PDA

View Full Version : Archery in 3.5/pathfinder



Vallum
2010-09-29, 08:30 PM
still makes me :frown:

I've been trying to make a halfway decent archery build of some kind for a long while now
Anything really, I'm trying to come up with someone who uses archery as a focus that can hold his/her position on a team without other players feeling like that character could have been another meat shield for the wizard, or a druid, or something...
I really want a viable half-orc ranger named Zex, (using pathfinder, so not total suck), to be both optimal on a gaming stand-point and intriguing on a story-point,
I have the character fluff and background all taken care of, but for the life of me I just keep seeing his damage with his bow and think, " hm, the bard can do his job... and then some" and usually have him charge going ape-crazy with a falchion and think... "I could have saved myself the feats and just made him a melee guy"
I was even thinking of changing him to an inquisitor to help with bane being so much better then FE... But I just want the GitP to give me a good argument for optimized archers that can be comparable to optimized bard/wizard/fighter/anything else optimized. I feel like archers are on the bottom of the barrel on a comparative stance, seeing that you can do so much more with melee/raw magic

Eldariel
2010-09-29, 09:00 PM
Optimized Archery generally involves being a Cleric which can certainly be competitive with other Tier 1s. Optimized martial archery can be on par with optimized melee. Archery even has its own TO loopholes for fun.

The biggest issue is that:
1) Core Archery is very item-based.
2) Non-Core Archery draws upon a huge number of sources.
3) To be good at anything but firing huge volleys dealing tons of damage, you'll need magic (yes, this includes Sneak Attack, Skirmish and so on as to land precision reliably at range, you need magic - Skirmish is more of melee than anything anyways).


But if you want me to, I can show you a dozen good archers of various kinds. In PF Core, Vital Aim helps a tad. I tossed together some build that went Fighter 20 and got decent numbers out of it, though of course two-hander blows it out of the water and Fighter 20 misses out on all the key skills.

Archery's biggest advantage is that there's a lot of means to add extra attacks to the volley. Not as many as with TWF, but at higher bonuses and with full damage on each shot with one weapon. The other is that arrows can carry separate enhancements from the bow, making "magic stack" quite easy to accomplish. And of course, the whole "I can attack from 10000' away"-thingy.


But yeah, easiest potent Archer-builds:
- Cleric/Archivist/etc. 20 with some manner of Persisting (optional but v. useful) and PrCs to taste.
- Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 (better with Incantatrix + Wyrm Wizard over Arcane Trickster for persisting fun, obv)
- Mystic Ranger 9/Stalker of Kharesh 4/Scout 5/Unseen Seer 1 (note: Skirmish-using, biggest advantages are at close quarters)
- Warblade 6/Barbarian 1/Fighter (Targeteer) 1/Ranger 2/Eternal Blade 10 (Eternal Blade somewhat optional but it gets goodies later on)
- Factotum 20
- Ardent 20
- Ranger 2/Psion 4/Slayer 10/Anarchic Initiate 4

Vallum
2010-09-29, 09:21 PM
[stuff]
But if you want me to, I can show you a dozen good archers of various kinds.
[more stuff]

I'd like that actually. I need to see it elaborated a bit more. With all the examples, (cleric being a prevalent one), doesn't the persist cheese apply to melee clerics as well? Isn't melee cleric better? (I wouldn't know, never have I had a character gone far enough in a progression in a IRL game to see the difference first hand). Don't get me wrong though: I love zen archery, and actually used to practice IRL with other zen buddhists when I went to practice down in Oregon before I got into LARPing and other forms of mock battle to have myself focus on more then archery. So its very flavorful and appealing to me, I just want to see the crunch and build to understand it in a gaming perspective.
from trying to make an archer in the past, I know OotBi is a trap, but I've heard good thing about deepwood sniper, (but haven't seen a build with one and/or in action/damage layout).

Also, a bow SA build? Is the only way to get the no-dex is beating the enemy surprise round, or is there another plausible way to do this? I have a player in a PF game coming up and I want to ether help him or know what he's doing, (depending on his research), with a rogue and archery SA's. Otherwise, I might just have him look at scout. and have him learn to love it.

Crossblade
2010-09-29, 09:21 PM
I'll be honest, I'm not the best optimizer and I only got Pathfinder about 2 weeks ago, so I haven't finished reading it all yet. But, have you thought about going into Arcane Archer? It seems a bit stronger than 3.5, though the need to split your class 2-3 ways for the higher level spells, ranger abilities and arcane archer perks.

I'd likely go:
Half Elf, favorite classes: Ranger/Sorc(elemental bloodline)
Ranger 2 / Sorcerer 1/ Ranger 4/AA 3/ Sorc 3...
And then see where the campaign and the character goes from there. Likely sorcerer for better spells.

Much simpler and noobish than Eldariel's builds, for sure.

Vallum
2010-09-29, 09:24 PM
I'll be honest, I'm not the best optimizer and I only got Pathfinder about 2 weeks ago, so I haven't finished reading it all yet. But, have you thought about going into Arcane Archer? It seems a bit stronger than 3.5, though the need to split your class 2-3 ways for the higher level spells, ranger abilities and arcane archer perks.

I'd likely go:
Half Elf, favorite classes: Ranger/Sorc(elemental bloodline)
Ranger 2 / Sorcerer 1/ Ranger 4/AA 3/ Sorc 3...
And then see where the campaign and the character goes from there. Likely sorcerer for better spells.

Much simpler and noobish than Eldariel's builds, for sure.

I built an AA on my free time, experimenting with what it can do, and I looooooove the changes... I'm just not seeing the crunch I can see with, say, a simple wizard/fighter/EK, even in PF, let alone 3.5 . . .

Eldariel
2010-09-29, 09:35 PM
I'd like that actually. I need to see it elaborated a bit more. With all the examples, (cleric being a prevalent one), doesn't the persist cheese apply to melee clerics as well? Isn't melee cleric better? (I wouldn't know, never have I had a character gone far enough in a progression in a IRL game to see the difference first hand). Don't get me wrong though: I love zen archery, and actually used to practice IRL with other zen buddhists when I went to practice down in Oregon before I got into LARPing and other forms of mock battle to have myself focus on more then archery. So its very flavorful and appealing to me, I just want to see the crunch and build to understand it in a gaming perspective.
from trying to make an archer in the past, I know OotBi is a trap, but I've heard good thing about deepwood sniper, (but haven't seen a build with one and/or in action/damage layout).

Well, Zen Archery Cleric has full attack every turn, and one more attack than Two-Hander (Rapid Shot). He also has access to a handful of Archery-specific buffs (Blessed Aim comes to mind) and the ability to use magic to buff up arrows.

Whether he's better than melee Zilla really comes down to using range; range itself has huge inherent benefits and those are what you need to tap to. You can quicken Teleport and full attack, easily "kiting" any opponent unable to teleport, for example. Much harder to do with melee.


Archivist gets access to Ranger-only slew of buffs which among others, offers Hunter's Mercy which makes your next bow attack automatically a critical threat. There's also Sniper's Shot (SA at any range) and Guided Shot (no miss chances) and so on.

Overall though, archers benefit much more from smart party play than standard melee types and if you're one of those groups who walk around in a ball and wait for enemy ambushes, many of the benefits archery offers are hugely diminished.


Also, a bow SA build? Is the only way to get the no-dex is beating the enemy surprise round, or is there another plausible way to do this? I have a player in a PF game coming up and I want to ether help him or know what he's doing, (depending on his research), with a rogue and archery SA's. Otherwise, I might just have him look at scout. and have him learn to love it.

(Greater) Invisibility/Hide in Plain Sight. 3.5 SRD has a variant Rogue that can get Hide in Plain Sight as a special ability, for example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue), and there's always the Shadow Dancer dip.

Other than that, opponents balancing without 5 ranks in the skill are considered flat-footed (e.g. Grease-spell accomplishes that). Wands are your best friend. Sniper's Shot [SC]-spell is also key, removing the range limits from ranged sneak attacks.


And yeah, 3.0 offers 3 classes that are wonderful for archery: Deepwood Sniper [MoTW], Peerless Archer [Silver Marches] and Order of the Bow Initiate [Sword & Fist; beware the 3.5 trap version in Complete Warrior]. Check KSB Snow Owl's Archery Builds (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=194.0) for more on those.

And overall, there's stuff available to archers that doesn't work in melee. Woodland Archer [RoTW], for example, is a wonderful feat that gets you +4 when you miss a target. Get lots of attacks (something archery excels at; so far I stand at non-magical 45 attack nova on 20 assuming you lost Initiative, 40-44 (depending on certain rules interpretation) if acting first) and that amounts to massive To Hit-bonuses meaning it's not out of the question to hit targets with 100 AC. And of course, every bonus that applies on each hit is bigger, the more attacks you have.

EDIT: And 3.5 AA works somewhat in the Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Sacred Exorcist 4 shell. I daresay it works rather well, even. Of course, all you use is Imbue Arrow (since that's the only worthwhile ability the class has) but with full casting, it's a v. useful one. Pathfinder version wouldn't change much, of course. Though plain Arcane Archer actually gets some abilities now, so it's not entirely horrible. Still, taking it all the way costs you 9th level spells which just isn't worth it. Now, dipping 3 isn't a terrible option.

EDIT#2: Oh, there's few awesome Bow-only enhancements in the game. Most important is of course Splitting [CoR] which basically doubles your damage for +3. And then you have Seeking [DMg], which is just insane, and Force [MiC] which ignores DR and hits incorporeals and just does a ton of stuff for +2. So yeah, bow enhancements are definitely a big part of bows being awesome.

EDIT#3: Oh, and Raptor Arrows [MiC] are Bow-only and a very potent Relic effectively giving you extra +2 to hit and +2+2d6 on damage with your bow. Without taking weapon enhancement slots. They're relics tho so for non-Clerics (or Mystic Rangers or Archivists or Druids, I guess) they take a feat. Still, fairly good.

EDIT#4: Y'know what, I'm writing a handbook on this subject. Have one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.00). Mayhap I should focus on finishing that instead of typing this...

Crossblade
2010-09-29, 09:45 PM
I built an AA on my free time, experimenting with what it can do, and I looooooove the changes... I'm just not seeing the crunch I can see with, say, a simple wizard/fighter/EK, even in PF, let alone 3.5 . . .

From what I make of the Eldritch Knight, it's like a switch hitter in baseball. It will either cast or melee to throw off opponents, like a batter will change the side of the plate to throw off the pitcher.
Arcane Archer puts his spells into his arrows, like if the pitcher throws a grenade at the batter.

....that's didn't mesh as well into baseball as I thought it was going to.

randomhero00
2010-09-29, 09:56 PM
how do you get 40 something attacks?

KnightDisciple
2010-09-29, 10:01 PM
If you're working in Pathfinder, might I suggest examining the Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/fighter#TOC-Archer) Fighter? Couldn't hurt your efforts.

Eldariel
2010-09-29, 10:08 PM
how do you get 40 something attacks?

I just realized that without Haste, you need to cut one out of all those attacks. So 40 attacks when going second or 34-40 when going first. It's basically a stack of maneuvers and base attack increases. Eternal Blade Archer's full nova involves:

Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy )
Rapid Shot
Targeteer's Arrow Storm [DR325]

This gets you 8 base attacks (one Whirling, one Rapid Shot, two Arrow Storm). Then you initiate Time Stands Still, which gives you two full attacks, so 16 shots. Then you initiate Island in Time and use Eternal Training to gain Time Stands Still and initiate Time Stands Still for two more full attacks. This puts you up to 32. Then you initiate Moment of Alacrity if going second, and do one more full attack + recovery (secondary unarmed strike or natural attack against...well, whatever - hit air and color it a flourish for all I care - allows you to qualify for recovery).

Going first, you'll initiate Island in Time first and then Raging Mongoose with your Swift Action. Depending on how the maneuver is read, it may grant you anything from 2 extra attacks on each full attack to two extra attacks on one of them (so 34-40). If you wanted to, you could instead of recovery also use Raging Mongoose in the 1st setup for 2 more attacks, but that would mean you wouldn't be able to follow up with a decent set on turn 2, so it's a trade-off either way.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-29, 10:10 PM
There are many approaches to being an archer in D&D. Some of them require magic items and lots of feats, and some of them primarily involve spellcasting and lots of feats. All archers become better if they can initiate combat long before melee combat is a possibility. So gaining a better sight line (frequently by flying) and maxing out your Spot skill are always going to be helpful.

I came up with this build for a previous thread, about getting more feats for archery. My solution ended up being primarily a spellcaster with Cloistered Cleric as a base. Do note the "cheesy sauce" mention is there for completeness, and I do not recommend that approach.


Here's a way to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody.

Race: Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 6 for Dead Eye, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.


Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine, page 61) 1. Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for

Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.

With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.