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heymejack
2010-09-29, 09:49 PM
So I've been reading both the Asmodeus thread and the Lords of the Nine thread, I got curious, and started reading through a bunch of different stuff, and eventually came upon the 7 layers of Celestia. As I was reading through all that, I noticed that Jaziran (the other serpent of law with asmodeus) is just a god that has a realm in the 4th layer, while his apparent counterpart in evil is the ruler of all the nine hells.

there was a short blurb about how he/she is content to sit back and watch what asmodeus is going to do, so as to be ready, but really? that seems so weak. and then it's all ruled (maybe) Zaphkiel.

I thought about just asking this in the Asmodeus thread, but it's a little off topic, and I didn't wan't to derail. I doubt this one will get anywhere near as interesting though. heaven just isn't as cool as hell. but, does anyone have thoughts on this?

arguskos
2010-09-29, 09:58 PM
Not entirely sure what you're asking, honestly. If you are asking, "is it sad that the forces of good didn't get even 10% of the detail the forces of evil did in 3.5?" then yes, I fully agree with you. If you're asking if we care about Jaziran, well, I can say with fervor that no, I don't. :smalltongue:

Vemynal
2010-09-29, 10:54 PM
Evil is simply more fun so we get focused on more ^_^

HunterOfJello
2010-09-29, 10:59 PM
In d&d, the forces of evil vastly outnumber the forces of good. There are more of them, they're better armed and they're better at what they do.

The blood war takes care of this keeping the devils and demons busy while the angels try to improve the place and generally not get completely overpowered.

Lord_Gareth
2010-09-29, 11:24 PM
The thing is...

Well, the thing is, WotC is lazy, and probably biased, and I cannot thoroughly deconstruct their design flaws without violating the forum rules about IRL religion. However, WotC wrote "good" under the basic assumption that most players didn't engage in any manner of serious moral thought, and as such could leave much of the Upper Planes vague as a fill-in-the-blanks kind of thing. On the other hand, they could fill the Lower Planes with the rather thorough (and handily pre-made!) list of Bad Things including, but not limited to, sexual deviancy (OF ANY KIND), lying or theft (FOR ANY REASON, including to preserve one's life), killing sapient beings that are not evil-aligned (FOR ANY REASON, including to save further lives), et cetera, so forth.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-29, 11:30 PM
As I was reading through all that, I noticed that Jaziran (the other serpent of law with asmodeus) is just a god that has a realm in the 4th layer, while his apparent counterpart in evil is the ruler of all the nine hells.

It's not a matter of level of detail or even favoritism of evil, it's simply a matter of redundant naming. There's JAZIRIAN, one of the Twin Serpents, champion of all that is Good and Law, co-creator of the Wheel, etc. etc. etc., and then there's Jazirian, the minor deity of couatls (possible an aspect of the above Jazirian) who nobody really cares about. The LG-mirror-of-Asmodeus Jazirian in the other thread is the former version; the Jazirian puttering about in Celestia is the latter.

Zaydos
2010-09-30, 12:11 AM
In d&d, the forces of evil vastly outnumber the forces of good. There are more of them, they're better armed and they're better at what they do.

The blood war takes care of this keeping the devils and demons busy while the angels try to improve the place and generally not get completely overpowered.

This is kind of it.

If Good was as powerful as Evil then the PCs become less. D&D is a game of epic heroism; you are the only hope for Good. Therefore Good must be impotent without you.

That and inconstant portrayals. Also most of the information we get about Asmodeus and other big bad evils is according to itself myths that were probably made by the fiends themselves. With Celestia you just get the top layer and a fill in the blanks yourself.

NineThePuma
2010-09-30, 01:14 AM
I /wish/ that Celestial and Co were as filled out =|

hamishspence
2010-09-30, 04:08 AM
It's not a matter of level of detail or even favoritism of evil, it's simply a matter of redundant naming. There's JAZIRIAN, one of the Twin Serpents, champion of all that is Good and Law, co-creator of the Wheel, etc. etc. etc., and then there's Jazirian, the minor deity of couatls (possible an aspect of the above Jazirian) who nobody really cares about. The LG-mirror-of-Asmodeus Jazirian in the other thread is the former version; the Jazirian puttering about in Celestia is the latter.

In the Dicefreaks version, it suggests that the Twin Serpents legend is itself a distortion of the truth- there were three serpents, not two- the "Supreme Virtue" is not called Jazirian.

heymejack
2010-09-30, 05:17 AM
yeah, i don't have a question, as such. I just got really engrossed by the asmo discussion, and then got curious once i was going through some of the celestia stuff. It makes perfect sense that the designers put a lot more focus on the place where adventurers might actually want to go for killin' things and taking their stuff. running around the mountain of heaven killin' dwarves with halos doesn't sound that fun.

unless of course you were planning on running an evil, invasion into heaven campaign. :smallfurious:

you know, hypothetically or whatever



mwuhahahahahahaha!!!

Coidzor
2010-09-30, 05:22 AM
By that point you're on the scale of blowing planes away and Mechanus-Bot is after you, so.... yeah...

Zeta Kai
2010-09-30, 05:30 AM
By that point you're on the scale of blowing planes away and Mechanus-Bot is after you, so.... yeah...

That also sounds like a fun adventure hook. :smallamused:

hamishspence
2010-09-30, 05:42 AM
On the other hand, they could fill the Lower Planes with the rather thorough (and handily pre-made!) list of Bad Things including, but not limited to, sexual deviancy (OF ANY KIND), lying or theft (FOR ANY REASON, including to preserve one's life), killing sapient beings that are not evil-aligned (FOR ANY REASON, including to save further lives), et cetera, so forth.

BoVD does state lying is not always an evil act.

And, that killing a sapient being that's about to commit mass murder (even if they've been conned into it) is not an evil act if it's the only way.

Coidzor
2010-09-30, 05:43 AM
That also sounds like a fun adventure hook. :smallamused:

I KNOW!

Ever since I ran into the idea I've been in love with it...x.x

Err, sorry to be tangential...

As far as Celestia goes...

I always saw the primary weakness/discrepancy between the Upper and Lower planes was that the Upper Planes reunite the essence/souls from the material with the universe as they advance through the path of enlightenment they've chosen in live and continue upon in death. Well, either the universe or the ultimate source of LG, NG, or CG. Whereas the lower planes aside from the Grey Waste (where the petitioners are nearly immediately destroyed by being eroded away until they're just more of the landscape) make the souls of their petitioners into more fiends, magic items, currency, and/or food, thus increasing their power.

There's some small discussion of the tippy-top tier of evil fiends becoming more one with their planes in passing but everything about them suggests a much more here and now power and gratification in contrast to the celestials who weaken themselves by generally only accepting volunteers into their ranks from the souls that pass through their care.

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 04:22 AM
Maybe Asmodeus, the Primus of the Modrons, and Zaphkiel, could all be avatars? Zaphkiel has the Stigmata feat- maybe he got the wounds from the original battle between the Supreme Virtue and the future Overlord of Hell- with the Silver Sea being the blood of the Supreme Virtue that fell from its wounds, as Dicefreaks's Gates of Hell suggests?

Might explain why, even after being slain by Orcus/Tenebrous, the Primus was fairly quickly replaced by a new, similar Primus.

Calmar
2010-10-01, 04:49 AM
Might explain why, even after being slain by Orcus/Tenebrous, the Primus was fairly quickly replaced by a new, similar Primus.

A Primus is always replaced by an identical one... except the one time Orcus messed with the modron hierarchy.

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 04:54 AM
Hence- the idea that the Primus is actually an avatar of the Serpent of Mechanus- and when killed, the Serpent simply manifests a new avatar.

The Overlord of Hell has been known to manifest very different avatars (Lucifer and Asmodeus) but the Serpent of Mechanus could prefer identical ones.

(The serpent being no longer in serpentine form- but having been broken into the form of the cogs of Mechanus, at the dawn of time).

Maybe on very special occasions- the End of All Things, for example, the whole of Mechanus could animate as a gigantic mechanical serpent?

The Regalia of Good, Evil, and Neutrality could have been created to be worn by these avatars, before being gifted to champions of these three alignments. In Arms and Equipment Guide, an inevitable (kolyarut) is shown wearing the Regalia of Neutrality.

KillianHawkeye
2010-10-01, 06:45 AM
I hope I don't sound really stupid, but I've read most of the 3E/3.5 books and have never heard of these "Serpents of Law" thingies. Anyone care to enlighten me?

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 07:20 AM
The original concept was in the very late 2nd ed book Guide to Hell (1999).

Dicefreaks revisited it, modifying it slightly to fit their own concept (as a legend, rather than entirely accurate- with the LG Serpent not in fact being the deity Jazirian).

3.0 Manual of the Planes raises the notion of Asmodeus as a miles-long serpent, possibly a fallen greater deity, possibly something even more fundemental, whose very existence might shape the planes in some way. This may be a hint as to the 2nd ed Guide to Hell story.

The Greyhawk Wiki discusses the many portrayals of Asmodeus:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Asmodeus

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 07:28 AM
I /wish/ that Celestial and Co were as filled out =|

That sound like a large project that would require the efforts of a forum of people who already have a d&d homebrew community, oh wait... :smallbiggrin:
New Idea!!

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 07:34 AM
Maybe start by taking the Dicefreaks version of Baator, and using it as inspiration?

Import the deity mechanics, and fill out each of the Celestial Hebdomad in at least as much depth as the Lords of the Nine got. Maybe with revised versions of some of the celestials as well, new feats, spells, PRCs, and so on.

It would, in essence, be "BoED done right" (or rather, a part of it- since it would just be Celestia getting the full detailing).

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 09:09 AM
Ibelievw dicefreaks is on it.

Eldan
2010-10-01, 09:34 AM
They have been for years, though, without much progress. Same as with the abyss and the fairy project.

Morithias
2010-10-01, 10:06 AM
In d&d, the forces of evil vastly outnumber the forces of good. There are more of them, they're better armed and they're better at what they do.

The blood war takes care of this keeping the devils and demons busy while the angels try to improve the place and generally not get completely overpowered.

Wait, I thought the wheel stated that everything was in perfect balance?

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 10:09 AM
"Perfect balance" in this case might be "roughly equal amounts of influence on the Material Plane and the Outer Planes."

So- the various outerplanar operations on the Material Plane would not be especially dominated by any one side.

Devils and Demons might outnumber the other factions- but the extra numbers, are tied up in the Blood War- so their overall influence is comparable to the other factions.

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 10:11 AM
step 1 rewrite the cr 14 tome archon into a cr 20 pit fiend/balor equivalent.
step 2 rewrite the summoning table so that the good monsters of the same cr are not introduced 1-2 spell levels later.

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 10:16 AM
Throne Archons could do with a rewrite, yes.

Maybe dig up the various other archons (the stone-centric archon in Races of Stone, the psionic one in Complete Psionic, the truenaming one in Tome of Magic, etc).

Grommen
2010-10-01, 10:22 AM
Deal is, even if you go evil. Eventually you run afoul of the demons and devils anyway. They don't like new competition. :smalleek:

Coarse then things can get really fun, cause team good might decide that it's time for you to go. Team Evil wants your head on a stick, just cause. And Team Neutral just sits their watching, grinning like an idiot. Nary a friend in the 'verse, and it's too late to run. Ah...good times....good times.

In all honestly though. Not many people want to invade heaven. Not as many books because they would not sell well.

I've never even heard of this person your speaking of and I have played D&D for 20 years, yet I can nearly recall the stat block of Orcus (cause he is my fav evil bad guy).

Good, I have always assumed, was better organized, and didn't need nearly as many people. Besides they call on the adventures all the live long day so they don't need help.

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 10:23 AM
maybe someone should start a homebrew thread... (not me I left my books at home when I went to collage).
As to the tome archons yeah.. they are fluffed like pit fiend equivalents at a cr of 14. :yuk:

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 10:33 AM
The problem with making Throne Archons = Pit Fiends is that there already is a good creature that = pit fiends and balors, and beats them both senseless.

Everybody's favorite gateable creature Mr. Solar. Been there since at least 2e (and I'm not checking 1e right now) and has been stronger than any non-unique demon or devil since then.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-01, 10:57 AM
The thing with Solars is they are more exemplars of goodness, where the Tome Archon I believe is the exemplar of Lawful goodness. So I agree there should be something along the lines of a pit fiend/Balor for the archons

DeltaEmil
2010-10-01, 10:59 AM
Don't solars (that are of good alignment) come in all three variants? Neutral good, chaotic good, and lawful good.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 11:00 AM
I can go with that, although I think in some editions Solars have had an alignment of "any good" and were supposed to be capable of being the LG, CG< and NG equivalents; then again the Gaurdinal and Eladrin top ranks were better in comparison to fiends back then (not sure on Archons).

Solars could also be kept in their old roles as "generic top servants to the good gods" which is forgotten by WotC often enough (although then we need a "generic top servants to the evil gods" race).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-01, 11:01 AM
Don't solars (that are of good alignment) come in all three variants? Neutral good, chaotic good, and lawful good.

That is my point, they are good, there is one for every aligment, but I think the point of the Tome Archon is to have an outsider that INVARIABLY will be Lawful.

I am not sure if I am making any sense right now

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 11:09 AM
Now I want to run an encounter to start an epic campaign with the level 21 characters getting attacked by a greater aspect of Asamodious + 12 pit fiends, who then get blindsided by the Entire Celestial Hedebond. That's the start.

Also I think angels are indicative of 3.5's lazy take on good, as in they could not be bothered to create LG, NG, and CG creatures.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 11:11 AM
That is my point, they are good, there is one for every aligment, but I think the point of the Tome Archon is to have an outsider that INVARIABLY will be Lawful.

I am not sure if I am making any sense right now

You are. Although really I think WotC blew it with most of the Outsiders besides Tanar'ri and Baatezu in 3.X.

Ultraloths are significantly weaker than either of those, when supposed to be almost on par physically, their equal in SLA, and have powerful wizarding skills; and instead are over CR'd, and weaker in both of the first 2 and completely lacking in the 3rd category. Arcanaloths were supposed to have some really good SLAs, and powerful wizarding skills... and got neither. I'm not happy with the Guardinals or Eladrins either, and I only managed to obtain the Planes of Law long after I stopped dealing with 2e so I'm not familiar with Archons' 2e stats yet to comment.

And they didn't even officially update the Modrons :smallmad: Although some of the high level ones would get dual 9s if you kept their 2e spellcasting.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-10-01, 11:39 AM
I can go with that, although I think in some editions Solars have had an alignment of "any good" and were supposed to be capable of being the LG, CG< and NG equivalents; then again the Gaurdinal and Eladrin top ranks were better in comparison to fiends back then (not sure on Archons).

Solars could also be kept in their old roles as "generic top servants to the good gods" which is forgotten by WotC often enough (although then we need a "generic top servants to the evil gods" race).

Since solars are individually much more powerful than pit fiends and balors, what we could do if we were Dicefreaks-ifying Celestia would be to upgrade the throne archon to pit fiend/balor power (bringing the new solar a bit closer to the pit fiend and balor when we got to it) and instead use the solar as the chassis for the unique beings, just like Gates of Hell uses advanced pit fiends + special templates to stat out the Dukes and other minor Powers of Baator.


So...given that I have pretty much every 2e and 3e book related to outsiders, the planes, and Planescape, I'd definitely be up for a project to bring the other Outer Planes up to Gates of Hell level. Anyone else?

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 11:53 AM
I don't particularly like the fluff (mainly because I think Asamodius needs to be vunerable to his peers, as in he wins because he is one of these http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard?from=Main.MagnificentBitch and not because he is just strong) that said I would help... if all of my books weren't in another state. I am very interested in this project and would love to give feedback until I retrieve those books in about two weeks.

Eldan
2010-10-01, 12:14 PM
In the fluff for Planescape, there were seven Archons, for the seven layers of the mountain. Lantern, Hound, Trumpet, Tome, Throne and... can't remember the other two. Those were the native outsiders of Celestia.
Solars were an entirely different thing. They were an enormous force. Some of the strongest powers in the outer planes. But they did not belong to any plane. They belonged to individual causes and were supposed to be vastly stronger than anything else. They could summon phoenixes and elder titans.

So, I'm actually opposed of the idea of more than seven archons: seven archons for seven layers made sense, even if the seventh layer was never seen.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 12:20 PM
Owl and Warden Archon. They're also in the BoED.

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 01:10 PM
my $.02 Is that if we are going to do this project we might as well try to create counterparts for as many devils/demons as possible. Also I thought tome and throne were the same thing. Also there are sword archons one of 2 CR 10 archons

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 01:14 PM
And BoED does associate each Archon with a layer of Mount Celestia.

Chess435
2010-10-01, 01:27 PM
Now I want to run an encounter to start an epic campaign with the level 21 characters getting attacked by a greater aspect of Asamodious + 12 pit fiends, who then get blindsided by the Entire Celestial Hedebond. That's the start.

Also I think angels are indicative of 3.5's lazy take on good, as in they could not be bothered to create LG, NG, and CG creatures.

That sounds like an awesome campaign idea. I'd totally want to play.

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 01:37 PM
Me too but my books are in the wrong state and I have never DM'ed before and I don't think epic is the place to start. Still you would get bonus points for casting dimensional anchor on Asmodeus after the Hedebond show up. :smallbiggrin:

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-10-01, 02:21 PM
So, I'm actually opposed of the idea of more than seven archons: seven archons for seven layers made sense, even if the seventh layer was never seen.

The idea wasn't to introduce any new archons, but rather to rejigger the stats of the existing archons to make them more comparable to their fiendish counterparts. When I was talking about nerfing solars, I was thinking 3e had turned them into generic NG celestials because the SRD doesn't has a guardinal entry. It turns out that won't be necessary, fortunately, so we can leave the solars as they are.

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 02:25 PM
Throne Archons can be a non-unique group- the highest of non-unique archons- on a par with balors or pit fiends- I'd upgrade them from CR14 to CR20.

"Tome Archons" however, is an informal term for the Celestial Hebdomad, which are all unique celestials- and thus should probably be on a par with the Lords of the Nine.

I like the notion of a Gates of Hell-style update of Celestia- but it would be a very big project.

Useful note- MMIV adds another archon- the Justice Archon- CR6, looks like a humanoid with wings. May be a good "basic aerial trooper" for Celestia.

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 02:40 PM
Throne Archons can be a non-unique group- the highest of non-unique archons- on a par with balors or pit fiends- I'd upgrade them from CR14 to CR20.

Like I said I just got tome and throne mixed up because I was in a diferent state than my BoED


I like the notion of a Gates of Hell-style update of Celestia- but it would be a very big project.

Thread + group? Be nice to try. I would say spend minimal time on the inevitable creation story that has a good chance of being ignored and more time on establishing the Archons as a credible threat to Asmodeus (none of this all according to plan stuff read this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0137.html) and Bator while simultaneously providing reasons to why they need mortal help. I'd start with restating and go from there.

hamishspence
2010-10-01, 02:53 PM
Maybe give the archons a bit more on their personalities, plans, and whatnot.

Just as, despite all being LE, the Lords of the Nine have a lot of differences- so the archons could be similar.

Domiel could be redone as sneakier, much more like the order he's the patron of (Slayers of Domiel).

Hmm- maybe draw heavily on Tome of Battle for some of them? Raziel as crusader-ish as well as paladin-ish, Pictis Sophia as unarmed swordsage, etc.

Zaphkiel would be Asmodeus's peer in power- and history- like him he is an "ancient mystery" so I like the idea of him as Avatar of the Supreme Virtue.

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 02:59 PM
Dicefreakifying the Good planes is WAY up on my list of things to do. I'd love to take part in a project like that.

Do we want to work off of some of what DF has done, or start from scratch?

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 03:05 PM
meh don't like their lore as I've said but willing to help I'll just refluff later

Agrippa
2010-10-01, 03:10 PM
Dicefreakifying the Good planes is WAY up on my list of things to do. I'd love to take part in a project like that.

Do we want to work off of some of what DF has done, or start from scratch?

They already have a project like that. They might even get it done by 2013.

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 03:11 PM
They already have a project like that. They might even get it done by 2013.

I know. Let's see if we can build it first.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-10-01, 03:24 PM
Thread + group? Be nice to try. I would say spend minimal time on the inevitable creation story that has a good chance of being ignored and more time on establishing the Archons as a credible threat to Asmodeus (none of this all according to plan stuff read this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0137.html) and Bator while simultaneously providing reasons to why they need mortal help. I'd start with restating and go from there.

On the creation story front, we're not going to get much agreement there, and it's something we'd probably want to do after DF-ifying the CE and CG planes anyway (if we ever got that far), so here's what I propose for that section:

Long ago, the universe was shaped. The devils spread propaganda about those days; the demons lie in any words that pass their lips; the daemons claim to agree with whatever theory is espoused by those in their company with which they wish to ingratiate themselves. The Lords of the Nine and the Hebdomad know the truth, and use that truth in their plans against their opposites, but the seven rulers of the Seven Mounting Heavens do not dwell on what was and what could have been. Regardless of the Lord of the Ninth's identity, regardless of the plots that rise from the depths of Hells, it is every archon's duty to advance the cause of Good against the devils wherever they rear their ugly heads.

Something along those lines should serve as a nice placeholder.


Maybe give the archons a bit more on their personalities, plans, and whatnot.

That's what Gates of Hell did, so of course we'd want to do the same here. Since there's less canon on them, we're free to improvise a lot more.


Zaphkiel would be Asmodeus's peer in power- and history- like him he is an "ancient mystery" so I like the idea of him as Avatar of the Supreme Virtue.

Particularly since he's the only in canon to have been there since the beginning--like the Lords of the Nine, the others have been replaced as they've died fighting for the cause and all Hebdomad members must be brought in by Zaphkiel--having him be an avatar like Asmodeus would work quite nicely.


Dicefreakifying the Good planes is WAY up on my list of things to do. I'd love to take part in a project like that.

Do we want to work off of some of what DF has done, or start from scratch?

I think using the GoH templates for Lords of the Nine and the lesser unique beings would be a good start, but we don't have to follow their design principles exactly.


meh don't like their lore as I've said but willing to help I'll just refluff later

Most of it's not original Dicefreaks lore; it's 2e lore from Guide to Hell with the trademark names replaced with similar ones.

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 03:39 PM
On the creation story front, we're not going to get much agreement there, and it's something we'd probably want to do after DF-ifying the CE and CG planes anyway (if we ever got that far), so here's what I propose for that section:

Long ago, the universe was shaped. The devils spread propaganda about those days; the demons lie in any words that pass their lips; the daemons claim to agree with whatever theory is espoused by those in their company with which they wish to ingratiate themselves. The Lords of the Nine and the Hebdomad know the truth, and use that truth in their plans against their opposites, but the seven rulers of the Seven Mounting Heavens do not dwell on what was and what could have been. Regardless of the Lord of the Ninth's identity, regardless of the plots that rise from the depths of Hells, it is every archon's duty to advance the cause of Good against the devils wherever they rear their ugly heads.

um... but didn't you just say this?



Particularly since he's the only in canon to have been there since the beginning--like the Lords of the Nine, the others have been replaced as they've died fighting for the cause and all Hebdomad members must be brought in by Zaphkiel--having him be an avatar like Asmodeus would work quite nicely.

JonestheSpy
2010-10-01, 03:57 PM
In d&d, the forces of evil vastly outnumber the forces of good. There are more of them, they're better armed and they're better at what they do.

The blood war takes care of this keeping the devils and demons busy while the angels try to improve the place and generally not get completely overpowered.

I don't think that actually accurate. An argument could be made for higher numbers, but if you look at stats and such I don't think the fiends are more powerful.

BTW, as far as a bit of gaming history goes, originally the idea was that the Good creatures were rarer but more powerful than the bad guys. Gold dragons were the most powerful dragon breed, Bahamut kicked Tiamat's ass, and the lawful good Kirin was one of the most powerful non-unique monsters you could meet. Devas, Planetars and Solars were introduced around the time of the 1st Edition Monster Manual2, to round out the vastly outnumbered (in terms on entries in the manuals, anyways) Good guys and have direct planar counterparts to the demons, daemons, and devils, with planetars and solars being the good power-equivalents of the archdevils and demon princes.

In 3rd edition, they finally created alignment-specific good guys - archons, eldarin, and the neutral good animal guys. Then they brought back the exiled-by-2nd-edition Archfiends and upped their power level considerably, and introduced all the head archons, Courts of Stars, etc to be there good counterparts.

I think it's pretty obvious that evil stuff gets a lot more written about it because the majority of gamers will be fighting Evil. I don't think it has to follow that Good is inherently weaker than Evil. Yeah, a lot of folks seem to like the idea in theory of an ultra-high powered "The multiverse will be overrun by fiends unless the PC's can save it! campaign, but the actual number of games that get there is really really small, I'm guessing.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-10-01, 03:59 PM
um... but didn't you just say this?

The point is that we would not have to discuss the definite truth or falsehood of any creation story. If you're in Planescape and believe that Asmodeus is the avatar of one of the Twin Serpents, Zaphkiel is the avatar of the other. If you're in the Dicefreaks 'verse and believe the Three Progenitors of Law take, they're both avatars along with Primus. If you're in Greyhawk and believe the Pact Primeval story, Zaphkiel is one of Asmodeus's old angelic buddies and guardian of one of the copies of the Pact. Any contributor can put in various takes on the origins/relations/motivations of the various archons, but we don't have to come to a single consensus as to what the "real" story is, since having to do that first would be a pretty big roadblock to getting this done.

Zaydos
2010-10-01, 04:01 PM
2e introduced Archons, Eladrins, and Guardinals; it was in Planescape (same place we got the Blood War).

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 06:55 PM
The point is that we would not have to discuss the definite truth or falsehood of any creation story. If you're in Planescape and believe that Asmodeus is the avatar of one of the Twin Serpents, Zaphkiel is the avatar of the other. If you're in the Dicefreaks 'verse and believe the Three Progenitors of Law take, they're both avatars along with Primus. If you're in Greyhawk and believe the Pact Primeval story, Zaphkiel is one of Asmodeus's old angelic buddies and guardian of one of the copies of the Pact. Any contributor can put in various takes on the origins/relations/motivations of the various archons, but we don't have to come to a single consensus as to what the "real" story is, since having to do that first would be a pretty big roadblock to getting this done.

Fine with me So... when do we start?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-10-01, 07:04 PM
Fine with me So... when do we start?

Ready when you are. I'd suggest someone put up a thread in homebrew asking for volunteers and hammering out who's going to do what and in what order so people who haven't been following this thread can participate. I can post that thread if no one else wants to.

blackjack217
2010-10-01, 07:07 PM
yeah... the guy without any books with him is not the best person to start a project... So you do it:smallbiggrin:

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-10-01, 08:06 PM
Here's the project thread. Everyone who's interested, head on over there and let's get cracking.

Zhalath
2010-10-01, 11:49 PM
Maybe on very special occasions- the End of All Things, for example, the whole of Mechanus could animate as a gigantic mechanical serpent?



I saw this and though that that would be a very awesome idea.

I always though WotC doesn't cover more good stuff because you don't fight a lot of good things, and you don't have to deal with them, really.

Coidzor
2010-10-02, 01:33 AM
I saw this and though that that would be a very awesome idea.

I always though WotC doesn't cover more good stuff because you don't fight a lot of good things, and you don't have to deal with them, really.

Mechanus Bot, I'm telling ya'll, MECHANUS BOT! It's like METAL GEAR! RAWWWGH!