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View Full Version : Your Favorite Mid-Level Warblade Maneuvers?



Black_Zawisza
2010-09-29, 07:48 PM
I know what maneuvers I'm going to pick for Levels 1-3 and 9, but I'm unfamiliar with everything in between. If it helps, I'm a greatsword-wielding Ubercharger, and I'm not planning on multiclassing.

Thanks, guys!

EDIT: By 1-3 and 9, I mean maneuver levels.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-29, 07:49 PM
Raging Moongoose is great even on a normal attack routine.... Diamond Nightmare blade has it uses I am not familiar with White Raven or Stone dragons strikes, so I don't know what to say about them

Eldariel
2010-09-29, 07:53 PM
Lightning Recovery is excellent. Quicksilver Motion, Manticore Parry, Order Forged From Chaos, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Bounding Assault (if you do have Pounce from another source), Pouncing Charge (if you don't have Pounce from another source), War Leader's Charge & Diamond Defense would all be up there too.

AslanCross
2010-09-29, 09:40 PM
Finishing Move, Moment of Alacrity, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Raging Mongoose, Mithral Tornado and Adamantine Hurricane.

Also, Bounding Assault.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-29, 09:47 PM
Low levels: All the concentration-for-save maneuvers. Up to level 3 they're the shine of Diamond Mind. Higher level DM maneuvers reek of awesome though
<drools at avalanche, quicksilver, bounding assault and hearing the air>
Tiger Claw's Sudden Leap, Hunter's Sense and Blood in the Water are all great too.
Iron Heart, up to level 3, is basically "Iron Heart Surge + a few handy tricks".
White Raven follows a similar outline with White Raven Tactics.

The level 9 maneuvers? Time Stands Still, Mountain Tombstone Strike and either War Master Charge or Feral Death Blow. WMC outperforms FDB in all but solo fights though. (I don't remember how many 9s a warblade can get)

Eldariel
2010-09-29, 09:47 PM
Moment of Alacrity

Forgot that. Seconded and thirded. And fourthed.

Chen
2010-09-30, 07:47 AM
Forgot that. Seconded and thirded. And fourthed.

Am I missing something about moment of alacrity? Doesn't it only really do anything if you act after your opponents? Considering the limited number of readied maneuvers a warblade gets I find it hard to justify this one.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-30, 07:53 AM
Am I missing something about moment of alacrity? Doesn't it only really do anything if you act after your opponents? Considering the limited number of readied maneuvers a warblade gets I find it hard to justify this one.

"Doesn't improved initiative only help if you roll less than your enemies?"
+20 to initiative is huge. You can use it to save face from a low roll. You can use it with white raven tactics to make an ally with bad Initiative to act early.

Chen
2010-09-30, 08:22 AM
"Doesn't improved initiative only help if you roll less than your enemies?"
+20 to initiative is huge. You can use it to save face from a low roll. You can use it with white raven tactics to make an ally with bad Initiative to act early.

Doesn't it only provide +20 initiative after you've rolled initiative and acted (to use the maneuver)?

Improved initiative grants you the chance to start off higher. Once combat has begun, if you're already before the opponents this one does nothing. If you're after the opponents it does let you take two turns in a row (effectively) which is the case I see it as useful (for nova purposes). Assuming an equal chance at beating the opponent's initiative it seems like a poor choice to maneuver to ready when it won't be of use 50% of the time.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-30, 08:25 AM
Doesn't it only provide +20 initiative after you've rolled initiative and acted (to use the maneuver)?

Improved initiative grants you the chance to start off higher. Once combat has begun, if you're already before the opponents this one does nothing. If you're after the opponents it does let you take two turns in a row (effectively) which is the case I see it as useful (for nova purposes). Assuming an equal chance at beating the opponent's initiative it seems like a poor choice to maneuver to ready when it won't be of use 50% of the time.

yes, you'll still act slow on the first round. But it's still getting to act first. When you use it and your initiative surpasses your enemy's, this means you can get 2 rounds in a row of action. It's not MORE actions, but it still allows you to setup your actions for the next round without fearing retaliation. And you can still use it to pull another person into your round.

Chen
2010-09-30, 08:35 AM
yes, you'll still act slow on the first round. But it's still getting to act first. When you use it and your initiative surpasses your enemy's, this means you can get 2 rounds in a row of action. It's not MORE actions, but it still allows you to setup your actions for the next round without fearing retaliation. And you can still use it to pull another person into your round.

Thats exactly what I said. If you act after the enemies you can use this for 2 turns in a row. I suppose you could also delay, and then use it to get two turns in a row again at a later time in combat. That doesn't seem terribly good though.

The overall point was that this is useful in the case you roll below the enemy on initiative and is a wasted maneuver if you beat them on initiative barring any type of delaying actions. The pulling another person to your initiative thing could be useful if both people are after the opponents, but that takes 2 rounds to accomplish plus white raven tactics is generally better used on someone who has already acted (or yourself so you act twice, but I hate that ruling about White Raven Tactics) to give them EXTRA actions.

Eldariel
2010-09-30, 09:36 AM
Thats exactly what I said. If you act after the enemies you can use this for 2 turns in a row. I suppose you could also delay, and then use it to get two turns in a row again at a later time in combat. That doesn't seem terribly good though.

I'll say this: There's been multiple iterations of a gestalt warrior arena on these forums. One of the reasons I've been undefeated in multiples of them is that Moment of Alacrity > Belt of Battle allows you to take three consecutive full round actions, which is enough to generally kill anyone provided you're slightly optimized.

If I went first, I simply burrow underground or go somewhere else safe and delay. Or in general, take the time to delay when given the chance (like opponent doing something ineffectual). The ability to take an extra full round action, even if it means you need to go second, is huge. Two turns in a row is way, way more powerful than one turn, enemy, one turn; you can use it to setup some full-round actions that are hard to pull off otherwise, and with follow-ups too. E.g. Bounding Assault (with Pounce - Pouncing Charge otherwise) > Moment of Alacrity > Greater Divine Surge is a nice little nova that tends to lead to very dead opponents.

Chen
2010-09-30, 12:00 PM
I'll say this: There's been multiple iterations of a gestalt warrior arena on these forums. One of the reasons I've been undefeated in multiples of them is that Moment of Alacrity > Belt of Battle allows you to take three consecutive full round actions, which is enough to generally kill anyone provided you're slightly optimized.

If I went first, I simply burrow underground or go somewhere else safe and delay. Or in general, take the time to delay when given the chance (like opponent doing something ineffectual). The ability to take an extra full round action, even if it means you need to go second, is huge. Two turns in a row is way, way more powerful than one turn, enemy, one turn; you can use it to setup some full-round actions that are hard to pull off otherwise, and with follow-ups too. E.g. Bounding Assault (with Pounce - Pouncing Charge otherwise) > Moment of Alacrity > Greater Divine Surge is a nice little nova that tends to lead to very dead opponents.

In a one on one situation I'll concede its very effective (assuming you can delay safely or somehow otherwise negate the action you effectively give them to obtain your two turns in a row).

In normal group combat I suppose in shorter fights it could be more useful as well. You're likely only going to use the ability once per fight unless there's a lot of healing or movement going on. As such if you weren't going to run through your full maneuver list twice in the combat (say refreshing once) its probably not really a waste. In a combat where you're refreshing powers more frequently seems like it would be more beneficial to have an actual maneuver you will use more than once.

Susano-wo
2010-09-30, 01:27 PM
sorry, I have to ask.. Is there a ruling that allows White Raven Tactics on myself? My groups playes a much less party-structured campaign than is aparently usual, so there are plenty of times I may not have allies in a fight, and it would be fantastic to be able to get usage out of WRT.

(of course, that's if my DM would allow that ruling...

Snake-Aes
2010-09-30, 01:34 PM
sorry, I have to ask.. Is there a ruling that allows White Raven Tactics on myself? My groups playes a much less party-structured campaign than is aparently usual, so there are plenty of times I may not have allies in a fight, and it would be fantastic to be able to get usage out of WRT.

(of course, that's if my DM would allow that ruling...

"I am my own ally thus I can use it on myself".
Read: Deliberately ignoring the intent of the text so you can exploit it.

Susano-wo
2010-09-30, 01:53 PM
is Ally even defined in the rules though? If not (which I beleive is the case), then we'd have to go with, y'know, English.... >.>
Ah well. I had hoped I could exploit it in situations where I'm alone due to some Errata, etc. (WHen I'm with the group, I usually use it to allow the TWFer to wail upon our foe whilst directly opposite me :P)

Eldariel
2010-09-30, 04:05 PM
In a one on one situation I'll concede its very effective (assuming you can delay safely or somehow otherwise negate the action you effectively give them to obtain your two turns in a row).

The key is, opponent doesn't have a control over when you delay, so he cannot coordinate the two actions; as such you can after each of his actions gauge if you can delay or not; giving him a double turn at a time of your choice is much, much weaker than your ability to get a double turn at a time of your choice.


In normal group combat I suppose in shorter fights it could be more useful as well. You're likely only going to use the ability once per fight unless there's a lot of healing or movement going on. As such if you weren't going to run through your full maneuver list twice in the combat (say refreshing once) its probably not really a waste. In a combat where you're refreshing powers more frequently seems like it would be more beneficial to have an actual maneuver you will use more than once.

Well, it depends on how many you've got prepared. You only have so many actions so at a certain point, preparing a non-combat maneuver is just fine.

Runestar
2010-09-30, 06:39 PM
Am I missing something about moment of alacrity? Doesn't it only really do anything if you act after your opponents? Considering the limited number of readied maneuvers a warblade gets I find it hard to justify this one.

It can be used in tandem with adaptive style to let you swap in a custom list of maneuvers and effectively give you your full-round action back.

Basically, you delay to after your opponents to observe what they do, initiate moment of alacrity, adaptive style (swapping out moment of alacrity for a new set of more useful maneuvers), then start again (you should now be first in the initiative cycle). :smallsmile:


"I am my own ally thus I can use it on myself".
Read: Deliberately ignoring the intent of the text so you can exploit it.

Well, in the bard's entry, :smalltongue:


Inspire Courage (Su)

A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities.

Draz74
2010-09-30, 09:42 PM
Moment of Alacrity is pretty cool in boss fights, especially with e.g. a Stormguard Warrior. With Avalanche of Blades. But in general, it's not a must-have maneuver, particularly for an Ubercharger type.

Top priority should go to Bounding Assault (if you already have Charge) or Pouncing Charge (if you don't), like Eldariel said. The White Raven strikes that add damage to a charge are pretty nasty, too, especially combo'd with Pounce.

Iron Heart Endurance is fun for an "I never run out of Hit Points" style. Swooping Dragon Strike is incredible for a character with max Jump ranks. At lower levels, Death from Above isn't a shabby use of your Jump check either.

EDIT: As for using White Raven Tactics on yourself: a strict reading of the rules says yes, you may. However, the FAQ (and the likely original intent of the writer, and any sane DM) say no.

Cespenar
2010-10-01, 12:09 AM
So, if you'd have an ally initiate White Raven Tactics on you, and you use your Moment of Alacrity after that, you can effectively get 3 turns?

Runestar
2010-10-01, 04:07 AM
So, if you'd have an ally initiate White Raven Tactics on you, and you use your Moment of Alacrity after that, you can effectively get 3 turns?

Only if you went last in the initiative order.

Obviously, if you start first, moment of alacrity has no benefit. :smalltongue:

Chen
2010-10-01, 07:14 AM
EDIT: As for using White Raven Tactics on yourself: a strict reading of the rules says yes, you may. However, the FAQ (and the likely original intent of the writer, and any sane DM) say no.

Wasn't there an FAQ article that actually confirmed you COULD use it on yourself? Thats why I had said the ruling was absurd.

lsfreak
2010-10-01, 01:38 PM
Wasn't there an FAQ article that actually confirmed you COULD use it on yourself? Thats why I had said the ruling was absurd.

The problem is that "your allies" included you for all of 3.5, except apparently for ToB. You aren't counted as your own ally in 4e either, and with ToB being a testrun for 4e, I have a feeling they may have gotten terminology between editions mixed up in that one case.

Chen
2010-10-01, 01:59 PM
The problem is that "your allies" included you for all of 3.5, except apparently for ToB. You aren't counted as your own ally in 4e either, and with ToB being a testrun for 4e, I have a feeling they may have gotten terminology between editions mixed up in that one case.

Yeah that rule always seemed clunky in 4th since it means you're actually you're own enemy. But mechanically and for balance I can see why this they made it that way.

Eldariel
2010-10-01, 02:49 PM
Only if you went last in the initiative order.

Obviously, if you start first, moment of alacrity has no benefit. :smalltongue:

Obviously your ally WRTs you after you act on turn 1, dropping your initiative and allowing you to act again, and then you Moment acting first next turn too, and on that turn WRT your ally so they act first that turn too.