Why all the homebrew hate?

[Zaydos]

You can...if you homebrew demonic soulmelds.

Now that is a suggestion I like. Would anybody happen to know if that's been done?

[Saph]

And if the original material frankly sucks, like, say, the Marshal? What then?

Then my short answer is: deal with it. Look at other classes that are more effective but which fulfil the same role. Investigate variant and multiclass builds. In the case of the Marshal, I'd suggest you look at a White Raven Crusader or Warblade, or at an IC-focused Bard, or at a multiclass build with two levels of Marshall, or some combination of several of the above.

Now if after exploring all those avenues your honest conclusion is that it is impossible to make your chosen character concept playable within the 3.5 rules, then I'll work with you to consider homebrew.

[Fax Celestis]

Then my short answer is: deal with it. Look at other classes that are more effective but which fulfil the same role. Investigate variant and multiclass builds. In the case of the Marshal, I'd suggest you look at a White Raven Crusader or Warblade, or at an IC-focused Bard, or at a multiclass build with two levels of Marshall, or some combination of several of the above.

So you would rather I did multiclassing acrobatics and acquire a bunch of class features that I don't really want, spend feats on prerequisites that I'll never use, and generally have a huge hassle trying to play my character than bring this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165950) to the table.

[Emmerask]

Another point is that not everyone has book xy that allows me to realize build y so either buy book xy (which is no longer available or only on ebay for an obscene amount of money) or just use homebrew :smallwink:

[Esser-Z]

I like homebrew as a concept. The core of the game is a creative experience, and it's just more of that. It can be quite fun.

As a DM, I review it on a case to case basis. Homebrew is not inherently broken or balanced any more than Core. Some homebrew is bad for myriad reasons including power level, some is very good.

[Kylarra]

Frankly, if I wanted to play a game that was supposed to encompass every possible concept, I wouldn't be playing a class-based game, even one that is only marginally affiliated with classes like 3.x.


That said, my position is Default off with minor tweaks to existing classes favored over entirely new ones. I am not entirely opposed to homebrew, but at the op-levels of my current group, it's generally not needed beyond the aforementioned smaller class tweaks.

[true_shinken]

Another point is that not everyone has book xy that allows me to realize build y so either buy book xy (which is no longer available or only on ebay for an obscene amount of money) or just use homebrew :smallwink:

Lots of people do have the books then. Can you blame a DM for not wanting homebrew when he actually bought all the books?

[Zaydos]

Frankly, if I wanted to play a game that was supposed to encompass every possible concept, I wouldn't be playing a class-based game, even one that is only marginally affiliated with classes like 3.x.


That said, my position is Default off with minor tweaks to existing classes favored over entirely new ones. I am not entirely opposed to homebrew, but at the op-levels of my current group, it's generally not needed beyond the aforementioned smaller class tweaks.

So what op-level would you say your current group is? Is more tweaks/homebrew required for a low op group or a high op group?

[dsmiles]

Okay, look.

This is a demon.
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/203/9/8/Cthulhu_Rising_by_higherdepths.jpg

Note how the demon doesn't look like a dretch.

I'm sorry, Fax, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Cthulhu is most definitely not just a demon. Granted, your reasoning is sound, but it's Cthulhu...:smalltongue:

[Saph]

So you would rather I did multiclassing acrobatics and acquire a bunch of class features that I don't really want, spend feats on prerequisites that I'll never use, and generally have a huge hassle trying to play my character than bring this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165950) to the table.

Yes.

You see, in this situation, someone is going to have to do a significant amount of work. Either I'm going to have to do the work to understand your new class (which, at first glance is basically incomprehensible to me because it references multiple things which don't exist in 3.5) or you're going to have to do the work to develop a build.

Since I'm the DM and have to cater to 5 other players as well as develop the gameworld, I have both much more work to do than you and also the final say in disputes. This means that any extra work, where possible, is going to be allocated to you rather than to me. This goes double for work where the sole objective is "make my character more powerful". Wanting to become more powerful isn't inherently bad, but neither is it my problem.

[Morph Bark]

So you would rather I did multiclassing acrobatics and acquire a bunch of class features that I don't really want, spend feats on prerequisites that I'll never use, and generally have a huge hassle trying to play my character than bring this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165950) to the table.

Sometimes a DM would rather save headaches trying to learn how new classes work, homebrew or not. It's partly (but definitely not fully) for that reason that the classes most often used in actual play are core classes. A player only needs to keep track of their own character's abilities. A DM needs to know what all the characters are capable of in order to give them appropriate challenges.

Sure, sometimes it may not seem fair to a player, especially when the sources the DM allows don't cover a concept the player wants to work with, but sometimes that's just how it is and the player has to deal with the fact that he won't be able to play a mecha pilot, a gunslinger, a Jedi, or even something like the marshal you linked (then again, not all DnD is d20r).


EDIT: Heh, kinda got me ninja'd here, unexpectedly.

[Kylarra]

So what op-level would you say your current group is? Is more tweaks/homebrew required for a low op group or a high op group?My group is fairly low-op. Most of them are what we/I would call casual gamers, or to use magic terminology, Timmy/Johnny rather than Spikes. They'll focus on things that amuse them, janky combos or apparently bigger numbers, rather than the most optimal ways of achieving that, and frankly that makes the game easier to run for me.

In my opinion, high-op group tends to require more tweaks/homebrew to bring "poor concepts" up to the average level, whereas with low-op characters, I can just mix in a little bit more op-fu and stronger suggestions to bring it up to the average level.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes.

I am going to stop posting in this thread before I say something I regret.

[Zaydos]

My group is fairly low-op. Most of them are what we/I would call casual gamers, or to use magic terminology, Timmy/Johnny rather than Spikes. They'll focus on things that amuse them, janky combos or apparently bigger numbers, rather than the most optimal ways of achieving that, and frankly that makes the game easier to run for me.

In my opinion, high-op group tends to require more tweaks/homebrew to bring "poor concepts" up to the average level, whereas with low-op characters, I can just mix in a little bit more op-fu and stronger suggestions to bring it up to the average level.

That's what I was expecting, it's just interesting to see which people think necessitates homebrew more.

Personally I like homebrew and that's a reason I like 3.5 it's easier to homebrew (at least in my experience) than 2e or 4e.

[true_shinken]

I am going to stop posting in this thread before I say something I regret.

Having seen your unedited post, I think that is a sound idea.

[Kylarra]

That's what I was expecting, it's just interesting to see which people think necessitates homebrew more.

Personally I like homebrew and that's a reason I like 3.5 it's easier to homebrew (at least in my experience) than 2e or 4e.I don't have anything inherently against homebrew, I do use a fair number of houserules already, but it's simply not necessary for the majority of my group, and when I'm not the DM, there are enough classes that I haven't played yet that I don't need to delve into homebrew ones.

[Zaydos]

I don't have anything inherently against homebrew, I do use a fair number of houserules already, but it's simply not necessary for the majority of my group, and when I'm not the DM, there are enough classes that I haven't played yet that I don't need to delve into homebrew ones.

I can understand that completely. The majority of homebrew I ask to use as a PC is dual-class PrCs, or a heal-bot that's actually better at healing than a cleric (I like being the healer).

As a DM I love making homebrew, though, and that's why I initially preferred 3e (now I'm addicted to the number of options); can't ever seem to find players interested in trying mine out though.

[Morithias]

Here's my challenge for you in terms of non-homebrew...find me a class based on say....running a country. A "noble" class or something like that, that could be considered a "PC" class. The aristocrat and noble class from DCS are both NPC classes and suck. Find me a non-homebrew class that is decent for those purposes.

I still find it weird that there is a merchant prince class, but no class for running an empire.

[Saph]

Here's my challenge for you in terms of non-homebrew...find me a class based on say....running a country. A "noble" class or something like that, that could be considered a "PC" class. The aristocrat and noble class from DCS are both NPC classes and suck. Find me a non-homebrew class that is decent for those purposes.

I had to deal with exactly this problem for my last campaign. I ended up asking for suggestions on these boards.

And someone came up with a class that, upon thinking about it, was perfect: the beguiler. All the social skills, lots of skill points, abilities relating to subterfuge and deception, and spells for protection and information gathering. I ended up adding Mindbender for telepathy, too.

[Morithias]

I had to deal with exactly this problem for my last campaign. I ended up asking for suggestions on these boards.

And someone came up with a class that, upon thinking about it, was perfect: the beguiler. All the social skills, lots of skill points, abilities relating to subterfuge and deception, and spells for protection and information gathering. I ended up adding Mindbender for telepathy, too.

Its looks well, but when I see that class, it looks like "rogue with spells" to me, rather than "noble prince". I mean abilities that give you bonuses in organizations and things like that. The AEG empire had the closest thing I could find, but even that was not PC useable.

[Zaydos]

Here's my challenge for you in terms of non-homebrew...find me a class based on say....running a country. A "noble" class or something like that, that could be considered a "PC" class. The aristocrat and noble class from DCS are both NPC classes and suck. Find me a non-homebrew class that is decent for those purposes.

I still find it weird that there is a merchant prince class, but no class for running an empire.

What kind of government are you looking for?

OA Samurai with high ranks in Diplomacy, Intimidate Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), and Sense Motive. You have to use Knowledge Devotion to get the knowledge skill, the Educated feat, or just take it cross-class but you're a warrior king. Maybe through in some levels of Marshal.

Or Bard all social skills and good diplomacy, mix in a level of Marshal for charisma to Diplomacy again.

Theocracy? Cleric. Put a good stat in Charisma focus on buffing your allies and not being CoDzilla. Have good diplomacy stats.

Mageocracy? Wizard. Be self-absorbed as your evil chancellor turns your kingdom into a literal living hell and then notice, and incinerate him with magic.

Honestly running a country in a normal game means making a few choices, taking the Landlord and Leadership feats, having good diplomacy, and RP. You don't need a class for that.

Now if you want involved rules for running a country, then you need homebrew.

[Morph Bark]

I still find it weird that there is a merchant prince class,

There is?


How do you like that flaw now?

I certainly like spelling "warkry".

[Demons_eye]

Here's my challenge for you in terms of non-homebrew...find me a class based on say....running a country. A "noble" class or something like that, that could be considered a "PC" class. The aristocrat and noble class from DCS are both NPC classes and suck. Find me a non-homebrew class that is decent for those purposes.

I still find it weird that there is a merchant prince class, but no class for running an empire.

Bard? Really diplomacy and bluff work out really well for tending to the sheep :smalltongue:

[Rogue 7]

Actual things brought up by players in the past: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Sphenisciphobia_(3.5e_Flaw)


Man, I would take this and run it into the ground.

A cruel penguin overlord leads his vast horde of penguin warriors out from the frozen wastes, sweeping forth to conquer all in the name of their dark lord and master. Penguin infiltrators move ahead of the horde, sowing chaos and destruction as they go. The "WARK" war-cry of these savage beasts can sow fear in the heart of even the bravest warriors. They spare none, leaving all behind them destroyed beyond repair. Perhaps they can be appeased with offerings of fish, but none of your envoys have yet returned alive. There are rumors of white dragons, chained and bound, in servitude to their penguin masters, turning battlefields into frozen wastes.

Special penguin sabouteurs, armed with knives, specially modified with alchemical potions and dark magic so that they explode given the slightest provocation. Prinny, d00d!

One reluctant turncoat, forced to work with the party, an outcast from penguin society for his love of hot springs. He's also inordinately fond of beer. Yes, it's Pen-Pen. Couldn't resist.

How do you like that flaw now, buddy?

[Morithias]

There is?


Yes there is, in Power of Fauren. Bonuses to profit checks when running businesses using DMG2 rules, and cuts capital costs. You can open a shop in the wild for 2000 gold. Max/min enough and it can cost you less to open a shop than it gives you for a month. Exponents rule ahoy!

[Tyndmyr]

So you would rather I did multiclassing acrobatics and acquire a bunch of class features that I don't really want, spend feats on prerequisites that I'll never use, and generally have a huge hassle trying to play my character than bring this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165950) to the table.

Yes. Investment is poor options as prerequisites is a frequent requirement for PrCs. Ditching that philosophy entirely is certainly possible, but it is a significant adjustment to PrC design entirely, which generally involves investment in order to get some specific benefits. While the balance of this varies a bit in practice, I believe the concept of investing in order to gain the benefits of PrCs is a sound one at it's core, and I certainly don't wish to toss out prereqs as a whole.

If the end result has a reasonable level of playability, then the dislike for the prereqs is a build/power level complaint, not one of "It can't be done". Complex build complaints are mitigated by me helping players build their characters if they don't know how to get to the goal they want. I allow retraining, too, as I don't believe in punishing new players forever for early mistakes.

Power complaints are addressed relative to the party. If you're complaining that what you want to do is too weak, but nobody in the party is significantly more powerful than you...odds are you're not going to get a lot of help. If you want to play something like a truenamer or monk when the party is vastly above you in power level, we'll work something out. This will involve homebrew only if no other option is available.

And yes, w regards to the Babau customization, more BaB than you have ECL is already dodgy. All good saves, plus a selection of powerful SLAs? That would get shot down in a heartbeat.

[Morph Bark]

Yes there is, in Power of Fauren. Bonuses to profit checks when running businesses using DMG2 rules, and cuts capital costs. You can open a shop in the wild for 2000 gold. Max/min enough and it can cost you less to open a shop than it gives you for a month. Exponents rule ahoy!

Oh my.

...

I must now go investigate immediately! Watson, to the dungmobile!

It's called the dungmobile because it is mobile and can go into dungeons!

[Tyndmyr]

For fun, investigate SBG, which has feats and stuff based around getting yourself an epic building on the cheap.

Note that said building can encompass almost anything, including shops. You could combine these options to make the world's first fantasy strip mall owner, if you felt so inclined. They're incredibly flexible.

Personally, I love the business and civilization type rules in D&D, and feel that they are underrated in general. Sure, not everyone may want to build an empire, but doing so could be a pretty epic campaign.

Edit: Fax, I don't mind the sarcasm at all. I've been known to use it myself(much more so in real life). With regards to the demon thing, I don't really care much which flavor of demon he wants...but you can't start off with epic awesomeness without appropriate level adjust. I won't say that the LA of every WoTC race ever is perfect, but they make a pretty good guideline. I certainly wouldn't outright drop racial HD or LA entirely, as there are many examples of overpowered things based on those alone. The dretch would be one such example, as he'd be outshining the rest of the party dramatically at ECL 2.

[Saph]

Its looks well, but when I see that class, it looks like "rogue with spells" to me, rather than "noble prince".

That's the point of the beguiler. The class may look like "rogue with spells". The character can look like anything he pleases, and you'll never know. :)


I mean abilities that give you bonuses in organizations and things like that. The AEG empire had the closest thing I could find, but even that was not PC useable.

D&D doesn't have many rules for organisations; Leadership and the PHB II rules for affiliations are all that spring to mind, and most games handle it by RP and social skills.

[Tyndmyr]

You've got a number of organizations in the complete series as well. Adventurer has quite a few, but you can find additional specific organizations related to a certain topic in other books, such as Complete Scoundrel and Complete Divine.

Hordes of the Abyss has a coupla of em too. Ravenloft has a couple. Can't recall all of the top of my head, but there's a ton of them out there, with varying levels of detail and topics.

Edit: Cityscape had some good stuff too, IIRC, and most campaign settings have a rather complex organizational stuff. Frequently regional and national stuff as well.

[Emmerask]

D&D doesn't have many rules for organisations; Leadership and the PHB II rules for affiliations are all that spring to mind, and most games handle it by RP and social skills.

wait... are you saying one should homebrew mechanics for that? :smallwink::smallwink:

[Esser-Z]

I'm sorry, Fax, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Cthulhu is most definitely not just a demon. Granted, your reasoning is sound, but it's Cthulhu...:smalltongue:
From an outside point of view, sure. But from a player character point of view, he just gives more exp. :smalltongue:

[Saph]

wait... are you saying one should homebrew mechanics for that? :smallwink::smallwink:

Nah, I much prefer RP for that kind of thing. It's too complicated to be modelled by simple mechanics.

[Zaydos]

Nah, I much prefer RP for that kind of thing. It's too complicated to be modelled by simple mechanics.

This, so much this. For ruling a kingdom I'd much rather have the PCs RP it than have a set of rules and guidelines.

[Beheld]

This already looks like too much. Full base attack bonus, DR and all good saves at low levels is already 'wait, what?'. Getting decent natural weapons on top of that, easily getting extra attacks while all other classes need a lot of effort to gain them... and you still get SLAs? That's beyond the Big Five, dude... and they are already too much.
You could, though, build a character with a few of those abilities. There are rules for those. You could start as a tiefling caster (or warlock, if you are set on SLAs) then into Acolyte of the Skin. That would eventually get most of wha you want, without the gamebreaking part. You can't have all the cookies in the jar for a reason.

This... is not that hard.

No, full BAB, all good saves, and DR 1 and one natural attack is not "already too much" at level 1. I mean, it's a Monk with full BAB if you give it two natural attacks. If you give it only one, then it's not even that.

And no, a Tielfing spellcaster (or Warlock), besides not actually being a demon, doesn't actually fight like a Demon at all, since they have no natural attacks, suck terribly if they do get some, and don't do any of the described things.

Look here's level 1 of the Demon hombrew class:

BAB +1, saves +2, +2, +2
1: Demonic Resilience, Demonic Resistance, Demonic Weapons.

Demonic Resilience (Su): Demons gain DR equal to their Demon level. At level one this is DR /magic.

At level 7 this becomes Good or Cold Iron.

At level 13 it becomes Good and Cold Iron.

Demonic Resistance (Ex): A Demon gains Electricity Resistance 10.

At level 2, A Demon is immune to poison.

At level 4, A Demon gains Resistance 30 to Electricity.

At level 6, A Demon gains Resistance 10 to Acid, Fire, and Cold.

At level 8, A Demon is immune to Electricity.

Demonic Weapons (Ex): A Demon gains two claw attacks, and he can use both as primary natural weapons. They do 1d6+ Str mod damage.

At level 6 he gains a Bite attack which does 1d8+ Str Mod.

Then you just add in other abilities, At level 4 he might get once a day summons of other creatures. At level 5 he might get Stinking Cloud once a day, or Darkness at will, and heck you could even have what SLAs he gets somewhat open to choice from a list of options.

That's not all the cookies in the jar. That's weaker than a Warblade, that's Weaker than a Wizard.

[Zaydos]

This... is not that hard.

No, full BAB, all good saves, and DR 1 and one natural attack is not "already too much" at level 1. I mean, it's a Monk with full BAB if you give it two natural attacks. If you give it only one, then it's not even that.

And no, a Tielfing spellcaster (or Warlock), besides not actually being a demon, doesn't actually fight like a Demon at all, since they have no natural attacks, suck terribly if they do get some, and don't do any of the described things.

Look here's level 1 of the Demon hombrew class:

BAB +1, saves +2, +2, +2
1: Demonic Resilience, Demonic Resistance, Demonic Weapons.

Demonic Resilience (Su): Demons gain DR equal to their Demon level. At level one this is DR /magic.

At level 7 this becomes Good or Cold Iron.

At level 13 it becomes Good and Cold Iron.

Demonic Resistance (Ex): A Demon gains Electricity Resistance 10.

At level 2, A Demon is immune to poison.

At level 4, A Demon gains Resistance 30 to Electricity.

At level 6, A Demon gains Resistance 10 to Acid, Fire, and Cold.

At level 8, A Demon is immune to Electricity.

Demonic Weapons (Ex): A Demon gains two claw attacks, and he can use both as primary natural weapons. They do 1d6+ Str mod damage.

At level 6 he gains a Bite attack which does 1d8+ Str Mod.

Then you just add in other abilities, At level 4 he might get once a day summons of other creatures. At level 5 he might get Stinking Cloud once a day, or Darkness at will, and heck you could even have what SLAs he gets somewhat open to choice from a list of options.

That's not all the cookies in the jar. That's weaker than a Warblade, that's Weaker than a Wizard.

2 natural attacks > flurry at level 1 (+2 to hit compared to flurry); as for the homebrew I'm actually not sure how it matches up to warblade at Lv 1; does it have any armor proficiencies, I'm assuming not so it's a -2 to AC compared to a warblade; with an extra attack each round, but no maneuvers (1st level maneuvers include an extra attack with some limits), and with all good saves it actually comes out liable to be ahead of warblade at 1st.

[Tyndmyr]

This... is not that hard.

No, full BAB, all good saves, and DR 1 and one natural attack is not "already too much" at level 1. I mean, it's a Monk with full BAB if you give it two natural attacks. If you give it only one, then it's not even that.

Level 1? You said you wanted to be a Babau at level 6. It has +7 BaB. Getting more HD and BaB that you have levels(or have ECL) is generally not allowed within the context of 3.5.

Your SLAs and abilities are significantly better than those of a comparable monk, and since you have two primary attacks and one secondary, you have as many attacks as a monk using flurry of blows, without any of the downsides.

In addition, you have a couple sneak attack die, can try to summon buddies, and so forth. The list of immunities and resistances alone is not generally available at that level. You would almost certainly outperform everyone in your party.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if GMs simply didn't allow access to greater teleport at level 6 at all, no matter how you got it. It could be problematic for many campaigns, as it's not an expected power at that level.


And no, a Tielfing spellcaster (or Warlock), besides not actually being a demon, doesn't actually fight like a Demon at all, since they have no natural attacks, suck terribly if they do get some, and don't do any of the described things.

Ah, there's the problem. "suck terribly". See, you could build a perfectly servicable gish with tiefling. You can do melee attacks and spells. You can even have natural attacks. A spellcaster can, if they wish, hit like a ton of bricks with natural attacks.

The fact that you have tradeoffs, and can't be awesome at everything is necessary for balance. And, tbh, spellcasters don't really suck terribly at anything, unless you want them to.

It appears you have an idea of Demon that is wrapped up in a very high level of power, one that could be problematic in many games.


Look here's level 1 of the Demon hombrew class:

BAB +1, saves +2, +2, +2
1: Demonic Resilience, Demonic Resistance, Demonic Weapons.

Demonic Resilience (Su): Demons gain DR equal to their Demon level. At level one this is DR /magic.

At level 7 this becomes Good or Cold Iron.

At level 13 it becomes Good and Cold Iron.

Demonic Resistance (Ex): A Demon gains Electricity Resistance 10.

At level 2, A Demon is immune to poison.

At level 4, A Demon gains Resistance 30 to Electricity.

At level 6, A Demon gains Resistance 10 to Acid, Fire, and Cold.

At level 8, A Demon is immune to Electricity.

Demonic Weapons (Ex): A Demon gains two claw attacks, and he can use both as primary natural weapons. They do 1d6+ Str mod damage.

At level 6 he gains a Bite attack which does 1d8+ Str Mod.

Then you just add in other abilities, At level 4 he might get once a day summons of other creatures. At level 5 he might get Stinking Cloud once a day, or Darkness at will, and heck you could even have what SLAs he gets somewhat open to choice from a list of options.

That's not all the cookies in the jar. That's weaker than a Warblade, that's Weaker than a Wizard.

The ability to multiattack at level 1, DR, with full BaB and all good saves makes him probably one of the best melee dual wielders available at level 1. Significant resistances and immunities at level 1 and 2 typically involve level adjustment. Especially with undefined "other abilities", this class would be very questionable in balance.

It also doesn't list things such as skills, hit die, and so forth. It's not really a finished class, so much as a sketch of what you'd like.

Other questionable points are full str on the bite attack, and the strange DR ability at level 7 and 13(ie, DR negated by good AND cold iron is worse than Or. Unless it's one of those combination ones, which is not clear. And the exact workings of the Or is questionable.). If a player came to me with this, he would certainly not be allowed to use it for these reasons.

[Zaydos]

DR x/good or cold iron means an attack that deals either good or cold iron overcomes it.
DR x/good and cold iron means you have to have a good cold iron attack to overcome it.

It's standard MM wording. Nothing odd there. Although I agree with you on the balance points.

[Kylarra]

Presumably just outsider HD for the basic framework.

[Tyndmyr]

Gotcha.

I was wondering if he was trying to indicate you get to choose the DR type, as some demons only gain DR vs one type.

With outsider HD as the framework, that leaves the character with a d8 and 8 skill points per level. Doesn't really address the proficiencies though, Im afraid.

Basically, it would be a "demon HD" sort of progression that is strictly better than outsider hit die, and substantially superior to melee class levels.

[Kylarra]

Well you'd have weapon proficiencies (simple/martial) and no armor, since the class isn't described as wearing armor.


:smalltongue:


What it actually doesn't address at all is skills, since most outsiders pull their skills from a predefined list and those are their only "class" skills. Based on that you'd get to choose 8+int skills as class skills I suppose.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The ability to multiattack at level 1, DR, with full BaB and all good saves makes him probably one of the best melee dual wielders available at level 1. Significant resistances and immunities at level 1 and 2 typically involve level adjustment. Especially with undefined "other abilities", this class would be very questionable in balance.

To be fair, a warblade with the Steel Wind and Stone Bones maneuvers and the Flame's Blessing stance (picked up with Martial Stance after picking another DW maneuver with Martial Study) is roughly the same power level. It has +1 BAB, d12 HD, good Fort, two attacks at no penalty as a standard action every other round, DR 5/adamantine after a strike, fire resistance 5, and three more maneuvers, compared to +1 BAB, d8 HD, three good saves, two attacks at no penalty as a full attack, DR 1/magic, electricity resistance 10, and nothing else. The demon has better saves, more energy resistance, more constant DR, and (if using outsider HD as the base) more skill points, at the expense of better DR, better HD, and any options besides attacking with two natural weapons. I'm not really seeing this as being all that unreasonable.

I would suggest that Beheld either work up a fully-fleshed-out demon class in the Homebrew section or post a framework and ask for help with it, and once it's finished and judged to be balanced he can link it here and see if it's possible to accomplish the same thing using official material.

[Fax Celestis]

If I, as a player, come to you and say "here is this 20 level class. It gains lore at 1st level, takes the Dark Knowledge feature from the Archivist, gains a bonus feat that augments that Dark Knowledge every five levels, has Knowledge Devotion at 2nd level (and a supporting class feature that powers such an ability but does nothing else 3+Int times a day), has the ranger's Favored Enemy (to demonstrate advanced knowledge of specific kinds of creatures) and also a class feature in which he can determine weaknesses of monsters he has chosen Favored Enemy for, has all skills as class skills, a d8 HD, 1/1 BAB, and good Fortitude and Reflex saves. I call it the Monster Hunter/Giles", why would you deny that out of hand? Because I made it, instead of someone you've never heard of making it and putting it in a book? :smallconfused:

Just following up on this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170437) It is usable in a 3.5 game by switching the Skill Mastery feature for the 3.5 rogue's Skill Mastery feature, giving it proficiency with simple and martial weapons instead of groups, removing the prowess line, using the Ranger's version of favored enemy, and giving it 6+Int skills, using the rogue's skill list and adding all Knowledge skills.

[Zaydos]

Steel Wind requires two different targets so you can't hit one enemy twice which is a major disadvantage as often you only threaten one enemy. Stone Bones requires you to hit to get the DR and this is first level where you have a +5 tops (if human without WF) versus 14 AC, and to get Flame's Blessing takes both your feats assuming you are human.

This gets a feat to use to make itself better. Still has all the advantages listed above, and the ones you didn't list such as that they can target one creature twice, giving them a 84% chance of killing that orc they're facing instead of a 60%. Now if they're facing two orcs in melee at once they both have a 84% chance of killing one, and a 36% chance of killing both.

[dsmiles]

Yes there is, in Power of Fauren. Bonuses to profit checks when running businesses using DMG2 rules, and cuts capital costs. You can open a shop in the wild for 2000 gold. Max/min enough and it can cost you less to open a shop than it gives you for a month. Exponents rule ahoy!

GAH!:smallfurious:Do you realize how useful this information would have been four years ago, when I was running my Charisma-based rogue as a merchant prince!?!?!?:smallfurious:

Still, he worked out ok. He did buy half a continent, after all. :smalltongue:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Steel Wind requires two different targets so you can't hit one enemy twice which is a major disadvantage as often you only threaten one enemy. Stone Bones requires you to hit to get the DR and this is first level where you have a +5 tops (if human without WF) versus 14 AC, and to get Flame's Blessing takes both your feats assuming you are human.

This gets a feat to use to make itself better. Still has all the advantages listed above, and the ones you didn't list such as that they can target one creature twice, giving them a 84% chance of killing that orc they're facing instead of a 60%. Now if they're facing two orcs in melee at once they both have a 84% chance of killing one, and a 36% chance of killing both.

Yes, there are differences, and there are different comparative advantages. No one class will perfectly match the demon's capabilities--that's kind of the point, after all. The fact remains, though, that having DR 1 and two attacks isn't OMGBROKEN at level 1 when other characters can easily get DR 5 and two attacks. On the feats issue, yes it takes the warblade's two feats, but he has three other effective feats in the form of his other two maneuvers and one stance.

That's only one possible example, too, and just the first one I thought of out of the many possible approximate builds; tieflings, for instance, get cold, electricity, and fire resistance 5, which is comparable to the demon's electricity resistance 10 in that it protects against more things and that you're only doing 1d6 or so energy damage at this level anyway.

[Tharck]

To be fair, a warblade with the Steel Wind and Stone Bones maneuvers and the Flame's Blessing stance (picked up with Martial Stance after picking another DW maneuver with Martial Study) is roughly the same power level. It has +1 BAB, d12 HD, good Fort, two attacks at no penalty as a standard action every other round, DR 5/adamantine after a strike, fire resistance 5, and three more maneuvers, compared to +1 BAB, d8 HD, three good saves, two attacks at no penalty as a full attack, DR 1/magic, electricity resistance 10, and nothing else. The demon has better saves, more energy resistance, more constant DR, and (if using outsider HD as the base) more skill points, at the expense of better DR, better HD, and any options besides attacking with two natural weapons. I'm not really seeing this as being all that unreasonable.

I would suggest that Beheld either work up a fully-fleshed-out demon class in the Homebrew section or post a framework and ask for help with it, and once it's finished and judged to be balanced he can link it here and see if it's possible to accomplish the same thing using official material.

I almost agree. Everything looks fine except the bite attack should deal 1/2 STR damage and deliver a poison attack that deals DEX damage. 2d6 / 1d6 sounds reasonable with a DC of 10 + CON Bonus + damage dealt with bite. Greater Teleport is cool, but giving them G-Teleport Other is equally cool especially with an ability that when they attack with a claw and try to teleport Other someone that the claw also delivers a Bestow Curse -7 to their next saving throw. Then you can give a Dimensional Anchor ability and Dim Anchor a dragon and auto -7 to his next save and then bite him. Also an innate ability that speeds poison up instead of delaying it (no save no SR just need to hit 2 claw attacks) so you can deal 3d6 DEX damage immediately.

I <3 balance.

[Beheld]

I would suggest that Beheld either work up a fully-fleshed-out demon class in the Homebrew section or post a framework and ask for help with it, and once it's finished and judged to be balanced he can link it here and see if it's possible to accomplish the same thing using official material.

I don't need to, because there are perfectly serviceable demonic homebrews that exist, and serve my purposes just fine. Because I don't play at a balance point where two natural attacks at level 1 one a full attack is broken, so I don't need to use a class that caters to that power level, it was just an example of the first level of a class, showing that it's possible to give scaling abilities such that it shows the the beginning of how to make a build that acts like a Demon.

@ Everyone still harping over BAB +7. It was an example of the type of thing, not a demand for identically X. It's just an example of theme. I don't care about racial mods, the specific BAB, or the specific immunities and telepathy, But since everyone kept getting upset about the specific abilities, I presented an example class that follows a progression, and is clearly not broken.

That class too, is just an example. I have and play the hombrewed classes which allow me to play my concepts that are not reproducible within the WotC rules. Saying "You can almost be sort of like that a little bit at level 28" is not the sort of thing that is a compelling argument against using homebrew.

[true_shinken]

I'm not really seeing this as being all that unreasonable.

He is also a demon, so I expect his type to change to outsider or something, making him immune to a lot of other stuff the Warblade isn't.
And with the feats the Warblade spent trying to catch up, our Demon could get Martial Study or Shape Soulmeld, getting even more options.


Yes, there are differences, and there are different comparative advantages. No one class will perfectly match the demon's capabilities--that's kind of the point, after all. The fact remains, though, that having DR 1 and two attacks isn't OMGBROKEN at level 1 when other characters can easily get DR 5 and two attacks. On the feats issue, yes it takes the warblade's two feats, but he has three other effective feats in the form of his other two maneuvers and one stance.
Let me get this straight. One of the most powerful melee classes in the game has to make an effort to get close to what the 'demon class' gets... and you think that's just fine?
OK, the demon also gets 8 skill points per level. On par with the Rogue. No base class in D&D as we know gets full base attack bonus, all good saves and 8 skill points per level.
Also, he can use his feats to replicate the Warblade's tricks. Or to get a soulmeld. And it's a class. He can still multiclass and take advantage of other stuff - say, Barbarian's pounce. Or a Rogue's Sneak Attack. With one single attack and Power Attack being so unreliable at low levels, it's quite obvious that the Demon is a lot more powerful than other melee characters.


That's only one possible example, too, and just the first one I thought of out of the many possible approximate builds; tieflings, for instance, get cold, electricity, and fire resistance 5, which is comparable to the demon's electricity resistance 10 in that it protects against more things and that you're only doing 1d6 or so energy damage at this level anyway.
And the tiefling has a level adjustment of +1. This (lower) resistance, an advantage of +2 on a stat, outsider type. That's it.

[Fax Celestis]

And the tiefling has a level adjustment of +1. This (lower) resistance, an advantage of +2 on a stat, outsider type. That's it.

And it is pretty broadly accepted that tiefling's adjusts aren't worth the LA. At all.

[true_shinken]

And it is pretty broadly accepted that tiefling's adjusts aren't worth the LA. At all.

Is it? Back at 339, it was considered one of the few LA that was actually acceptable with buyoff.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

He is also a demon, so I expect his type to change to outsider or something, making him immune to a lot of other stuff the Warblade isn't.

Otherworldly.


And with the feats the Warblade spent trying to catch up, our Demon could get Martial Study or Shape Soulmeld, getting even more options.

The warblade isn't "catching up," he's picking up energy resistance in one of several ways. As mentioned, he has three extra maneuvers, so if you go that route he still comes out a feat or two ahead of the demon, and if you go the tiefling route he doesn't need to use feats at all.


Let me get this straight. One of the most powerful melee classes in the game has to make an effort to get close to what the 'demon class' gets... and you think that's just fine?

Making an effort? The extra feats are just for the energy resistance which, again, can be obtained in other ways. Otherwise, it's a generic warblade build.


OK, the demon also gets 8 skill points per level. On par with the Rogue. No base class in D&D as we know gets full base attack bonus, all good saves and 8 skill points per level.

If you give him 8 skill points per level. Getting the outsider type through Otherworldly and all the other "change type to X but don't recalculate stats" is plenty of precedent for giving it fewer skill points.


Also, he can use his feats to replicate the Warblade's tricks. Or to get a soulmeld. And it's a class. He can still multiclass and take advantage of other stuff - say, Barbarian's pounce. Or a Rogue's Sneak Attack.

...and? Warblades can multiclass too.

Look, you're focusing on one specific example when I mentioned other possibilities. There are multiple different ways to get multiple attacks at level 1 with no penalty, including Steel Wind and Whirling Frenzy+Pounce. There are multiple different ways to get DR and resistances at level 1, including Stone Bones and racial features. If you don't want to spend two feats on fire resistance 5+ and an extra maneuver, be a tiefling (or aasimar or...) instead. If you want to be able to hit someone twice instead of two people once, be a barbarian with Martial Study instead of a warblade.


And the tiefling has a level adjustment of +1. This (lower) resistance, an advantage of +2 on a stat, outsider type. That's it.

Lesser tiefling.

[true_shinken]

Otherworldly.
A regional, setting specific feat that usually requires crappy races to take. People just tend to forget about that.


The warblade isn't "catching up," he's picking up energy resistance in one of several ways. As mentioned, he has three extra maneuvers, so if you go that route he still comes out a feat or two ahead of the demon, and if you go the tiefling route he doesn't need to use feats at all.
If you go the tiefling route, you're also a level behind.


Look, you're focusing on one specific example when I mentioned other possibilities. There are multiple different ways to get multiple attacks at level 1 with no penalty, including Steel Wind and Whirling Frenzy+Pounce.
None of them are unrestricted like the claws. Steel Wind needs two different targets and needs to be reloaded once you use it. Whirling Frenzy is just once a day and has a to-hit penalty. Even a totemist's melds can be dispelled (and he does not get full base attack). The demon? All day long, anytime you want, no penalties, no restrictions.

There are multiple different ways to get DR and resistances at level 1, including Stone Bones and racial features. If you don't want to spend two feats on fire resistance 5+ and an extra maneuver, be a tiefling (or aasimar or...) instead.
...and be a level behind. Right.
There are regional feats that get resistance as well. Dwarf-only.
And nothing gets resistance 10, btw. It's still free and more powerful than anything you could use to replicate it at that level.


If you want to be able to hit someone twice instead of two people once, be a barbarian with Martial Study instead of a warblade.
And do it once a day, for one encounter only, with a -2 to hit. Right.


Lesser tiefling.
Lesser races are a DM's choice. Either all tieflings are lesser or not.

All you say just reiterate: you're easily getting an ability superior to anything that ever was published by WotC. That's the whole point of avoiding homebrew. I would never accept a class that hits faster and as hard as the heavy hitters in D&D. You want a new concept? Fine, let's work to get it. You want it to be more powerful than everything else in your area? Sorry, not in my game.

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: Re-opened. But lets keep it clean.

[Jayabalard]

I don't need to, because there are perfectly serviceable demonic homebrews that exist, and serve my purposes just fine.The reason he's asking for that is that it forces you to actually be specific about what you mean by "demon" instead of continuing with the that's "not a true scottsman demon arguments.

If there are serviceable homebrews that already do this, feel free to link to them, and give some indication of what makes you think "now, that's a demon". That'll work almost as well.

[Morph Bark]

I'm glad this got reopened. Now I can finally grab one of my posts here for a future homebrew thread!

[true_shinken]

If there are serviceable homebrews that already do this, feel free to link to them, and give some indication of what makes you think "now, that's a demon". That'll work almost as well.

I actually found a 'build your own outsider' class that looks somewhat balanced.

Unsurprisingly, you can't have everything the Demon class had. ^^

[PairO'Dice Lost]

stuff

On Otherworldy/Lesser Tiefling--yes, they're setting-specific, but (A) not actually tied to the setting like, say, dragonmarks would be and (B) as likely to be approved as homebrew if you're not in FR. And lesser races aren't an either/or thing, they're a variant just like UA's environmental races or the like.

On multiple attacks per round--Again, they don't work exactly the same, because if they worked exactly the same way there would be no need for the homebrew; Steel Wind in fact has an advantage (the fact that it's only a standard action) to counter the multiple-targets disadvantage, as you'll be as mobile as all the other non-iterative-using melee classes rather than the demon who's stuck in one place. Either way, the fact remains that you can get two attacks per round at level 1. Incidentally, in the case of the barbarian, you're not actually taking a net -2, as it's offset by the higher strength, and you can have multiple rages with the Extra Rage feat. And before you say "oh no, you're spending feats to keep up with the homebrew!" if you're anticipating more than 2-3 fights per day, you can go with the Steel Wind option, as terribly suboptimal as it may be, and only take Extra Rage if you absolutely need those extra attacks for many combats per day.


I actually found a 'build your own outsider' class that looks somewhat balanced.

Unsurprisingly, you can't have everything the Demon class had. ^^

Link?

[Beheld]

I actually found a 'build your own outsider' class that looks somewhat balanced.

Unsurprisingly, you can't have everything the Demon class had. ^^

I'll say exactly what I was going to say before this went on reprieve.

Your way of determining if something is balanced has consistently been to try to determine if you can get the same thing with WotC approved options.

Yes, if you define "Balanced" to be "Things that could be obtained at the same level via WotC options." Then the statement "No concept that is balanced needs material outside of WotC sources." is true, tautologically.

If on the other hand, you use some other form of balance, like "How it affects the game." then the Demon class is in no way unbalanced.

Take an actual playthrough of an actual level 1 character. Any character, on any playthrough, because it doesn't matter.

Now give that character Electrical Resistance 10.

What would the in game effect of that change be? In 95% of cases, the answer is "Nothing at all." In 4% of cases, the answer is "One time, someone cast shocking grasp."

That's it.

You made a big deal about how ER 10 is way too much because... you can't get it and all the other effects of the Demon class at level 1 using WotC approved material.

Yes, I know, that's the point. It's not unbalanced for the Demon class to have ER 10 at level 1. And it makes sense for Demons to be more resistant to electricity than non-Demons.

Resistances and immunities are not a balance problem if you have one, they only really effect balance at all if you manage to get them against multiple types. But WotC goes crazy and thinks they are worth way more than that.

And so they make Classes like Elemental Savant that lose a level of spellcasting in return for immunity to one element... when they actually could have just used the extra spells granted by that level of spellcasting to cast the spell "Energy Immunity" multiple times, and still been Immune all day every day.

If you look at the in game effects of a Demon in comparison to a Monk we see "He is about as durable" Same HP, maybe more from lack of MAD, but less AC and DR 1, and a minor resistance.
"He hits slightly harder" No -2 penalty and full bab means net +3 when attacking in place, net +1 when attacking after moving.

Now, take a Monk, give it full BAB, give it no flurry penalty.

Is what you have there a super broken level 1 character? Or is what you have there another level 1 melee character that hits less well than a THF Barbarian on a charge, but still has lower AC?


Link?

I assume he means this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77010&highlight=Outsider+class). Of course, Ironically, this class has much better AC than the Demon, and the only things it lacks is attacking twice, and ER 10.

[JaronK]

"Balanced" means it's of the same power level as existing options. So yes, it's balanced if it has the same power as appropriate WotC options. WotC of course has many different balance points to work with due to the wide variety of power within WotC classes.

JaronK

[Koury]

WotC of course has many different balance points to work with due to the wide variety of power within WotC classes.

JaronK

When you say "WotC classes," are you refering to base classes, or standard classes? :smallamused:

[Beheld]

"Balanced" means it's of the same power level as existing options. So yes, it's balanced if it has the same power as appropriate WotC options. WotC of course has many different balance points to work with due to the wide variety of power within WotC classes.

But he's not talking about being the same power level, he's talking about being duplicatable.

It doesn't matter if two natural attacks is the same power level as a Monk with Decisive Strike or a Barbarians charge or less powerful than a Wizard Color Spraying, it only matters that it's not identical.

Likewise, ER 10 at level 1 is not more powerful than Evasion, in fact, it's much less, but the fact that other classes get Evasion isn't enough to make ER 10 okay, they have to actually have ER 10 exactly for ER 10 to be balanced.

[Zaydos]

Note how I didn't care about the electricity resistance except as another benefit on a long list of ones. The reliable 2 attacks per round is disturbing though. A monk with flurry penalties and +3 Strength has a 57% chance of killing an orc, or a 45% not flurrying. A fighter or barbarian has a 50%. The fiend you suggested has a 75%.

That's a significant difference.

Warblade comes closest and still does it worse over all. So being better than the best melee !/= balanced.

Getting the second attack at 3rd level even would be far more balanced, as it isn't a +50% kill rate any longer.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Note how I didn't care about the electricity resistance except as another benefit on a long list of ones. The reliable 2 attacks per round is disturbing though. A monk with flurry penalties and +3 Strength has a 57% chance of killing an orc, or a 45% not flurrying. A fighter or barbarian has a 50%. The fiend you suggested has a 75%.

That's a significant difference.

Warblade comes closest and still does it worse over all. So being better than the best melee !/= balanced.

Getting the second attack at 3rd level even would be far more balanced, as it isn't a +50% kill rate any longer.

A demon with 18 Str and a 1d6 claw attack does less damage than a whirling frenzy barbarian with 18 Str while he's raging or a warblade with 18 Str against two targets, as the other will be wielding a heavier weapon (probably two-handing it as well) and has no net penalty. Even at 1st level, a monk is one of the weaker options; you shouldn't be benchmarking a homebrew class by it.

[Zaydos]

First level you're dealing with 4 to 5 hp on average enemies (CR 1/2 if fighting more than one); so damage doesn't matter as long as it's above that on a 1. Occasionally enemies meant for the whole party have more.

Now like I said even by 3rd level the extra attack is much less potent and it's only overpowering at 1st level. Something that delays gaining the second attack till 2nd level is much more balanced. Also note the math showed just how weak monk was, hence I also included better classes.

So your best is "it's as strong as the strongest melee" except the strongest melee can only go at its strongest 3 times per day even if they spend a feat (at which point we could spend the feat on Weapon Focus (a horribly suboptimal feat) and get a 84% kill rate (which shows just how bad weapon focus is since with 18 Str it was already at 79.75% kill rate).

[ArcanistSupreme]

A demon with 18 Str and a 1d6 claw attack does less damage than a whirling frenzy barbarian with 18 Str while he's raging or a warblade with 18 Str against two targets, as the other will be wielding a heavier weapon (probably two-handing it as well) and has no net penalty. Even at 1st level, a monk is one of the weaker options; you shouldn't be benchmarking a homebrew class by it.

Plus, don't forget a razorclaw shifter with Improved Natural Attack. That would be exactly the same thing, and it already exists.

[Zaydos]

Plus, don't forget a razorclaw shifter with Improved Natural Attack. That would be exactly the same thing, and it already exists.

Now that's a better argument, but razorclaw shifter is also limited in daily uses and Improved Natural Attack isn't available till 4th level at the earliest. Although note that you don't need more than 1+Str at 1st level except when dealing with enemies above 1/2 CR for a 1 hit kill; at which point the party as a whole is supposed to be fighting them.

[Lhurgyof]

The Demon gets all those tasty SLA's too. Don't forget.

[Zaydos]

The Demon gets all those tasty SLA's too. Don't forget.

But not at 1st level. Which is the thing, as presented it could be turned into a workable class, but it wouldn't get most "demon" things at 1st level; also ironically of the SLAs it got 1 was from Dretch and the only thing it got that wasn't available from dretch was a Darkness SLA which without See in Darkness (a devil trait) is actually not a good strategy.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Now that's a better argument, but razorclaw shifter is also limited in daily uses and Improved Natural Attack isn't available till 4th level at the earliest. Although note that you don't need more than 1+Str at 1st level except when dealing with enemies above 1/2 CR for a 1 hit kill; at which point the party as a whole is supposed to be fighting them.

Dang, I always miss the prerequisites. Still, how much of a difference does having lower average damage by 1 make?


The Demon gets all those tasty SLA's too. Don't forget.

That's pretty dependent on the SLAs. Teleport isn't broken at all when acquired at the appropriate level, and don't forget, gnomes have SLAs too. :smallbiggrin:

[Lhurgyof]

Dang, I always miss the prerequisites. Still, how much of a difference does having lower average damage by 1 make?



That's pretty dependent on the SLAs. Teleport isn't broken at all when acquired at the appropriate level, and don't forget, gnomes have SLAs too. :smallbiggrin:

But everyone knows how broken gnomes are. :smalltongue:

[Zaydos]

Dang, I always miss the prerequisites. Still, how much of a difference does having lower average damage by 1 make?

Like I said that 1 point of damage doesn't matter at all, if you're dropping an orc on a 1. The whole lasts only 1 encounter per day part does.




That's pretty dependent on the SLAs. Teleport isn't broken at all when acquired at the appropriate level, and don't forget, gnomes have SLAs too. :smallbiggrin:

And that's the thing here, getting 2 attacks without a penalty or limited daily uses is a significant power boost at 1st level. Obtained at the right level (3+) it's perfectly balanced. The fiend Beheld presented was a bad example, and shouldn't be defended as a good one. That said one bad, but salvageable, example is not a reason to condemn homebrew as a whole.

Edit:

But everyone knows how broken gnomes are. :smalltongue:

Only with Races of Stone stupid Shadowcraft Gnomes.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So your best is "it's as strong as the strongest melee" except the strongest melee can only go at its strongest 3 times per day even if they spend a feat (at which point we could spend the feat on Weapon Focus (a horribly suboptimal feat) and get a 84% kill rate (which shows just how bad weapon focus is since with 18 Str it was already at 79.75% kill rate).

I've just been pointing out that the demon does not, in fact, drastically outshine the main melee bruisers as claimed. Overall damage output is roughly comparable even without rage and maneuvers, as 1d6+2*Str vs. 2d6+1.5*Str is, as pointed out, going to kill most anything at that level anyway. You're also ignoring non-damage capabilities such as utility maneuvers, better speed, better armor, more skills, and so forth.


The Demon gets all those tasty SLA's too. Don't forget.

At later levels, I believe, at which point the others have nice things too.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Like I said that 1 point of damage doesn't matter at all, if you're dropping an orc on a 1. The whole lasts only 1 encounter per day part does.

And that's the thing here, getting 2 attacks without a penalty or limited daily uses is a significant power boost at 1st level. Obtained at the right level (3+) it's perfectly balanced. The fiend Beheld presented was a bad example, and shouldn't be defended as a good one. That said one bad, but salvageable, example is not a reason to condemn homebrew as a whole.

My feelings about levels 1 and 2 are that they are essentially games of rocket tag anyway, so I don't think that being kind of powerful at level one is a huge deal if it evens out by level three. Heck, the druid's animal companion makes the druid even better in melee than this hypothetical demon class.

I'd be more concerned about the good saves across the board. Is there even any class other than the monk that gets this? (@Beheld-Keep in mind I'm not saying that the demon shouldn't have it because it's unique, but because it's pretty powerful)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'd be more concerned about the good saves across the board. Is there even any class other than the monk that gets this?

The favored soul. If a tier 2 can have all good saves....

[true_shinken]

On Otherworldy/Lesser Tiefling--yes, they're setting-specific, but (A) not actually tied to the setting like, say, dragonmarks would be and (B) as likely to be approved as homebrew if you're not in FR. And lesser races aren't an either/or thing, they're a variant just like UA's environmental races or the like.
Do you own Player's Guide to Faerun? If you do, then please read the relevant section. It explicitly says exactly what I stated earlier.


And before you say "oh no, you're spending feats to keep up with the homebrew!" if you're anticipating more than 2-3 fights per day, you can go with the Steel Wind option, as terribly suboptimal as it may be, and only take Extra Rage if you absolutely need those extra attacks for many combats per day.
If you are a Barbarian and you want Steel Wind, you need a feat as well. So... you are still spending a feat just to keep up with the homebrew.



Link?
I can't seem to find it again >.<
But it was here on the playground.


Plus, don't forget a razorclaw shifter with Improved Natural Attack. That would be exactly the same thing, and it already exists.
Improved Natural Attack requires base attack +4. So it's not exactly the same thing, no.




Yes, if you define "Balanced" to be "Things that could be obtained at the same level via WotC options." Then the statement "No concept that is balanced needs material outside of WotC sources." is true, tautologically.
But that's not what I'm saying. All I'm saying is two attacks at first level dealing that much damage is unheard of and will outshine Warblades and Barbarians. That is not balanced with'em, and they are the best at doing this in D&D.


If on the other hand, you use some other form of balance, like "How it affects the game." then the Demon class is in no way unbalanced.
I seriously doubt it. Remember we are just talking about the Demon class in vacuum. Lots of times we see mentions of feats the Warblade/Barbarian would take to be close to the Demon's prowess. Feats for the demon? We never got to those.
A human Demon could get two feats. Knowledge Devotion, Martial Stury, Shape Soulmeld. That would increase the gap even more.


Now give that character Electrical Resistance 10.

What would the in game effect of that change be? In 95% of cases, the answer is "Nothing at all." In 4% of cases, the answer is "One time, someone cast shocking grasp."
In my games, we usually have a lot more energy damage - be it from dragoncrafted weapons, elemental augment crystals, monsters (the Shocker Lizard is even presented in the introductory adventure for 3.0) or other effects (Incarnate's get a lightning touch as well).
However, except for the shocker lizard, energy resistance 5 would have almost the same effect as 10.
So it's not really that big of a deal, I give you that. A class that got energy resistance 10 as an ability at first is not broken or anything.
But if you get (something no one else gets, so it's already special) and also outperform everyone else in melee, well, that's too much, don't you think?


And it makes sense for Demons to be more resistant to electricity than non-Demons.
Sure does, and energy resistance 5 covers that. It even allows you to cover demon's other energy resistances. Say, resist electricity 5 and fire 5.


And so they make Classes like Elemental Savant that lose a level of spellcasting in return for immunity to one element... when they actually could have just used the extra spells granted by that level of spellcasting to cast the spell "Energy Immunity" multiple times, and still been Immune all day every day.
I think it's more of a problem of the spell existing, actually. But that's beside the point.



Is what you have there a super broken level 1 character?
I never said it's 'super broken'. I just said it's a lot better than what we already have. And it is. And I don't think it even needs to be.


I assume he means this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77010&highlight=Outsider+class). Of course, Ironically, this class has much better AC than the Demon, and the only things it lacks is attacking twice, and ER 10.
It's also a racial class and that's a big deal.




Likewise, ER 10 at level 1 is not more powerful than Evasion, in fact, it's much less, but the fact that other classes get Evasion isn't enough to make ER 10 okay, they have to actually have ER 10 exactly for ER 10 to be balanced.
No class gets evasion at first level, you know.

[GoatToucher]

I think this illustrates an issue that can be a major factor to the way people generally respond to homebrews: I like my DnD. If you have a revised core class you want people to look at, I am interested. You want to restructure racial benefits or the high level arcane spell list, I'll give it a read, if only as a philosophical exercise. We're looking at the game that I like playing and have liked playing for nearly thirty years and working to make it better.

What turns me, and alot of other people off is when people start putting their own personal spin on the game. I see this more often than not in homebrew races. When you start to see the furry/anthro races in there, or the undead races, or the celestial half dragon psionicist races, you start to severely undermine the core feel of the game, in my opinion, and it becomes really easy to dismiss the homebrewer as a fanboy/girl looking to shoehorn his or her preferred trope into the Tolkein based world of DnD. If that is your thing, more power to you, but it is decidedly not the thing of most people who play, which explains, I think, why alot of people get turned off by homebrew in general, no matter how balanced you think your systems may be.

I like DnD. If you want to make DnD better, I am all ears. If you want to make DnD reflect your own preferences, good luck to you in all your endeavors, but don't be surprised/outraged when people don't take you seriously.

[Zaydos]

Druids are also the most easily broken class in core and not a good balance point; you have to try to break a wizard, you don't have to try with a druid. And actually a 1st level wolf only has a +3 to hit, if the druid focuses on melee he can get a +4 by putting an 18 in Str; at which point if he's flanking he has a better chance of killing that one enemy. He's still better in total because of his ability to divide up and kill 2 distantly separated enemies at once.

Also 1st level utility maneuvers are pretty slim pickings.

[Beheld]

Zaydos, you are missing the key limitation, at level 1, you have to be standing adjacent to two alive enemies at the same time at the beginning of your turn before you can outdo the barbarian at all.

On the other hand, the Barbarian can outdo you every single round that is not the case. Or equal you, but with more HP and better AC.

Having two attacks on a full attack at level 1 is not impressive, because level 1 is the only level where you are never going to be getting any full attacks anyway.

See my question about a Monk with full BAB and no flurry penalty "Great Class, or Greatest class" or still a melee character with fewer HP, worse AC, and less damage than a barbarian.

[ArcanistSupreme]

The favored soul. If a tier 2 can have all good saves....

I'm going to start reading the rules at some point, I swear. But saying that "because a tier 2 has it it's okay" isn't a perfect argument. That's probably a (admittedly small) part of what makes it a tier 2. It just feels wrong to me, although if there is evidence that it isn't that big a deal I could accept it.


Druids are also the most easily broken class in core and not a good balance point; you have to try to break a wizard, you don't have to try with a druid. And actually a 1st level wolf only has a +3 to hit, if the druid focuses on melee he can get a +4 by putting an 18 in Str; at which point if he's flanking he has a better chance of killing that one enemy. He's still better in total because of his ability to divide up and kill 2 distantly separated enemies at once.

Also 1st level utility maneuvers are pretty slim pickings.

True, but at this point the Druid is only using one really good class feature rather than three. I think it's actually okay at low levels, but maybe that's because it's one of the few classes that can reliably survive them. I don't feel that low levels are easy to balance around because of how lethal they are, and my general philosophy is that as long as they are close it's okay. Is it a bad design to give something the low-level staying power of a Druid just because most classes don't have it?

Sure, those extra attacks are great now, but what about at level 5? How about level 10? It doesn't scale very well with level, and if it's balanced by level 3 (the point at which the game generally stops being rocket tag for a little while) I don't see much of a problem.

[JaronK]

When you say "WotC classes," are you refering to base classes, or standard classes? :smallamused:

I mean classes entirely. A homebrew PrC must be balanced to WotC PrCs, which are neither character classes nor base classes!

JaronK

[Zaydos]

Or you could delay it till level 2 or 3; or not give them DR and ER all good saves, rogue skills, and full BAB at 1st level too.

[Lord_Gareth]

That statement is...honestly, kinda laughable. I balance my 'brew material to how games actually run. WotC's classes run the gamut from the hilariously useless (ronin, anyone?) to the frighteningly broken (incantatrix for the lose!). Why should I shackle myself to the pillar of their idiocy?

[arguskos]

That statement is...honestly, kinda laughable. I balance my 'brew material to how games actually run. WotC's classes run the gamut from the hilariously useless (ronin, anyone?) to the frighteningly broken (incantatrix for the lose!). Why should I shackle myself to the pillar of their idiocy?
Actually, their one class feature isn't terrible. Banzai Charge is kinda decent. It's just shackled to that god awful class. :smallsigh:

[Lord_Gareth]

Actually, their one class feature isn't terrible. Banzai Charge is kinda decent. It's just shackled to that god awful class. :smallsigh:

My case - I rest it.

[true_shinken]

Why should I shackle myself to the pillar of their idiocy?
If eveything WotC is so idiot, if the design is so bad, if only you can do it right... why don't you make your own game? Why shackle yourself to the pillars of idiocy on which D&D 3.5 stands?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Do you own Player's Guide to Faerun? If you do, then please read the relevant section. It explicitly says exactly what I stated earlier.

My bad; the online compendia have it listed as a normal variant.


If you are a Barbarian and you want Steel Wind, you need a feat as well. So... you are still spending a feat just to keep up with the homebrew.

Or, y'know, you can just use whirling frenzy. Exactly what I stated earlier.

I will repeat myself once again: These are possibilities, not the only builds. The original claim was "Two attacks with no penalty at 1st level is too good!" and I and others have shown at least three ways to get those attacks, irrespective of any other features, yet you continue to say "Oh, you need to keep up with the homebrew!" or "They're not exactly the same!"


I'm going to start reading the rules at some point, I swear. But saying that "because a tier 2 has it it's okay" isn't a perfect argument. That's probably a (admittedly small) part of what makes it a tier 2. It just feels wrong to me, although if there is evidence that it isn't that big a deal I could accept it.

It's not at all an argument, I'm just pointing out (sarcastically, I admit) that all good saves isn't a super special monk feature, it's something a full caster can get on top of everything else, just like electricity resistance isn't an awesome defensive feature but rather a minor perk.

[Lord_Gareth]

If eveything WotC is so idiot, if the design is so bad, if only you can do it right... why don't you make your own game? Why shackle yourself to the pillars of idiocy on which D&D 3.5 stands?

Because not EVERYTHING is bad - just their standard of design for power levels. Look, WotC came up with a lotta good ideas for a heroic fantasy game - they just failed to take into account, well, ANY of the consequences for introducing their classes as-written. So when it comes to power level, I'll keep my own counsel, but the system itself is thoroughly redeemable.

[true_shinken]

I will repeat myself once again: These are possibilities, not the only builds. The original claim was "Two attacks with no penalty at 1st level is too good!" and I and others have shown at least three ways to get those attacks, irrespective of any other features, yet you continue to say "Oh, you need to keep up with the homebrew!" or "They're not exactly the same!"
You misunderstand me. It's not that they are not exactly the same - it's that they are worse. The homebrew is slightly better than anything you presented to balance it against, which in my book means it's a bit too much.
Whirling Frenzy? It's just once a day. You are even fatigued afterwards. Your actions are limited while you use it.
Steel Wind? Only every other round, can't target the same foe with both attacks. There are situations where Steel Wind will be more useful, since you can move more than 5 feet before doing the attacks though. Against, say, two orcs, the Warblade would probably perform better. Against a boss-type encounter, the Demon is miles ahead, and I think that's really important.


Because not EVERYTHING is bad - just their standard of design for power levels. Look, WotC came up with a lotta good ideas for a heroic fantasy game - they just failed to take into account, well, ANY of the consequences for introducing their classes as-written. So when it comes to power level, I'll keep my own counsel, but the system itself is thoroughly redeemable.
I think it's a lot easier to compare to what we know is reasonably balanced - those cases were WotC actually got it right. Then again, it's your homebrew, not mine.

[Lord_Gareth]

See, I usually do. But a lot of them - like Tome of Battle - are controversial ("OMG WUxIa in D&D! NERDRAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!") or there's arguments about their balance levels (psionics) that make it hard to say you're actually balancing to this power level or another. Hence simply doing my own thing.

[true_shinken]

See, I usually do. But a lot of them - like Tome of Battle - are controversial ("OMG WUxIa in D&D! NERDRAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!") or there's arguments about their balance levels (psionics) that make it hard to say you're actually balancing to this power level or another. Hence simply doing my own thing.

Like I said, it's your homebrew and you should do it the way you feel it's better.
I just find that ToB and psionics are probably the most balanced things in D&D (incarnum is close). The problems you mentioned are just a) fluff and b) people who don't actually know the rules. So, yeah.

[dsmiles]

the system itself is thoroughly redeemable.

Debatable. I had long given up on WotC when 4e came out and surprised me with it's more balanced classes. There was a couple of years there where I played only Rolemaster/HARP simply because WotC couldn't get its collective head out of its collective rear.
Now, if you're referring to d20 in general, yes, it's redeemable. WotC 3.0/3.5 DnD? I'd have to go with "not just no, but hell no." WotC screwed the pooch when it came to their first swag at writing DnD, and didn't improve it much with their second try. (Their third try is acceptable, and their fourth try? We'll see, but fortunately Essentials isn't a re-write, it's an option. So if it sucks, I'll never have to see it again. If they released it as a re-write, however, and it sucks, it'd be back to RM for me. But that's not where this was going.)
Anyway, when did this devolve from a homebrew rant in general to a specific homebrew class rant? I must have missed it. :smallconfused:

[Fax Celestis]

A demon with 18 Str and a 1d6 claw attack does less damage than a whirling frenzy barbarian with 18 Str while he's raging or a warblade with 18 Str against two targets, as the other will be wielding a heavier weapon (probably two-handing it as well) and has no net penalty. Even at 1st level, a monk is one of the weaker options; you shouldn't be benchmarking a homebrew class by it.
Totemist gets claw attacks starting at 1. A skarn totemist 2 with Str 16, binding Girallon Arms to his totem chakra and taking Multiattack has an attack routine that looks like claw +4/claw +4/claw +4/claw +4/spine +2/spine +2. They all deal d4 + Str.

Natural attacks' value should be measured in GP, not in XP, considering they mimic things purchased, not things earned.

[Esser-Z]

Totemist gets claw attacks starting at 1. A skarn totemist 2 with Str 16, binding Girallon Arms to his totem chakra and taking Multiattack has an attack routine that looks like claw +4/claw +4/claw +4/claw +4/spine +2/spine +2. They all deal d4 + Str.


And then they find a way to stop being humanoid and go Soul Eater.

[Tyndmyr]

I've just been pointing out that the demon does not, in fact, drastically outshine the main melee bruisers as claimed. Overall damage output is roughly comparable even without rage and maneuvers, as 1d6+2*Str vs. 2d6+1.5*Str is, as pointed out, going to kill most anything at that level anyway. You're also ignoring non-damage capabilities such as utility maneuvers, better speed, better armor, more skills, and so forth.

Damage output is only relevant to the instant kill level. At that point, reliability of the attack takes over. This is the same logic that lead to the creation of the mailman as an idealized blaster. Multiple attacks at full BaB are fairly inaccessible at level 1, and represent a much higher probability of getting a hit. Therefore, it translates to a rather concrete advantage once you're over the threshold of "I hit, it drops".

I agree that grtr teleport is not at all unbalanced at the level you get it. However, this doesn't mean it's balanced at lower levels too. In the case of the level six example, greater teleport is not typically accessible at that level, nor are other, comparable powers that allow long range movement. Therefore, most modules are not designed with it in mind, and it requires a significant adjustment on the part of the DM.

It's not so much that any one thing is bad because it's different, but that the whole package is not level appropriate.


As someone pointed out earlier, D&D 3.5 has it's flaws...we all know of plenty. But, if you want to check the power level of something, a quick google search will be quite informative. If the top posts all reference "cheese" or "exploit", you need not even read them to know that it's probably considered a pretty decent option, at minimum. So, it requires relatively little effort to use and allow even unfamiliar first party material(though some DMs also choose to limit that). The balance levels of homebrew are less obvious, and opinions being what they are...your opinion of the balance will frequently differ from that of the author, or the player. That's generally not an enjoyable conversation.

[Quincunx]

At this point in the discussion, my question has boiled down to "Will allowing homebrew open up the possibility of slogging through another dozen pages of this, only now I must participate in the exchange as well?". I do regard it as a slog, so if that question's answer is Yes, then the question of whether homebrew is allowed is answered No (and if the questioner interprets it as a Maybe, gets another, more hateful, grouchy No Means No). I see that there are many people who have enjoyed this discussion and would enjoy bartering the homebrews' powers, but that joy isn't universal.

[Fax Celestis]

At this point in the discussion, my question has boiled down to "Will allowing homebrew open up the possibility of slogging through another dozen pages of this, only now I must participate in the exchange as well?". I do regard it as a slog, so if that question's answer is Yes, then the question of whether homebrew is allowed is answered No (and if the questioner interprets it as a Maybe, gets another, more hateful, grouchy No Means No). I see that there are many people who have enjoyed this discussion and would enjoy bartering the homebrews' powers, but that joy isn't universal.

What, then, is the difference between WotC material and homebrew that makes one a slog and the other not?

[Tyndmyr]

Because allowing first party stuff is easy. The books are decently laid out, in a fairly readable format. Some homebrew is also, but by no means all.

And once you learn first party stuff, it is generally applicable. ToB, once learned, will be of use in a number of games, even if the participants are generally different. Lots of people have ToB, and know how to use it. The same is not true of any given piece of homebrew.

[Fax Celestis]

That still does not explain why one is a chore to read while the other isn't. Is it a chore to read a module you will run once and likely never run again?

[ArcanistSupreme]

I agree that grtr teleport is not at all unbalanced at the level you get it. However, this doesn't mean it's balanced at lower levels too. In the case of the level six example, greater teleport is not typically accessible at that level, nor are other, comparable powers that allow long range movement. Therefore, most modules are not designed with it in mind, and it requires a significant adjustment on the part of the DM.

It's not so much that any one thing is bad because it's different, but that the whole package is not level appropriate.

That's a fair point that I never really considered. I suppose that even changing it to teleport would still be too much at levels 6-8. It wouldn't, however, change games with DMs that say "you travel for a week and then arrive at your destination" too much, but relying on specific DM allowances for class balance is never a great idea.

[Ignition]

I think the point is, going through rules is slog, period. I can't even justify "WotC's stuff is at least professionally developed and has a higher standard of quality" with a straight face. :smallwink: The less downtime between making characters and playing the game, the better.

To be honest, though, there's not a whole lot homebrew can do other than spackle a breaking dam, when it comes to fixing the problems with 3.5e. You may as well create whatever you're going to create without leaning on 3.5 as 'inspiration', since whatever structure you find there will inevitably break. The days of the print RPG as holy unassailable relic are over.

[Tyndmyr]

That still does not explain why one is a chore to read while the other isn't. Is it a chore to read a module you will run once and likely never run again?

Depends on the person, I guess. I consider most homebrew to be a chore, as a consequence of the poor quality. This attitude extends to some professionally published RPG works as well. Well made homebrew is not a chore for me to read, but digging through the drek to get there is.

Some people might consider all rules reading to be a chore, and thus, usually do the minimum to play the game. Probably core, and don't purchase modules. In my experience, a fair proportion of people are like this, and prefer to minimize pre-game preparation.

[Fax Celestis]

To be honest, though, there's not a whole lot homebrew can do other than spackle a breaking dam, when it comes to fixing the problems with 3.5e. You may as well create whatever you're going to create without leaning on 3.5 as 'inspiration', since whatever structure you find there will inevitably break. The days of the print RPG as holy unassailable relic are over.

I disagree with this pretty fundamentally. As long as you are willing to change everything and anything that you need to, the fundamental chassis (1d20+modifiers, HP, classes, prestige classes, feats, and skills) is pretty sound.

[Tyndmyr]

I disagree with this pretty fundamentally. As long as you are willing to change everything and anything that you need to, the fundamental chassis (1d20+modifiers, HP, classes, prestige classes, feats, and skills) is pretty sound.

While I agree with this, this is so far into the fundamentals that you could as easily be describing D20 modern as D&D. Once you're at that level, is it still really the same game? Sure, elements remain familiar between the two, but it'd be a stretch to consider them the same.

[Fax Celestis]

People tend to think that Pathfinder and d20r and CRE8 are still D&D even though they change quite a bit of it.

[DragoonWraith]

Depends on the person, I guess. I consider most homebrew to be a chore, as a consequence of the poor quality. This attitude extends to some professionally published RPG works as well. Well made homebrew is not a chore for me to read, but digging through the drek to get there is.
So don't; let your players do that part. Sure, there's a very large amount of poor homebrew out there, but how much of it are you, as a DM, going to get linked to? You could even include a line "do not link me to any homebrew that is not, at the very least, formatted properly and spelling-and-grammar checked," if you felt the need to actively discourage it (though really I have a hard time imagining a player seriously linking to something that's a complete mess). Sure, why should you have to sift through and find the diamonds in the rough? But that's also no reason to stop someone else from doing so, if they wish, nor is it a good reason to deny access to any diamonds.

[Tyndmyr]

So don't; let your players do that part. Sure, there's a very large amount of poor homebrew out there, but how much of it are you, as a DM, going to get linked to? You could even include a line "do not link me to any homebrew that is not, at the very least, formatted properly and spelling-and-grammar checked," if you felt the need to actively discourage it (though really I have a hard time imagining a player seriously linking to something that's a complete mess). Sure, why should you have to sift through and find the diamonds in the rough? But that's also no reason to stop someone else from doing so, if they wish, nor is it a good reason to deny access to any diamonds.

Because they bring me homebrew that is a mess, when this is in play. Half of which is written by them. And, being written by them, they are not aware that it is a mess, either in formatting, or balance-wise. So, I still end up dredging through muck, and now players have expectations of getting to use some of it.



Eh, Pathfinder is more similar to 3.5 than other things, like 4e...but Im not sure if it's the same game. It's a fuzzy line, to be sure, but there are differences. It does inherit some of the same old problems of 3.5, though, such as the class balance issues(albeit slightly tweaked). I can certainly see the justification for saying that at a given point of homebrewing, you are effectively playing a new and different game. What exact point this is, I don't know, but games like D20 modern and D&D are different games, despite sharing some mechanics.

[Ignition]

I disagree with this pretty fundamentally. As long as you are willing to change everything and anything that you need to, the fundamental chassis (1d20+modifiers, HP, classes, prestige classes, feats, and skills) is pretty sound.

So the problem is execution, not concept? That's fine, I guess, but as presented - or homebrewed - to spackle the dam, 3.5 doesn't work as simply and easily as other systems I've tried. Granted it's not as bad as others - RIFTS comes to mind, and then immediately beat out with a shoe :smallwink: - but it's still not great.

I'd much rather lean on a Jared Sorensen style mechanic than a d20 one, were I to design an RPG. But this is all less about mechanics, and more about product lines; even if the d20 concept itself is fine, the D&D product line, regardless of the level of alteration, is glitchy at best. For some of us, that glitchiness is less jarring than others of us, and we can accept some glitches over others (except for perfectionists, and who cares about them :smallwink: ), and some of us don't even notice the glitches because it never comes up - thanks either to houseruling or homebrewing or whatever works for the individual group. Either way, my time and money is better spent avoiding d20 - even its homebrewed content - except for its concepts and flavor.

But this could just be reactionary "Everyone uses it, it can't be good" stuff :smallwink: . I guess what it comes down to, Homebrew is less of a problem for me than what that homebrew uses as its core.

Also, before this gets taken out of context as "WELL THAT'S JUST YOU", well... yes, it is just me. You want me to speak for everyone? Hah! Good luck with that! :smallwink:

[Quincunx]

What, then, is the difference between WotC material and homebrew that makes one a slog and the other not?

Should've checked back on this last night, sorry.

In short it's authority, and dealing with people, not the gameplay material. It's easier to enforce a ruling when I can point to the outside authority of the publisher and say, "If they didn't approve it, I don't approve it". If there's going to be haggling between the player and DM where one person is bound to lose, I'd rather that it's during the course of the game and for the sake of the 'show', not the 'backstage'. I say 'lose' because if there was going to be a win-win compromise on character creation, it would probably have taken a form like those rejected "build my homebrew concept using published 3.5 classes" characters. The more losses I can shunt off of my shoulders and onto a publisher's (or the dice), the better--I'm not wasting DM authority and energy on them and instead saving it for the 'show' part of the game. Loss is draining for either of us, player or DM.

You personally have some authority as a homebrewer, the respect of this board; you'd be on that list of Homebrews from These Authors Only some person mentioned several pages ago. In a PbP on this board, that might grant enough authority to allow or deny homebrew without an argument. Elsewhere though, does your name carry the same clout as a publisher's?

. . .The most annoying part of all this is that I don't see a way for you to change it short of the traditional route of being published and gaining authority for me, the DM, to borrow--although assembling that entire wiki might substitute, if the players are used to RPG e-books with no analogue, which I'm not. No homebrewed template can reach into my head and double my capacity for OOC negotiation. . .

. . .completely off-topic, but a primer on how to check a homebrew for balance, to help eliminate the problem of the DM who has no confidence in running the numbers, published alongside the homebrew might help insert it into the games of the numbers-shy. You'd have to find one and ask if it would be used, though.

[Tyndmyr]

. . .The most annoying part of all this is that I don't see a way for you to change it short of the traditional route of being published and gaining authority for me, the DM, to borrow--although assembling that entire wiki might substitute, if the players are used to RPG e-books with no analogue, which I'm not. No homebrewed template can reach into my head and double my capacity for OOC negotiation. . .

Being published is not at all difficult nowadays. The hard part is creating all the content, and formatting it in a nice, easy to read fashion. If you've gotten to the point of a functional PDF, going the next step into print can be done rather easily.

[true_shinken]

Being published is not at all difficult nowadays. The hard part is creating all the content, and formatting it in a nice, easy to read fashion. If you've gotten to the point of a functional PDF, going the next step into print can be done rather easily.

Of course, if you get printed by a company like WotC, Paizo or Green Ronin, people will actually care.

[Melayl]

WoTC basically encourages homebrewing, going so far as to put in sidebars in the DMG to show you how they did what they did:

Behind the Curtain: Some sidebars provide a further explanation of why the rules are the way they are -- a look "behind the curtain" into how the game's designers make decisions about the rules. If you're the sort of DM who likes to tinker with the rules of the D&D game, these sidebars offer some advice and inspiration as you customise the game for yourself and your players.

I can't say if homebrew is any better or worse that what's published, but it is better for those that use it (otherwise they wouldn't use it).

If you don't want to use homebrew, that's fine. But I've seen folks saying that homebrew isn't D&D, which I disagree with. We're just playing a slightly different version. After all, 1st Ed, AD&D, 3.0, 3.5, and 4E are all D&D. Pathfinder is still basically D&D.

All of the published material is just somebody else's homebrew that we're paying to use, in my opinion.

[Zaydos]

2e and earlier suggested homebrew as the main option. Even the 3.5 DMG suggests homebrewing variant classes, subraces, PrCs, and the 3.5 MM has guidelines for creating homebrewed monsters; because that was the name of the game.

[Jayabalard]

Your way of determining if something is balanced has consistently been to try to determine if you can get the same thing with WotC approved options.I'm not sure who you're talking to... I've not even gotten to the talking about balance part yet. Your argument was that it can't be done without home brew: "any sort of playable demon is impossible." and I've yet to see you deviate from a "no true scottsman" argument.