How is Roy better than Enor?

[Cizak]

I may be missing something obvious here, but:

Why do they think Roy is better than Enor? Granted we've not seen Enor in action with just wooden weapons yet, but in panel 1 of #748 we can see that he has knocked one guy out. How is that not as good as someone who barely knocks out a halfing?

[blackjack217]

because the halfling is a sexy shoeless god of war. Also enor is as dumb as a post

[olthar]

Enor took our 1 guy. Belkar took out 4ish and roy took down belkar. 4>1

[Xykeb Zraliv]

I think it's because Roy so utterly defeated Belkar, the one they thought was going to be their headliner. Naturally, having been defeated, the "headliner" status shifted to the one who beat him, Roy.

At least, that's the way I see it.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Gladiator games are about putting on a show. The best gladiators aren’t necessarily the best warriors. They’re the best warriors of the best showmen. It’s more about style than ability.

[Swordpriest]

Well, in my case, I have no assumption that Roy is going to win :smallwink: .... at the moment, I'd be hard put to it on which to bet on.*

*Assuming D&D rules, of course. If the rules were even a little closer to 'reality,' Enor's strength would be many orders of magnitude higher than Roy's -- after all, his arm muscles are probably as large as Roy's whole torso. And that would pretty much ensure him the victory. However, since this is D&D, such considerations don't really apply, because D&D humans are a lot tougher than real humans.

[slayerx]

It's about showmanship... the tournament needs a "STAR", to advertise and get people excited. You make the headliner a half-dragon/half-ogre and then there's no surprises. you just know that dragon is gonna just beat everything that comes in. it's exciting but it lacks tension

However you place the dragon second, and then people think the human is the true star of the show. They'll be thinking "oh ****, if this human's out before the dragon he's gotta be REALLY badass"... being first also might allow Roy to show off his skills frist against random animals and monsters before being pitted against Enor; this will help reinforce the idea that Roy's got what it takes to take down really monsters... it lets the audience think that the human might have a chance and that the dragon might loose. PLACE YOUR BETS!

[Belthasar]

Aren't we forgetting something? Roy is not just a fighter; is a profesional tactician with a Master of Battle Administration (MBA), while his opponent may be larger in size, have an awesome strength, and a breath weapon, but he's not very smart...

...And he's naive, and slow-witted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0729.html). He could easily fall for feints or tactics. Let's not forget the battle Roy had with the half-ogre with a chain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

[Fargazer]

They know Roy is a main character.

[Belthasar]

They know Roy is a main character.

And if he was not, he would still kick Enor's tail... Maybe after receive some lightning damage and some bruises.

[Kish]

For one thing, he didn't "barely knock [Belkar] out." He knocked Belkar back to Basic.

[rewinn]

I may be missing something obvious here, but:

Why do they think Roy is better than Enor?
Roy is a Face (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(professional_wrestling)).

Enor is a Heel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel_(professional_wrestling)).

[Cerlis]

if you mean why is he number one for teh show, cus Enor was just there cus he's a big half ogre half dragon. Roy one shotted someone they where impressed with.

If you want to know why he is better, i'd say because Enor is probably appropriate lvl for them, but assuming his Effective encounter Level wasnt based off teaming up with Ganji, he still has his Level Adjucement. He may have a much higher strength stats and special abilities, but his abilities are based off his hitdice, and he probably has fewer hitdice than roy because of his LA. he has fewer hitpoints and saves as well. His main advantage is his strength score and the fact that Roy probably has a crummy Ref slave. He has traded valuable HIt dice based stats Roy has, for his special abilities and high strength score.

[slayerx]

if you mean why is he number one for teh show, cus Enor was just there cus he's a big half ogre half dragon. Roy one shotted someone they where impressed with.

-dnd jargon-
Short version... Roy KOing Belkar in one shot would NOT be enough to tell the jailers that Roy has a significant level advantage to the point where he could beat Enor

long version
by how utterly easily Enor dealt with Elan, it is unlikley that he is THAT much lower in level than other members of the order. Really it doesn't matter if Enor has a better melee build, he took out Elan in 3 shots... even with his bonus strength of his nature, he's got to have a good level to be able to waste that much HP so quickly... And as Gannji pointed out, Roy is gonna lack his magical equipment in the arena. It's gonna be more or less a straight fight using nothing more than ordinary weapons.


no as others and myself has said, the slots likely have to do less with their respective fighting abilities and more with showmanship... hell, even with a dragon-ogre they were thought they found a headliner in a bouncing halfling. A good Headliner(hero) has to be the kind of person that seems normal and beatable, so that he can take the audience by surprise when he shows his stuff to the point that they start really question who will win in the fight; the hero or the villain

[Morquard]

Don't compare Roy to Elan for effectiveness please, they're on two whole different levels there. It used to be worlds, but Elan got better with Dashing Swordsman, but his greatests strength there is his ability to make puns to help his fighting and he didn't get to that at all in his fight with Enor, both the first hit and the breath weapon got him by surprise.
Also he has alot less HP than Roy.

But he should have a +5 LA for the Half-Dragon and Half-Ogres templates, so even if his ECL is roughtly the same as roys he's lacking 5 class levels, with saves, BAB and all the goodies. Sure some of it is made up by the increased stats, but not all, so Roy may find a weakness there. He also seems to have abysmal Int and Wis scores, so maybe Roy has something that attacks will-saves.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

As well, Roy is at least a 14th level fighter I think was determined. That means 8 feats just as a bonus. Plus 5 for HD and 1 for human.

That's 14 feats that he's mainly, if not completely, devoted to fighting. You can get some pretty powerful combos with all that. Even martial maneuvers.

[faustin]

Have you forget the fight between Roy and the Half Ogre armed with chains who developed the "perfect combo"? Usually in this comic, wits defeat raw power in battle.

[zimmerwald1915]

As well, Roy is at least a 14th level fighter I think was determined. That means 8 feats just as a bonus. Plus 5 for HD and 1 for human.

That's 14 feats that he's mainly, if not completely, devoted to fighting. You can get some pretty powerful combos with all that. Even martial maneuvers.
The latest Geekery estimates put him at Level 12, but that's after he died and was resurrected.

[Roc Ness]

Don't forget that strip where Roy grabbed Enor by the tail and swung the him bodily into the ground. I'm not sure how much damage it did, but I think it was one of the only times when Enor's eyes became ovals (surprise?) instead of the usual semi-circle thingies.

[zimmerwald1915]

Don't forget that strip where Roy grabbed Enor by the tail and swung the him bodily into the ground. I'm not sure how much damage it did, but I think it was one of the only times when Enor's eyes became ovals (surprise?) instead of the usual semi-circle thingies.
He had his Belt of Giant's Strength on at the time though, so he might not be able to pull of that maneuver again.

[hamishspence]

Don't forget that strip where Roy grabbed Enor by the tail and swung the him bodily into the ground. I'm not sure how much damage it did, but I think it was one of the only times when Enor's eyes became ovals (surprise?) instead of the usual semi-circle thingies.

His eyes were slightly oval shaped only a couple of panels before:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html

Though that might have been because his friend just got zapped.

The 3 fiends, Xykon, and dragons do tend to default to semicircle/triangle eyes, with oval ones being the exception, it is true.

[Bongos]

If Roy is in the first slot it means he goes on first probably. Like the opening act before the main band. People are going to watch Roy, and then stick around to see the dragon later.

[SoC175]

Let's not forget the battle Roy had with the half-ogre with a chain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html). A battle Roy would have lost on any other battlefield and that the battlefield was the way it was had nothing to do with Roy whatsoever?

[JoeSkull]

A battle Roy would have lost on any other battlefield and that the battlefield was the way it was had nothing to do with Roy whatsoever?

I believe the idea was that he was smart enough to use the terrain to his advantage. Rather than just blindly attacking like a lesser fighter would have.
I imagine if the terrain had been different then you could have come up with a different plan.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

The latest Geekery estimates put him at Level 12, but that's after he died and was resurrected.
Then one less feat is all. 13 feats. Fighters may not be the strongest, but you can pull some powerful combos.

[Belthasar]

I believe the idea was that he was smart enough to use the terrain to his advantage. Rather than just blindly attacking like a lesser fighter would have.
I imagine if the terrain had been different then you could have come up with a different plan.
Exactly. :smallwink:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I believe the idea was that he was smart enough to use the terrain to his advantage. Rather than just blindly attacking like a lesser fighter would have.
Funny thing is that in that scenario “using the terrain to his advantage” and “blindly attacking” were pretty much indistinguishable. :smalltongue:

[Darthteej]

The thing is that assuming the arena even has exploitable terrain, Enor can fly under his own power. Enor has +12 STR from his templates, and that is a MASSIVE advantage. Roy has no method of stunning, dazing, or in any other way crippling Enor, so in D&D rules it's a straight fight of the stats.

But this is OoTS, and I'm sure he'll pull through somehow.

[Nimrod's Son]

The thing is that assuming the arena even has exploitable terrain, Enor can fly under his own power.
At the moment, his wings are clipped. That may well be the case in the arena, too, otherwise he could just fly to freedom.

[Morgan Wick]

Don't forget that strip where Roy grabbed Enor by the tail and swung the him bodily into the ground. I'm not sure how much damage it did, but I think it was one of the only times when Enor's eyes became ovals (surprise?) instead of the usual semi-circle thingies.

I thought of that strip when I saw the title, and compared it to 748, and I wonder: might Roy be becoming more of a blood knight? Maybe he and Belkar are slowly switching roles?

[Jake]

"Strength is my strength. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0729.html)"

[Deliverance]

How is Roy better than Enor? Well, for one thing he doesn't look as much as Enor like "the tough-looking guys who get knocked out in the first round to show how strong the champion is" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0736.html).

Even ignoring Roy's superior intelligence and planning abilities, that's a significant strategic advantage in the OOTS world. :smallbiggrin:

[Yana]

Don't compare Roy to Elan for effectiveness please, they're on two whole different levels there. It used to be worlds, but Elan got better with Dashing Swordsman, but his greatests strength there is his ability to make puns to help his fighting and he didn't get to that at all in his fight with Enor, both the first hit and the breath weapon got him by surprise.
Also he has alot less HP than Roy.

Also, don't forgethttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0728.html. When Enor and Gannji took on Elan, Haley and Vaarsuvius, the pair of them had to spend a ton of gold on performance enhancing weaponry, the poison that hit V, and all the potions to even give them a chance. I'm not saying that Elan would have won without them having that advantage, he still would probably have gotten knocked out. It's just not a foregone conclusion that a uberbuffed Enor that clobbered Elan is the same as an unbuffed, unequipped Enor fighting Roy.

[Kish]

I thought of that strip when I saw the title, and compared it to 748, and I wonder: might Roy be becoming more of a blood knight? Maybe he and Belkar are slowly switching roles?
What the?

Roy had a temper way back in the Dungeon of Dorukan. It's what defeated Xykon there, remember? It takes a lot more than responding to unprovoked violence with violence to "switch roles" with Belkar. (Responding to having a pulse with violence would be a start.)

[JoeSkull]

Funny thing is that in that scenario “using the terrain to his advantage” and “blindly attacking” were pretty much indistinguishable. :smalltongue:

which was a tactic.
He saw the cliff, and the fact that every time he charged the ogre jumped backwards. He also knew that if he just kept charging then the ogre wouldn't ask questions. A stupid person might have just stumbled onto this conclusion while just charging because he is too much of a dunce to realize that its not gonna work, or just give up.

I mean, honestly, once they get to the point where they have established that this ogre has "the perfect build" then you either die, run away, or make up a better plan than die.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

which was a tactic.
Oh, yeah. That’s pretty clear by the time Roy starts lecturing the half-ogre on changing tactics though he himself continues to use the same charge.

[HandofShadows]

Oh, yeah. That’s pretty clear by the time Roy starts lecturing the half-ogre on changing tactics though he himself continues to use the same charge.

Does it matter that Roy won? And that his tactics in the end worked better than the ogre's?

[faustin]

Oh, yeah. That’s pretty clear by the time Roy starts lecturing the half-ogre on changing tactics though he himself continues to use the same charge.

It was a tactic, because he knew the half-ogre would anyway keep using the same combo and stepping back straight to the cliff.

[Anterean]

For one thing, he didn't "barely knock [Belkar] out." He knocked Belkar back to Basic.

Belkar was still concious, as opposed to the guy Enor had his hands on.

That being said I doubt Enor has access to the Expertise feat line, which Roy undoubtedly has (and I think that is a great advantage, but I am not really much on on optimiser).

On a slightly different note I wonder why people consider the episode in 748 a good representation of an actual fight between Belkar and Roy, to me it looks like Belkar is just playfully jabbing at Roy, not actually trying to hurt him, and is taken by surprise by Roy's... lets call it outburst

[Nimrod's Son]

to me it looks like Belkar is just playfully jabbing at Roy, not actually trying to hurt him
If that's the case, why did Belkar think he was making Roy "look mediocre"?

[blunk]

Enor's strength would be many orders of magnitude higher than Roy'sJust so you know, an "order of magnitude" is generally a power of ten, so if "many" is "four or more", that would make Enor 10,000+ times as strong as Roy - capable of easily lifting a couple of 747s over his head.

"Many times higher" would arguably be accurate, and it's much easier to understand (and harder to misuse).

[Ancalagon]

"Many times higher" would arguably be accurate, and it's much easier to understand (and harder to misuse).

Even that would probably too much.

We know that Roy is a fighter with "lots of Str", so let's assume (as weakest case) a native Str of 18 (without putting statpoints from levelling there).

Half-Dragons get +8, so even if Enor has a "base str" of 18 and put like 3 points from levels there, he'd end up with Str 29. He'd have 11 points more than Roy, which comes down to a net-modifier of +5.
That's, from the rule-point-of-view, very nice but surely not THAT massive. If Roy put some points in Str and Enor did not (he might have boosted con?) the gap between the two becomes even smaller.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Does it matter that Roy won? And that his tactics in the end worked better than the ogre's?
If I were saying it wasn’t a tactic, no it wouldn’t matter. Lucking into victory doesn’t make the luck turn into a tactic. It’s just luck.

But I was being sincere in my previous post.


It was a tactic, because he knew the half-ogre would anyway keep using the same combo and stepping back straight to the cliff.
Yep.

[Kislath]

Didn't Enor already knock Roy on his keister once with a breath-bolt? I don't see Roy dodging another one.

[Swordpriest]

On a slightly different note I wonder why people consider the episode in 748 a good representation of an actual fight between Belkar and Roy, to me it looks like Belkar is just playfully jabbing at Roy, not actually trying to hurt him, and is taken by surprise by Roy's... lets call it outburst

Well, I agree he was taken by surprise -- I think it was more because with his abysmally low Wisdom, he interpreted Roy's "wanting to look mediocre" to mean "hey, I can pound on Roy all I want, because he's not going to fight back no matter what I do." And he miscalculated. :smallamused:

[Yana]

It was a suprise to Roy, he didn't know that Enor had a breath attack, therefore, he didn't know to dodge.

[Kish]

A blue half-dragon's lightning attack doesn't actually have a knockback effect. Roy fell over because he was surprised. He won't be surprised next time.

[Anterean]

Well, I agree he was taken by surprise -- I think it was more because with his abysmally low Wisdom, he interpreted Roy's "wanting to look mediocre" to mean "hey, I can pound on Roy all I want, because he's not going to fight back no matter what I do." And he miscalculated. :smallamused:

I agree completely with this.
It's just I don´t think his jabbing at Roy was meant actually injure him, they where painful and annoying sure, but nothing like Belkar would do in an actual fight.

[blunk]

Even that would probably too much.

We know that Roy is a fighter with "lots of Str", so let's assume (as weakest case) a native Str of 18 (without putting statpoints from levelling there).

Half-Dragons get +8, so even if Enor has a "base str" of 18 and put like 3 points from levels there, he'd end up with Str 29. He'd have 11 points more than Roy, which comes down to a net-modifier of +5.
That's, from the rule-point-of-view, very nice but surely not THAT massive. If Roy put some points in Str and Enor did not (he might have boosted con?) the gap between the two becomes even smaller.That may be, but to tell you the truth, I'm just here on order-of-magnitude patrol duty (as part of my plea bargain with the State). :-(