ToB Crusader newbie questions

[aeauseth]

I just built a Crusader10/Warblade1 based on advice from Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies).

I built this character to replace (per DM request) an overpowered Tier1 Cleric/Warlock/EldritchDiciple with DMM. I like challenges and ToB is completly new to me.

This is my first experience with maneuvers and ToB, but after a couple of encounters I think I'm getting the hang of things.

In melee I'm quite powerful. I'm pretty sure I can use a stance, strike maneuver, and a boost/counter all in 1 round. With thicket of blades, large spiked chaing and combat reflexes I get in quite a few AOOs as well.

Redied Maneuvers:

DS: Revitalzing Strike
DS: Shield Block
DS: Defensive Rebuke
DS: Divine Surge
WR: Flanking Maneuver
WR: White Raven Tactics
IH: Iron Heart Surge
IH: Moment of Perfect Mind
IH: Wall of Blades

Stances:

DS: Thicket of Blades
DS: Iron Guard's Glare
DS: Martial Spirit
IH: Punishing Stance

My Melee Tactics: My AC is 31 and I'm leveraging the flanking maneuvers with our party rogue. So far I haven't used steely resolve much (due to high AC). Also using Stand Still feat to keep most foes near me.

My Ranged Tactics: Close to melee. Use bow if unable to close, although no maneuvers (that I know of) work with ranged attacks.

Other party members: Druid, Psion, Rogue, Paladin.

But now on to the questions?


Can I use a standard action strike maneuver during an AOO?
What are the typical crusader tactics for ranged battles?

[DownwardSpiral]

But now on to the questions?


Can I use a standard action strike maneuver during an AOO?
What are the typical crusader tactics for ranged battles?



1 - Nope. You have to settle for just normal attacks like the rest of us. =p

2. You answered your own question:

My Ranged Tactics: Close to melee.

You're correct that none of the disciplines offer ranged maneuvers*, but some of the homebrewers here made their own. I see that you have a couple casters in your party. Beg for a fly spell?


EDIT: save for Lightning Throw.....but that's ironheart only. And some of those desert wind ones, but those are swordsage only. =p

[Keld Denar]

And the Xing Mongoose, but Crusaders don't get those, and Time Stands Still, which you also won't get.

Honestly, your best option with ranged combat is to buckle down and invest some cashola. Short range teleports aren't that expensive (Boots of Big Stepping, Bolt Shirt, Aporter armor, etc) or some flight (Winged Boots are cheap but limited). A feat (or item) could pick you up Shadow Stride? the 2nd level standard action one as well. These items will serve you well throughout your entire career.

[AslanCross]

For less conventional ranged tactics, go Bloodstorm Blade. It's perhaps THE best throwing weapon PrC (Hulking Hurler does not exist).

[aeauseth]

1 - Nope. You have to settle for just normal attacks like the rest of us. =p


I didn't like your answer (no surprise), so I did a bit more research.

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm)an attack of opportunity is a single melee attack. I reread the Martial Strike rules (ToB42-43) and I see nothing the specifically excludes using a martial strike with an AOO. Is there a specific rule that addresses this situation? Is there a rule you are extrapolation from? Or are you just guessing?

[Reynard]

Most maneuvers are standard actions. Those that aren't are either Boosts, which usually aren't attacks, or Counters, which only really work if you're the one being attacked.

[DragoonWraith]

The Initiating Action of most Strikes is 1 Standard Action. AoOs don't give you a Standard Action, just an Attack. Therefore, you don't have the action necessary to use one that way.

There's a homebrew discipline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103406) that has a 5th level Counter that allows you to use a Strike for an AoO. That's using 2 maneuvers and an Immediate Action to achieve what you want for just 1 maneuver. Just to give you an idea on the balance here.

[Keld Denar]

An AoO is an attack action. You can make any attack classified as an attack action.

A strike is a standard action that includes an attack. Think of it like casting a touch spell. There is the initiating of the manevuer (standard action) and the attack that goes with it (attack). Except you can't "hold the charge" on a strike if you miss.

Its the same reason you can't execute a strike during a charge (unless its explicitly a charge oriented strike like Warleader's Chage). At the end of a charge, you get an attack action. You can do something like a disarm, a grapple, a trip, or just hit the guy, but it has to be an attack action.

[Susano-wo]

THe only problem with Bloodstorm blade is, unless he's planning on pumping more Warblade, it only works with Iron Heart Maneuvers (IIRC).

BUt yeah, there are limited options for Warblade and Swordsage, but I can't think of anything for Ironheart. (but getting those flying boots or having your casters cast fly on you in such situations is probably ideal. If they really complain about the action, you can WRtactics them :P)

[aeauseth]

The Initiating Action of most Strikes is 1 Standard Action. AoOs don't give you a Standard Action, just an Attack. Therefore, you don't have the action necessary to use one that way.

Ah, I reread the maneuvers and I agree that you (and others) are correct. I was glossing over Initiation Action and going straight to Strike.

[Snake-Aes]

Ah, I reread the maneuvers and I agree that you (and others) are correct. I was glossing over Initiation Action and going straight to Strike.

I was a little alarmed when you said "I can use a stance, a maneuver and a boost all in the same round".
You can, but not because they can all be activated together.
Stances are buffs that remain active for as long as your character can move. Switching a stance is a swift action.

If you activate a stance, you can't use a boost on that round because you used your swift action to activate a stance.

[aeauseth]

THe only problem with Bloodstorm blade is, unless he's planning on pumping more Warblade, it only works with Iron Heart Maneuvers (IIRC).

Guide I was following was for a Crusader16/Warblade4. I may tweak depending on DM and my play style.

It appears Bloodstorm blade PrC would use throw anything (or a returning weapon with 10' range increment) for ranged attacks. Maximum range is 10x5 (I think) = 50 ft with a tohit adjustment of -2x4= -8. Granted I get fighter BAB bonus, but a -8 could be an issue.

For flying foes this is sorta OK, depends if range is 50 or less, but the maneuvers should work as normal. Does the dragon flyby and attack with his claws, or hover 55+ ft up and use his breath weapon?

For on the ground ranged I'd probably just charge or run to the foe.

Aquiring flight seems to be the best solution to my ranged problem. Bloodstorm blade is interesting, but seems too situational.

[Susano-wo]

another thing to do regarding flight. I can't remember what its called, but there is a spell that locks flying creatures to the ground...I think its in spell compendium. You could Either have the casters cast it, or try to get an item that activates it x times a day.

(personally, for most of my melee characters, having them fly would seem odd, visual design/concept wise, so I'd rather have a cool item that brought them down to earth for me to wail on. BUt flight boots are definitely the easiest solution, and have the most utility, since it would give you aditional mobility when moving around as well)

[aeauseth]

another thing to do regarding flight. I can't remember what its called, but there is a spell that locks flying creatures to the ground...I think its in spell compendium. You could Either have the casters cast it, or try to get an item that activates it x times a day.

(personally, for most of my melee characters, having them fly would seem odd, visual design/concept wise, so I'd rather have a cool item that brought them down to earth for me to wail on. BUt flight boots are definitely the easiest solution, and have the most utility, since it would give you aditional mobility when moving around as well)

I believe you are referring to the spell DOWNDRAFT. It has SR so if put in a wondrous item a typical dragon of my CR would probably be unaffected.

I really appreaciate your post, particurarly about the odd theme of a flying crusader. I agree that I'd prefer not to fly. I'm prety sure I can get our Druid to memorize DOWNDRAFT, she'd have a better chance with the SR issue.

[Keld Denar]

Wingbind. Its a terrible spell. Allows SR AND a save. Dragons have good saves. You're odds of a caster hitting with it are low.

The best way to ground a dragon is with Solid Fog, assuming the dragon doesn't have better than average manevuerability (such as from magic/items/feats/etc). You cast the fog so that when the dragon moves 10' forward, he will no longer be affected by the cloud. Flight requires a certain amount of forward movement to prevent a stall, or to be able to turn. Thus, the dragon is pretty much locked into flying 10' forward which isn't enough to maintain flight, inducing a stall. Stalled fliers fall like, 180' in the first round. The caster just did ~18d6 with a 4th level spell, no save, no SR, no attack roll, depending on height. Now that the dragon is grounded, you can charge it or move up to it and use a strike. Hopefully another caster will cast another Solid Fog centered about 10' above the dragon. This will effectively keep it from taking off again and restrict it from taking 5' steps. Then you just surround it so it can't breath on more than one of you at a time and hack it into little tiny dragon kibbles.

[Susano-wo]

This makes me sad, since the spell sounds so cool. :P
Though I suppose it would still be good on a lot of fliers, just not, say, dragons, Demons, etc

[Master_Rahl22]

Also, please keep in mind since it's not clear from the OP that your maneuvers known and readied are seperate pools if you have levels in more than one martial class. You have a pool of known and readied maneuvers for your 10 Crusader levels, and a seperate pool of known and readied maneuvers for your Warblade level. Thus, you can't get Iron Heart Surge to come up in your granted Crusader maneuvers, and you can't refresh Divine Surge by spending a swift action and then attacking like a Warblade would.

[DragoonWraith]

Also, please keep in mind since it's not clear from the OP that your maneuvers known and readied are seperate pools if you have levels in more than one martial class. You have a pool of known and readied maneuvers for your 10 Crusader levels, and a seperate pool of known and readied maneuvers for your Warblade level. Thus, you can't get Iron Heart Surge to come up in your granted Crusader maneuvers, and you can't refresh Divine Surge by spending a swift action and then attacking like a Warblade would.
Actually, RAW there is debatable. We had the debate a few days ago.

My perspective:
You can't learn a maneuver more than once, because you either know a maneuver or you don't. There are not separate pools for separate classes.
You can't ready a maneuver more than once, just because you can't.
You can ready a maneuver you know as any class you have.

[Susano-wo]

hey, don't have TOB in front of me (Need to stop doing this at work >.>), but I remember wondering about the readying multiples of a maneuver question, and I couldn't find anythign conclusive. It just talks about readying X maneuvers, doesn't it?

And now that I think about it, I don't know if it specifies whether maneuvers are shared either. (I can see the logic in just knowing it or not, but at the same time, if you learned how to do this or that technique under this or that form, it can be reasoned that you only know how to use it in that form. This makes about as much sense as expending maneuvers, and spellcasters having to keep separate lists, even if they, for some reason, have 2 Int casting classes.)

You do, however, have to keep seperate track of which you have readied under which class, since it determines which revocery mechanic you use.

{lastly, I could not find the thread you meantioned, Dragoon. do you remember the title?}

[Siosilvar]

hey, don't have TOB in front of me (Need to stop doing this at work >.>), but I remember wondering about the readying multiples of a maneuver question, and I couldn't find anythign conclusive. It just talks about readying X maneuvers, doesn't it?

There's a line somewhere that specifically states you can't ready a maneuver more than once. Let me find it...

EDIT: Hmm. Can't seem to find it in the book.

It may have been in FAQ or the part of errata that's actually ToB errata.

[Douglas]

There's a line somewhere that specifically states you can't ready a maneuver more than once. Let me find it...
It only gets that explicit in the ToB FAQ thread. Going just from the book, you have to reason it out from rather less clear wording in the various Maneuvers Readied sections. There is definitely a lot of wording there to support the FAQ answer, but nothing so explicit as "you cannot ready the same maneuver more than once at a time."

[Susano-wo]

Yeah, that was the impression I got, just from the assumptions the book seemed to make, and that's how we ruled it.

What about the known maneuvers issue?
The only thing I can find in the FAQ is this, which doesn't come out and say anything, but it does definitely make a differentiation between maneuvers from different classes.

Though of course I know that's not 100% authoratative to most people, since it has some dubious rulings (Like the idea that IH Surge can remove permanent effects)

When a multiclassed martial adept chooses to learn a
new maneuver in place of one he already knows, can he
choose to “lose” a maneuver from one class and “gain” a
maneuver from another class?
No. Both maneuvers must be taken from the same class’s
list of maneuvers.

[Particle_Man]

For what it is worth, White Raven Tactics can be used on a nearby archer to give her an extra ranged attack against a far off opponent. Or on a nearby spellcaster that might be able to help you get up close an personal using magic.

But yeah, I am playing a Treant Crusader. My ranged attacks are . . . ok (because of high strength, but they don't hit that often). But anyhow, I can trample. :)

[Koury]

*snip*

Hey, something I always wanted to ask you. When you go in water do you get wet?

[/nerdjoke]

[Greenish]

With thicket of blades, large spiked chaing and combat reflexes I get in quite a few AOOs as well.I'll point out, in case I'm not reading more into this sentence that I should, that using a larger reach weapon doesn't give you more reach.

[aeauseth]

I'll point out, in case I'm not reading more into this sentence that I should, that using a larger reach weapon doesn't give you more reach.

I would disagree. Unfortunatly I can't find a rule that specifically addresses this argument. The closest is in the SRD Reach (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)section.

I submit that increasing the size of the weapon increases the reach by 5ft. Increasing the size of the weilder (eg longer arms) also increases the reach by 5ft. So using the SRD example of a typical reach weapon (polearm) the reach would be 15-20ft. This is the standard 10ft + 5 for weaponsize + 5 for wielder size.

I futher submit that if we swap out that polearm for a spiked chain you would threaten 0-20ft.

In my particualr build I use strongarm bracers and a large spiked chain (two hands) to threaten 0-15ft. Standard 0-10ft for spiked chain, +5 for a large weapon.

[Greenish]

I would disagree. Unfortunatly I can't find a rule that specifically addresses this argument.It's in Rules Compendium, page 151 if my memory serves.

Anyhow, if a weapon has "reach" quality, it doubles the user's normal reach. If your natural reach is 5', with a reach weapon it's 10'. If your natural reach is 10', with reach weapon it becomes 20'.

[DragoonWraith]

Greenish is correct. A Medium-size creature cannot use a Large melee weapon to get a 10' reach, or a Large Reach weapon to get a 15' reach. So long as he is Medium-sized, his reach with non-reach melee weapons is 5' and with reach weapons is 10'. He can wield Large-sized weapons of either type if he wishes, but it doesn't affect his reach, only the damage on the weapon and the penalties he takes.

[Keld Denar]

Using a reach weapon SMALLER than what is appropriate for your size does affect your reach though...in that you lose it. If you are a human wielding a small sized spiked chain, you lose the reach property of it. A reach weapon has to be sized appropriately (or larger) in order to benefit from the reach property. Its alluded to in the SRD, but confirmed in the Rules Compendium.