PDA

View Full Version : Best everything to take as a thief



zenanarchist
2010-09-29, 10:02 PM
Focusing mainly on core with a few internet options (crystal keep and srd) what is the best...well, the title says it, everything.... to take as a thief?

Multiclass options? Feats? Skills?

The campaign will be a city/dungeon crawl based type of shindig.

Traps...yes. Creature killing...lord yes, also at some point we'll be fighting arena combat again. (In which I got slaughtered)

If my current player passes away and my homebrew class gets shut down massively...I'll be taking a thief class.

So....Forum goers. Pump me full of your amazing rogueish ideas.

gorfnab
2010-09-29, 11:28 PM
Usually with the "thief" characters I've played I've tended to take anything that wasn't securely bolted to the floor and even then I would still try to take it...

The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233)

Eldariel
2010-09-29, 11:39 PM
Magic? Yay or nay? 'cause Yay > lots of options.

zenanarchist
2010-09-29, 11:53 PM
Handbook is awesome...but tends to use a lot of things not on the SRD, core or crystal keep.

Also, magic is allowed in the campaign yes. :smallsmile: Just keep it core/srd/crystal keep

Also, I'm a whisper gnome and am focusing on ranged combat and am level 2. Thus, so far I have quick draw, Crossbow Sniper, Point Blank Shot and will have a light crossbow and hand crossbow as well as a Kukri.

Also....I'm getting conflicting information. What SLA's do whisper gnomes have? And also, they get +8 to hide and +4 to Mov. Silent yeah?

Thanks guys!

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-30, 01:31 AM
How about this?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

averagejoe
2010-09-30, 01:34 AM
The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233)

And for skillmonkies in general this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88715) is a nice resource.

gorfnab
2010-09-30, 01:36 AM
Also....I'm getting conflicting information. What SLA's do whisper gnomes have? And also, they get +8 to hide and +4 to Mov. Silent yeah?


1/day Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, Silence (centered on Whisper Gnome).
I recommend the feats Magic in the Blood (Player's Guide to Faerun) and Silencing Strike (Races of Stone) to take advantage of the SLAs.

Small size = +4 bonus to Hide checks
Also Whisper Gnomes get a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 01:37 AM
How about this?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b


And for skillmonkies in general this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88715) is a nice resource.

Loved both of those. However...with the first...I'm not so sure the DM will allow psionics. However the nerf to Sneak Attack wouldn't hurt since I'm mostly ranged anyway.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-30, 01:40 AM
But Psionics is most DEFINITELY SRD. Does he not want to allow psionics because it's 'not balanced', because he doesn't 'like the flavor', or because he 'has no idea whatsoever how psionics works'?

One of these reasons is valid...

Also, here's a decent SRD only rogue...


Tallfellow Halfling or Water Halfling. Combine the two if you can...
1. Rogue1 Combat Expertise
2. Fighter1 Weapon Finesse
3. Ranger1. Improved Feint
4. Ranger2 Two Weapon Fighting
5. Rogue2
6. Fighter2 Iron Will, Deadly Precision
7. Rogue3
8. Rogue4
9. Rogue5 Cloak Dance
10. Rogue6
11. Rogue7
12. Rogue8 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Rogue9
14. Rogue10 Crippling Strike
15. Rogue11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16. Rogue12
17. Rogue13 Improved Evasion
18. Rogue14 Two-Weapon Defense
19. Rogue15
20. Rogue16 Slippery Mind

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 01:42 AM
But Psionics is most DEFINITELY SRD. Does he not want to allow psionics because it's 'not balanced', because he doesn't 'like the flavor', or because he 'has no idea whatsoever how psionics works'?

One of these reasons is valid...

Also, here's a decent SRD only rogue...


Tallfellow Halfling or Water Halfling. Combine the two if you can...
1. Rogue1 Combat Expertise
2. Fighter1 Weapon Finesse
3. Ranger1. Improved Feint
4. Ranger2 Two Weapon Fighting
5. Rogue2
6. Fighter2 Iron Will, Deadly Precision
7. Rogue3
8. Rogue4
9. Rogue5 Cloak Dance
10. Rogue6
11. Rogue7
12. Rogue8 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Rogue9
14. Rogue10 Crippling Strike
15. Rogue11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16. Rogue12
17. Rogue13 Improved Evasion
18. Rogue14 Two-Weapon Defense
19. Rogue15
20. Rogue16 Slippery Mind

Oh I'm not saying he wouldn't allow it. I'm saying I'm not sure if he would. If he would then Psionic Rogue would be awesome.

Also the above WOULD be awesome except that I'm a whisper gnome (for small size, hide plusses, move silently plusses and AC plus) and focusing on ranged....

Though that does lose me sneak attack. Okay. On that note. Is a ranged or combat orientated rogue better/more optimised?

Edit, my scores are 9, 15, 14, 14, 9, 14 before racial modifiers

Benly
2010-09-30, 01:50 AM
But Psionics is most DEFINITELY SRD. Does he not want to allow psionics because it's 'not balanced', because he doesn't 'like the flavor', or because he 'has no idea whatsoever how psionics works'?

One of these reasons is valid...

I would say two are. While "it's not balanced" is provably untrue if you want to go to the time, hassle, and hostility-generation of "re-educating" a DM, "I don't know how these new mechanics work and am not comfortable running mechanics I don't know well" is perfectly reasonable, as is "I just don't like that class and don't want it in my game".

I mean, if a DM specifically doesn't like the flavor it makes sense to ask if you can reskin it as an alternate sorcerer, but sometimes people just don't like a class and won't enjoy DMing for it. Deal with it and roll something that the DM will enjoy DMing for as much as you'll enjoy playing it.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-30, 01:51 AM
I would say two are. While "it's not balanced" is provably untrue if you want to go to the time, hassle, and hostility-generation of "re-educating" a DM, "I don't know how these new mechanics work and am not comfortable running mechanics I don't know well" is perfectly reasonable, as is "I just don't like that class and don't want it in my game".

I mean, if a DM specifically doesn't like the flavor it makes sense to ask if you can reskin it as an alternate sorcerer, but sometimes people just don't like a class and won't enjoy DMing for it. Deal with it and roll something that the DM will enjoy DMing for as much as you'll enjoy playing it.

Well the reskinning thing with psionicist type characters is soooo soooo easy though, and can be done so thoroughly... that was my main point.

And Whisper Gnome is better than the race in that build, but isn't SRD.... is this SRD + Races of Stone?

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 01:53 AM
It'd be more a case of him educating me in psionics. I'm sure he's schooled in it. But due to my level of noobness it might create more problems than benefits that it produces. :smallfrown:

Sorry, didn't address your race query.

I said SRD, Crystal Keep, or Core 3.5.

:smallsmile:

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-30, 01:58 AM
It'd be more a case of him educating me in psionics. I'm sure he's schooled in it. But due to my level of noobness it might create more problems than benefits that it produces. :smallfrown:

Sorry, didn't address your race query.

I said SRD, Crystal Keep, or Core 3.5.

:smallsmile:

But... crystalkeep gives you most every race, class, and everything, albeit with a few typos here and there, and often mistakes in the abilities of some classes... look!

{Scrubbed}

See? Base classes. Just play a straight Whisper Gnome Beguiler.

Benly
2010-09-30, 01:58 AM
Well the reskinning thing with psionicist type characters is soooo soooo easy though, and can be done so thoroughly... that was my main point.

And Whisper Gnome is better than the race in that build, but isn't SRD.... is this SRD + Races of Stone?

It is easy, but sometimes there's something nebulous about a class that rubs someone the wrong way and it's more productive to just accept it rather than saying "Stop not liking what I like!"

I have a guy I game with regularly who sometimes DMs for us and doesn't really like certain classes for no concrete reason. It's not the flavor, he doesn't think they're broken, he just doesn't like them. He doesn't mind partying with them, but he won't roll those classes and doesn't enjoy DMing for them, so the correct thing to do is shrug and not roll those classes in his games.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 02:02 AM
Beguiler...

Spellcaster...Problems. As I said...Noob. I'd be lost on what spells to take... How to play a Beguiler well...what it's abilities do (since that site didn't really explain what cloaked caster etc do properly?).

But I've always loved the SOUND of a Beguiler.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-30, 02:09 AM
Beguiler just get's all it's spells from its list. Easy! There are a few more options to customize it, and there's a handbook if you want:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322

See if you can get access to PHBII, by the way... but all you really need is that base class thing, to pg 148 and 174.

And remember, this is D&D 3.5e. REAL SPELLCASTERS WIN BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUPERPOWERS.

Eldariel
2010-09-30, 09:23 AM
I'd just go straight Rogue with Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue)-variant, and pick up Hide in Plain Sight and Camouflage as two special abilities. This gets you HiPS on level 13, somewhat respectable. Then just go straight Rogue up to level 19 and take whatever on 20.

Maxing out Use Magic Device is rather key, and other than that just taking a bunch of skills and abusing the living out of them. The more efficient option would probably be Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10, but that's a skilled caster. And of course, that loses painfully much in terms of casting; with Unseen Seer, that'd be so much better.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 05:55 PM
Beguiler just get's all it's spells from its list. Easy! There are a few more options to customize it, and there's a handbook if you want:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322

See if you can get access to PHBII, by the way... but all you really need is that base class thing, to pg 148 and 174.

And remember, this is D&D 3.5e. REAL SPELLCASTERS WIN BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUPERPOWERS.

What does PHBII get me? Beguiler or...? Where IS Beguiler located by the by?


I'd just go straight Rogue with Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue)-variant, and pick up Hide in Plain Sight and Camouflage as two special abilities. This gets you HiPS on level 13, somewhat respectable. Then just go straight Rogue up to level 19 and take whatever on 20.

Maxing out Use Magic Device is rather key, and other than that just taking a bunch of skills and abusing the living out of them. The more efficient option would probably be Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10, but that's a skilled caster. And of course, that loses painfully much in terms of casting; with Unseen Seer, that'd be so much better.

Yeah Min maxing and optimisation are not my strong suits. So that first one's better.... Explain Wilderness Rogue variant and how I do that? That's SRD I presume?

lianightdemon
2010-09-30, 05:57 PM
Usually with the "thief" characters I've played I've tended to take anything that wasn't securely bolted to the floor

And when they are get a wrench and unbolt them. And if on fire put it out.

Eldariel
2010-09-30, 07:15 PM
What does PHBII get me? Beguiler or...? Where IS Beguiler located by the by?

Beguiler is in PHBII. That kinda answers both of your questions.


Yeah Min maxing and optimisation are not my strong suits. So that first one's better.... Explain Wilderness Rogue variant and how I do that? That's SRD I presume?

Wilderness Rogue just switches some skills around, and changes the list of special abilities you can acquire. And as it sounds, is a Rogue that's more at home in wilderness (and more primitive villages) than bustling cities. Though of course, it's not much work to make one at home in both. The benefit is, of course, being able to get Hide in Plain Sight (a very key Rogue ability) without multiclassing.

lsfreak
2010-09-30, 07:31 PM
Wilderness Rogue just switches some skills around, and changes the list of special abilities you can acquire. And as it sounds, is a Rogue that's more at home in wilderness (and more primitive villages) than bustling cities. Though of course, it's not much work to make one at home in both. The benefit is, of course, being able to get Hide in Plain Sight (a very key Rogue ability) without multiclassing.

Of course, it's the ranger's HipS, which only works in wilderness. It rapidly loses its usefulness in a city or dungeoneering campaign, unless you can get into a philosophical argument and convince your DM that buildings are natural via the nature of human animals. Well, or you convince him that you can chain ACF's together, and get the Urban Ranger's HipS (which can be used anywhere) for the Wilderness Rogue (which references rangers).

If you want ranged, than a good idea is to get either grab invisibility or hide in plain sight, though. Rogue7/Shadow Dancer 2, grabbing the ACF for evasion and Uncanny Dodge, is good, especially if you can get Mobility via an armor enhancement (MIC) and Evasive Reflexes instead of Combat Reflexes (ToB). Then get stuff to boost your Hide checks - Shadow Armor, high dex, and so on. You can hide while attacking with a -20 penalty, and therefore get sneak attack, and if your hide checks are high enough the -20 shouldn't matter all that often.

If your DM can be convinced on the ACF trading, that would work too, and would probably be better. It'll save you some feats in exchange for delaying it a few levels.

Another option is an Arcane Trickster build, going rogue1/wizard4/assassin1/arcane trickster10. It delays your nonmagical sneaky stuff in favor of getting Invisibility at level 4 and Greater Invisibility at level 9. Personally, I prefer the shadowdancer route for various reasons, not the least of being that magic is complex and you're a self-professed noob :smallsmile: Just bribe the party spellcaster to Greater Invisibility you before combat breaks out.

EDIT: I r spel gud.

ericgrau
2010-09-30, 07:32 PM
Lens of detection. 1250 gp for a +5 untyped bonus to search checks. Yes please. Oh, but it only works on traps and secret doors, what ever will I do?Elixir of vision. It's 250 gp and only lasts an hour, but it's a whopping +10 competence bonus to search checks. Stacks with the above. With this, the above and taking a 10 if it's there you'll find it.

Sorry I can't be of more use on the disabling side of things. My advice there is to send a summon or the party meat shield in after you think maybe or maybe not you disabled it.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 07:37 PM
Beguiler is in PHBII. That kinda answers both of your questions.



Wilderness Rogue just switches some skills around, and changes the list of special abilities you can acquire. And as it sounds, is a Rogue that's more at home in wilderness (and more primitive villages) than bustling cities. Though of course, it's not much work to make one at home in both. The benefit is, of course, being able to get Hide in Plain Sight (a very key Rogue ability) without multiclassing.

So I'm thinking of going Wilderness Rogue, like you good folk suggested.

However this appeals to me:

Bugbear
(MM p29)
+4 Str
+2 Dex
+2 Con
–2 Cha
Rogue • Medium Size
• 30’ Movement
• Darkvision 60’
• +3 Natural Armor bonus to AC
• 3HD Humanoid (goblinoid), which grants skill
points, Feats, BAB, & Base Save Bonuses.
• +4 Racial bonus to Move Silently checks
• Level Adjustment +1

I've asked the group I'm playing with but their currently not online and I'm curious....How do I work the 3HD Humanoid Goblin (skill points, feats, BAB, and BSB onto my character sheet? Do I add another 3 D6 hit dice? Do I take three more levels of skills +1 feat + 3 BAB?

Help? lol.

EDIT


Of course, it's the ranger's HipS, which only works in wilderness. It rapidly loses its usefulness in a city or dungeoneering campaign, unless you can get into a philosophical argument and convince your DM that buildings are natural via the nature of human animals. Well, or you convince him that you can chain ACF's together, and get the Urban Ranger's HipS (which can be used anywhere) for the Wilderness Rogue (which references rangers).

If you want ranged, than a good idea is to get either grab invisibility or hide in plain sight, though. Rogue7/Shadow Dancer 2, grabbing the ACF for evasion and Uncanny Dodge, is good, especially if you can get Mobility via an armor enhancement (MIC) and Evasive Reflexes instead of Combat Reflexes (ToB). Then get stuff to boost your Hide checks - Shadow Armor, high dex, and so on. You can hide while attacking with a -20 penalty, and therefore get sneak attack, and if your hide checks are high enough the -20 shouldn't matter all that often.

If your DM can be convinced on the ACF trading, that would work too, and would probably be better. It'll save you some feats in exchange for delaying it a few levels.

Another option is an Arcane Trickster build, going rogue1/wizard4/assassin1/arcane trickster10. It delays your nonmagical sneaky stuff in favor of getting Invisibility at level 4 and Greater Invisibility at level 9. Personally, I prefer the shadowdancer route for various reasons, not the least of being that magic is complex and you're a self-professed noob Just bribe the party spellcaster to Greater Invisibility you before combat breaks out.


I've always loved Shadow Dancer. So what I'm considering now is Rogue 18/Shadow Dancer 2 as a bugbear due to the high strength and dex bonuses allowing me to Sneak Attack the crap out of people.

Urpriest
2010-09-30, 07:46 PM
Being a Bugbear means you trade four levels of rogue for three "levels of humanoid"...it's not a great trade. The racial stats sound good, but you'll be more than a level behind on most things even taking them into account. I wouldn't recommend it.

Edit: More detail: a character with a level adjustment counts as one level higher than they otherwise would. A character with racial hit dice adds them to their level to determine their total level. Your Effective Character Level (ECL) is your total hit dice from all your classes/race, plus your level adjustment, and it determines how much XP you get and what level you start at. So a first level Bugbear rogue can only join a campaign with 5th level characters.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 07:48 PM
Being a Bugbear means you trade four levels of rogue for three "levels of humanoid"...it's not a great trade. The racial stats sound good, but you'll be more than a level behind on most things even taking them into account. I wouldn't recommend it.

Oh bugger that.

Okay then well best race so far then seems to be Wood Elf. For the good bonuses to Strength and Dex. Which seems pretty decent.

Or stay Whisper Folk gnome and go the ranged route, taking Weapon Finesse as well to nullify my strength penalty?

That being said...I reallllly like sneak attack. :smalltongue:

lsfreak
2010-09-30, 07:58 PM
Oh bugger that.

Okay then well best race so far then seems to be Wood Elf. For the good bonuses to Strength and Dex. Which seems pretty decent.

Or stay Whisper Folk gnome and go the ranged route, taking Weapon Finesse as well to nullify my strength penalty?

That being said...I reallllly like sneak attack. :smalltongue:

Elves have the disadvantage of -Con, which is... not at all good. Especially if you're trying to go melee. If you're going ranged, you don't need weapon finesse. I'd say stick with whisper gnome, get a way to be invisible and/or HipS and boost your Hide checks through the roof, and have fun sneak attacking stuff with a bow.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 08:04 PM
Elves have the disadvantage of -Con, which is... not at all good. Especially if you're trying to go melee. If you're going ranged, you don't need weapon finesse. I'd say stick with whisper gnome, get a way to be invisible and/or HipS and boost your Hide checks through the roof, and have fun sneak attacking stuff with a bow.

Sorry. What? I can sneak attack with a ranged weapon!?

lsfreak
2010-09-30, 08:11 PM
Sorry. What? I can sneak attack with a ranged weapon!?

Of course! Your enemy just has to be denied their Dex to AC from the attack, since you can't flank with a ranged weapon. This generally means you catch them unaware (boost your initiative and hit them during the surprise round), use the spell Greater Invisibility or something similar, or boost your Hide into the mid-30's or more around level 10 and take the -20 at Hide while attacking. A Ring of Blinking works too, but does give you a 20% miss chance. You have to be within 30 feet of your target, but yes, you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 08:18 PM
Of course! Your enemy just has to be denied their Dex to AC from the attack, since you can't flank with a ranged weapon. This generally means you catch them unaware (boost your initiative and hit them during the surprise round), use the spell Greater Invisibility or something similar, or boost your Hide into the mid-30's or more around level 10 and take the -20 at Hide while attacking. A Ring of Blinking works too, but does give you a 20% miss chance. You have to be within 30 feet of your target, but yes, you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon.

Holy CRAP. Then whisper gnome it is for sure.

Weapon of choice.....Hand Crossbow? Presumably? Since I can't get anything else due to class restrictions? lol.

Lev
2010-09-30, 08:19 PM
Be a pixie.

Benly
2010-09-30, 08:21 PM
Weapon of choice.....Hand Crossbow? Presumably? Since I can't get anything else due to class restrictions? lol.

Hand crossbow has good feat support, so if you're willing to throw feats at it it's a good choice. If you're not up to putting feats into it, the shortbow will be generally superior due to lack of loading time.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 08:23 PM
Be a pixie.

+4 LA though?


Hand crossbow has good feat support, so if you're willing to throw feats at it it's a good choice. If you're not up to putting feats into it, the shortbow will be generally superior due to lack of loading time.

It does? What feat support? lol. Also rapid fire would work well with short bow yes? Two attacks in a round....both get Sneak Attack?

lsfreak
2010-09-30, 08:34 PM
+4 LA though?
It is, but it's on of the only ones that's worth it. Greater invisibility as a spell-like ability is win and awesome. Rogue pixies and warlock pixies can be great, but the +4LA can hurt if you don't know what you're doing or if you're starting at low level.


It does? What feat support? lol. Also rapid fire would work well with short bow yes? Two attacks in a round....both get Sneak Attack?

Hand Crossbow Focus from Drow of the Underdark. If you go crossbow, you'd want that, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot for sure. If you go shortbow, you can drop Hand Crossbow Focus in order to get into Shadowdancer sooner, since you'll need 2 feats for that.

To enter Shadowdancer, you need:
Dodge. You can get the normal one, but grabbing Midnight Dodge (Magic of Incarnum) is strictly better (Incarnum is complex, but just the one feat will shouldn't be hard). Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild, move 40 feet a round, gain +2AC for the round) isn't good for a rogue, and Desert Wind Dodge (Tome of Battle, move 10 feet for +1AC and +1fire damage to melee attacks) is more useful, but the prereqs aren't good.
Mobility. There's an armor enhancement from Magic Item Compendium you'll want to get instead. Just don't take the armor off.
Combat Reflexes. Tome of Battle has Evasive Reflexes instead; if someone provokes you get a free 5-foot step instead of taking an AoO, which you can't do anywho because you're wielding a bow.

Benly
2010-09-30, 08:34 PM
It does? What feat support? lol. Also rapid fire would work well with short bow yes? Two attacks in a round....both get Sneak Attack?

Hand Crossbow Focus from Drow Of The Underdark is essentially combined Weapon Focus and Rapid Reload. Crossbow Sniper from PHBII lets you add half your Dex to crossbow damage and increase your sneak attack range with crossbows. I don't know if they're available on Crystalkeep; I'm never sure what they have and haven't archived.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 08:38 PM
Hand Crossbow Focus from Drow Of The Underdark is essentially combined Weapon Focus and Rapid Reload. Crossbow Sniper from PHBII lets you add half your Dex to crossbow damage and increase your sneak attack range with crossbows. I don't know if they're available on Crystalkeep; I'm never sure what they have and haven't archived.

That's awesome. Weapon focus+Rapid Reload ftw....I haven't seen it on crystal keep though. Hmm it'd have to be available somewhere online so A) I know the rules and B) I can show it to the DM. Crossbow sniper is a given for a ranged character me thinks.


It is, but it's on of the only ones that's worth it. Greater invisibility as a spell-like ability is win and awesome. Rogue pixies and warlock pixies can be great, but the +4LA can hurt if you don't know what you're doing or if you're starting at low level.

Hand Crossbow Focus from Drow of the Underdark. If you go crossbow, you'd want that, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot for sure. If you go shortbow, you can drop Hand Crossbow Focus in order to get into Shadowdancer sooner, since you'll need 2 feats for that.

To enter Shadowdancer, you need:
Dodge. You can get the normal one, but grabbing Midnight Dodge (Magic of Incarnum) is strictly better (Incarnum is complex, but just the one feat will shouldn't be hard). Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild, move 40 feet a round, gain +2AC for the round) isn't good for a rogue, and Desert Wind Dodge (Tome of Battle, move 10 feet for +1AC and +1fire damage to melee attacks) is more useful, but the prereqs aren't good.
Mobility. There's an armor enhancement from Magic Item Compendium you'll want to get instead. Just don't take the armor off.
Combat Reflexes. Tome of Battle has Evasive Reflexes instead; if someone provokes you get a free 5-foot step instead of taking an AoO, which you can't do anywho because you're wielding a bow.

Okay. So we are starting at level 2. We asked for level 7 but no go.... So I shall ask you forum goers. Is Pixie worth it for such a low level starting game? And if I took Pixie I wouldn't need shadow dancer

Benly
2010-09-30, 08:55 PM
That's awesome. Weapon focus+Rapid Reload ftw....I haven't seen it on crystal keep though. Hmm it'd have to be available somewhere online so A) I know the rules and B) I can show it to the DM. Crossbow sniper is a given for a ranged character me thinks.


There's a list of the feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=2) available online, but it's only the feat table and not full descriptions. Hand Crossbow Focus gives most of the information there, but that listing fails to mention that HCF counts as Weapon Focus: Crossbow for further feat qualification as well.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 08:59 PM
You guys rock at this helping a noob thing :-P

ericgrau
2010-09-30, 09:10 PM
Pixie is awesome. Levels 1-2 or so will be brutal, but with flight, greater invisibility, DR 10, high SR, rogue evasion and some luck hopefully you won't even get hit once. B/c the first time you do it's over. Up to you if you want to gamble it until higher levels.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 09:13 PM
Pixie is awesome. Levels 1-2 or so will be brutal, but with flight, greater invisibility, DR 10, high SR, rogue evasion and some luck hopefully you won't even get hit once. B/c the first time you do it's over. Up to you if you want to gamble it until higher levels.

You're really making me want the pixie. You guys are killing me. lol.

Draz74
2010-09-30, 09:26 PM
Pixie can be fun, but ... let's be honest. Whisper Gnome is stronger. Silence spell-like ability is almost as cool as invisibility (since it's harder to counter!).

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 09:29 PM
Pixie can be fun, but ... let's be honest. Whisper Gnome is stronger. Silence spell-like ability is almost as cool as invisibility (since it's harder to counter!).

Changed the sheet. I'm a pixie. The bonuses were too much to pass up on the ability score front, plus constant invisibility is awesome....The SR and DR helped a lot in the convincing as well.

Dark_Nohn
2010-09-30, 09:34 PM
Pixies are good to play, and have that nice +8 Dex and a crapload of plusses to their mental ability scores... but you'll also be behind everyone else as far as class features. The only time it was a good choice for me is in a campaign when +3 was the minimum level adjustment.

As far as a class goes for a thief, I'd suggest the Spellthief. As a half-caster, it's a good way to ease you into spell usage, as well as the ability to steal higher level spells that you can experiment with when the time comes.
The class doesn't match up to either sorcerer or rogue in either of their respective fields, but if your theme is as a thief, this is one of the best classes to go for, except for Sleight of Hand being (cc), but not many thieves I've seen pick that up because it's only good for lifting a few gold at a time off of low level NPCs. Also note that you can, but probably wouldn't want to turn it into an acrobat-style fighter with 6+int instead of 8+int for your skills, and having so many others to cover (trapfinding, hiding, perceptions, and NEVER skip out on bluff.)

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 09:37 PM
Pixies are good to play, and have that nice +8 Dex and a crapload of plusses to their mental ability scores... but you'll also be behind everyone else as far as class features. The only time it was a good choice for me is in a campaign when +3 was the minimum level adjustment.

As far as a class goes for a thief, I'd suggest the Spellthief. As a half-caster, it's a good way to ease you into spell usage, as well as the ability to steal higher level spells that you can experiment with when the time comes.
The class doesn't match up to either sorcerer or rogue in either of their respective fields, but if your theme is as a thief, this is one of the best classes to go for, except for Sleight of Hand being (cc), but not many thieves I've seen pick that up because it's only good for lifting a few gold at a time off of low level NPCs. Also note that you can, but probably wouldn't want to turn it into an acrobat-style fighter with 6+int instead of 8+int for your skills, and having so many others to cover (trapfinding, hiding, perceptions, and NEVER skip out on bluff.)

Bluff and diplomacy are maxed.

So is a pixie rogue/spell thief a good combination?

I love the pixie...I think I'm just going to have to hang at least 30 feet back out of combat at all times.

Finally...Why is bluff and diplomacy so valued as a thief?

Dark_Nohn
2010-09-30, 09:45 PM
Not sure if multiclassing rogue and spellthief is a great idea, it's usually better to single class... multiclassing tends to be better with a min/maxing design in play, which spellthiefs are really not designed for.

As for playing a pixie rogue or spellthief, it's all up to you, you'll likely gain in stats what you lack up in spell levels, but you'll also be behind the curve when it comes to either your sneak attack abilities, or your spellstealing abilities, as well as your attack bonus.
Also, 30' is the maximum range for sneak attacks, so keep on the border, take point blank and precise shot as well.

Bluff is your characters ability to lie to get out of situations, like getting the law officer to believe whatever alibi or excuse you can come up with, also used well for conning people if you're closer to the evil side of the spectrum.
Not sure about diplomacy for a thief. As a more leader type I can see its value (clerics, paladins, sorcerers even sometimes) as it's more useful for getting people to trust you as a person than it is for getting out of sticky situations, "but while you're the teams liar, why not be the teams negotiator as well" I think is the reasoning behind Diplomacy

Draz74
2010-09-30, 09:50 PM
Finally...Why is bluff and diplomacy so valued as a thief?

Go watch a few episodes of White Collar on Hulu. You'll understand. :smallamused:

Tetrasodium
2010-09-30, 09:53 PM
looks iffy on if it would be allowed or not, but a Hook of Dissolution from BoVD is a nice thief item for some types of thieves... disintegrates a helpless/dead target you hook with it whenever you use it, but only about 14k gp. Never leave behind a corpse again :).

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 10:10 PM
Not sure if multiclassing rogue and spellthief is a great idea, it's usually better to single class... multiclassing tends to be better with a min/maxing design in play, which spellthiefs are really not designed for.

Didn't even know you could single class spell thief. Told you....Noob.


As for playing a pixie rogue or spellthief, it's all up to you, you'll likely gain in stats what you lack up in spell levels, but you'll also be behind the curve when it comes to either your sneak attack abilities, or your spellstealing abilities, as well as your attack bonus.

Looking at the table for a straight pixie rogue...I technically only lose one dice of sneak attack don't I? Or is it two?


Also, 30' is the maximum range for sneak attacks, so keep on the border, take point blank and precise shot as well.

At the moment my feats (Including pixie feats) at first level rogue are:

hand crossbow focus, point blank shot, crossbow sniper and dodge. At level 3 I'll take precise shot.. Then next feat I'll take rapid shot.


Bluff is your characters ability to lie to get out of situations, like getting the law officer to believe whatever alibi or excuse you can come up with, also used well for conning people if you're closer to the evil side of the spectrum.
Not sure about diplomacy for a thief. As a more leader type I can see its value (clerics, paladins, sorcerers even sometimes) as it's more useful for getting people to trust you as a person than it is for getting out of sticky situations, "but while you're the teams liar, why not be the teams negotiator as well" I think is the reasoning behind Diplomacy

Hmmm I took both because I had the skill points to shell out (especially with that boost from pixie)


looks iffy on if it would be allowed or not, but a Hook of Dissolution from BoVD is a nice thief item for some types of thieves... disintegrates a helpless/dead target you hook with it whenever you use it, but only about 14k gp. Never leave behind a corpse again :).

Oh I love that. I'll be getting that at later levels. lol.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-30, 11:25 PM
Oh I love that. I'll be getting that at later levels. lol.

Yea, the hook is a great little toy for replacing paladin upsetting doorstops with a little pile of dust and few bits of quickly sortable/hidable loot.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 11:30 PM
Yea, the hook is a great little toy for replacing paladin upsetting doorstops with a little pile of dust and few bits of quickly sortable/hidable loot.

Sounds it! Pixie thief with hand crossbow skills and that hook it is! Hopefully she'll pan out better than my draconic elf void dragon knight. *fingers crossed*

ericgrau
2010-09-30, 11:46 PM
Rapid shot is a must ASAP, especially since every shot will be a sneak attack. If you only have 1 melee ally you might be able to find foes that aren't in melee then you might be able to put off precise shot until later. Otherwise it's a tough choice. I mean, deal about 50%+ more damage (2x attacks ya, but -2 to hit), or stand an extra 30' away from doom and get ~+4 damage (about equal to another die of damage)...

As soon as you can afford it get boots of speed or beg the caster for haste to get a 3rd attack and a +1 to hit.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 11:47 PM
Rapid shot is a must ASAP, especially since every shot will be a sneak attack. If you only have 1 melee ally you might be able to find foes that aren't in melee then you might be able to put off precise shot until later. Otherwise it's a tough choice. I mean, deal about 50%+ more damage (2x attacks ya, but -2 to hit), or stand an extra 30' away from doom...

As soon as you can afford it get boots of speed or beg the caster for haste to get a 3rd attack and a +1 to hit.

So would you say drop crossbow sniper for rapid shot? Because crossbow sniper at the moment will only net me an extra 3 damage...Where as a second sneak attack on the same creature will net me 1d3+1d6 extra...

I didn't know I could sneak attack the same thing twice?

ericgrau
2010-09-30, 11:50 PM
Oh yes. As long as he is flat footed against all attacks, which he is because pixie greater invisibility doesn't end when you attack. With only +1d6 sneak attack I think they'll be about equal in damage (including rapid shot's -2 to hit) and thus you'd want sniper for range. But as soon as you hit level 3 for +2d6 sneak attack the extra attack is better.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 11:52 PM
Oh yes. As long as he is flat footed against all attacks, which he is because pixie greater invisibility doesn't end when you attack. With only +1d6 sneak attack I think they'll be about equal in damage and thus you'd want sniper for range. But as soon as you hit level 3 the extra attack is better.

I think I'll grab rapid shot for now then, considering my attack bonus is so high with a crossbow due to pixie benefits, that -2 won't hurt all too much.

Fantastic. You guys are awesome.

ericgrau
2010-09-30, 11:55 PM
Oh ya, I forgot the +2 from being invisible and denying dex on top of your normal bonuses will make hitting a lot easier. Ya, the -2 shouldn't be as bad.

zenanarchist
2010-09-30, 11:56 PM
Oh ya, I forgot the +2 from being invisible and denying dex on top of your normal bonuses will make hitting a lot easier. Ya, the -2 shouldn't be as bad.

...Huh? What's +2? Are you serious? MORE bonuses? +2 from what?

ericgrau
2010-09-30, 11:59 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm
"Hello sir, you say you are invisible, have yet another +2 to hit on the house."

The drawback though is that a fireball aimed at an ally may insta-fry you if you're so close until you get sniper. Your call :smallbiggrin:.

zenanarchist
2010-10-01, 12:01 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm
"Hello sir, you say you are invisible, have yet another +2 to hit on the house."

Holy crap....With Hand Crossbow focus, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot and being a pixie...

That gives me +8/+8 to hit after penalties with my hand crossbow dealing

1d3+1d6/1d3+1d6 like every round. Then at level 3 when I get Crossbow Sniper I'd be at +9/+9

and 1d3+4+1d6/1d3+4+1d6.

Holy. Yeah....Yeah I see why people take pixies.

Lev
2010-10-01, 02:23 AM
+4 LA though?
Flight and invisibility, no more move silently or hide checks, float right by enemies.

ffone
2010-10-01, 02:31 AM
To avoid area effect spells, position your pixie in places enemies don't expect, and which are unlikely to hit when you when they your visible allies (such as places that would put an enemy in the area too).

Fortunately in DnD there's zero ability (I think?) to detect which *direction* damage came from? The DM may use the sniping rules to give you a -20 on the DC to be spotted right after you attacked (even though you're not trying to 'Hide' per se), but that 'just' reduces the +40 Hide from invis to +20. Which is sorta how DnD handles detecting directional damage.

Of course, nothing can stop the DM from metagame knowing where she is.

Playing pixie from L1 sounds like an interesting proposition: I agree, try to literally never get hit for a couple of levels, a fun challenge in and of itself. Fortunately, DR 10/cold iron (have you ever fought a foe with cold iron weapons? unlikely unless the DM metagames or has villains specifically hunting the PCs with knowledge about them) will zero out most damage from low level foes. Especially since the lowish CR heavy hitters tend to not have special abilities like fly, see invis, blindsight, etc.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-01, 04:02 AM
Oh, uhmm... I forgot about this too...
For an excellent change of pace, you could instead do a ghost with Telekinesis, blinking in and out of the ethereal plane and doing an Alpha Strike with 12 telekinetically wielded throwing daggers... 1d4 [19-20x2] plus sneak attack... 12 times... but the +5 level adjustment is kinda gut-wrenching

zenanarchist
2010-10-01, 05:17 AM
DM will never let ghost fly...

So let's hope that he lets a +4 LA race fly at first level. Also good advice RE: hiding in places enemies wouldn't expect. I'll definitely be in the weirdest of places I can think of. Also....Our DM's actually pretty great, he let's a lot of my silly stuff due to noobness slip. So I doubt he'll metagame knowledge the invisible pixies location

bartman
2010-10-01, 09:59 AM
One thing to keep in mind, As soon as you fire off one of your arrows, that arrow is no longer in your possession, and hence becomes visible. I don't know what the DC would be to spot an arrow flying out of nowhere in combat, but I am sure your DM will consider doing it to if not pinpoint your location, get the 5' square you shot from. If that comes up, I would conside some way to move as a swift action. My favorite is Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, table of feats can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070504a&page=2 ), Move your land speed as a swift action. Useable once/day for 1 minute unless you burn turn undead attempts (which you will not have). There is also the option to take a 5 foot step after each attack, which doesnt cost you a feat.

lsfreak
2010-10-01, 01:29 PM
DM will never let ghost fly...

So let's hope that he lets a +4 LA race fly at first level. Also good advice RE: hiding in places enemies wouldn't expect. I'll definitely be in the weirdest of places I can think of. Also....Our DM's actually pretty great, he let's a lot of my silly stuff due to noobness slip. So I doubt he'll metagame knowledge the invisible pixies location

Yea... that might be a problem. You're not supposed to be able to play a pixie until 5th level.

Also, you mentioned something about feats given by pixie, but that's not how it works. You'll be a 1st level rogue, with 4 'virtual' levels - you get nothing from them at all beyond the racial stats that being a pixie gives, like invisibility and awesome boosts to your ability scores. No feats, skills, hit points, or anything. The other problem is that you're effectively a 5th level character right now - while means you won't be getting your first level for a very, very long time. That means you'll have to deal with your 6+Con hit points and your single feat for a long time.

ericgrau
2010-10-01, 01:40 PM
Ya but before 5th level nothing has fireball, breath weapons or similar abilities. Everything that is AoE has a tiny radius, is very difficult to aim, and even then might not finish him off or has a very high chance of being defeated by his SR or DR or reflex save + evasion. I think the biggest issue is getting the DM to approve a PC that's higher level than everyone else. Possible solution: Savage Species has pixie progression IIRC. I'd simply replace the level 1 HD with a class level.

On finding an invisible creature: There ARE rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) for finding the general direction that attack came from. When you attack the enemy gets a listen vs. your hide at a -20 penalty and a DC 20 spot check. If the enemy succeeds he only knows the general direction to where you are. He must beat the DC by 20 to find which square you are in and even then he can't actually see you, he merely saw some visual clue that gave away your location. So a wizard with a good listen skill could fireball you into oblivion but even then he'd have to beat both your SR and reflex save and if he didn't roll high or if you moved he'd have to guestimate where to place the fireball. These rules are also under special abilities => invisibility in the DMG, which you may want to point out the DM b/c invisibility and blindness can lead to accusations of OPness or at least DM frustration otherwise.

lsfreak
2010-10-01, 02:11 PM
I think the big problem in this situation is being feat-starved. He's a 5th-level character with Hand Crossbow Focus as his only feat (and he's playing in a 2nd-level campaign). At 7th level he grabs Point Blank Shot and at 10th Rapid Shot. That's awfully late, and he's still got Precise Shot, Crossbow Sniper, and/or Craven to go.

EDIT: Of course, come to think of it, I guess that's not really any worse than dumping feats on Dodge + Evasive Reflexes to get HipS.

Person_Man
2010-10-01, 02:37 PM
The best way to be a thief is with magic. Glibness, Disguise Self, Invisibility, Silence, Shatter, Knock, etc. Magic solves most tasks much more effectively then Skills in most cases. If you must have both, then Beguiler or Factotum is the way to go.

Additional Options:

Changeling: +10 to Disguise, +2 Bluff, +2 Intimidate, +2 Sense Motive.
Binder 1 with Naberius vestige gets +10 to Disguise, the ability to Take 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy, ability to make Diplomacy checks as a standard action with no penalty (normally it's a full round action and you take it at a -10), Command (as per the spell) at will once every 5 rounds, and you can attempt "Trained Only" Skills (all Knowledge checks, Decipher Script, UMD, etc) as if they were trained.
There are several soulmelds which add 4 + (2 * essentia) Insight or Competence bonuses to pretty much any Skill. You can also get easy access to Read Thoughts, Telepathy, Ethereal movement, Darkness, and a lot of other helpful thief-ish abilities.
Marshal can add their Can add Cha bonus to pretty much anything.

zenanarchist
2010-10-01, 09:25 PM
If the DM says no to the pixie I may have to go Factotum or Beguiler....and some how pull a table and class features list from the nether...If anyone happens to have these, feel free to PM me..


However I am sort of hoping that the DM let's the pixie fly. Simply because I'm not an optimiser so I can't really abuse it in anyway.

Also, I'm not "feat starved" per se, We get flaw/feat trade off. So despite being level 1 I actually have 3 feats to pick....Hand Crossbow focus, Point Blank Shot and Rapid shot respectively is what I ran with. My dexterity is now at 23. Due to pixie awesomeness.

JaronK
2010-10-02, 03:23 AM
You can't be a real thief unless you have Shrink Item, so as to steal everything that's otherwise too big to steal.

JaronK

ffone
2010-10-02, 04:43 AM
However I am sort of hoping that the DM let's the pixie fly.

...with good maneuverability, at that.

zenanarchist
2010-10-03, 04:49 PM
He won't let me take Pixie til Level 5. Damn.

Guys, any opinion on scout?

Gavinfoxx
2010-10-03, 05:52 PM
Whisper Gnome Beguiler!

zenanarchist
2010-10-03, 05:54 PM
Whisper Gnome Beguiler!

Ahaha that is not a scout. I got very interested in the idea of a hit and run scout (spring attack with 70' base land speed by level 4)

Greenish
2010-10-03, 05:54 PM
Guys, any opinion on scout?Needs a way to gain pounce or free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). Works best with Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0).

Gavinfoxx
2010-10-03, 05:57 PM
Ahaha that is not a scout. I got very interested in the idea of a hit and run scout (spring attack with 70' base land speed by level 4)

Basically read the Swift Hunter handbook.

zenanarchist
2010-10-03, 06:07 PM
Needs a way to gain pounce or free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). Works best with Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0).


Basically read the Swift Hunter handbook.

Never thought of Fly By Attack. Look at you guys go.