Warhammer 40k [Archive] - Page 4 - Giant in the Playground Forums

Narmoth

2007-07-05, 04:16 AM

Good luck Than! Let me know how it rolls out for you. GO JOE!

Ok, changing gears... I posted this over on DakkaDakka, but since they get posts at the speed of erosion, and this is a fluffier sort of board I think, I will repost here.

Ok, so I am starting a marine army for my fiance and I, with a particular theme.

Now, without getting too much into army list territory, I am going to be doing some conversions. Because, We Are PennState. (Alumni, that is.)

So I am making a chaplin with power claws and the Nittany Lion's Pelt. He is after all the spiritual leader of the chapter *cough*... I am not going for uber serious here.

My question for my little army is how to model Paterno. I was thinking two options:

The first, and most obvious, is a chapter master. I don't really want to put him into melee, so I was going to have him in power armor with a power fist and bolter, sitting with a tank hunting (or infiltrating) HQ unit with two anti tank weapons. In which case I would sculpt a head, or decapitate a suitably sized trinket or souvenier.

Alternately, I was thinking of making him a librarian with Fury of the Anchients and Fear the Darkness, with an infiltrating squad with some anti-tank. I haven't really thought out this idea yet, but given half the library was built by him, and the amusing idea of giving the model a giant "Play Book", I am suddenly torn.

So raise your voices, servants of the Emporer! Our Immortal Liege demands to know: is Joe Pa a Chapter Master, or a Librarian? The Imperium depends on you!

(I will post pics once I get the project started in earnest. I only have a single marine painted up now as a proof of concept.)

Take both. The cchapter master gives you a bit better rolls on some tests, while the librarian is a much better addition do the damaging part.
Personally I run with a full HQ squad with Chapter Master, Librarian and Chaplian, and a terminator HQ squad led by a librarian.

Eldpollard

2007-07-05, 07:23 AM

I've stopped playing 40K really. I've been concentrating on my fantasy instead but I was thinking of starting it up again. Daemonhunters and witchhunters both look very intriguing to play. It's the fluff that's got me interested. Does anyone have some experience in playing either against them or as them?

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-05, 08:00 AM

I wonder, does anyone here play (as or against) Alpha Legion Chaos? I play them myself, mostly 'cause I love infiltrators. Right now I haven't got any cultists, and I'm thinking of getting some. Anybody have experience with/against them? There stat line vs their points cost looks good on paper (3 str4, int4 attacks on the charge for 6 points!) but it doesn't always work out that way in an actual game. Unfortunatly, I don't have access to Daemons, so they won't be doing any summoning. I'm also thinking of using them as a screen for better units, but I fight tau alot, and I know pulse rifles will go through them incredibly quickly.

Any suggestions?

Not str 4 init 4...str 3 init 3...in fact, all their stats are 3 with 1 wound and leadership 7 with a 6+ save...they are in fact basic guardsmen without access to special weapons and equipped for close combat due to their pistol and CCW.

A cheap effective screen for your more expensive troops...that is about it. And a big pile of wounds for your cultist champion who has a power sword...about the only 'useful' thing against anyone other than the weakest troops. They would have their uses, just don't think that for a moment they are cheap beserkers or abything.

DeathQuaker

2007-07-05, 01:51 PM

Daemonhunters and witchhunters both look very intriguing to play. It's the fluff that's got me interested. Does anyone have some experience in playing either against them or as them?

I have played as Witch Hunters versus Daemonhunters, several times.

Witch Hunters are a flexible, mid-power level army. They have powerful but short range shooting ability (bolters and hellguns are primary troop weapons), so the trick with them is to get them close enough to fire. They have good armor, but "human normal" strength and toughness, which puts them at a disadvantage in close combat with armies like Marines and Tyranids. I personally prefer using a lot of Adepta Sororitas units, which have access to "Acts of Faith" which give them a chance to temporarily get an invulnerable save, improve their initiative, improve their strength at the cost of initiative, etc. This makes them especially adaptable. Played well they can accomplish some amazing things, but played poorly they can get crushed underfoot easily.

I personally love'em; I've had my fair share of victories and defeats and a lot of close calls. But the fun thing about playing a religious fanatic, even if all your units die, you can still praise the Emperor that their souls now rest with him. :smallwink:

As for Daemonhunters, I can't provide explicit details, but generally they are powerful and expensive; good if you like a lot of punch in a small package and/or don't like to field millions of troops at once. They have storm bolters and psi cannons, all quite nice, plus a lot of nice upgrade options. Daemonhunter Terminators are especially nasty; I've lost a lot of Sisters of Battle to them, and have only defeated them through careful tactics (Seraphim's Hit and Run comes in handy). According to my friend who plays them, their power gives them an obvious advantage, but because they're low on numbers, if someone punches through a weak point of a flank or the like, they can be decimated.

Both armies are fun to paint (I painted my friend's Daemonhunters), though very, very detailed, so if you want something "fast" to paint, they would not be a good first choice.

Dragor

2007-07-05, 03:55 PM

With Death Quaker on both fronts there. Nuff' said. I'm still starting out with Witch Hunters, but I'm not that good. I'm not letting it dishearten me, though, all I've played against are Marines.

On top of that, I rolled very poorly. (But I bet that's everyones excuse eh :smalltongue: )

Rigel Cyrosea

2007-07-05, 05:30 PM

Not str 4 init 4...str 3 init 3...in fact, all their stats are 3 with 1 wound and leadership 7 with a 6+ save...they are in fact basic guardsmen without access to special weapons and equipped for close combat due to their pistol and CCW.

A cheap effective screen for your more expensive troops...that is about it. And a big pile of wounds for your cultist champion who has a power sword...about the only 'useful' thing against anyone other than the weakest troops. They would have their uses, just don't think that for a moment they are cheap beserkers or abything.

Actually, they get furious charge (or move through cover, or tank hunters) and infiltrators for free. That means that they do get 3 str4, int4 attacks on the charge. Leadership is 8 with a cult champion. Their save does suck. Basic gaurdsmen cannot summon daemons, and don't get vetran skills.

trollhammeren

2007-07-05, 05:57 PM

Rigel Cyrosea

2007-07-05, 06:22 PM

Alpha legion are great. Entire army infiltrates for dirt cheap. The only down side is the way that only cultists can summon deamons cause cultists are, plain and simply, crap. I love the fluff behind the legion too. Alpharius is one of my favourite primarchs, after Mortarion (cause i play Death Guard) and Fulgrim (cause he looks cool and pretty much killed Gulliman). Other primarchs are pretty cool too though like Manus and Dorn.

:smallbiggrin: Works great against the tau. I've seen my Daemon Prince with Daemonic Speed get into hand to hand on the first turn. No beserkers kind of sucks, but I can live with it.
My favourite primarch is probably Sanguinius, but Alpharius, Magnus, and Angron are cool too. Angron is probably my favourite Chaos Primarch.

Eldpollard

2007-07-05, 06:53 PM

I have played as Witch Hunters versus Daemonhunters, several times.

*snip*

You have now made me want to play with Witch hunters all the more. I've seem them used and they do look fun. They're also not a common army to use which I like.

DeathQuaker

2007-07-05, 08:14 PM

You have now made me want to play with Witch hunters all the more. I've seem them used and they do look fun. They're also not a common army to use which I like.

Always happy to help convert another to the cause (It's always a shame, otherwise, if I have to burn the heretic with the flames of purifiaction... :smallsigh: ) :smallwink:

Yes, it's nice to see Witch Hunters show up in a world where most folks play Space or Chaos Marines. There are a few of us WH players here now... me, Dragor, and Wehrkind at least. Maybe a Witch Hunters tactics thread would be a good idea...

In general, I advise proxying first. With WH there are a lot of different combos to try out, and the models are expensive. Good luck and happy heretic-hunting!

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-05, 08:55 PM

Actually, they get furious charge (or move through cover, or tank hunters) and infiltrators for free. That means that they do get 3 str4, int4 attacks on the charge. Leadership is 8 with a cult champion. Their save does suck. Basic gaurdsmen cannot summon daemons, and don't get vetran skills.

Ahh...ok, I knew they got to choose a special, but I don't actually have a rulebook and didn't know exactly what 'Furious Charge' did...

So...it grants +1 str and +1 init during a charge does it? Interesting...They still have crap save and crappy WS...but with that many attacks for 6 pts..not too shabby, not to shabby at all especially when they can have up to 20 cultists...

trollhammeren

2007-07-06, 05:17 AM

And the unit champion gets an attack and point of leadership for an extra 5pts. They should be able to take special weapons though, like plasma guns or flamers. But get enough of them against the right target and its dead.

Dragor

2007-07-06, 05:29 AM

Yes, it's nice to see Witch Hunters show up in a world where most folks play Space or Chaos Marines. There are a few of us WH players here now... me, Dragor, and Wehrkind at least. Maybe a Witch Hunters tactics thread would be a good idea...

Yes, a very good idea indeed- we can talk away from these heretical scum.... :smallamused:

The only army I've beaten so far is Dark Eldar, and I'm having a bad time against Space Marines, who I despise. Any recommended tactics for beating them? I equipped my Sisters with Melta Bombs (a must have against Dreadnoughts) but they performed extremely poorly roll-wise.

My army setup is still in its early days, so here's what I have:

1 Inquisitor Lord and Retinue (1 Warrior, 2 Medics)
2 S.O.B Squads (by SOB I mean Sisters of Battle, not the other meaning, although that could apply to :smallwink: ) equipped with Melta Bombs, 1 Squad with Melta Gun and one squad with Flamer
1 Seraphim Squad

Very small indeed, and the Seraphim are only half painted. Still, hopefully some future pointers wouldn't go amiss. I'm planning to either get some 'big guns' (Immolater, maybe even some heavy weapon teams) but I'm not sure.

Flirkann

2007-07-06, 06:25 AM

Hmm, beating marines.....
MeltaBombs are really a waste against dreads - hitting on 6s (immobilisation only kills their legs), AV12 in combat (they can rotate to face the enemy in combat so you only ever hit their front armour), can hit back with nasty results (S10 hits) - you'd be better off packing melta guns/missile launchers for shooting, power fists/eviscerators if you really want to fight H2H.
Against Std marines, AP3 weaponry or power weapons are the way to go. In failing that, make the marines take lots of saves.

With 3+ saves of your own and the marine armoury to face off against, heavy weapon teams are probably your most reslient option.

DeathQuaker

2007-07-06, 07:13 AM

Yes, a very good idea indeed- we can talk away from these heretical scum.... :smallamused:

The only army I've beaten so far is Dark Eldar, and I'm having a bad time against Space Marines, who I despise. Any recommended tactics for beating them?

I will try to offer what I can. I've faced Space Marines a lot. The Dark Angels in particular may know no fear, but I tell you, they FEAR the Order of the Revolutionary Rose.

I equipped my Sisters with Melta Bombs (a must have against Dreadnoughts) but they performed extremely poorly roll-wise.

I agree with Flirkann... drop the Meltabombs. They're no good on ordinary troops--you want to keep your Sisters troops OUT of close combat (especially with Dreadnaughts!). I have some "suicide melta bombers" in my army, but it's a small squad of 5-6 Dominions, so it's less of a cost and only for my higher point armies.

SOB troops are for standing in a solid position and firing their bolters, not for assaulting.

My army setup is still in its early days, so here's what I have:

1 Inquisitor Lord and Retinue (1 Warrior, 2 Medics)

Inq Lords are best used for close combat, so upgrade the warrior to a Crusader. Consider mounting them in a rhino so they can get to the enemy a little quicker. Give the Inq a flamer/brazier of holy fire maybe.

2 S.O.B Squads (by SOB I mean Sisters of Battle, not the other meaning, although that could apply to :smallwink: ) equipped with Melta Bombs, 1 Squad with Melta Gun and one squad with Flamer

Drop the meltabombs and the flamer. Flamers are best for assault units, and again, you don't want to be pushing these guys into close combat. Since at the moment you're low on Heavy Support, I'd stick to meltaguns. 2 per unit if you can afford it. Once you get more heavy support, I might switch out the meltas on one (or both) units for Storm Bolters (has the best range of any troop weapon, and can fire after moving).

Make sure these guys have a Veteran so they can pop faith. You'll need Spirit of the Martyr to resist some of the Marines' heavy weapons.

1 Seraphim Squad

If you have enough, bulk this out to a full 10 woman squad. These are your Marine killers if you use them well. They are jump pack units so you can Deep Strike them--take advantage of that when the scenario allows for it and it's to your advantage.

Seraphim are fast and nasty compared to other SOBs. Either use these to tackle the Marines' weak units to get them off the board (they will tear scouts apart) or tangle them up with the stronger units to keep them from shooting/assaulting your troops. Take advantage of their Hit and Run ability. If the enemy assaults you, use Hit and Run with withdraw, then on your turn, you jump back forward, shoot them once (with twin linked pistols you'll still hit them a lot) and then assault them again.

Use a lot of your faith points on your Seraphim--they are worth it.

If you are still considering assaulting a dreadnaught, do it with your Seraphim. Arm 1 or 2 of them with inferno pistols and have them shoot it (and have everyone else shoot it using Divine Guidance). If it's not already dead, HOPE you have at least immobilized it (or attacking it with any grenade is pointless) and then assault it with the Seraphim standard issue krak grenades.

Very small indeed, and the Seraphim are only half painted. Still, hopefully some future pointers wouldn't go amiss. I'm planning to either get some 'big guns' (Immolater, maybe even some heavy weapon teams) but I'm not sure.

Note: an Immolator is not "big guns." They look cool. They look like they might be "big guns." But when it comes down to it, they're an armored truck with a flamethrower welded to the top. The immolator in my army largely exists for one purpose: drawing fire away from my rhinos. A rhino with a flamethrower on it still looks more theatening than a rhino that doesn't, so my enemies tend to shoot that, which possibly entangles my 5 already suicidal Dominions, but allows my almighty Canoness and her 9 Celestians to hop forward 12 inches and then prepare their onslaught unharmed.

If you want "big guns" the Exorcist is really your only Sisters-based choice for long range armor piercing death. Though they're shorter range, for a smaller army, Retributors armed with Multi Meltas can do some nice damage. Or you could consider bringing in some Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and arming them with some plasma guns, and/or maybe putting them in a Chimera.

Hope that helps.

trollhammeren

2007-07-06, 07:15 AM

Or try a penitent engine or arco-flagellants or something that will distract most of your opponents fire will your heavy weapons riddle him. Eviscerators arent that much use since theyll be strength six at the most cause only sisters repentia and priests can take them but they still roll 2D6 so with a bit of luck it would pay off. Or just get an orbital bombardment and a vindicare assassin.

Dragor

2007-07-06, 08:32 AM

Thanks to ya both. Since it's the holidays- huzzah- I'll start getting those Seraphim painted. Those Heretic Marines are gonna get a whole face o' bolter..... :smallbiggrin:

trollhammeren

2007-07-06, 06:38 PM

Ha, good luck with that :amused:. You will fight and you will die. :smalltongue:

Mr._Blinky

2007-07-06, 11:35 PM

Quick question: I was wondering if the Storm Bolter and Power Sword my Commander wields are already factored into his points, or if I pay for those separately. Same with my Librarian's Storm Bolter. Oh, and I can't seem to find the new point cost for the Sergeant either. Is it just the same as the standard marines now?

crazedloon

2007-07-07, 12:02 AM

I am going off of memory here so I may be wrong.

But all command models start with nothing and you add onto them so you need to pay for the sword and bolter. (the entry should say something like the "insert unit name" can be given equipment from the Space Marine Armory)

Sergeants have never been different from normal marines however if you want to deck one out you need to upgrade to a veteran sergeant which should be in the unit entry under the cost for a normal marine.

nathkry

2007-07-07, 12:11 AM

I thought a sergeant was +10 points (or however much it says under the space marine stat line), and to have a veteran sergeant you give the sergeant termie honors. I could be wrong, though.

crazedloon

2007-07-07, 12:13 AM

like I said I could be wrong as it has been a little while since I last saw the updated book :smallsigh:

Mr._Blinky

2007-07-07, 12:22 AM

Yeah, because unless I'm mistaken, the new book doesn't seem to say it anywhere.

Bryn

2007-07-07, 08:00 AM

A sergeant is no different from a normal marine, except he can be armed with a bolt pistol and chainsword at no extra cost. He can, however, be upgraded to a Veteran Sergeant, which increases his cost by 15 points but gives him Terminator Honours and armoury access.

Amr40

2007-07-08, 07:04 AM

hi, im new and i play tau :smallsmile:

Wehrkind

2007-07-08, 08:13 AM

Pretty much any unit can buy Eviserator's from the armory if needed. I am thinking of hooking up my Seraphim Sister Supe's with them.

One thing DQ and I vary on in tactics is I run 2 smaller Seraphim units, both 6 strong. Mine also run flamers instead of inferno pistols. I am thinking of pulling one flamer for a pistol though. The flamers are less useful against things like dreads and tanks, but since Seraphim have the speed to position themselves well, they are brutal against infantry, even power armored if you use divine guidance to get the AP1 effect. With melta bombs on the Superior (only, and soon to be replaced by an Eviserator) you can "fire" at a tank with the flamer and spill the template over to infantry and still assault the tank (if you roll luckily, you can also glance the tank's rear armor).

I am also coming to the conclusion that more bolters = better in general. Melta guns are also excellent. I am 50/50 on the flamers in my foot slogging girls, since I keep seeing uses for them (burning people out of cover when the seraphim have better things to do) but never actually use them. I am starting to think that since I can't likely get the excellent coverage angles Seraphim can, I might pull them in favor of storm bolters or meltas, and go for just more bullets/armor ignoring death going down range.

I am liking the Penitent engines pretty well. They tend to draw enough fire on their way in (moving 7-12" per turn gets people's attention) that your more important units (exorcists and repentia in my case) get to live a little longer. I am still on the fence about the repentia; first and only game I used them they ripped up a tank very well, but didn't get to kill anything else. In their defense, that was due mainly to the seraphim leaving little chaos flavored burn marks in the shape of guardsmen where ever they happened to alight, which was pretty much everywhere. I think a more solid enemy (that didn't light up like a 4th of July sparkler when within 9" of a female) would have let them shine a little more. I also should have placed them in the center instead of on a flank probably.

I don't know how I feel about melee inquisitors. I keep trying different builds, and keep thinking the damage output per point is pretty low, essentially on par with any other given slot choice (heroines, celestians etc.). I am going to run a shooty Inq. with just a bolter and 2 heavy bolter servitors to allow for a Callidus assassin (pulling Celestine in the process.) I suspect that the only really satisfying melee to be had other than arco's, penitents and repentia are the various assassins, death cults in particular. The possibility of 2 medics, 3 acolytes with man catchers and some crusaders with a inquisitor to take out tough individuals (by way of attack denial and wound healing combined with a force/power weapon) is a decent one.

When it comes to penitent engines and exorcists, here's a pro-tip: pay someone else to build and paint them for you. I am 9+ hours into painting my pair of exorcists, and I am STILL finding hidden details I missed. I just got my 3rd I had on order, and decided it is staying in the box for a long time. The penitents are not so bad to paint, but a big pain to put together. You will have enough on your hands with all the sisters. I spend roughly 2-3 times longer per sister than marine, due to the faces, hair and other random details.

Siric

2007-07-08, 11:03 AM

Against Std marines, AP3 weaponry or power weapons are the way to go.

Vespid for the win!
...
>_>

TheOtherMC

2007-07-09, 01:19 PM

hi, im new and i play tau :smallsmile:

NIIIIICE CHOICE man. Same way I started.

Dorizzit

2007-07-09, 05:02 PM

Yeah, except for four things:

a. They have nothing in an assault (except Kroot).

b. They are a shooty army with BS 3.

c. See point a.

d. See point b.

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-09, 06:31 PM

Wait a minute...the Imperial Guard are a shooty army with BS 3 and the worst basic weapon in the game save for a las pistol. Whatcha tryn' to say?

The strength of the Tau shooting isnt in the individual soldier, or even in the individual gun...it is in the shear volume of high grade firepower that can be thrown in the face of the enemy in a highly mobile way.

Sure they suck in close combat...sure a single squad isn't much of a match for anything in shooting...but get enough and they will probably outshoot anything other than a squad of Guardsmen in rapid fire range...and likely do more damage from their better weapons.

As an added bonus...those battlesuits look pretty cool...and they are so easy to paint.

Klinnei

2007-07-09, 06:53 PM

I'm starting a tau army, anything I need to know about them?
I plan on buying the battleforce and codex, what other units should I get?
I know a lot about 40k already, but not a lot about Tau.
Thanks ^_^

crazedloon

2007-07-09, 06:54 PM

actually I hate the tau so what I am about to say you can take with a grain a salt :smalltongue:

(first and foremost the imperials are lucky have you ever seen a grot blasta now thats a piece of junk :smallwink: )

Ok the reason the tau are so good is because their guns have range. even though they will miss more often then say marines they will be shooting longer and thus have volume of fire. and their guns are not so bad.

They have quality close combat mainly the fact that throwing battle suits at most normal units are a pain in the rear. the suits will probably not win (if they do yay) but they will last long enough for you to neutralize any other threats and reposition your guns to destroy whatever had to tied up. and do to their maneuverability the suits by themselves are not so bad at getting where they are needed.

for a new force:

Drop the kroot they are junk. buy a unit or two more of fire warriors. get a unit of broadsides, a hammerhead and a unit of battle suits to go with your commander and you will have a strong starting army.

I have no clue how much that actually costs but if you have the points a pathfinder unit in the devil fish may not be to bad ether.

Siric

2007-07-09, 08:10 PM

Yeah... Tau suck in assault. A friend of mine will often charge is IG to keep my units locked in combat... his guardsmen will slowly destroy a unit of Fire Warriors if I let them get to close. However, the Rapid fire of a Pulse rifle is nice :)... Unless there's Carapace Armour.

The Kroot Rule, Mainly because if you can find deep enough cover, then you can shoot out twelve inches. And you don't need to roll for moving in cover. Plus, the cover save is nice.

I'd actually stay away from getting lots of Suits and loading them up.. that's just my 2K :p

Oh, and By the Way, BS 3 is often cured by some markerlights.

trollhammeren

2007-07-09, 08:34 PM

Tau; the Communists of 40k. :smalltongue:

I hate fighting tau, mainly cause i started playing 40k using nids and then my next army was IG, neither of which are fun to use against an army whose basic weapon can rip through your squads as if they werent there. :furious:
Then along came the Death Guard. *sigh* Good times, good times.

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-09, 09:32 PM

Ig against Tau? Play drop troopers and get into close combat...Ig can Charge the Tau and put their WS 2 to shame with their monsterous WS3...RAWR! Tanks...nothing makes Tau firing lines cry faster than a well placed pie plate from a Leman Russ or a Basalisk...good times. These guys pretty much are asking to be assaulted by a squad of storm troopers with meltaguns that ride up, shoot a transport and then charge the remnants.

Lascannons will eliminate those pesky vehicles if the ordinance doesn't when it drifts.

Tyranids...Genestealers with ex carapice and TMC...make them Tau scream like babies...Also...if you take 'THAT' many gaunts...you can outshoot them and have more than enough to win close combat against fire warriors...

heretic

2007-07-09, 09:42 PM

Tanks don't last against Tau.

But I second the drop troops theory.

Jacob_Gallagher

2007-07-09, 09:57 PM

Tau don't win because they have good guns. Tau win because they have good guns, and incredible mobility- my buddy installed a speaker system to play 'Can't touch this' whenever he moves his Hammerhead out of enemy fire :smallsmile:

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-09, 10:43 PM

Tanks don't last against Tau.

But I second the drop troops theory.

indirect basalisks should last just fine if they are behind cover...and besides...those LR are pretty sturdy, well...AV 14 on the front at least.

heretic

2007-07-09, 11:12 PM

indirect basalisks should last just fine if they are behind cover...and besides...those LR are pretty sturdy, well...AV 14 on the front at least.

They still get smoked. Put a couple railgun shots on them, which never miss thanks to the twin link or BS 4 Hammerhead and the ol' Russ is down for the count.

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-09, 11:44 PM

Guess it comes down to who gets to shoot first...a single turn of shooting by the guard can eliminate every vehicle a same sized Tau army fields unless they are well behind cover with enough missles and las cannons...and most IG field them in those numbers.

Or, the IG deploy their tanks behind cover and try their best to go second to let their men suck up shots and then bring out the tanks to hit troops.

Heh...Tau Hate TMC's though...the one 'vehicle' that they can't just slam with a Railgun and watch it die...they need to devote all of their heavy weapons to down a single one in one turn with reliability...and if you are diverting that much firepower on a single target...heh...oops...

Siric

2007-07-10, 01:37 AM

If I remember correctly, the IG have Carapace armor of some sort... something to bring the 5+ to a 4+, which makes them useful against the Firewarriors. And Yes, the Drop Troops works. It's happened to me before ;_;

Wehrkind

2007-07-10, 07:29 AM

I think the advantage to kroot is that you pretty much have to assault them to kill them, since it shouldn't be impossible to put them 7" into terrain and have them shoot out imperviously. They are not great shots, but their weapons are pretty good (slightly worse than bolters). Being forced to jump into the woods to kill them, on top of their bonus from cover, makes them a great tar pit. Your opponent can't really ignore them completely lest they move against his rear units or take objectives, but you don't really want to spend the resources to get to them, kill them, and then slowly walk out of the difficult terrain they were in.

Now, that is not to say they are great or overwhelming, but I can think of quite a few situations where having a unit that needs to be dug out of its cover at great expenditure of time is pretty good.

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-10, 11:20 AM

Troops can't charge when they deep strike can they? So the dropping guard will be on the ground for one turn of shooting before they can charge into combat. What is the rule in those kinds of armies...make your opponent go first so that they have one less turn than you do?

A Tactic like that against Tau wouldn't you need a screen of some sort for the turn they come in? Say, an armored fist squad or an infiltrating squad that can tie something up or block LOS to those that can't get into close combat...

It just seems so wierd to be talking about the guard seeking to charge the enemy...just...wrong.

trollhammeren

2007-07-10, 11:52 AM

Ive found that the best way to deal with Tau is to go with loads of guys all doing the same thing ie massed shotting or massed charging. Both can go horribly wrong cause of the Tau tracking thingys that their tanks have that lets them shoot all their guns at different targets and they fact that they can deploy further back so there will be very few, if any, first turn charges. Not to mention that that one Hammerhead can take out 2 squads of IG without too much trouble. Damned pulse carbines. A massed charge is harder to pull off depending on your army, 'Nids and Orks ca obviously pull it off easy but IG have some trouble doing it, even if they have transports or the doctrines that makes them better in combat. Carapace armour is pretty expensive so your army will be a lot smaller, for every 2 units with CA, you could have an additional squad with a special or heavy weapon. If only sentinels could take heavy bolters, they would be the death of Tau.

Bryn

2007-07-10, 12:25 PM

One way to get close with Guard would be a terrain-heavy board such as in Cities of Death, since you can hide behind cover while you close at which point they will have trouble killing you before you charge. This allows IG to have a chance of swarming the Tau, and I have found that even squads with several casualties have easily wiped out fire warrior squads in a couple of turns, especially when more than one squad charged at once. However, that was in a small game with a novice player, so things could easily work differently on a larger scale.

trollhammeren

2007-07-10, 12:41 PM

One way to get close with Guard would be a terrain-heavy board such as in Cities of Death, since you can hide behind cover while you close at which point they will have trouble killing you before you charge.

Yeah but the problem with that is that Cities of Death is horrible and an insult to proper City Fight. Most of the special combat doctrine thingys (i cant remember the proper name for them) that they have for Cities of Death are normal rules in City Fight. Like the one that lets guys in a buliding 8 inches or higher can shoot the top armour of a vehicle is just a normal rule in City Fight. Even the campaign they made for it was terrible
GW Guy 1: "Hey, lets make a campaign that wont effect anything at all in the galaxy."
GW Guy 2: "Yeah ok."
GW Guy 1: "We also have to make up a reason why the races are ther but theres no space battles."
GW Guy 2: "Its too much effort to make something up, lets just ignore it."
GW Guy 1: "Ok, thumbs up, lets do this."

Bryn

2007-07-10, 12:52 PM

trollhammeren

2007-07-10, 01:09 PM

Touche.

Sorry about the little rant by the way, i just hate Cities of Death and most of the crap that GW is releasing these days. Like the possessed box set. That wasnt for newbs or even noobs, they just wanted more money.

TheOtherMC

2007-07-10, 10:21 PM

Well, I won't argue about the quality of Cities of Death, but the point still stands: in cityfight :smalltongue: the Imperial Guard can use the terrain as cover to get close enough to kill tau in close combat.

One word: Jetpacks

"My stealthsuits are behind this building! Oh now they've come out to pepper you with 18 S5 AP5 shots! OH now they're hiding behind this less easily accessable building and my turn isnt even over yet!"

heretic

2007-07-10, 10:58 PM

They do that anyway.

I would argue that the larger terrain actually works against them, because they can't always clear it and they don't want to land in it due to dangerous terrain checks.

Plus, you're more likely to be inside a nice cozy 4+ cover save instead of getting your toiletpaper flak ripped to shreds by all those AP 5 shots.

The buildings also cut down on lines of sight and therefore, long range weaponry is at a disadvantage, further disabling the Tau strong points.

fatninjacow

2007-07-11, 09:01 AM

i dont mind cities of death cause my huge army of nids is full of licters yay ambush:smallbiggrin:

crazedloon

2007-07-11, 11:04 AM

best way to deal with tau is Dark Eldar. Nothing says love like a first turn assault with most your army and a good deal of dead tanks :smallbiggrin:

then there is the pain when you go second :smallfrown:

Psychotic

2007-07-11, 11:45 AM

Indeed. If you can whittle down Tau forces fast enough (so they can't concentrate their fire) or get them into assault quick enough, the likely-hood of them winning drops drastically.

TheOtherMC

2007-07-11, 11:58 AM

The buildings also cut down on lines of sight and therefore, long range weaponry is at a disadvantage, further disabling the Tau strong points.

Tousche, though thats when the mighty Tau Smart Missles and Seeker Missles finally have a use. :P NO COVER FOR YOU!

Wehrkind

2007-07-11, 03:10 PM

Please spell my name correctly in your sig. I only have ~3 people who quote me, so I need all the credit I can get! :smallwink:

I am kind of hoping to get some some face time with the Tau to discuss how their ineffable xenos nature is an affront to the Emperor, and the various ways they can help ameliorate the issue by way of a torrent of bolter fire. I think it will go a long way towards inter-species understanding and peace. That and the fact they are my favorite DoW race, so I want to see what they are capable of. Other than watching a unit of firewarriors rout off the field after a single assault cannon volley, and laughing after a unit of crisis suits bounced every shot off the collective chests of a unit of my sisters, who then proceeded to rapid fire the alien scum into the ground by the divine guidance of the Almighty Emperor, I don't have much experience with them.

TheOtherMC

2007-07-11, 05:37 PM

Please spell my name correctly in your sig. I only have ~3 people who quote me, so I need all the credit I can get! :smallwink:

MY good sir I am truly embarassed.....

As for your tauist experience, what exactly were these battlesuits using because I find it hard to believe they had THAT much trouble penetrating power armor...

DeathQuaker

2007-07-12, 12:25 PM

As for your tauist experience, what exactly were these battlesuits using because I find it hard to believe they had THAT much trouble penetrating power armor...

If the Sisters have activated "Spirit of the Martyr" for their unit, their save becomes invulnerable for the phase. With luck, having a 3+ invulnerable save allows you to survive some pretty nasty onslaughts.

I myself have frustrated people with my amazing ability to roll lots of saves--though it is offset by the fact that I barely seem able to roll over a 2 when I roll wounds, which sucks playing strength 3 units, and especially when using Divine Guidance and therefore hoping for a 6 or two. :smallsigh:

Although, Wehrkind, if you are talking about the fight I think you are, I would just like to note for the record it was MY Seraphim who knocked out the shield drones (and then took a nasty artillery hit when failing to make my Test of Faith) so you could take out the Battlesuits. :smalltongue:

Wehrkind

2007-07-12, 04:02 PM

Yea, I used spirit of the martyr. It was the mega battle you were thinking of DQ, but the left flank. He popped his battlesuits into the ruins my sisters were moving through, and didn't come out the other side. Actually, I don't remember if he stayed in, or used the jet packs to go back out 6" and I was able to move the sisters far enough to rapid fire him down anyway. Still, it was glorious.
I do remember your Seraphim's martyrdom though. My girls wished you well from afar, and then stayed in their wrecked building far, far away from that blood bath :)
Of course, they lost all but 2 from the deep striking terminators of the vile ruinous powers...

trollhammeren

2007-07-12, 04:31 PM

Yeah, chaos rocks.

Dorizzit

2007-07-12, 07:19 PM

boo, chaos.

Krytha

2007-07-12, 07:35 PM

Although I don't have a chaos army, they were always the most exciting army to look at with their demon selections and sheer customizability. Having access to Greater Daemons always made me WANT!

Siric

2007-07-12, 08:05 PM

The only cool Chaos is Nurgle and his followers. Nurgle Owns almost as much as Tau.

Scroofy

2007-07-12, 08:34 PM

Orks krump all :smallbiggrin:

Dorizzit

2007-07-12, 08:58 PM

Nurgle is owned by Khorne. Orks are owned by anyone with sense of tactics.

JellyPooga

2007-07-12, 09:11 PM

The only cool Chaos is Nurgle and his followers. Nurgle Owns almost as much as Tau.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree...Slaaneshi dominate all others. Who else can get away with wearing pink on a battlefield and still be a bad-A mo-fo? Anyway, who would want their flesh to rot as a gift?

Siric

2007-07-13, 03:32 AM

The only Chaos god lamer the Khorne is Tzeentch. Seriously, followers of Khorne are like Orks that aren't green and have better saves. Slaanesh is cool only cause he eats Eldar souls. Nurgle rocks. He's always happy and has the most twisted sense of gifts. Grandpappy Nurgle Owns you. Death, disease, and Nurglings up the Yin Yang.

trollhammeren

2007-07-13, 07:29 AM

I like the way you think Siric and i would like to subscribe to your news letter.

Slaaneshi dominate all others.

Ehhhhhhhh....... no. Although Emperor's Children are pretty cool, by which i mean Luicis is pretty cool, theyre just a bunch of gimps.

Dorizzit

2007-07-13, 07:44 AM

Opinions, opinions.

trollhammeren

2007-07-13, 08:04 AM

What do you use Dorizzit?

heretic

2007-07-13, 06:07 PM

I'd take anything but Slaanesh if I played Chaos.

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-13, 09:39 PM

I am of the belief that massive amounts of firepower or a swarm of close combat units can take care of any problem. As such, I like the idea of the Guard and the Nids...so many...

The guard can outshoot just about everyone and field a very impressive array of heavy weapons, special weapons, and have so many boots on the ground that the lasgun fire can light up the night...

Nids? They can shoot...but the massive charging hoard is nigh unstoppable...There are just so many that they are hard for anyone to stop...especially when backed with sufficient bio-heavy weapons and rending attacks.

Murongo

2007-07-13, 10:01 PM

Daemon hunters are by far the coolest. The only person cooler than the 40 foot greater demon is the 10 foot terminator that can womp the daemon's shiny red... face. Plus their armor and coloration is just extremely cool looking.

What's even cooler is watching the 100 guardsmen flee in terror as they're cut down by 5 elite grey knights who wield anti-infantry tank weapons in one hand as if they were weightless. Also, their fists are as strong as some anti-tank rifles.

That and the fearlessness. The fearlessness is pretty sweet. And the partial immunity to psychic powers. And the part-emperor-DNA thing. And... you get the idea.

Innocence proves nothing!

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-13, 11:26 PM

Murongo

2007-07-13, 11:35 PM

It is also amusing how those same grey knights dissapear quite fast under a single pie plate from the tank that is always sitting off to the side...or how the transport of those knights gets taken down by 7 Las Cannons all aimed at the thing...the poor poor troopes that are left huddled together must succeed in making saves against so many shots that hit...they are bound to fail a few saves...those few who are left to reach the lines get piled in on and get stuck...or they win...and might not get far enough to get into close combat again...now stuck in the middle of oodles of guard...

Sure playing with guard is tough...but it can be so rewarding...

Nah, the pie plate missed horribly because the grey knight's shrouding make it scatter double, and the 7 las cannons which cost 20x the squad cost only score a couple casualties because the shrouding makes most of them miss instantaneously. Also, their immunity to being pinned allows them to continue their charge, which will undoubtedly succeed because regardless of whether or not they reach their enemy, their fellows who have teleported behind the enemies will sandwhich them.

It doesn't matter how many guardsmen you manage to get into combat with Grey Knights because 1 grey knight will break any amount of IG in melee. Just remember, if the losing squad (always the IG) fails their moral save and ends up fleeing through allies, their allies also have to make a save or flee.

So much overrunning...

Dorizzit

2007-07-14, 07:28 AM

What do you use Dorizzit?

Eldar. They're little girly men, yet somehow manage to be awesome.

Capt'n Ironbrow

2007-07-14, 08:38 AM

Krytha

2007-07-14, 08:54 AM

Just as the Chaos gods despise one another, so do their followers.

Wehrkind

2007-07-14, 09:23 AM

Yea, I have to say that GW did a good job fostering the sorts of rivalries one would expect to see, by way of fluff. As much as I dig the models for chaos, I just can't bring myself to play them. They just seem... wrong. Marines and IG though? Working on a marine army, and the IG are probably next in line.
I may be somewhat in the minority in my bigotry towards other lists (though reading forums I suspect not) but I really just can't get excited about eldar, necrons or chaos. Maybe tau... but that is a real stretch for me. Tyranids have the Starship Troopers thing going for them, so that is a plus for them. Still, it will be hard for me to break away from my loyalist tendancies (though dear god, staring down the barrel of a second 20 hours of painting those bloody Exorcists might do it...)

Maybe orks next though. I do love me some orks..

onasuma

2007-07-14, 09:44 AM

The only cool Chaos is Nurgle and his followers. Nurgle Owns almost as much as Tau.

And that is why i collect tau and nurgle. Yay people who have similar opinions.

heretic

2007-07-14, 01:42 PM

Nah, the pie plate missed horribly because the grey knight's shrouding make it scatter double, and the 7 las cannons which cost 20x the squad cost only score a couple casualties because the shrouding makes most of them miss instantaneously. Also, their immunity to being pinned allows them to continue their charge, which will undoubtedly succeed because regardless of whether or not they reach their enemy, their fellows who have teleported behind the enemies will sandwhich them.

It doesn't matter how many guardsmen you manage to get into combat with Grey Knights because 1 grey knight will break any amount of IG in melee. Just remember, if the losing squad (always the IG) fails their moral save and ends up fleeing through allies, their allies also have to make a save or flee.

So much overrunning...

Shrouding sucks hard Khornate nuts.

It almost never works. Anything that comes remotely close to possibly failing the roll just finds another target instead of trying.

I find that stand alone Daemonhunters get stomped by anything, especially if they rely on Grey Knights.

And a hundred guardsmen would easily tear 5 Knights into tiny, tiny bite sized pieces.

onasuma

2007-07-14, 02:10 PM

Hi everyone. Im starting a new space marine army, and yes i already know the basics.
Background wise, they had a short peroid of fighting Iron Warriors, being greatly outmatched, in each fight. They made use of tactics stolen from the legion, and thus have a similar structure in the army.

1000 point list
Captain: Thunder Hammer, Storm Sheild, artificer armour 110pts
Dreadnaught: Missile launcher and TL lascannon 135pts
4 marines + serg with bolters, 1 missile launcher 95pts
4 marines + serg with bolters, 1 missile launcher 95pts
5 devestators + Vet serg, 4 missile launchers 185pts
5 devestators + Vet serg, 4 missile launchers 185pts
5 devestators + Vet serg, 4 missile launchers 185pts

What do people think?

heretic

2007-07-14, 02:36 PM

They'll be eaten alive in close combat and will also be vastly outnumbered by just about any other army.

Also, claiming objectives will be really hard with so many heavy weapons.

onasuma

2007-07-14, 02:55 PM

Yeah. I thorght as much. then again, the more units they have, the more cramped they are, and the more useful the 15 templates become

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-14, 02:55 PM

I think the plan is to blast everything and be done with combat by round 4 or so...then walk up and take whatever objectives need taking.

In 1000 pts, no amount of tanks will stand up to that firepower if there is a clear enough shot leaving turn 2 to let loose volleys against any troops trying to advance. Though...depending on the enemy and who goes first, they may only get that first turn of shooting...

They will get royally hosed by scenarios that make them move in from the edge first turn...that will deny them their ability to fire, and then they will likely have to reposition again to be in a good position to fire...by then it will be too late. Putting all your eggs in heavy weapons like that without any real means of moving around might be a bad idea...close combat or special weapons...not that bad...but that many special weapons...could be problematic.

Also...if they go first...you can bet any ordinance will be trying to score big with those nice squishy devastator squads...

onasuma

2007-07-14, 03:08 PM

Oh, i fogot the combat patrol list. This REALLY works well.

1 captain bolter and cc weapon
10 marines
8 marines
5 devastators, 4 missile launchers

Eldpollard

2007-07-14, 03:16 PM

I'm not sure whether to do Sisters or Orks. Orks have the comedy element and pander to my need of having huge amounts of troops. However I like the fluff of the sisters more. Well it'll have to wait I'm going to be starting blood bowl.

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-14, 03:25 PM

I always wondered weather the arcade game predated the miniatures game or vice versa...blood bowl I mean...

JellyPooga

2007-07-14, 03:43 PM

The only Rockin' 40k race since ed. 3 is Slaanesh Chaos Marines! why? 'cause they have Noise Marines!

but the "sci-fi dwarves" the Salamanders legion of loyalist space marines are great too... bought a whole army of 'em a year before I stopped playing table-top games on a regular basis (in essence, it was a waste of money :()

That's really kinda weird...I am a big fan of Slaanshi Noise Marines ('cos they ROCKlike no-one else can..I mean these guys have centuries to get that axe really going good)...but I am also a fan of the Slamanders loyalist Chapter...is there some kind of subliminal link between the Salamanders and Slaanshi's? (I even designed a 13th founding (the lost one) Chapter that are the only ones that have the Salamanders as a parent gene-seed...hey, I know just about everyone else has done it too, but mine were worshippers of Slaanesh and made extensive use of specially modded Flame Throwers [that were, incidentally, mechanically exactly the same as sonic blasters...] ).

Murongo

2007-07-14, 04:47 PM

Shrouding sucks hard Khornate nuts.

It almost never works. Anything that comes remotely close to possibly failing the roll just finds another target instead of trying.

I find that stand alone Daemonhunters get stomped by anything, especially if they rely on Grey Knights.

And a hundred guardsmen would easily tear 5 Knights into tiny, tiny bite sized pieces.

Ignorance! Shrouding is decided after one declares shooting at a grey knight. If they fail the range, their round is entirely lost. They can't pick a different target instead.

100 guardsmen wouldn't stand a chance against 5 GK in straight melee. They always, without fail, break and run. They fail every round of melee miserably. The only way for IG to beat GK in melee is if IG have the charge and they manage to not break for a round until they can fill in. This rarely happens.

Pure GK is obviously silly because you're limiting yourself where you don't have to. My 2000 pt list includes a squad of stormtroopers, 1 squad of GK with psycannons for ranged harrassment, 1 grand master and terminator retinue, and either one or two more squads of terminators depending on my enemy (grey knight terminators are only 41 pts and are like normal terminators except all the GK special abilities+ they act in initiative order and have 5 WS, they're godly). Past that I keep 2 squads of IG with chimeras and a basilisk or leman russ depending on my opponent. Sometimes I throw in an inquisitor if I don't have the second terminator squad, just because inquisitors are cool.

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-14, 05:26 PM

I think he means that if he would need to roll 14+ on 3d6 they will elect to not shoot at them to avoid the shroud wasting their shots and just pound another target.

heretic

2007-07-14, 05:28 PM

Ignorance! Shrouding is decided after one declares shooting at a grey knight. If they fail the range, their round is entirely lost. They can't pick a different target instead.

Exactly. The shrouding roll can be estimated very easily, so if you think you are going to fail, you choose another target BEFORE shooting. But since the radius is so large, it rarely matters.

100 guardsmen wouldn't stand a chance against 5 GK in straight melee.

A hundred guardsmen would never allow five grey knights to survive the shooting phase. If they did, what would happen is the GK get the charge. They annihilate a squad of guardsmen, either by killing them all or in the sweeping advance. Then the other nine squads of guardsmen charge and the Knights get killed to a man.

Pure GK is obviously silly because you're limiting yourself where you don't have to. My 2000 pt list includes a squad of stormtroopers, 1 squad of GK with psycannons for ranged harrassment, 1 grand master and terminator retinue, and either one or two more squads of terminators depending on my enemy (grey knight terminators are only 41 pts and are like normal terminators except all the GK special abilities+ they act in initiative order and have 5 WS, they're godly). Past that I keep 2 squads of IG with chimeras and a basilisk or leman russ depending on my opponent. Sometimes I throw in an inquisitor if I don't have the second terminator squad, just because inquisitors are cool.

By "stand alone" Daemonhunters, I was talking about any DH army that was not being used as allies, although inductions do help.

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-14, 06:02 PM

Someone had a neat army around they called the 'Automarines'...I found their battlereports online...they were space marine and DH...really cool fluff nd excellent paint jobs.

Their Dreadnaught was the best...a Venerable Dreadnaught as an HQ choice? painted like G1 Optimus Prime with the head of Optimus Prime on top of the model and the chestplate of the truck on the front of the model...

http://www.automarines.com/images/oppycorner-165x113.jpg

a link to the Automarines homepage (http://www.automarines.com/Units.html) and their nemeis, the Deceptitau...so awesome...

Murongo

2007-07-14, 09:30 PM

Exactly. The shrouding roll can be estimated very easily, so if you think you are going to fail, you choose another target BEFORE shooting. But since the radius is so large, it rarely matters.

A hundred guardsmen would never allow five grey knights to survive the shooting phase. If they did, what would happen is the GK get the charge. They annihilate a squad of guardsmen, either by killing them all or in the sweeping advance. Then the other nine squads of guardsmen charge and the Knights get killed to a man.

By "stand alone" Daemonhunters, I was talking about any DH army that was not being used as allies, although inductions do help.

You can estimate a random number between 9 and 54? The situation in question was marines versus IG in melee, obviously the IG are better at range. But 5 Gk can kill a lot more than 1 squad of IG without going out in a blaze, purely by breaking the first squad's morale and starting a chain reaction of retreat or, as a little known rule, you can lock any unit 2" away in melee at the end of a sweeping advance (or consolidation) in which case you enter melee next turn and you can't be shot at.

I haven't seen it happen many times with basic GK as I use basic GK for range and terminators for melee but I've seen many more than 100 guardsmen go down to one squad of GK terminators.

Also, inducting is superior to having another army and using Daemonhunters as allies. IG who ally GK are more or less the same as GK inducting IG except that when making chimera squads the GK army doesn't have to fulfill a 1-platoon-per-armored-fist that the IG army has to fulfill. The only problem is that the GK army doesn't get doctrines like the IG would, but there's not much point for doctrines when your IG are meat shields/bullet magnets for the GK which can actually do damage.

heretic

2007-07-14, 10:51 PM

You can estimate a random number between 9 and 54?

Yes. Standard 24" weapons will almost never be effected. If my range is good, then I don't have to worry. Heavy weapons are a little trickier.

The situation in question was marines versus IG in melee, obviously the IG are better at range. But 5 Gk can kill a lot more than 1 squad of IG without going out in a blaze, purely by breaking the first squad's morale and starting a chain reaction of retreat or, as a little known rule, you can lock any unit 2" away in melee at the end of a sweeping advance (or consolidation) in which case you enter melee next turn and you can't be shot at.

Correct, you lock 90 guardsmen and then they tear you to pieces.

I haven't seen it happen many times with basic GK as I use basic GK for range and terminators for melee but I've seen many more than 100 guardsmen go down to one squad of GK terminators.

I seriously doubt it was all thanks to just one unit. What was the rest of your army doing?

Also, inducting is superior to having another army and using Daemonhunters as allies. IG who ally GK are more or less the same as GK inducting IG except that when making chimera squads the GK army doesn't have to fulfill a 1-platoon-per-armored-fist that the IG army has to fulfill. The only problem is that the GK army doesn't get doctrines like the IG would, but there's not much point for doctrines when your IG are meat shields/bullet magnets for the GK which can actually do damage.

You don't get command platoons when you induct. Command platoons are really important.

Psychotic

2007-07-15, 10:36 AM

/yawn

Regardless of what the Imperials or the Inquisition or the Space Marines or Chaos or Tau are doing, the Eldar are still keeping it real on their big, floating, artificial planets.

I just started up playing with around with the new Eldar Codex (Being a Necron player before) and I love it immensely. Pretty much every unit in the Eldar army is like a surgeon's tools which have to be used in the right place at the right time otherwise you are going down faster than you can say "Lawsuit".

Dire Avengers are a great troop choice, 18" Assault 2 weapons (I hate Rapid Fire weapons) with S4/AP5 and have them led by an Exarch with Blade Storm? A squad of ten can launch over 30 shots that is very likely to do a great deal of damage. Combine them with a Farseer with Guide (allows you to reroll missed shots with a unit of your choice) and/or Doom (allows you to reroll wounds against an enemy unit), it is going to hurt.

Other great troop choices are Shining Spears (Jetbikers with Str. 6 Power Weapons on the Charge? Sweet!), who can deal a hefty amount of damage with a single charge. I've taken out entire squads of Space Marines on just a single charge. Dark Reapers are amazing against anything in Power Armor. With 48" range on their Reaper Launchers, they're delivering Heavy 2 S5/AP3 shots en masse. One round of shooting is very likely to just clobber most infantry. Give their Exarch a Eldar Missile Launcher and the Fast Shot ability and he'll just tear up face with 2 S8/AP3 shots a turn.

Wehrkind

2007-07-15, 03:26 PM

Bryn

2007-07-15, 04:17 PM

(other than GW's site.)

Do you mean that we shouldn't say 'buy the box', or nothing from GW at all? GW do sell the bits seperately (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947010118701&orignav=10) (UK site link)...

Sorry if that's no help...

CaptainSam

2007-07-15, 04:50 PM

Dire Avengers are a great troop choice, 18" Assault 2 weapons (I hate Rapid Fire weapons) with S4/AP5 and have them led by an Exarch with Blade Storm? A squad of ten can launch over 30 shots that is very likely to do a great deal of damage. Combine them with a Farseer with Guide (allows you to reroll missed shots with a unit of your choice) and/or Doom (allows you to reroll wounds against an enemy unit), it is going to hurt.

In a recent Eldar (me) vs. Orks, my Banshees did surprisingly well. They managed to take out 2 full units of Kommandoes and a Kan as well. They were led by Miss Jain Zar, though.

The Doom/Guide/Blade Storm combo works a treat againt Orks as well, then my Exarch went toe-to-toe for six (yes, SIX) combat rounds and survived. He then legged it like a big cowardly custard.

One thing I learned in that game; Harlequins vs. Hardboyz = multicoloured stain on the battlefield. Ignore the grots, no matter how much fun they are to kill!

DeathQuaker

2007-07-16, 07:06 AM

Ok, random solicitation: anyone have assault cannon bits for a land speeder? I didn't realize Land Speeder box sets did not come with the parts for the various weapons layouts (in this case typhoon.) Battlewagon availed me not. So if you have some, pitch me a PM. Or if you know where I can get some (other than GW's site.)
Same for termies with assault cannons. I can't bring myself to buy a 50$ box set for one gun arm...

Honestly, best way to order bitz is directly from GW's site; unfortunate to your preferences. They have everything, and the individual bitz are usually not too, too expensive. Plus sometimes if you order a lot of stuff they'll give you a free mini or two. I generally avoid paying full price for any Citadel product, but if you want bitz this is the way to go. (Or if you happen to live near an official Regional GW store, you can do bitz orders at the shop, but I believe the nearest such shop is in Tennessee or something.)

But... I guess you could call The Warstore (http://www.thewarstore.com) and see if you can phone-order bitz from them, but I'm 90% sure they sell only full boxes and blisters. (Otherwise, I highly recommend that site for all of your miniature needs.)

Beyond that, it's just eBay and raiding your friends' bitz boxes.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-16, 07:15 AM

My nearest shop is a 15 minute walk away.
...But then, that means little, doesn't it?

I'm thinking of making an army composed of 6 squads of Fire Warriors in Devilfish, a commander, a bodyguard and a Hammerhead. Mostly just to annoy a friend of mine who uses lots of conscript guardsmen. It's a bit lacking in heavy weapons but any light vehicles should fall prey to the 72 pulse rifle shots. Mostly I'm just thinking how fun it would be to array a firing line of 72 fire warriors against the imperial guard. Wouldn't work against anyone with proper armour, but it'd be fun.

Klinnei

2007-07-16, 07:15 AM

I just ordered the Tau megaforce and codex. What other units should I buy? I already have a kroot hounds blister pack that I planned to use for customization for another army, but never opened.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-16, 07:18 AM

I'd definitely consider picking up at least a unit of Kroot. They can, at the very least, tie up enemies in close combat, if not defeat them outright, giving your fire warriors precious time to move elsewhere. Especially if you've already got some Hounds. :P

Might consider getting some more Crisis Suits and a unit of Pathfinders. Both can be incredibly useful against a variety of opponents depending on the situation.

Wehrkind

2007-07-16, 09:44 AM

Yea, I wanted to avoid ordering off GW's site as best as I could, since for two assault cannons they want 7$ in shipping, rather more than the cannons themselves cost. After I got done cleaning the spit out of my eye, I decided I wanted another option. There is a game store ~20 minutes away or so that does bitz orders, if very slowly and unreliably, so I will probably break down and order through them to avoid shipping.
Maybe get some eviscerators for my Seraphim superiors too.

Murongo

2007-07-16, 10:24 AM

I just ordered the Tau megaforce and codex. What other units should I buy? I already have a kroot hounds blister pack that I planned to use for customization for another army, but never opened.

Instead of getting kroot just get more devilfish for the fire warriors. Use mobility to avoid your enemies instead of throwing some meat to the dogs (by using kroot) to keep them at bay. My friend does this obnoxiously good tactic where he forms a wedge with two devilfish, unloads his tau between the two, they can shoot, but the tanks prevent anyone from charging them. They load back up, move elsewhere.

I would definitely suggest some crisis suit if points allow, and pathfinders aren't bad. IMO the only "weak" units in a Tau army are kroot and stealth suits. Things like broadsides are situational but have their place, and basic fire warriors and crisis suits are just universally awesome.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-16, 10:40 AM

Well, Devilfish is the obvious choice, but if he's already got some Kroot Hounds, why put them to waste? It's not much for a squad of Kroot.

Wehrkind

2007-07-16, 03:00 PM

I am rather a fan of tarpit units like kroot and traitor guard etc., especially in a shooty army. Having something that can tie up really shooty units, or melee units for a little, is really handy, particularly in a more focused army like Tau (where, unlike marines, you can't punch things as effectively as you can shoot them.)

Flirkann

2007-07-16, 09:06 PM

Have you checked out "Battle Wagon Bitz" for components?
They specialise in parts for conversions and such, should be able to do you a better deal than GW.
http://www.battlewagon-bits.com/

heretic

2007-07-16, 10:36 PM

I'm pretty sure he already checked.

They are always sold out of assault cannons anyway.

Eolar

2007-07-17, 12:37 AM

Does anyone on these boards live in CA/Bay Area (Around Palo Alto/Mountain View/Los Altos) and know a good place to game? I've been looking for a place to go since my local gaming shop closed up and I've got over 2k points of Tyranid Swarm army gathering dust =P

onasuma

2007-07-17, 10:24 AM

Hi all, me again.

I was wondering, does anyone else here use vassal at all?

Wehrkind

2007-07-17, 05:15 PM

Yea, I already hit up Battle Wagon. While I recommend them highly for low prices and very fast shipping, their selection is sometimes a little anemic. Still, a great little site. My only real sadness is that they don't keep Witch Hunter bitz in stock, and their non-SM stuff can be lacking as well.
I figure I will order bitz through the game store around here, and in the intervening months tape a bundle of toothpicks painted black to the bottom of the speeders. A little aggression when explaining they are actually assault cannons should do the trick :)

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-18, 01:29 AM

I was actually happy looking at the GW selection...I had been wondering if it was possible to buy certian IG pieces without getting whole packs just to get certian figures...like...medics, or Plasma Gunners. I didn't want to have a bunch of Melta gunners just sitting around just because I wanted a certian amount of plasma in my command squads if I started collecting guard. Being able to just buy a bunch of plasma gunners is a good thing...or just some heavy weapons...

Maybe I'll look more into what is there...

For tyranids it seems great...after all, I keep hearing how they never incude enough of certian biomorphs for warriors or some other brood that you always have to mod or do some shuffling...was it scything talons or rending claws...I am not sure...

As a total strange note...has anyone ever decided to do the complete 'mindless swarm' and just used a massive amount of ripper swarms? They are slow, but they are kinda stout with 3 wounds apiece...You would have to back them with some sort of heavy support and bugs with big guns to take care of armor...but it makes me wonder if they have possibilities...if anything a huge ripper swarm would just make people drop their jaw in disbelief...

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 06:25 AM

I thought at first that would be a pretty small army, as Rippers are pretty cheap. I forgot how MANY things you can actually put on rippers.

You only have 6 troops choices and 3 fast attack choices (winged rippers count as fast attack)...10 bases of rippers each. You're going to have 90 ripper bases, and its suggested that there are potentially dozens of rippers in a base (I think that the model displays 5, is it? Or is it 3 and Necron Scarabs display 5? I forget).

So, with that in mind, if you make them AS EXPENSIVE as you can, you're going to have... 1,470 points of rippers in your troops choices, and another 1,005 in your fast attack choices. Assuming you use 3 warriors with the cheapest biomorphs possible for HQ to cut down costs, your HQ is only taking up another 54 points. This puts your largest potential ripper swarm army at 2,529 points. A large, but not too unreasonable game. Cut out the winged rippers and you're at 1,524 points, just over 1,500. Pretty sweet, I think. Of course, it'll get screwed over by anything with a minimum Av of 11 or more. Get a bunch of template and blast weapons and they'll be unhappy too. Go Space Marines, get a minimal number of troops choices and a cheap HQ, then just get lots of vehicles. Predator Destructors should make this force cry by a reasonable amount, as theoretically would Missile Launchers.

I'm actually tempted to do this now. I'm gonna put it right next to my 'Gretchin Army' idea.

Bryn

2007-07-18, 09:31 AM

I would love to see that army using the Forge World rippers:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/rippers8store.jpg

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 09:51 AM

I just realised, cut out the spinefists and you save 30 points on troops choices, giving you 1,494 points of rippers and a warrior HQ with 6 points left over to spend on biomorphs for your superfluous little leader guys, without breaking the 1,500 point barrier.

TheOtherMC

2007-07-18, 10:30 AM

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 10:36 AM

I can already hear the Tau dying left and right........... *Shudders*

Are you kidding me? Three hammerheads will tear an army of rippers to pieces, and that's less than a third of the same points value. Even one could eliminate a large number of them in one turn (Submunitions have twice the strength of a Ripper Swarm's toughness and have a large template, not to mention the fact that even if they were tougher, they've got decent AP too). Like any other Tau vs. Tyranid match, a lot of it would depend on whether or not there was a large amount of cover, and even then they've got issues. The winged rippers are fast, ground rippers...not so much. They'd have to get lucky, methinks.

While the ripper swarm army is a fun idea, it falls apart in the face of lots of vehicles, methinks. It's major redeeming feature has to be the fact that the enemy needs to cause 180 wounds to eliminate every base (though blasts and templates cause double wounds, so that makes it a bit easier on some armies).

Now, were I necrons, I'd be worried.

Still, this would be a really fun army to just surprise someone with. "Yeah, standard game, I'm fine with that. Got my whole army right here. 1500 pts, yeah. Oh, you're ready to deploy? Okay. *Sticks down the 60 ripper swarms.*"

TheOtherMC

2007-07-18, 11:27 AM

Now, were I necrons, I'd be worried.

Not if you had an all scarab army...... :smallbiggrin:

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 11:31 AM

Not if you had an all scarab army...... :smallbiggrin:

Ha, I'd still be worried. Scarabs are fast attack, not troops, have lower initiative. Though, to be fair, they can move pretty damn quick (counting as jetbikes for movement and combat purposes).

TheOtherMC

2007-07-18, 11:51 AM

Ha, I'd still be worried. Scarabs are fast attack, not troops, have lower initiative. Though, to be fair, they can move pretty damn quick (counting as jetbikes for movement and combat purposes).

Ive just always wanted to see scarabs vs rippers

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 11:52 AM

Ive just always wanted to see scarabs vs rippers

I could arrange that, if you like. :smallconfused:

I've actually been thinking of doing online battle reports with myself, given I've got the codices but nowhere near enough miniatures to play anything but a minimal game with Tau. I've got the photoshop skills and the perseverance.

TheOtherMC

2007-07-18, 11:58 AM

I could arrange that, if you like. :smallconfused:

I've actually been thinking of doing online battle reports with myself, given I've got the codices but nowhere near enough miniatures to play anything but a minimal game with Tau. I've got the photoshop skills and the perseverance.

Scratch that, rippers vs scarabs vs drones!!!

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 12:04 PM

Scratch that, rippers vs scarabs vs drones!!!

Why not go so far as Rippers vs. Scarabs vs. Drones vs. Gretchin vs. Conscripts, since we're going for swarms of pathetic things? :smallbiggrin:

TheOtherMC

2007-07-18, 12:09 PM

Why not go so far as Rippers vs. Scarabs vs. Drones vs. Gretchin vs. Conscripts, since we're going for swarms of pathetic things? :smallbiggrin:

Cultists???

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 12:14 PM

Cultists???

I can't honestly think of anything crap Space Marines have to stick in there. Though a Space Marine army would probably outnumber the Tyranid army in the number of models (suped up rippers are actually really expensive. XD)

TheOtherMC

2007-07-18, 12:17 PM

I can't honestly think of anything crap Space Marines have to stick in there. Though a Space Marine army would probably outnumber the Tyranid army in the number of models (suped up rippers are actually really expensive. XD)

SERVOSKULLS!!!

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 12:18 PM

SERVOSKULLS!!!

Yeaaaah, the problem there is that you can't make an army of servoskulls without going out of codex rules. :smallwink:

TheOtherMC

2007-07-18, 12:20 PM

Yeaaaah, the problem there is that you can't make an army of servoskulls without going out of codex rules. :smallwink:

...........LIES!

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 12:23 PM

...........LIES!

I demand that you prove it, then. :smallamused:

TheOtherMC

2007-07-18, 12:28 PM

I demand that you prove it, then. :smallamused:

Um....eh......sorry, dont own a marine codex...

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 12:32 PM

Heh, yeah, that's what I thought.

I only have one question, though. If I were to start making online battle reports just for gits and shiggles (using randomly generated terrain, portrayed over photoshop)...would anyone out there be willing to write and contribute army lists if I requested it?

TheOtherMC

2007-07-18, 12:33 PM

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 12:35 PM

I'd try.....but dont know how much good id be

Ha, you wouldn't necessarily have to be any good at it. I'd just like to get help doing it because it removes any designer bias I might make in army lists used (for example, making large numbers of swarms and then filling the other army with lots of blast and template weapons.)

Bryn

2007-07-18, 12:44 PM

Actually, a force of Guard fighting off a swarm of rippers with templates could be a very exciting battle. It makes me think of the mind worms of alpha centauri. The swarm would, however, be significantly larger than the Guard force, but the Guard have the advantage of defenses and template weapons.

At least, I think it would be great :smallbiggrin:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Tyranids/rippers9.jpg

Edited due to page-stretching...

TheOtherMC

2007-07-18, 12:46 PM

onasuma

2007-07-18, 12:52 PM

I would love to see that army using the Forge World rippers:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/rippers8store.jpg

Mine does. It will also use the forgeworld flying tyrant, and a few carn peices once its finished.

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 12:57 PM

must resist urge oh god I hate myself for coming back to this thread?

Ok who wants to do a PBP game:smallbiggrin: ? any army any point value (ok within reason)
If you need an army list I can easily provide any evil list (ok I may not know all the rules for the armys but I can make the list as I have enemies of the imperium (and they are such pretty lists) )

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 01:02 PM

You'll need someone neutral to act as an impartial judge and to draw up images of where everything is (positioning is VERY important in 40k after all).

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 01:06 PM

indeed that is the only problem with it. However if you were up for making battle reports already you could be the judge :smalltongue:

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 01:11 PM

I could do. I may or may not get a job this summer, meaning I could have a lot of time available for it. I'm willing to do so if you really want, though.

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 01:15 PM

lol its probably just a crazy Idea I cooked up that I wont have enough time for though :smallfrown: (but if someone else realy wants I'll be first on the list)

Anywho army lists don't take to long to cook up so if you need any evil I can come up with a few.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 01:16 PM

As long as they aren't filled with dirty cheese (Iron Warriors Obliterator Armies, I'm looking at you...) I'm good with it.

EDIT: Also, for reference, this (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/SaithisBladewing/WH40k/Killteam-03-Opening-1.jpg) is the kind of art I use for my battle reports, with this (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/SaithisBladewing/WH40k/Killteam-02-TurnB1.jpg) as another good example. :smallconfused:

Bryn

2007-07-18, 02:23 PM

Aw... I thought you were talking about photoshopping pictures of models like Games Workshop do for the box art. An entire battle report of that would be great... hopefully :smallbiggrin:

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 02:28 PM

Aw... I thought you were talking about photoshopping pictures of models like Games Workshop do for the box art. An entire battle report of that would be great... hopefully :smallbiggrin:

Hah, well, I could (not nearly as well as they could so I balk at the idea) do that too, but those are the overhead maps to give the reader a detailed tactical view of what's actually going on.

Siric

2007-07-18, 03:01 PM

I'd be interested in a PBP game, but they should prolly get their own threads *shrug* And I'd be willing to submit in a Tau, Cron, or Chaos (Nurgle) army.

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 03:18 PM

hmm ok Im up for it you say the points I will have the list and if Saithis Bladewing is up for it he can be judge/ cartographer. and we can send him the list prior to us starting and we can make a new thread.

Grasilich

2007-07-18, 03:33 PM

Nah, the pie plate missed horribly because the grey knight's shrouding make it scatter double and the 7 las cannons which cost 20x the squad cost only score a couple casualties because the shrouding makes most of them miss instantaneously.

What the hell? Shrouding is 3d6 x 3. If your Grey Knights are that far away, then you've already lost.

Ignorance! Shrouding is decided after one declares shooting at a grey knight. If they fail the range, their round is entirely lost. They can't pick a different target instead.

I think what he meant was that if a Grey Knight squad is so far away that it could possibly not be in the range of 3d6x3, then anyone with half a brain is going to choose to shoot at something closer.

100 guardsmen wouldn't stand a chance against 5 GK in straight melee. They always, without fail, break and run. They fail every round of melee miserably. The only way for IG to beat GK in melee is if IG have the charge and they manage to not break for a round until they can fill in. This rarely happens.

If you use Grey Knights against Guard, you're basically begging to get obliterated. Hell, if you take ANY Terminators period against any Guard player worth his salt you're begging to lose. Your squad of 5 GK Terminators cost you 245 points. The IG player deep strikes a squad of 6 Hardened Vets right next to them, armed with 3 plasma guns. That squad cost him 78 points. Or hell, he drops a Special Weapon Squad with a Demo Charge. That cost him 45 points.

Grey Knights are for fighting Daemons. They do good enough against Necrons too. But against Guard they're just a stupid idea.

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 03:57 PM

Grasilich calm down let him have his misconception about GK.

I enjoy GKs they actually make my most pricey unit 1000% worth it. I can shred through half the army with my HQ ( arcon/incubi) and the other half is easily mopped up with the rest of the army.

GK are a strong army model for model not point for point.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 04:01 PM

Grasilich

2007-07-18, 04:31 PM

I'm actually proxying up a Witches army later this weekend for the sake of making my current campaign a bit more fluffy. I've never played them before and they're pretty odd. The S/T of a Guardsman shoved into Power Armour. Those Faith rules are neat though, especially Spirit of the Martyr (3+ Inv save for a phase). Seraphims are pretty cool too.

We're doing that Defend the Shrine mission and he's playing Renegades (Chaos IG from the very latest Imperial Armour), so my general plan is to get in close and try to break his morale (Renegades have random leadership... each squad's leadership is d6 + 4... so each squad may either be leadership 5 or 10. Makes for good times. I really need to get to using Fear of the Darkness against that...)

Murongo

2007-07-18, 05:07 PM

Grey Knights can compete things like city-fights, they just need to have enough cover to move into position relatively unmolested. But yeah, they are admittedly the second weakest army.

I quite enjoy Witch Hunters though, both thematically and gameplay-wise.

Grey Knights aren't weak at all if you know how to use them. Admittedly they have low ranged survivability but that's why they have teleportation. People try to mass basic grey knights and go at it on foot, which is why they so often fail. The only units I don't teleport are terminators which I march behind iron fist chimeras.

I've won many games with grey knights against both friends and strangers at gamesdays and GW stores, and I've only ever lost once and stalemated 3 or 4 (I've played easily 100 games in my life). People just don't know how to use Grey Knights.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 05:11 PM

Grey Knights aren't weak at all if you know how to use them. Admittedly they have low ranged survivability but that's why they have teleportation. People try to mass basic grey knights and go at it on foot, which is why they so often fail. The only units I don't teleport are terminators which I march behind iron fist chimeras.

I've won many games with grey knights against both friends and strangers at gamesdays and GW stores, and I've only ever lost once and stalemated 3 or 4 (I've played easily 100 games in my life). People just don't know how to use Grey Knights.

The problem with Grey Knights is that they suffer from 'elite force' syndrome. Sure, they're good in close combat, but they're almost twice the cost of a standard marine for only a few more benefits, and like fighting Deathwing armies, if they've invested in a reasonable amount of AP2 weaponry, you're pretty much hosed. You are right in that Grey Knights are underrated, but I still don't think that they can stand up to most of the other armies in terms of competitiveness. Though whether I'd call them or Orks second worst is a difficult one for me, to be honest.

Murongo

2007-07-18, 05:15 PM

What the hell? Shrouding is 3d6 x 3. If your Grey Knights are that far away, then you've already lost.

Again ignorance, the conversation was about ordinance and the double scatter distance, not basic guns.

I think what he meant was that if a Grey Knight squad is so far away that it could possibly not be in the range of 3d6x3, then anyone with half a brain is going to choose to shoot at something closer.

His point was that IG guns are so short-ranged that they rarely fail against shrouding, which is true, and entirely unrelated.

If you use Grey Knights against Guard, you're basically begging to get obliterated. Hell, if you take ANY Terminators period against any Guard player worth his salt you're begging to lose. Your squad of 5 GK Terminators cost you 245 points. The IG player deep strikes a squad of 6 Hardened Vets right next to them, armed with 3 plasma guns. That squad cost him 78 points. Or hell, he drops a Special Weapon Squad with a Demo Charge. That cost him 45 points.

If you aren't in melee yet with the terminators you're dead even without the IG drop squads (what are the chances they come in at the exact right time?) I actually find demons are my toughest opponents, as they get all the fancy things chaos get when they fight GK. GK are awesome against guard if you know how to manipulate melee and morale.

I also feel it's necessary to not only discount your tactic but the numbers behind it. Let's be kind to the IG and say they manage to hit with 2 plasma guns and 1 terminator is wounded and fails his save. That's 41 pts gone. Next round they're in melee and by your numbers the IG loses 78 points. That's a net win for Grey Knights. Besides, nobody is cowardly with GK (at least nobody who intends to win), it's the kind of army where you sacrifice 500 points in order to smuggle 100 points worth of units into melee, at which point they make up for the 500 and more.

Grey Knights are for fighting Daemons. They do good enough against Necrons too. But against Guard they're just a stupid idea.

Gee, how many times have you played with Grey Knights, I wonder, seeing as you clearly play another race? As I said before, demons are some of my hardest opponents. You are right though, GK are incredible against necron (power weapons and melee means they die and they don't get back up.)

I think Games Workshop knows a little bit more about balance than you do, and they wouldn't make an army that's only good against one enemy.

Murongo

2007-07-18, 05:18 PM

The problem with Grey Knights is that they suffer from 'elite force' syndrome. Sure, they're good in close combat, but they're almost twice the cost of a standard marine for only a few more benefits, and like fighting Deathwing armies, if they've invested in a reasonable amount of AP2 weaponry, you're pretty much hosed. You are right in that Grey Knights are underrated, but I still don't think that they can stand up to most of the other armies in terms of competitiveness. Though whether I'd call them or Orks second worst is a difficult one for me, to be honest.

Maybe not as good as tau or deathwing, but that's hardly fair :P. As a note I have two friends who play tau and one who plays deathwing and I beat them consistently.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 05:20 PM

Maybe not as good as tau or deathwing, but that's hardly fair :P. As a note I have two friends who play tau and one who plays deathwing and I beat them consistently.

At least you can quite easily say you're better than the Dark Eldar. *Snickers at the leather-clad losers in the corner.* Oh how I hope they get graced with a new codex someday soon. It's not that I like them, I don't, but they really do need it. Badly.

And remember, tactics and skill make a much bigger impact than your army, but at the end of the day, if you have two equally skilled tacticians, the advantage goes to the one with the better army. Doesn't mean they'll win, but it's more likely, for sure.

Murongo

2007-07-18, 05:25 PM

At least you can quite easily say you're better than the Dark Eldar. *Snickers at the leather-clad losers in the corner.* Oh how I hope they get graced with a new codex someday soon. It's not that I like them, I don't, but they really do need it. Badly.

And remember, tactics and skill make a much bigger impact than your army, but at the end of the day, if you have two equally skilled tacticians, the advantage goes to the one with the better army. Doesn't mean they'll win, but it's more likely, for sure.

Yeah I don't know what the ratio is but I'll bet it's something like: 50% dice luck, 40% skill 10% army. However, I consider the specific units you buy within the army as "skill". If you didn't it would probably be like 50% luck 25% skill 25% army.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 05:32 PM

Yeah I don't know what the ratio is but I'll bet it's something like: 50% dice luck, 40% skill 10% army. However, I consider the specific units you buy within the army as "skill". If you didn't it would probably be like 50% luck 25% skill 25% army.

Absolutely. Part of skill is knowing not just how to use what you have, but how to allocate your points. No point wasting points, if you know what I mean.

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 06:01 PM

At least you can quite easily say you're better than the Dark Eldar. *Snickers at the leather-clad losers in the corner.* Oh how I hope they get graced with a new codex someday soon. It's not that I like them, I don't, but they really do need it. Badly.

Oh what a fool you are. I will agree DE are a fickle army and more often then not they are played poorly (mostly by the younger crowd) But DE are one of the more powerful races. If you look at their W/L ratio in torny play they are well above most. They just aren't played as often and thus not seen as often winning.

DE have a strong base unit warriors with a raider can move within CC first or second turn (first with small board or poor deployment on your opponents side) they pack str 4 ap 5 assault 4 weapons and have a BS 4 (so they are going to hit and wound your guys) then they can charge and hold their own against any non-powerarmored foe and even marines will lose a few to a warrior unit. Then the raider itself has one of the best guns in the game on it (ok thats my opinion due to the fact that you never need better then a 4+) or you can upgrade to a unit shredder i.e. disintegrator. a must on a raider are slave snares as they can easily reak havoc and make that raider an actual target as apposed to a nuisance. And that unit cost a lot less then any marine unit will.

Then you take into acount strong units like

wyches. They easily cut through power armored foes and as above are in combat 1st turn if not then 2nd.

Incubi. Pricey but coupled with an already strong lord this is nothing I know of that can actually stand in outright combat with these guys.

Grotesques. highly underrated if you ask me have a unit of these and hide Hamuncli in them and you have yourslef a giant PIA

The biggest reason DE are a strong army is that they shut down 1/2 of an armies normal game plan (shooting) without loosing to much in return. And against armies like Tau that is their only plan and they get boned. Armies like SM will try to fight back but due to lower maneuverability and outright outclassing by better CC units they have a hard time of it.

if you doubt the power of DE then you have never seen a archon/archite on hover board, drugs, punisher,shadow field and a few more smaller goodys run into a marine unit. it is beautiful to see an entire unit marines fall flat on their face with nothing in return and to see the lord then follow that up by plowing into another unit without any trouble.

anyway they are not nearly as weak as you think (if you have ever played a DE army it was probably played poorly) But yes a codex update would be awesome :smallbiggrin:

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 06:03 PM

Oh what a fool you are. I will agree DE are a fickle army and more often then not they are played poorly (mostly by the younger crowd) But DE are one of the more powerful races. If you look at their W/L ratio in torny play they are well above most. They just aren't played as often and thus not seen as often winning.

DE have a strong base unit warriors with a raider can move within CC first or second turn (first with small board or poor deployment on your opponents side) they pack str 4 ap 5 assault 4 weapons and have a BS 4 (so they are going to hit and wound your guys) then they can charge and hold their own against any non-powerarmored foe and even marines will lose a few to a warrior unit. Then the raider itself has one of the best guns in the game on it (ok thats my opinion due to the fact that you never need better then a 4+) or you can upgrade to a unit shredder i.e. disintegrator. a must on a raider are slave snares as they can easily reak havoc and make that raider an actual target as apposed to a nuisance. And that unit cost a lot less then any marine unit will.

Then you take into acount strong units like

wyches. They easily cut through power armored foes and as above are in combat 1st turn if not then 2nd.

Incubi. Pricey but coupled with an already strong lord this is nothing I know of that can actually stand in outright combat with these guys.

Grotesques. highly underrated if you ask me have a unit of these and hide Hamuncli in them and you have yourslef a giant PIA

The biggest reason DE are a strong army is that they shut down 1/2 of an armies normal game plan (shooting) without loosing to much in return. And against armies like Tau that is their only plan and they get boned. Armies like SM will try to fight back but due to lower maneuverability and outright outclassing by better CC units they have a hard time of it.

if you doubt the power of DE then you have never seen a archon/archite on hover board, drugs, punisher,shadow field and a few more smaller goodys run into a marine unit. it is beautiful to see an entire unit marines fall flat on their face with nothing in return and to see the lord then follow that up by plowing into another unit without any trouble.

anyway they are not nearly as weak as you think (if you have ever played a DE army it was probably played poorly) But yes a codex update would be awesome :smallbiggrin:

I've seen a lot of dark eldar in games and I've never seen them win once. I'll admit it's possible that they're in the hands of unskilled players, or that it was even just bad luck, but my experiences and the experiences of many others tell me that they suck.

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 06:07 PM

well bladewing if we ever do any PBP I challenge everyone who thinks DE are a poor army to a game. (now that I have said that my poor luck will kick in and you all know what sort of army you need to counter :smalltongue: )

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 06:13 PM

Well, as one final thing, I'd like to point out that Dark Eldar got creamed on Medusa V and I've never seen them dominate a tournament. I'm not saying that you can't succeed with them, I'm just saying that it's harder to do well than with other races. Like we said earlier, it's not all about your army.

heretic

2007-07-18, 06:13 PM

I also feel it's necessary to not only discount your tactic but the numbers behind it.

The tactic works beautifully, and I'll discuss numbers below.

Let's be kind to the IG and say they manage to hit with 2 plasma guns and 1 terminator is wounded and fails his save.

Actually, Hardened Veterans hit an average of four times with three plasma guns. Plasma wounds on a 2+ against just about everything, so if the Guard are UNlucky, then they've killed off 3 GK Terminators (123 points) for the price of a 78 point unit.

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 06:17 PM

No Blade I know I can succeed with them :smalltongue: ok maybe not but my opinion is drawn from what I have seen from torny play as well as otehr DE players. But then again I guess I could be wrong. The big reason they look bad is most the other races are easier to play well.

anywho back to your debate about GKs :smallwink:

Edit:

Also I didn't follow Medusa V (do to the fact that was when I got back into the game) but I never once lost or had a close game in cityfight/city of death. DE rock the city and if I am not mistaken the reason they did "not do well" was because of the lack of players.

heretic

2007-07-18, 07:14 PM

Probably true.

Although the Tyranids did atrocious as well, and there buttloads of Tyranid players.

Grasilich

2007-07-18, 07:26 PM

Again ignorance, the conversation was about ordinance and the double scatter distance, not basic guns.

Ruh-oh! Someone hasn't been reading their codex!

"Guess range and Ordnance weapons fire as normal but double their scatter distance if the Grey Knights if the Grey Knight targets are outside the spotting range rolled." (pg. 8 DH Codex)

Shrouding only works at 3d6x3. The Basilisk shooting at you from across the board? Sure, it might work. The Demolisher at the front lines of the enemy? Not so much.

His point was that IG guns are so short-ranged that they rarely fail against shrouding, which is true, and entirely unrelated.

Lascannons will not fail against Grey Knight shroud unless you're a good 24" away, in which case you have other problems

If you aren't in melee yet with the terminators you're dead even without the IG drop squads (what are the chances they come in at the exact right time?)

For a guy that throws around the word 'ignorance' so much, you certainly don't know jack. 'Improved Comms' are the chances of them coming down at the exact right time. Those allow rerolls of any Reserve/Deep Strike scatter dice.

I actually find demons are my toughest opponents, as they get all the fancy things chaos get when they fight GK. GK are awesome against guard if you know how to manipulate melee and morale.

Or, more likely, if the Guard player has no idea what he's doing.

I also feel it's necessary to not only discount your tactic but the numbers behind it. Let's be kind to the IG and say they manage to hit with 2 plasma guns and 1 terminator is wounded and fails his save. That's 41 pts gone. Next round they're in melee and by your numbers the IG loses 78 points. That's a net win for Grey Knights.

As the guy below pointed out, Vets are BS 4 and are not going to miss that much unless the dice fudge them out. And only one wounds? Yeah, okay, I think you're reaching there. And geez, there won't be just three shots. They'll be 6. Plasma Guns are rapid fire weapons.

Gee, how many times have you played with Grey Knights, I wonder, seeing as you clearly play another race? As I said before, demons are some of my hardest opponents.

Wrong again. I usually play a Marine army with a Grey Knight ally contingent, but I have done pure GK games many times before. I know what GKs can do and what they can't do. And one of the things they can't do is square off against Imperial Guard and hope to be anything other than a waste of points.

I think Games Workshop knows a little bit more about balance than you do, and they wouldn't make an army that's only good against one enemy.

I don't. I've never seen an Ork army that was good at anything but sucking hard. And on the flip side, look at bull**** chapters like Blood Angels or half the damn Chaos Codex. GWS can't balance to save its life.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 07:34 PM

Medusa V was based on win-loss ratios, not actual number of wins, unless all of my information has been misleading. I actually seem to recall that the Dark Eldar were winning early on, but got overtaken as time went on. Perhaps a lot of unskilled people simply joined as DE, who knows.

I don't. I've never seen an Ork army that was good at anything but sucking hard. And on the flip side, look at bull**** chapters like Blood Angels or half the damn Chaos Codex. GWS can't balance to save its life.

I plan to change that someday, if only through virtue of my ability roll amazingly well. :smallamused:

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 07:44 PM

Grasilich

2007-07-18, 08:03 PM

actually speed freaks (yes I realize they are going out as well why must I have all the old armies :smallfurious: ) is one of the strongest armies and is extreamly good at shooting due to the number of twin linked guns being shot.

Heh, the first game I ever had against Orks was against Speed Freaks. Their damn truks cluttered up the board to no end and it was actually a pretty close game, but I ended up winning narrowly (I was Marines with Grey Knights). That's probably about as good as Orks get, but I wouldn't say that it's one of the best armies.

Standard Orks are a bit of a joke though. I once thought about playing Ferals, just so I could have my Madboyz start killing each other (best rule ever) in the middle of the game, but I decided against it.

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 08:20 PM

actualy I don't know how strong it actually is (I played a bad DE army way back when) but feral with 3 massive squigoths is truly a giant pain in the ass.

DoomsdayBadger

2007-07-18, 08:22 PM

Actually my first game as GK was against an IG force. It was a relatively small game (1k) and I went 4 turns without losing a single GK. I outshot the guy with psycannons.

In retrospect, he wasn't very good, and I should have gotten completely smeared.

However, the shrouding protected my guys for quite a while.

Siric

2007-07-18, 08:36 PM

Although the Tyranids did atrocious as well, and there buttloads of Tyranid players. That's because the only strategy 'Nid Players use is "KEKEKE Zerg Rush!" ... I'm still under the believe that most 'Nid Players don't know how the rules of the game.

I once thought about playing Ferals, just so I could have my Madboyz start killing each other (best rule ever) in the middle of the game, but I decided against it. Fear teh Wyrdboyz. They can be a pain if the player uses them properly.

Grasilich

2007-07-18, 08:52 PM

Fear teh Wyrdboyz. They can be a pain if the player uses them properly.

Those guys seemed fun too. Especially his "GORK'LL GET 'EM!" power. The idea of a giant green fist materializing from nowhere and then punching out a Marine is pretty damn funny.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 08:57 PM

Am I the only person who is really sad that, for some psychotic reason, Genestealers can no longer infiltrate? I really miss those camouflaged guys, running around in their trees.

DoomsdayBadger

2007-07-18, 09:10 PM

What I miss is veteran skills.

The new chaos codex is going to be devoid of them, and until the current SM codex is fixed regular marines will have access to vet. skills that chaos no longer gets.

Why is this so horribly wrong? Because the veteran skills were created FOR the chaos codex to represent the long running campaigns that chaos marines go on.

But oh well, GW is streamlining the game into a less disorganized smattering of specialty lists. Enjoy the feral orkz while you can!

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 09:13 PM

Honestly I feel that both should have access to lots of Veteran Skills. Space Marines (Chaos or Standard) ARE supposed to be an elite force after all, but they're really not that expensive. Hell, it's not that unusual to see a Space Marine army outnumber their foe.

Grasilich

2007-07-18, 09:21 PM

Everything I've heard about the new Chaos Codex has been awful. The current Chaos Codex is unbalanced and overpowering, but the sheer number of options and variants it gives you makes it the best codex on the shelf right now. Now it seems like they're stripping a lot of that away and dumbing everything down. No vet skills... no special rules for individual legions... Generic Greater/Lesser Daemons... more emphasis on Special Characters... Lame, lame and lame.

Honestly I feel that both should have access to lots of Veteran Skills. Space Marines (Chaos or Standard) ARE supposed to be an elite force after all, but they're really not that expensive.

Well, not all Loyalist Marines are really veterans in the way that Chaos Marines are. But yeah, it was like that before, except Loyalists had to use Traits to get specific skills. So a Loyalist Chapter's Marines would be specifically trained as a whole to learn how to infiltrate, while a Chaos Legion that does can be assumed to have guys in their ranks that have been fighting so long that they just know how to do that.

Though with this new Chaos codex, not anymore, since there's no more customization of that sort available.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-18, 09:25 PM

Taking away Chaos' options takes away the very heart and soul of Chaos. They are supposed to be VERY different options. Though, I do kind of wish they had released separate, more detailed codices for legions like the Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors, to flesh them out more and go into more details on special rules and stuff. It was a bit cramped in there before.

Siric

2007-07-18, 11:07 PM

Those guys seemed fun too. Especially his "GORK'LL GET 'EM!" power. The idea of a giant green fist materializing from nowhere and then punching out a Marine is pretty damn funny.

Several Marines. It's a Large Blast Marker if I remember correctly. I'll have my Shas'O deepstrike so I can kill the Wyrdboy. Str 8 too... I think >_<

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 11:11 PM

I never did like the fact that wyrdboyz were feral only. I realy wanted to strap one to the front of a bike for my speedfreaks. Its uber mobile ordinance. But then again I have problems with the lack of dreadnaughts in speedfreaks after all you know an ork would so weld traks to a naught and let her spead around the battle field :smallwink:

DoomsdayBadger

2007-07-18, 11:13 PM

Well they did add one aspect of diversity.
And you can still get veteran skills, it just is less open to troops.
Also now I can run whatever kind of marinesi n my army, finally all those thousand sons I bought can be put to use.
(I wanted them as elites in my nurgle army, rivalries between the gods ruined my evil plan of the durable marine army)

The difference between "cult" marines who belong to a specific legion and "marked" marines who have a patron god (one marine per squad carries an icon which is bought to mark the whole squad. Finally capitalizing on the 'horde' esque disorganization of Chaos marine squads)

Cult marines (who all now count as troops regardless of Chaos HQ) are troops who are seriously pumped up. For Example:

A Nuglesk Death Guard Plague Marine has +1 toughness, Blight Grenades, -1 Iniative, and Feel No pain (which should have been a nurgle thing in the first place). They're more expensive than a marked marine but have more benefits.

A Khornate Berserker of the World Eaters has weapon skill 5, +1 attack and Furious Charge (no more chainaxes.)

A Unit of Tzeentchian Thousand Sons comes with a sorceror with a force weapons (jeepers batman!) and the rest of the squad are armed with AP 3 bolters. They move as slow and purposeful and the sorceror may select 2 (!) powers They all have a +4 invulnerable

Marked marines are marines with a cheaper cost but only a slight increase to statlines. For Example:
A Nurgle marked marine has +1 toughness
A khorne marked marine has +1 attack
A Tzeentch marked marine has +1 to existing invulnerable save, or a +5 if they have none

What this means is more diversity among the army in terms of marines. You can now (supposedly) make toughness 6 nurgle bikers.

What it also does, is it takes away the benefits for having a legion based army. I used to trun a straight Mechanized Deathguard army. But now I can (and will have to) expand my army.

But this hurts Iron warriors with Basilisks, and it hurts alpha legion with all those customized cultists.

Demons are also now all generic, all the greater demons have the same statlines and all the other demons have rules as "Lesser Demons."

DoomsdayBadger

2007-07-18, 11:18 PM

Several Marines. It's a Large Blast Marker if I remember correctly. I'll have my Shas'O deepstrike so I can kill the Wyrdboy. Str 8 too... I think >_<

It's a blast template, which I'm fairly sure equates maybe two marines tops. The problem is you get one weirdboy in an army, meaning you need to make that shot count as you have no heavy weapons in the feral ork list.

It also says "a fist or giant foot," I prefer the monty python esque ork foot crushing a rhino or a wraithlord.

If you got more than one weirdboy in the army feral orkz would be a viable list.

Oh well.

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 11:29 PM

It's a blast template, which I'm fairly sure equates maybe two marines tops. The problem is you get one weirdboy in an army, meaning you need to make that shot count as you have no heavy weapons in the feral ork list.

It also says "a fist or giant foot," I prefer the monty python esque ork foot crushing a rhino or a wraithlord.

If you got more than one weirdboy in the army feral orkz would be a viable list.

Oh well.

just looked it up indeed a blast template so its a plasma cannon with no AP and is assault :smallwink:

And what do you mean no heavy weapons? Have you looked at a squigoth all feral armys should have 3 each as massive with 3 kannons (always will hit due to no need for a to hit role) thats only 180x3 = 540 points for 18 toughness 7 wounds with 4+ armor save. And shooting on the move is nice. plus when that thing assaults it will stomp through most things (though you need to make sure you run grots in front of them to keep them from being bogged down in large units)

That is simple feral ork tactics (god now I want to collect them again stupid me)

Grasilich

2007-07-18, 11:40 PM

The other problem with Wyrdboyz is they're leadership 8, so Psychic Hood will make their powers fizzle more often than not. Psychic Hood really limits what Psyker-types can do. I wonder if they'll ever tone it down.

Interesting info Doomsday, I hadn't heard that they'd made such a huge difference between Marked vs. Dedicated troops. Still, that's a hell of a lot less customization then Chaos had before. I think my main beef is this silly new 'Daemons of the Chaos God Generic' deal that they've got going. Fleshhounds, Horrors, Bloodletters and Daemonettes all gone... All of the Greater Daemons gone... Weak.

DoomsdayBadger

2007-07-18, 11:44 PM

just looked it up indeed a blast template so its a plasma cannon with no AP and is assault :smallwink:

And what do you mean no heavy weapons? Have you looked at a squigoth all feral armys should have 3 each as massive with 3 kannons (always will hit due to no need for a to hit role) thats only 180x3 = 540 points for 18 toughness 7 wounds with 4+ armor save. And shooting on the move is nice. plus when that thing assaults it will stomp through most things (though you need to make sure you run grots in front of them to keep them from being bogged down in large units)

That is simple feral ork tactics (god now I want to collect them again stupid me)

Ahhh but therin lies the problem, a squiggoth has no model other than forge world. And if you run even one it poses a problem. Most of the people at the Games Workshop that I frequent run 1-2 devastator esque sqads. The Squig becomes a fire magnet which is good, on the basis that your troops will be spared a barrage of fire, but bad in the sense that your only heavy support (other than the weirdboy) just got pounded.

EDIT: I totally forgot, the new Codex is coming out after Chaos. SO don't start building that army until it comes out. New Models and maybe the feral list won't be an option anymore?

Most of the chapter approved kind of stuff is gone.

DoomsdayBadger

2007-07-18, 11:48 PM

Interesting info Doomsday, I hadn't heard that they'd made such a huge difference between Marked vs. Dedicated troops. Still, that's a hell of a lot less customization then Chaos had before. I think my main beef is this silly new 'Daemons of the Chaos God Generic' deal that they've got going. Fleshhounds, Horrors, Bloodletters and Daemonettes all gone... All of the Greater Daemons gone... Weak.

Yeah, I feel you pain entirely. My pure deathguard army ran 2 squads of 7 plage bearers. Now they're worthless because they took the demon's movement away when they arrive.

Yep, stationary with the exception of an assault movement. Which cuts my demons from a 12 inch move/assault.

But on the plus side, my great unclean one might finally get used for something other than "Hey I sell parts of my army, you wanna buy a Greater Demon of Nurgle?"

Doomsday Badger, Commission painter and Seller of useless models in his army :smallwink:

Also, no Cult Terminators.

A big difference I forgot, no fearlessness.

Totally weak.

So let's share a drink to the loss of the demons. I'll miss you my laddies, your finest moment was taking out a black templar biker squad. (5 on 7, my boys took them out)

crazedloon

2007-07-18, 11:58 PM

Ahhh but therin lies the problem, a squiggoth has no model other than forge world. And if you run even one it poses a problem. Most of the people at the Games Workshop that I frequent run 1-2 devastator esque sqads. The Squig becomes a fire magnet which is good, on the basis that your troops will be spared a barrage of fire, but bad in the sense that your only heavy support (other than the weirdboy) just got pounded.

actualy my orks are on hold until the new codex (I was making speed freaks :smallwink: )

But the squigoth is so iconic now due to dawn of war I can't see it being dropped (though maybe a boost in power and dropped to a 1 per list and more for feral)

Anyway trust me they can be a fire magnet all they want they can take the beating. when you think about it you need 2+ dev squads to be sure of dropping a goth in 1 turn. if you dont do that you will have 9 str 5 shots on that dev squad the next turn they will be mush. I speak from experience. At Games day years ago I fought against 3 with my dark lances (back in the day I had a bad list so I had 4 on foot and 4ish on raiders) and I dropped only 1 goth the entire game.

actually no model is nice-ish as long as you dont mind looks you can be cheap this way. because there is no official model they will alow a home made model for it. the guy I played used plastic dinos (with added platforms and the like) as his goths though he did buy 1 forge world one while he was there lucky son of a gun.

DoomsdayBadger

2007-07-19, 12:08 AM

Ahh but the low ballistic skill makes it not the most deadly shooter out there. I only see it getting a max of like 9-12 shots? I have no ork codex on hand so I can't determine strength, number of shots, ap or anything bur I'm going under the assumption it isn't high.

Speed Freakz are a solid army. My first tourney game ever was against an speed freak list. And I butchered him, It was before my list became mechanized, and it ran two dreadnaughts... between those and the plague bearers dah boyz didn't have a chance.

Then I lost spectacullarly to a cheese Sisters of Battle list (gunline and TWO excorsists!) and an infiltrating IG list.

It wasn't the best tourney I've been to by far.

Grasilich

2007-07-19, 12:11 AM

Even though the 'no movement when you summon daemons' rule is kinda sad, I can see why they did it. Summoning some Furies next to a shooty army and having it move 18" in the same round made for sad Tau and Guardsmen.

I think Forgeworld tried to make up for the suckitude of the standard Great Unclean One when they thought this guy (http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/23/411997/guo.pdf) up. Though really, anything with a model that looks like this (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/greatunclean.htm) would have to be that strong.

Do Chosen at least have as many options as they once did at least? It would suck if they made Chosen into glorified vet Space Marines. I remember reading also that they made it so Possessed Marines now have a random daemon upgrade, rather than paid-for upgrades. That sucks so hard. I hate randomized upgrades/powers. Especially when rolling a 1 gives you nothing.

crazedloon

2007-07-19, 12:15 AM

nah kannons always hit if you use the blast template you just roll 1d6 and a scatter die (if the template is placed in the middle of the unit you will rip it apart and it does cause pinning)

That is the sexiest great unclean one I have ever seen ok maybe sexy isn't the proper word ............ :smallwink:

DoomsdayBadger

2007-07-19, 12:19 AM

Well everythign I've read has been rumor, so for all I know I could be wrong.

I hope I am. But I do hear rumors of a demon only codex, which may bring back the legions and will definantly bring back specific demons.

I think the main point of the new codex was to go back to the renegades and warbands concept of chaos. Note how the old codex was called "Chaos Space Marines," well now the lists should be more about the marines than anything else.

Also it may be a divide similar to the fantasy one. Maybe the demon codex will be lost and the damned esque?

And you can still have chosen in term armor, but you can no longer make them aspiring champions, so I think in a way they'll be closer to veterans than the iconic troops they once were.

Oh well, 40k is an evolving game, what's the use complaining if nothing changes?

Also HQ's are alot lamer

And Defilers can no longer have indirect fire, but have a strength increase and can fleet.

Vindicators can be taken by any list now. Hooray.
(Sarcasm)

Krytha

2007-07-19, 12:38 AM

DoomsdayBadger

2007-07-19, 01:36 AM

Well even so, greater demons IMO aren't worth it, you lose an aspiring champion when they manifest and in doing so you lose any wargear.

Although you do get the demons str on the aspiring champion you'd still have to give him a power weapon to ignore saves, and ontop of that demonic chains. Blah, so many wasted points.

Grasilich

2007-07-19, 01:39 AM

Huh... I think they overdid it on that Great Unclean one. But I guess if you have that much real estate you just have to keep on thinking of gross things to put in, even if it starts to border on silly.

To be fair, most of the gigantic 'costs over two hundred dollars' Forgeworld models are sorta like that. Baneblade, THawk, Titans, etc. Because if you pay that much for a single model, don't you just sorta deserve to win? :P

Though yeah, even by Forgeworld standards that guy is completely bogus. It could take out the bloody Nightbringer in one round of close combat. Doesn't get much better than that.

Krytha

2007-07-19, 02:12 AM

What I meant to say is - I liked their icky tyranid models much better.

Also, who can pass up the cool factor of greater daemons?

DoomsdayBadger

2007-07-19, 02:17 AM

What I meant to say is - I liked their icky tyranid models much better.

Also, who can pass up the cool factor of greater daemons?

Me!

They're a point sink and an HQ slot.

Grasilich

2007-07-19, 02:32 AM

Me!

They're a point sink and an HQ slot.

I personally prefer Marine armies myself. I don't even much like the Daemon Prince. One thing I've been meaning to try is an Alpha Legion army against a shooty army with an infiltrated Raptor squad whose Aspiring Champion has got a Bloodthirster in him. That would be fun. For me. Not so much the other guy.

TheOtherMC

2007-07-19, 07:26 AM

Could someone explain the exact merits of AP1 weapons to me? (Pretty much just the railgun) My friend is arguing that it would negate smoke.

Blayze

2007-07-19, 08:30 AM

Was looking at my Daemonhunters Codex last night, and I seem to have hit upon something. I think it's legal and will work, but I can't be too sure. Something feels off, but I'm not sure what it is. Tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree, please.

Point limit: 2000.
Armies used: Daemonhunters, Sisters Of Battle, Imperial Guard.

What I'm going for, here, is (Effectively) four different armies, together in one. Which means, one Grey Knight Hero (A Brother-Captain will suffice, I think) to allow me to pick from the Grey Knight list, and an Inquisitor from the Elites section to allow me to get at the other half of the list.

Then, dipping into the ranks of the Inducted Imperial Guard through the use of the "By the authority of the immortal Emperor of Mankind..." rule, and 500 points of allies in the form of some Sisters Of Battle (Not too sure how the rules for Allies work. Do I need to take the one HQ and two Troops choices for the Sisters as well as the Daemonhunters?)

So what I'm asking is, am I on the right track with this, or have I forgotten some very important yet little-mentioned detail that will otherwise scupper my plans?

Murongo

2007-07-19, 08:52 AM

Ruh-oh! Someone hasn't been reading their codex!

"Guess range and Ordnance weapons fire as normal but double their scatter distance if the Grey Knights if the Grey Knight targets are outside the spotting range rolled." (pg. 8 DH Codex)

Shrouding only works at 3d6x3. The Basilisk shooting at you from across the board? Sure, it might work. The Demolisher at the front lines of the enemy? Not so much.

Lascannons will not fail against Grey Knight shroud unless you're a good 24" away, in which case you have other problems

For a guy that throws around the word 'ignorance' so much, you certainly don't know jack. 'Improved Comms' are the chances of them coming down at the exact right time. Those allow rerolls of any Reserve/Deep Strike scatter dice.

Or, more likely, if the Guard player has no idea what he's doing.

As the guy below pointed out, Vets are BS 4 and are not going to miss that much unless the dice fudge them out. And only one wounds? Yeah, okay, I think you're reaching there. And geez, there won't be just three shots. They'll be 6. Plasma Guns are rapid fire weapons.

Wrong again. I usually play a Marine army with a Grey Knight ally contingent, but I have done pure GK games many times before. I know what GKs can do and what they can't do. And one of the things they can't do is square off against Imperial Guard and hope to be anything other than a waste of points.

I don't. I've never seen an Ork army that was good at anything but sucking hard. And on the flip side, look at bull**** chapters like Blood Angels or half the damn Chaos Codex. GWS can't balance to save its life.

Wrong again. The situation in question were "basilisks nested on the other side of the table pounding you" which makes the chances of being outside shrouding very high.

I use improved comms all the time, I am aware of their purpose and how useful they are. However, they aren't so exact that you can wait for your enemy to deep strike a unit, and then instantaneously deep strike your own. Rolling an extra dice does not guarantee the exact timing you want.

I didn't say only one of the shots wounds I said wounds and isn't blocked by their invulnerable save. Again you failed to read carefully.

It's not my fault you don't know how to use your GK.

Murongo

2007-07-19, 09:09 AM

Here's a more fun discussion than "does x army suck?", does anyone have any infamous units in their army? Like ones that you and your friends all named because of particularly extreme units?

I have a sarge in a chimera squad (which in my army are suicide squads, these guys usually take 100% casualties). But anyway this sarge and his squad are being used to tie up a hive tyrant and retinue so that the 'nids can't get a charge on the incoming terminator squad. The sarge not only lives in a round of melee with a tyrant, he scores a wound on it! The next round the terminators arrive and tear the 'nids apart.

The sarge goes on to live the entire game, he and 1 other man successfully killing a biovore and surviving a run-in with a squad of genestealers (the other guy died).

His name is, of course, "Sarge" and he now has a bolter across his back (which, of course, he doesn't actually have game-wise), a skull helmet made of a 'nid head and like 5 knives strapped to various parts of his body. My friends make it a game to "kill sarge" to the point where my tau buddy was once losing so bad that he decided to use his solid rail gun shot to target him in a squad and blow him away. Naturally I informed my friend after the win that sarge was indeed okay, the blow had only knocked his helmet off and rendered him unconscious, and he woke up in med bay later, praise the emperor!

My friend also has the "hero predator" which is a tank that took out a monolith as the first act of the battle, duked it out with a land raider and won, killed my brother-captain hero, thus securing a stalemate (grr) and just generally does amazing in every game (he plays dark angels).

Attilargh

2007-07-19, 09:42 AM

Could someone explain the exact merits of AP1 weapons to me? (Pretty much just the railgun) My friend is arguing that it would negate smoke.
The weapon inflicts penetrating hits on armour penetration rolls that would normally cause a glance. If I recall correctly, smoke converts penetrating hits into glances, so having a Big Gun O' Doom wouldn't help squat. Long time since I've read the book, though.

TheOtherMC

2007-07-19, 10:17 AM

slappy

2007-07-19, 10:26 AM

Man I got into Warhammer 40k for a little back in 91 man I feel real old now. Anyways I have been reading though the post but way to much to take in all at once. Is there a place that breaks down the new stuff or is it just a matter of going to GW website and visiting gaming stores? Any help is appreciated.

Saithis Bladewing

2007-07-19, 10:37 AM

The weapon inflicts penetrating hits on armour penetration rolls that would normally cause a glance. If I recall correctly, smoke converts penetrating hits into glances, so having a Big Gun O' Doom wouldn't help squat. Long time since I've read the book, though.

Doesn't hurt though. The advantage of the Railgun, for example, isn't the AP1 so much as the fact that it's S10 over 72" with no scattering. And if it's a Hammerhead, you get to use a Submunition instead, and if it's a Broadside, you get to reroll misses. So yeah, sometimes big guns are worth it.

TheOtherMC

2007-07-19, 10:42 AM

So yeah, sometimes big guns are worth it.

No, just Tau :smallbiggrin:

*Doesnt hurt when you're playing Farsight either...*

Blayze

2007-07-19, 12:19 PM

does anyone have any infamous units in their army?

Oh, now THIS is indeed an awesome subject. Although it's less the result of an 'infamous' unit/model, as it is the result of pathetic dice rolling on my part, based on which Aspect I use.

Fire Dragons, I'm okay with. Dark Reapers, slightly less so. Dire Avengers, well... They're more cannon fodder than anything, it would seem. Banshees, never used. Shining Spears, haven't seen any at all, ever. Now... Warp Spiders.

Bloody Warp Spiders. Can't kill anything when I use them, it seems. Always end up killing themselves with their Assault Phase jump. Although, it would seem that my 'curse' extends beyond mere Aspect Warriors, and spells doom for Autarchs unlucky enough to don their own Jump Generator.

I think that's the reason why there's no Warp Spider Phoenix Lord. My bad luck with them caused 'a disturbance in the Warp, altering space, time and reality itself, eventually resulting in the unfortunate Warp Spider Phoenix Lord being removed from existence."

Hmm... I just had an idea. Eldrad's supposedly still alive in the Warp. Phoenix Lords disappear for centuries at a time, reappearing when they're needed. The Eldar version of the "final battle" that will destroy everything says that all of the Phoenix Lords will meet their deaths there (Er... won't EVERYTHING meet its death there?).

Does that include any potential Phoenix Lords for the Warp Spiders and the Shining Spears? Does that mean the Dark Father?

And here's to my continuing hope for a fully-fleshed out Harlequin force. Sure, that hope's nearly dead, cause of GW's "LOL at Codex Eldar players" thing with trying to streamline all the armies (Maybe now we'll get Codex: Not Marines!), apparently.

TheOtherMC

2007-07-19, 12:49 PM

anybody have any infamous units in their army?

Well while making my newest box of fire warriors I had one come out....well.....kinda fruity looking...in fact he was frolicking with a grenade. I let my friend's gf paint it and she gave it a pokeball and a little pride rainbow and everything. Ultimatly we thought he shouldnt be trusted with a gun so now my shas'ui is holding 2 pulse rifles. ANYWAY. Its my devilfish unit and it almost always gets demolished to the last man (We've named him "Brick Tamland for the obvious Anchorman/ Steve Carell reference.) and this last tau with no visible rifle, frolicking around with grenades held high, has managed to beat chaos raptors, a venerable dreadnaught and a black templar assault marine in close combat long enough to retreat off the table. Now everygame he's my friend's priority target. BRICK, OH SWEET BRICK!

Murongo

2007-07-19, 02:51 PM

Well while making my newest box of fire warriors I had one come out....well.....kinda fruity looking...in fact he was frolicking with a grenade. I let my friend's gf paint it and she gave it a pokeball and a little pride rainbow and everything. Ultimatly we thought he shouldnt be trusted with a gun so now my shas'ui is holding 2 pulse rifles. ANYWAY. Its my devilfish unit and it almost always gets demolished to the last man (We've named him "Brick Tamland for the obvious Anchorman/ Steve Carell reference.) and this last tau with no visible rifle, frolicking around with grenades held high, has managed to beat chaos raptors, a venerable dreadnaught and a black templar assault marine in close combat long enough to retreat off the table. Now everygame he's my friend's priority target. BRICK, OH SWEET BRICK!

Brick, where'd you get a hand grenade?

Wehrkind

2007-07-19, 03:00 PM

My only notable unit so far is my canoness. I am thinking of naming her "Prom Date." No matter how I kit her out, she either does absolutely nothing by failing to hit with her inferno pistol (BS 5 my arse) or by virtue of being splattered across a wall/field by some sort of hideous monster. I don't know what it is, but the girl just gets torn up at every opportunity, usually as a result of my rolling 3-5 1's within 45 seconds.

My roommate though, his chaos boys have character. There is firstly Jamal, named after an inspirational poster on 4chan involving some African terrorists posing for a camera with a rocket launcher to a hostage's head with the line "Will someone take that rocket launcher away from Jamal before he kills us all?" My roommate see can NEVER roll hits/wounds with either las cannons or rocket launchers. For two games Jamal the marine missed 10 shots, 6 consecutive, and those 2 hits he made failed to wound a sister. The two hits were frag; he gave up and started using krak, to no avail. I told him I was going to model a spikey boy holding his rocket launcher backwards with a head rag mask in honor of him.
His berserkers unit, well, they are pretty low key. Laxidaisical, you might say. They rolled blood lust 3 times in 6 games, something like 27 odd turns. We have decided to model some with the running legs, only laying down, lounging against a rock with a bottle of Corona.
Then we have his 165 pt demon prince, Captain Insano. He is the one who usually splatters the canoness across the cliffs. Always makes his blood thirst roll (he became uglier after getting some things swapped for flight) and just has a nasty tendancy to mock my attempts to properly place a multitude of Divine Guidance bolter rounds into him.

Actually, he is part of the reason I am considering getting some Grey Knight termies for my army, just for that melee, anti-demon punch.

DoomsdayBadger

2007-07-19, 04:15 PM

I personally prefer Marine armies myself. I don't even much like the Daemon Prince. One thing I've been meaning to try is an Alpha Legion army against a shooty army with an infiltrated Raptor squad whose Aspiring Champion has got a Bloodthirster in him. That would be fun. For me. Not so much the other guy.

One of my dear friends runs a Word Bearers army with an infiltrating raptor squad to kill heavy weapon squads. It's also an icon bearing unit, so it allows him to summon his demonns right against the enemy lines.

I'll suggest the bloodthirster thing to him, as it would be fluffy and viable.

TheOtherMC

2007-07-19, 05:03 PM

Maybe you guys could help me. I dont think its worth buying a rulebook for one rule but can anyone tell me what an "obscured target" is? Im trying to figure out what the new Tau disruption pod does....

crazedloon

2007-07-19, 05:46 PM

Buy a rule book it serves as a valuable blunt object for use against stupid players. :smallbiggrin:

if a penetrating hit is scored on a roll of 4+ it is glancing :smallwink:

heretic

2007-07-19, 06:26 PM

Korias

2007-07-19, 06:30 PM

Does anybody know of a Good Kill Team Army? And in particular, what models?

Im thinking Tau StealthSuits, or Dark Angels Veterans. That, or grabbing some Eldar.

heretic

2007-07-19, 06:46 PM

Kill Team is soooooooo broken.

Break a Mutable Law. Okay, they get an extra Brute squad. It could be three Marines or... three Guardsmen.

It heavily favors expensive armys on the defensive side.

Korias

2007-07-19, 06:48 PM

I know, but if your guardsmen you get 10 squads. And I dont have much time to play, so Kill team is good for 15 Minute skirmishes.

crazedloon

2007-07-19, 06:52 PM

good kill team = DE Incubi/wyches/warriors with splinter cannons = full of win. cannons will kill any none power armored brute squad. incubi/wyches will rip everything else apart :smallbiggrin:

heretic

2007-07-19, 07:01 PM

I know, but if your guardsmen you get 10 squads. And I dont have much time to play, so Kill team is good for 15 Minute skirmishes.

Exactly. Ten plus one per Law broken.

Marines are three (I think) plus one per law broken.

It is strategically much better to break laws against swarm armies than against Marines or Necrons.

Korias

2007-07-19, 07:19 PM

DE Can be deadly. They have no middle ground: Its a massacre on either side.

How many models are we talking about with that DE Group?

Grasilich

2007-07-19, 07:20 PM

Wrong again. The situation in question were "basilisks nested on the other side of the table pounding you" which makes the chances of being outside shrouding very high.

And if you're that far away, what are you going to do to fight that Basilisk? Shoot it with your Psycannon? Oh noes.

I use improved comms all the time, I am aware of their purpose and how useful they are. However, they aren't so exact that you can wait for your enemy to deep strike a unit, and then instantaneously deep strike your own. Rolling an extra dice does not guarantee the exact timing you want.

You've so-very-obviously never faced a Guard army with 3 squads of deep striking Vets, let alone an army like the Elysian Drop Troops. I don't even know why I'm still talking to you.

I didn't say only one of the shots wounds I said wounds and isn't blocked by their invulnerable save. Again you failed to read carefully.

6 shots of a Plasma Gun from a BS4 Vet Squad vs. a squad of Grey Knight Terminators does NOT equal only one wound unless he rolls really badly or you manage to roll really good. It's going to mean a good 4 Terminators dead. That was and still is my point.

It's not my fault you don't know how to use your GK.

And it's not my fault you've never faced a competent Guard player before.

Korias

2007-07-19, 07:50 PM

Guard are a great army, but so many models... Its like Nids and their swarms. Guard makes you want to think "Theres no way I can take them all out..."

And because of the price, nobody plays IG where I live. One person collects them, and she paints them pink. Pink Vostroyans, to be exact.

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-19, 08:22 PM

Wow...I would actually kinda laugh if someone had a guard army with 6 platoons of men that had their armor in red, orange, yellow, blue, violet, and green who called their army Rainbow 6.

Ya know...that might actually be a good team...you would have to at least model them with Vox casters even if you didn't use them so you could say "this is red leader..." as you move your troops...

If I ever make a Guard army...I will have to give every trooper a name...perhaps write it down on their base, a number for reference...could be interesting..

Korias

2007-07-19, 08:54 PM

And of Course, knock off the first one labled "Private Ryan" in Assault?:smallbiggrin:

Murongo

2007-07-19, 10:11 PM

And if you're that far away, what are you going to do to fight that Basilisk? Shoot it with your Psycannon? Oh noes.

You've so-very-obviously never faced a Guard army with 3 squads of deep striking Vets, let alone an army like the Elysian Drop Troops. I don't even know why I'm still talking to you.

6 shots of a Plasma Gun from a BS4 Vet Squad vs. a squad of Grey Knight Terminators does NOT equal only one wound unless he rolls really badly or you manage to roll really good. It's going to mean a good 4 Terminators dead. That was and still is my point.

And it's not my fault you've never faced a competent Guard player before.

I guess you missed my not-so-subtle cop-out for you to drop it. Allow me to do some quick math for you, it's not that hard to understand:

BS 4 means 2/3 hit. However, as they are plasma guns one of the "first shots" will most likely backfire on a 1 and will not allow the second shot to be fired. That means of the 6, 4 would hit but 1 is prevented from ever being fired (and possibly fries a guard). Which means 3 hit.

The problem in your math is not only that you failed to take into account the burn chance, you dropped it at the 3 hitting. Chances are between wounding and the terminator invuln save that all terminators have the GK is only losing 1.5 guys (an average of 60.5 pts) which is less than the IG squad (78 pts). The numbers are just against you.

You clearly just don't know what the basilisk debate was about so drop it. Suffice to say my debatee said "the GK will get pounded to death before they ever get to melee by my basilisk." To which I replied "most likely it's scattering double, meaning my GK are partially immune to that bombardment." I don't know how you got that I was trying to shoot the basilisk with psycannons or whatever it is you invented.

Kindly move on to other, more pleasant topics, like the rest of us.

Murongo

2007-07-19, 10:17 PM

Wait my math is off. Plasma backfire chance increases if you've already fired, meaning the second time is a 1 or 2 to fail to fire rather than just a 1. The average damage then becomes 1 terminator or 41 pts vs 78, even better than I thought. Score.

crazedloon

2007-07-19, 10:24 PM

DE Can be deadly. They have no middle ground: Its a massacre on either side.

How many models are we talking about with that DE Group?

Well a strong one in my opinion is

1 incubi 25pts
2 warriors w/splinter cannons 36pts (2 extra brute squads)
1 incubi master w/combat drugs and plasma grenades and hell mask 70pts
2 wych w/wych weapons 26pts (1 extra squad)
___________

159pts

all your opponents will have 1/2 weapon skill you have 7-8 power weapon attacks that hit on 3+ and wound on 4+ at worst and that is after you shoot 8 str 4 ap 5 shots that hit on 3+

all brute squads will be dead in 1 round of combat against these guys :smallbiggrin:

Korias

2007-07-19, 10:36 PM

Man... That sounds Deadly.

Now I know why we dont have many DE Players. Their so over powered.

6 Guys? Thats insane!

Are their any other good Army Combonations? I was thinking that Stealthsuits from Tau might be good, with the Fusion blasters literaly smiting the feild, and burst cannons mopping up the rest. That, or I was thinking trying on the Last Chancers, as I still have some guard left over from tau conversions.

Grasilich

2007-07-19, 11:30 PM

BS 4 means 2/3 hit. However, as they are plasma guns one of the "first shots" will most likely backfire on a 1 and will not allow the second shot to be fired. That means of the 6, 4 would hit but 1 is prevented from ever being fired (and possibly fries a guard). Which means 3 hit.

Man this one is just the icing on the cake. Getting hot does not stop you from taking your shots. Man, I would never lose to the Guard if that were the case.

Rulebook Pg. 30:

"It is possible for a model to hit with shots that also result in an overheat - the hits are resolved as normal even if the firer falls victim to his own weapon."

Multiple get hot shots have a higher risk of hurting the model firing, but having one of them burn doesn't stop the second shot from going at all.

Korias

2007-07-19, 11:32 PM

Man this one is just the icing on the cake. Getting hot does not stop you from taking your shots. Man, I would never lose to the Guard if that were the case.

Rulebook Pg. 30:

"It is possible for a model to hit with shots that also result in an overheat - the hits are resolved as normal even if the firer falls victim to his own weapon."

Multiple get hot shots have a higher risk of hurting the model firing, but having one of them burn doesn't stop the second shot from going at all.

You are using the newer editions, correct?

If so, you have to roll to take the armor save FIRST if the first shot overheats. Then you cant fire with that model again.

Guardsman A Double Taps with his Plasma Gun. He gets a 1 on his first roll. He takes an Armor save, and passes. He cannot shoot again.

Fuzzy_Juan

2007-07-20, 01:29 AM

hmm...standard 'tournament' Imperial Guard platoon...maxed for plasma galore

Platoon

lt. (Storm bolter, power weapon)
4x guardsmen (4 plasma rifles)

Squad 1 - (8 las gun, 1 missle Launcher, 1 plasma gunner)
Squad 2 - (8 las gun, 1 Las Cannon, 1 plasma gunner)

270 pts...

for the same cost, you can get 15 marines, 2 plasma and a missle and las cannon...

so...we get:

IG

2 StBlt @ 4+ to hit str4 ap5
6-12 plasma gun shots @4+ str 7 ap2
1 missle launcher @ 4+ (str 8 ap 3, or str 4 ap 6 blast)
1 Las Cannon @ 4+ str 9 ap2
16-32 Las Guns @ 4+ str 3 ap -

vs...

SM
11-22 Bolters @ 3+ to hit str4 ap5
2-4 plasma gun shots @3+ str 7 ap2
1 missle launcher @ 3+ (str 8 ap 3, or str 4 ap 6 blast)
1 Las Cannon @ 3+ str 9 ap2

----------------------------

In a straight up fire fight, the marines and Guard are kinda even, with numbers taking up some slack in terms of skill...in close combat, numbers again play a part as the near 2-1 advantage helps some...with terrain...SM don't really get much of a benefit except for cover from heavy weapons and plasma, and no benefit against the las guns...the guard are blessed by any cover cause then it gives them a save they otherwise would be denied...and it can protect them in close combat by allowing the strike first.

I wonder who typically wins encounters liek this...do the guard have what it takes to reduce threats before they slam into their lines normally, or do they fold...by the numbers it seems pretty even and depends more on cover, exact placement, and the luck of the dice.

TheOtherMC

2007-07-20, 10:47 AM

Buy a rule book it serves as a valuable blunt object for use against stupid players. :smallbiggrin:

if a penetrating hit is scored on a roll of 4+ it is glancing :smallwink:

Wait...so how's that work mechanically? DO I roll for the 4+ and THEN they roll damage or after?!

onasuma

2007-07-20, 11:32 AM

Ive just finished reading the new white dwarf, and i got a surprise. Codex: deamons is to be realesed near the start of next year. so wondering, what are peoples thorghts, opinions. etc.

wojonatior

2007-07-20, 12:16 PM

yay 40k my uncle gave me a blood angels army and my dad gave me a necron army plus my uncle gave me like a carbon fiber board he won at a competiton i cant find anybody to play with though:smallmad:

onasuma

2007-07-20, 12:50 PM

Try using vassal. An online program designed to simulate wargames.

Siric

2007-07-20, 01:21 PM

Wait...so how's that work mechanically? DO I roll for the 4+ and THEN they roll damage or after?!So, If you're an obscured target, and the Hit that hits you is a penetrating hit, then YOU roll a dice. If it's 4 or Over, then it's glancing and they roll on the glancing table. If it's 3 or under, then it's penetrating and they roll on the penetrating table.

That being said, do NOT get disruption pods. Tau are NOT IG. Tau vehicles are skimmers, which means, if they move more than six inches, you can ONLY get glancing shots on the vehicle. Get Decoy Launchers instead so you can reroll immobilized on the Glancing table. If skimmer becomes immobilized, they crash and die (Unless you're a Monolith, or you use the Tau Landing gear. But if you use the landing gear, then you aren't moving more than six inches, which is a nono.... Always move!). You should also get some Multi-Trackers. You NEED multi-trackers If you want to keep moving more than six inches.

yay 40k my uncle gave me a blood angels army and my dad gave me a necron army plus my uncle gave me like a carbon fiber board he won at a competiton i cant find anybody to play with though Try finding your nearest Games Workshop. Google Maps FTW

TheOtherMC

2007-07-20, 01:26 PM

So, If you're an obscured target, and the Hit that hits you is a penetrating hit, then YOU roll a dice. If it's 4 or Over, then it's glancing and they roll on the glancing table. If it's 3 or under, then it's penetrating and they roll on the penetrating table.

That being said, do NOT get disruption pods. Tau are NOT IG. Tau vehicles are skimmers, which means, if they move more than six inches, you can ONLY get glancing shots on the vehicle. Get Decoy Launchers instead so you can reroll immobilized on the Glancing table. If skimmer becomes immobilized, they crash and die (Unless you're a Monolith, or you use the Tau Landing gear. But if you use the landing gear, then you aren't moving more than six inches, which is a nono.... Always move!). You should also get some Multi-Trackers. You NEED multi-trackers If you want to keep moving more than six inches.

Thanks man, just wanted to know what the new disruption pods do. Kinda got nerfed in the transition to 4th edition huh?