly said to not adjust the CR.

Urpriest
2010-09-29, 02:33 PM
What's the LA/RHD on the Slaad? Or did you include that in the level 10?



In this case, they actually meant salad, not slaad. Weird, no?

Coidzor
2010-09-29, 02:33 PM
In this case, they actually meant salad, not slaad. Weird, no?

Ahh, Psionic Caesar Salads...

Hence, why it's not immoral to ad-hoc circumstantial modifiers to the EL/CR based upon terrain/setting/deliberately hamstrung tactics and such.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-29, 03:03 PM
Ahh, Psionic Caesar Salads...

Hence, why it's not immoral to ad-hoc circumstantial modifiers to the EL/CR based upon terrain/setting/deliberately hamstrung tactics and such.

Would agree. The DMG even reccomends as much. Otherwise, you have a system of rating challenges that doesn't actually rate challenges. Definitely a bit counter-intuitive.

There's a fine line where you don't want to adjust the rewards to punish the party for being clever, though. Sometimes an encounter is easier because of the parties actions, and thus, I don't adjust for that.

Fawsto
2010-09-29, 08:53 PM
Sorry, need to clarify.

I really meant SALAD. A mix of classes.

Only 3 of the 6-men group actually participated on the first battle. The second time when the other 3 went in was pretty much an escape, not a battle.

I think it is more fair to apply the interpretation that permanent minions do count towards encounter CRs.

Imagine, a Cleric could cast Gate, bring in a Planetar and go to town. The Planetar will stay around for a while and the creature is powerful enough to topple a few party members alone. Is it fair to give full XP for encounters where a powerful creature was around to help?

It gets even more bizarre. Lets say the party find themselves fighting a Druid's Animal Companion that is guarding a treasure. The Druid himself is not around and the party beats the critter. How to calculate the XP now?

Minions are a murky subject in the rules... God damn it.