Planescape Torment Discussion W/ SPOILERS

[DeathQuaker]

It was mentioned in the other Planescape: Torment thread that it would be nice to discuss some of the details of the game, particularly the endgame, but we didn't want to in the other thread since the person who started it hadn't played the game. Yes, while it's an old game, people are still apparently looking to pick it up for the first time (which is a big YAY in my book).

SO, what this thread is for is for people who've played the game and want to discuss it without worrying about spoiling anyone. Plots and characters can be discussed, and I think discussing game secrets and tactics would be fine as well. So, if you haven't finished the game, DO NOT READ ON. You don't WANT to be spoiled for this game, I swear to all the Powers; it'll totally ruin it for you.

So... spoilers...
starting...
NOW

One of the issues brought up was: "What do you think has happened to TNO and his followers since the end of the game? Is TNO doomed to fight in the Blood War in eternity? Where did the others go?"

Some thoughts... TNO I think was somehow responsible for significant contributions to the Blood War (it's referred to a lot in the game and I remember some hint he had some involvement). So I think he is doomed to be whereever he is in the Lower Planes (Gehenna?) at least for a LONG TIME.... however... a being with as many deeds as he has done, both good and bad, it makes me wonder if he can balance out his crime and eventually leave. Also, is he truly a petitioner? Some other being? A planar creature? A demi-power?

[Varen_Tai]

Oh, he's gonna be there for a looooong time.

Interestingly enough, someone did some NWN modules, two of them, that dealt with TNO's long term fate. You went to rescue him in the first, and at the end of the 2nd, several of his companions (Dak'kon for one, I think Annah and Grace, but unsure on the specifics) offered to take his place in the Blood Wars in order to release him.

One person commenting on this said that he would never allow someone else to take TNO's place - he deserved what he got, and placing an innocent in his stead solved nothing, only prolonged the torment that those around him suffered.

All of this was very interesting to me as I played TNO as LG as you could get, but after hearing about his past lives in-game, I'm not so sure I would release him that quick either. I mean, should he be punished for the sum total of all his lives, good and evil, or just the most recent one?

EDIT: A demi-power for sure. In 3E terms, super Epic. :)

[endoperez]

His mortality became a great Power, more like a personified Mortality of all humans, comparable in power to Death.

However, TNO could also raise his dead friends after he got to know he had once amassed the power needed to raise them. The main factor was time - he had had enough time to learn more than any mortal man could or should, even about very deadly things.

I'm not sure what he actually became.


I don't know what TNO exactly did in regards to The Blood War. One of the Sensates told that there was no bigger reason behind The Blood War than that Baatezu and Tanar'ri met - they didn't like each other, so they started fighting.
TNO might have signed a contract, or at least he fought in the wars once - but I still doubt the contract would bind him after all that happened. He was sent to fight for some crime that he did back in his original life. I don't think it was ever mentioned what it was.

As for how long he has to fight - there are Black Abishai in the Sigil. There are creatures of the Blood War in Sigil. Unless TNO is bound by something, he could just leave. Even if he was bound some way, it might be possible to free him (compare Blood War to the Pillar of Skulls). The Sensate telling about the Blood War mentioned something about the souls dying on the infernal planes becoming demons, but I didn't read it as carefully as I would now. TNO could die, but he is powerful enough to be very hard to actually kill.

The only things I know are that TNO must fight in the Blood War, and that some powerful force using fire called him to fight. The only things I have come up with are:
1) TNO has become a demon or a devil, or
2) TNO is bound by a devil's contract, impossible to break.



EDIT:
Varen Tai, he was sentenced for punishment because of something he did in his original life. The Good Incarnation mentioned that the weight of the sins of that first life were worse than those of all the others. I think he might even have said that they would have been bigger even if all the other lives were used for pure goodness.

[Tom_Violence]

My initial interpretation was that he'd be down there fighting for a very long time, possibly dying many deaths down there (did anyone notice how, at the end, he just grabs that weapon dives in recklessly?), but about that I'm not sure. The metaphysics of the Planes aren't my specialist subject, so I don't know what happens if one dies in the Blood War, but anyway...

On to the subject of balance, with respect to his past lives. A few issues arise. Firstly, to what extent are any of his past lives actually him? Secondly, given the nature of those past lives (some very good, some very bad, some very lawful, etc.) I think its fair to say that they pretty much all cancel each other out. Lastly, in response to a point raised by endoperez, is it possible that the initial life did something so bad that it can never be redeemed? I'm inclined to say no. That would take an act so evil, that its not just worse than all othes by degree, but is actually of a kind so despicable that it cannot be forgiven. I can think of no such act.

Varen_Tai raised the question of someone else taking his place. Regardless of whether or not this is 'legal' (I'm not sure exactly what it is that binds someone to fight in the Blood War), I dare it fits in very nicely with the concept of Torment and The Nameless One being likened to a lodestone with souls drawn to him for reasons that often even they aren't aware of, and suffering immensely for it. I can't think of a much better way of playing this out than having someone choose to be bound to serve in the Blood War for him for whatever reason (benevolence, duty, etc.). Not nice, but there it is. :)

His role in the Blood War itself during his past lives, or even maybe only his initial life I'm not sure of. It seems reasonable to assume that what exactly he did in his first life doesn't really exist objectively and was kept intentionally ambiguous (maybe because no one could really write something satisfying enough, or maybe just for the sake of discussions like this one ;) ). My best guess would be that he didn't start it (that just seems a touch too huge) but obviously did play some major role in the proceedings. Possibly a high-up that made some massive waves in the whole thing? Information from the Hall of Sensate's, and possibly in other parts of the Clerk's Ward, certainly seems to hint at him having some large commanding military role of some sort.

The abishai in Sigil - again, I'm not sure of the legal details, but could they not have 'done their time' and got out? Or mayhaps they're there as part of the Blood War, as recruiters or somesuch?

I'm assuming by the "some powerful force using fire called him to fight" statement that you're referring to the end cinematic in which he gets dragged down into a hole of fire. I always just assumed that the fire was just representative of the Planes on which the Blood War was fought, not actually a direct act by something. Maybe I'm not reading enough into it... who knows?

Lastly (phew), I'm not sure how one becomes a devil, but I dare say that's probably possible. What I am pretty sure about though is that a devil's contract can be broken. After all, isn't that how Grace escaped from her life of servitude?

And so ends my longest post on these boards thus far...

[Varen_Tai]

Oh that's right! I just remembered what he did that was so heinous!

By becoming immortal, every time he died, someone else died in his stead and became a shadow! So he has innumerable deaths on his soul, as per his choices from his first incarnation. When he spoke with his First Incarnation in the prison, that Incarnation had repented after a fashion, and was truly good. But he still had to pay the price for all those souls he was responsible for...

[Jothki]

Oh that's right! I just remembered what he did that was so heinous!

By becoming immortal, every time he died, someone else died in his stead and became a shadow! So he has innumerable deaths on his soul, as per his choices from his first incarnation. When he spoke with his First Incarnation in the prison, that Incarnation had repented after a fashion, and was truly good. But he still had to pay the price for all those souls he was responsible for...

I'd say that the First Incarnation was not truely good at all. Though he desired immortality to have time to repent, I seem to remember him sacrificing his comrades to reach Ravel, and I suspect that he decievied her about her beauty to get her to make him immortal (I wish that there was an option to come clean about that in the game, in addition to the option to continue stringing her along).

Although he desired to repent, his motive was selfish, and he was willing to continue to make others suffer in order to reach his goal. My conclusion is that he never deserved immortality in the first place, and that his true atonement could only come from accepting the deserved consequences of his actions.

[Tom_Violence]

Oh that's right! I just remembered what he did that was so heinous!

By becoming immortal, every time he died, someone else died in his stead and became a shadow! So he has innumerable deaths on his soul, as per his choices from his first incarnation. When he spoke with his First Incarnation in the prison, that Incarnation had repented after a fashion, and was truly good. But he still had to pay the price for all those souls he was responsible for...

That was a consequence of his becoming immortal, but not the cause of it. He did something awful before becoming immortal, and as Jothki said, he then wanted to become immortal in order to gain time to repent.

As to the goodness of the First... well, obviously he wasn't good before becoming immortal (immediately after becoming immortal he died and thus became someone else), but it does seem that he somehow became good at some stage (based on the conversation with him in the ... place at the end who's name has escaped me).

It seems that Jothki's conclusion is pretty much the conclusion of the game - every ending has him going down to the Blood War to 'serve his time', as it were.

[Tekar]

I always tought that after defeating TTO TNO (wow, I hope you're able to follow) became mortal again so when he got sent to the Blood War he went there to die finally.

But I'm quite clueless about the planescape universe apart from PS:T so you guys probably know better.

[endoperez]

His role in the Blood War itself during his past lives, or even maybe only his initial life I'm not sure of. It seems reasonable to assume that what exactly he did in his first life doesn't really exist objectively and was kept intentionally ambiguous (maybe because no one could really write something satisfying enough, or maybe just for the sake of discussions like this one ;) ).

The abishai in Sigil - again, I'm not sure of the legal details, but could they not have 'done their time' and got out? Or mayhaps they're there as part of the Blood War, as recruiters or somesuch?

I'm assuming by the "some powerful force using fire called him to fight" statement that you're referring to the end cinematic in which he gets dragged down into a hole of fire. I always just assumed that the fire was just representative of the Planes on which the Blood War was fought, not actually a direct act by something. Maybe I'm not reading enough into it... who knows?

Lastly (phew), I'm not sure how one becomes a devil, but I dare say that's probably possible. What I am pretty sure about though is that a devil's contract can be broken. After all, isn't that how Grace escaped from her life of servitude?


I can't comment on most of the issues you raised. I don't remember hearing about Nameless leading groups of soldiers, and the two Abishai in the Burning Corpse Inn didn't want to talk with me because Annah was there.

I agree that even the creators probably didn't decide what TNO did in his first life.

There were Abishai and other demons/devils in the Sigil, but e.g. one was guarding the siege tower, other could be recruiters or otherwise helping in the war. I don't know anything about them, though, because I never got to discuss with them, and only heard little about them.

The fires might just be a manifestation of the plane he was thrown at, as you said - but still, someone or something must have sentenced him, and I think someone must have noticed him getting his mortality and being back. Depending on who did that, TNO might be forced to suffer through all thrown at him, with no chance of getting out.

The game made a difference between devils and demons, baatezu and tanar'ri (although I don't remember what fancy name went to which ones): demons are Chaotic Evil, devils Lawful Evil. The Sensate telling about the Blood War told that the CE demons pay better, but might also just eat you if they happened to feel that way, while devils offered worse pay but respected the written contract. However, their contract would hold both ways, and therewas no way of getting it nullified. A demon might be tricked, but a devil's contract would hold.

[Varen_Tai]

TNO had a memory surface about the Blood Wars and his part in it at the Sensate manor. One of the lecturers was talking about the Blood War, and if you asked him the right questions, you'd get a memory about it.

That's one of the things I just loved about this game - so many memories, hidden things, and quests that you could easily breeze by and never even know it was there.

And yes, when TTO melded with TNO, he became mortal again. Albeit an extraordinarily powerful mortal.

The Good Incarnation in the prison was actually the First Incarnation, which is why he could tell TNO his name. And I believe that he was Good indeed, although he didn't start off that way. Becoming immortal at the cost of other's lives was a horrible evil, but he had a very very long time to think about that. His punishment was an important part of that process, so he couldn't dodge the eternities doomed to fighting the Blood War once merged with the current incarnation.

And no, the creators did not leave his crime undecided. I forget where exactly I gleaned that all the shadows trying to kill him were past victims of his own immortality, but I do recall that very specifically.

[endoperez]

And no, the creators did not leave his crime undecided. I forget where exactly I gleaned that all the shadows trying to kill him were past victims of his own immortality, but I do recall that very specifically.

I talked to the Sensate telling about the Blood War, but either my Wis was too low or I forgot about that.
I knew the Good incarnation for the original personality, thanks to my Int and Cha, though.

However, the immortality was NOT the greatest sin of the original character. IIRC the discussions with the Good incarnation correctly (they were only available after you identified him as the original one) made it clear that the great evil was done BEFORE TNO became immortal, and he pursued immortality to get more time to correct his mistake(s). The immortality wasn't the cause of the damnation.

[DeathQuaker]

Oh, he's gonna be there for a looooong time.

Oh yeah. When I meant "eventually" I meant in like... immeasurable amounts of many, many, many lifetimes. I just wondered if it's just "almost eternity" rather than for eternity itself. (Then again, I always had trouble with the idea of being punished if you weren't allowed to repent and learn from your mistakes. Of course, some people just _won't_ and need to be kept away from everyone else, dead or alive...)



Interestingly enough, someone did some NWN modules, two of them, that dealt with TNO's long term fate. You went to rescue him in the first, and at the end of the 2nd, several of his companions (Dak'kon for one, I think Annah and Grace, but unsure on the specifics) offered to take his place in the Blood Wars in order to release him.

Were those Beerfish's modules? The Dante's Inferno one and its sequel? Interesting games, although I thought some of the assumptions were flawed. Beerfish actually had TNO trapped away somewhere, sealed off in some kind of stasis, not fighting the Bloodwars. I can't remember the explanation as to why he changed that. (He also had TNO in love with Deionarra, which IMO the game made clear he never loved her; the Practical Incarnation merely used her, and the TNO you play in the game has little connection to her. I actually wrote to Beerfish and he said that it was pretty much how he wanted to see it end because he liked Deionarra's story.) Still, it was a pair of nice little modules, and a neat way to see one interpretation of events.



One person commenting on this said that he would never allow someone else to take TNO's place - he deserved what he got, and placing an innocent in his stead solved nothing, only prolonged the torment that those around him suffered.

*nods* Yep. So many souls had already "taken his place," so to speak. But again, he shifted the situation slightly anyway, so it doesn't quite work.



All of this was very interesting to me as I played TNO as LG as you could get, but after hearing about his past lives in-game, I'm not so sure I would release him that quick either. I mean, should he be punished for the sum total of all his lives, good and evil, or just the most recent one?

Sum total, IMO. It's all the same soul, really. With a LOT of potential. But it's why I also kinda think if he should be punished for his sins, he should also be eventually rewarded for any good he did. But then that probably makes it all too pat.

Really, I know having played him Lawful Good as well (I also did Chaotic Good) that he feels his fate is just. So if he does, I guess I'm no one to argue. :)



EDIT: A demi-power for sure. In 3E terms, super Epic. :)

Yeah.



I can't comment on most of the issues you raised. I don't remember hearing about Nameless leading groups of soldiers

Nothing about that... I had a vague a-ha moment last time I played that made me think he had done something to manipulate the Wars to his advantage. Not that he fought on the battlefields, per se... but the Blood Wars touch all the planes. But I also could be entirely making this up. :) I just re-installed the game, so if I get anywhere significant that might help me recall what my "ah-ha" moment was the last time, I'll let y'all know.



The game made a difference between devils and demons, baatezu and tanar'ri (although I don't remember what fancy name went to which ones): demons are Chaotic Evil, devils Lawful Evil. The Sensate telling about the Blood War told that the CE demons pay better, but might also just eat you if they happened to feel that way, while devils offered worse pay but respected the written contract. However, their contract would hold both ways, and therewas no way of getting it nullified. A demon might be tricked, but a devil's contract would hold.

Re: the Devils' (Baatezu, for the record) contracts: It's not that a devil's contract is unbreakable per se--it's as good as it is written. Devils are the epitome of Lawful Evil, those who twist orderlyness and honor towards their own selfish ends. Stories like Faust where a fiend "buys a soul" with a contract are the root of what Devils are supposed to be. Their contracts CAN be broken if someone finds a loophole--as Fall-from-Grace did. If TNO made an "unbreakable" contract with the Baatezu, it would have to be so well-worded that he could find no way to free himself from it. Which is quite possible--but OTOH TNO's a savvy guy.

[endoperez]

Re: the Devils' (Baatezu, for the record) contracts: It's not that a devil's contract is unbreakable per se--it's as good as it is written. Devils are the epitome of Lawful Evil, those who twist orderlyness and honor towards their own selfish ends. Stories like Faust where a fiend "buys a soul" with a contract are the root of what Devils are supposed to be. Their contracts CAN be broken if someone finds a loophole--as Fall-from-Grace did. If TNO made an "unbreakable" contract with the Baatezu, it would have to be so well-worded that he could find no way to free himself from it. Which is quite possible--but OTOH TNO's a savvy guy.

I never had Fall-from-Grace in my party, so I relied on the ramblings of the Sensate telling of the Blood War. I'll have to see what Fall-from-Grace will say to his claim that contracts with Baatezu are unbreakable.

[endoperez]

Sorry about douple-posting, but I thought to ask for some hints. I plan to play PS:T again after a while, this time with an evil character, a dumb character, or both. Should I ignore Cha or Int (I had low Wis my first time through, and very high Cha), or boost both to some minor value (10-12)? Can I get some good characters (like Fall-from-Grace) to join me, as an evil character?

[DeathQuaker]

I never had Fall-from-Grace in my party, so I relied on the ramblings of the Sensate telling of the Blood War. I'll have to see what Fall-from-Grace will say to his claim that contracts with Baatezu are unbreakable.

Fall-from-Grace doesn't talk about the Blood War much, but she talks a lot about the nature of Baatezu--she was a slave to them, and tricked a high-ranking devil into a contest to win her freedom.

It's not so much that the contracts aren't _unbreakable_, it's just that the savvy find ways around them.

Lawyers, that's what Devils are. Really, really, the stereotypicalx10 in-for-it-himself lawyer.


Sorry about douple-posting, but I thought to ask for some hints. I plan to play PS:T again after a while, this time with an evil character, a dumb character, or both. Should I ignore Cha or Int (I had low Wis my first time through, and very high Cha), or boost both to some minor value (10-12)?

Note that you'll miss out on a lot of fun stuff that you do this.

If I were to choose one though... I'd say keep a high Int, since you've already played a high Cha, and a high Int allows you to do some cool stuff (not to mention be a good mage, should you switch to that class).




Can I get some good characters (like Fall-from-Grace) to join me, as an evil character?

All of the characters are neutral (in Grace's case, Lawful Neutral) except for Morte, and Morte will stick with you regardless. They'll all join you regardless of alignment, though may leave if you treat them (but not necessarily other people) poorly.

[endoperez]

Note that you'll miss out on a lot of fun stuff that you do this.

Which will make me miss out things? Playing evil or playing dumb? I want to try out all three classes, and an evil, dumb fighter seemed fitting. I'm more interested in trying out Lawful Good magic-user eventually, but


If I were to choose one though... I'd say keep a high Int, since you've already played a high Cha, and a high Int allows you to do some cool stuff (not to mention be a good mage, should you switch to that class).

I did have enough Int to solve the puzzles of the undead and figure out all kinds of things. I had low Wisdom though.

[Tom_Violence]

If you want to see everything the game has to offer then high wisdom is absolutely essential for recovering memories, and high intelligence is needed for having the most conversation options.

Thus, I always play a mage. :P



Sum total, IMO. It's all the same soul, really. With a LOT of potential. But it's why I also kinda think if he should be punished for his sins, he should also be eventually rewarded for any good he did. But then that probably makes it all too pat.

Its an interesting question - in my opinion its not all the same soul, and I can't really see how it could be since each incarnation was different, sometimes radically so. And I still think that all those lives would probably cancel each other out to a great extent. He should be punished for what he did in his first life (which we know was huge, though we don't exactly know what). The real question is does that include becoming immortal and the consequences of doing so? If so, then yes, he would also have to be punished for all the sins of all the incarnations, even though it wasn't him that did them, per se.

[DeathQuaker]

Which will make me miss out things? Playing evil or playing dumb?

Playing dumb.



I want to try out all three classes, and an evil, dumb fighter seemed fitting.

Sure--could be fun! Just you miss some of the most interesting dialogue options if you have poor mental/social stats.



I did have enough Int to solve the puzzles of the undead and figure out all kinds of things. I had low Wisdom though.

High wisdom is good to have if for no other reason than the purely powergamerish one that you earn experience faster.

You can also only get the "best" ending with high wis, but you don't necessarily want that one if you're playing evil.

In the end it doesn't matter much because if you look around enough you can find ways to get significant enough stat bonuses later.


Its an interesting question - in my opinion its not all the same soul, and I can't really see how it could be since each incarnation was different, sometimes radically so.

See, I have no problem with that. There's a difference between soul and personality. I have a lot of natural anger, but I was raised a Quaker, so I learned to channel that anger through constructive means, and learned to solve conflicts without getting into fights where at all possible. If instead, say, I grew up on the streets, I'd probably have a dangerously temper, be quick to violence. I'd probably be a thief to boot. I know I have that in me--I believe in the influence of nature quite strongly, but nuture also has quite a lot to do with it.

The game makes clear, to me, that as different as the Nameless One is in his different incarnations, it IS all HIM--just different memories, different situations, and different influences caused him to behave differently upon each "awakening."

[LOTR_Dan]

Ok, here I go again.

Is the answer ever gven to "What can Change the Nature of a Man?" It's been bothering me for a long time. I thought it was just left to the player to determine, but I wanted to see if anyone got an actual in-game answer.

I always felt the answer was belief. Belief made Adahn. Belief killed Valithor. Belief made the plants grow.

But then again, that is less a Torment thing and more of just a general Planescape thing, so I don't know.

[Jothki]

You can also only get the "best" ending with high wis, but you don't necessarily want that one if you're playing evil.

How so? There are a number of ways that you can merge, including threatening to utterly destroy yourself. Do you mean recovering your true name?

I like how when you recover the memories of your first incarnation, you get the Symbol of Torment as an item. Because of the loss of memories, the incarnations all came into being without understanding their purpose, and so acted blindly, usually creating more harm than good, and binding themselves and others into torment. By finally understanding who he was, the Nameless One freed himself from that torment. The Symbol coming off was a nice representation of that.

[Archonic Energy]

and a bloody good spell!

[DeathQuaker]

Ok, here I go again.

Is the answer ever gven to "What can Change the Nature of a Man?" It's been bothering me for a long time. I thought it was just left to the player to determine, but I wanted to see if anyone got an actual in-game answer.

I always felt the answer was belief. Belief made Adahn. Belief killed Valithor. Belief made the plants grow.

There are two answers.

The first, for Ravel, is whatever you believe it is. So for your TNO, "Belief" is the correct answer. I.e., Ravel never had an answer in mind, she just wanted to know what you thought it was.

The "Good Incarnation" which is the original TNO tells you that his answer is "Regret." (Hence, the Fortress of Regrets)

[DeathQuaker]

How so? There are a number of ways that you can merge, including threatening to utterly destroy yourself. Do you mean recovering your true name?


MAJOR spoilers here for anyone who hasn't seen all of the endings:

I'm sure anyone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty certain you need a high wisdom (22 minimum IIRC) and charisma to convince TTO to willingly merge with you. This is the "best" "good" ending in that it allows you to ressurect and give a proper goodbye to all six of your companions.

IIRC, if you threaten to destroy yourself (which I think requires a high int), you don't get to do the ressurect.

[LOTR_Dan]

There are several ways to merge with TTO. It should go without saying this whole post is *A SPOILER*

First, you can threaten to kill yourself with The Blade of The Imortal. Of course if you don't *HAVE* it, that kinda makes this impossible.

2nd, If you know your true name thanks to The Bronze Sphere, you can use the power of the true name to force TTO to merge with you.

3rd, If you have enough wisdom (24 I think) you can threaten to unmake yourself with your own will. You simply have to belive you don't exist and then you don't.

Finally, if you are a *REALLY* charismatic talker (Again, I think you need 24) you can simply convince TTO to merge with you.

The other endings are a little more blunt.

Kill Yourself:
1.) Use The Blade of The Imortal to Kill Yourself.
2.) Unmake Yourself (24 Wis)

Kill TTO:
Well, it's not hard. You just beat the crap out of him. If you want you can bring your friends back to life. Bring Morte back first because he's not really dead and you get another pick. My brother said he was able to trick TTO into letting him raise all of his companions, but I'm not sure how.

[LOTR_Dan]

The "Good Incarnation" which is the original TNO tells you that his answer is "Regret." (Hence, the Fortress of Regrets)


Wow, I feel stupid. I *knew* that. I still like my answer better though. Screw the Good Incarnation. He wasn't that good anyway. :)

[Jothki]

Kill TTO:
Well, it's not hard. You just beat the crap out of him. If you want you can bring your friends back to life. Bring Morte back first because he's not really dead and you get another pick. My brother said he was able to trick TTO into letting him raise all of his companions, but I'm not sure how.

After you find out that you can resurrect your companions, tell him that all of those shades that you encountered earlier are now wandering freely around the fortress, and he'll leave for long enough for you to resurrect everyone. You might need a stat for that, I'm not sure.

[belboz]

I think the "What can change the nature of a man" question really is at the center of all this...whether TNO really deserves his fate (which I always saw as neverending battle in the blood war) because of what someone who was...him? not really him? did so very long ago.

And I don't think the question ever *is* answered, really. The Good Incarnation does, indeed, say "regret". But if that were true, then assuming the TNO truly regrets and is sorry for the crimes of past incarnations, does he deserve his fate? Or are we expected to believe that the *true* answer is "nothing," which is, IIRC, another of the answers you can give Ravel?

[DeathQuaker]

There are several ways to merge with TTO. It should go without saying this whole post is *A SPOILER*



LOTR Dan, I know those are the various ways you can do the end game--I've played through several of them myself. But of all the things you've listed, at least when I played through, there was only one or two ways which allowed you to actually ressurrect ALL your companions AFTER the merge and be able to say good bye to them--it's how to trigger the "goodbye scene" that I'm talking about, not how to merge with/kill TTO in general.

It's been awhile since I tried out the different endings, but at least on MY playthrough, the ONLY way I got the "goodbye scene" was by convincing TTO to merge with you with a high Charisma and Wisdom (it DOES require both, now that you mention it--you need a Wis of 22 and Cha of 24). I think the idea is since you've done it so that TTO is completely willing (rather than forced/tricked into it) you regain all your power and restore your companions ALL AT ONCE and get a nice little cutscene for your trouble.

I've also done the thing where you trick him into leaving a moment so you can ressurect someone BEFORE you fight him, but when I did that I only was given enough time to ressurrect ONE of your six companions before he returns (and I've done it several times; in fact I vaguely recall the game saying "you only have so much time so pick one"), and then you are forced into combat with him. Once you defeat him, you are NOT allowed to ressurect any more of your companions; you go straight to Hell (if your one companion survives the combat, I presume you get to say goodbye to that one person).

I know if you simply kill him you can't ressurrect anyone, and I know if you kill yourself with the blade of the Immortal, you also don't get to ressurect anyone (obviously, because you killed yourself before you could do it).

[LOTR_Dan]

Hmmmm. Well I need to play it again I guess.

[Tekar]

There is another way to ressurrect them all. You need to realise during your conversation that you really are powerfull enough to ressurrect them all, the TTO would be able to do it and since you are both of the same you *know* you will be able to do it too.
After you realise this you can ressurrect them all when you bait him into leaving and you fight him with all your party members.
My guess is that this requires high int (I was playing a mage with 25 int at that time)

EDIT: spelling

[DeathQuaker]

Wow, I feel stupid. I *knew* that. I still like my answer better though. Screw the Good Incarnation. He wasn't that good anyway. :)

Nah, don't feel stupid. After all again--even the game says, the best answer is your own answer. :)



There is another way to ressurrect them all. You need to realise during your conversation that you really are powerfull enough to ressurrect them all, the TTO would be able to do it and since you are both of the same you *know* you will be able to do it too.
After you realise this you can ressurrect them all when you bait him into leaving and you fight him with all your party members.
My guess is that this requires high int (I was playing a mage with 25 int at that time)


Aaaaahh..... I think when I tried most of the endings I didn't have an int that high. I think somewhere on my recovery disc from when my old computer asplode I've got a save from a TNO Mage who prolly has a high enough Int... I'll check it out when I get a chance (and replay through some of the others and see just how much swiss cheese my brain is made of :) ).

[Tekar]

Wow, I feel stupid. I *knew* that. I still like my answer better though. Screw the Good Incarnation. He wasn't that good anyway. :)

I for one really like the regret answer because it's the entire reason for TNO's torment. The good incarnation regretted what he had done and he changed drastically.

[Jothki]

I for one really like the regret answer because it's the entire reason for TNO's torment. The good incarnation regretted what he had done and he changed drastically.

But he didn't change. Right up until his memory was lost, the Good Incarnation was as greedy and selfish as he had always been.

[Tekar]

Really? I tought he already changed in his first incarnation.

[endoperez]

Really? I tought he already changed in his first incarnation.

I thought so too. I understood that he wanted to become immortal so he'd have more time to right the wrongs he had commited.

[Yuki Akuma]

..Damn, this thread is making me want to play again.

This wouldn't be so bad if I hadn't deleted my full install during a clean-up binge and lost the CDs. -_-'

[DeathQuaker]

I thought so too. I understood that he wanted to become immortal so he'd have more time to right the wrongs he had commited.

Right... it just turned out that what he tried to do to extend his lifespan went horridly wrong, adding to the whole mess he'd already made. But I could be wrong. I should just go replay the game and stop messing around at message boards. ;)

[Jothki]

Right... it just turned out that what he tried to do to extend his lifespan went horridly wrong, adding to the whole mess he'd already made. But I could be wrong. I should just go replay the game and stop messing around at message boards. ;)

And his means of seeking that immortality weren't particularly good, either. His motives were inherently selfish, if he had truely changed he would have simply started acting good instead of going great lengths to buy himself more time.

Even if he had actually been able to retain his memory, I doubt that the First Incarnation would have devoted potential eternity to Goodness. With the crisis averted, he would likely have squandered his time anyway.

Regret clearly cannot change the nature of a man.

[Archonic Energy]

Regret clearly cannot change the nature of a man.

no but Ravel can...

[Tom_Violence]

I'm with Jothki on this one - the first incarnation was (at the time of meeting Ravel, at least) just 'playing the game', doing exactly what he wanted to do and then, when mortality reared its ugly head, suddenly thinking "****, I'm going to hell if I don't fix this". So he learned the rules and did what he had to do to avoid his fate. But he wanted to do 'good' just to prevent going to hell, not out of any sense of real benevolence, or duty (to take a Kantian stance on it), or to be a good person, or whatever. He did it because he knew that was what he had to do.

I think the question of buying time is a bit moot though - he had to get more time regardless due to the gravity of his evil acts. His motives for getting more time (and just for getting more time) are irrelevant because getting more time was a practical necessity for him to right his wrongs.

Did he change, really? To be honest, I don't know and I haven't re-read the final conversation recently enough to be able to properly comment there. My impression right now is that yes he regrets what he did, but that doesn't really tell us much. Does he regret what has happened because it was really bad, or just because its left him in a crap situation? Time for a replay, me thinks. ;)

My new conclusion for this is - who cares about the nature of a man? It seems that the Planescape universe judges people based on acts, not motives. Otherwise, getting more time would not be necessary, because if he truely, truely regretted his past acts, via some epiphany of whatever, then his nature would have changed and he would have become a 'good person', so to speak. Maybe I'm way off the mark here, but it strikes me that someone who spends their entire life filled with hatred for every other living being, but without the guts to actually do anything bad, dies with a morally clean slate. But one who does a lot of small evils and then, right at the end, genuinely realises what a bastard they've been and wishes to reform, goes to hell! Does that seem fair?

Edit: Spoon? Que? Clearly this board has some personal disagreements with my choice of language.

[Matthew]

Hmmn. I thought it was 'time' that could change the nature of a man, but it's been a long time since I played...

[Umbilical_Lotus]

I picked "Suffering", and it seems I got it right.

The Good Incarnation is still around, in a minor and fragmented way, just as the Practical and Paranoid incarnations were. Bits of the old self inside TNO's current persona, not exactly alive but almost like seperate entities. The timeline during Torment was purposely vague. You rarely have an idea of just how long things have been going on - at times it seems like just a couple of years, at other times forever. You don't know the span of time between incarnations, or how many different incarnations passed through, or why the Good, Practical and Paranoid ones left the biggest marks, or anything relating to time. For all we know, the Good Incarnation has had a long, long time to reflect on what's been going on.

Time may not heal all wounds, but so much time alone with nothing to do but ponder your own actions sucks and hurts. And no matter if the time frame between losing his mortality and regaining it is only a few years, well, have you ever SPENT a few years with nothing to do but gnaw over your past mistakes? It sucks! I DO think the Good incarnation really WAS good, because there was just no other option at that point. No matter what kind of blackheart you are, if you spend that much time gnawing your old scars, something's going to change.

So yeah. I think he actually WAS good. He showed remorse, and he was part of that little smile TNO showed when he waded into the Blood War at the end.

[Liliedhe]

My answer to Ravel's riddle was "Death". Considering, how different all of TNO's incarnations were, it seems to me, dying really changed his nature and he became a new person every time. Morte also changed a lot when he died... I understand there is no 'correct' answer, but that one worked for me...

Is there any possibility to talk Trias out of his vengeance so you don't have to fight him? I don't want to kill him... Especially not for those selfish idiots in Curst. They deserve what they got... Ok, maybe I'm a little biased there ;D

[DeathQuaker]

Is there any possibility to talk Trias out of his vengeance so you don't have to fight him? I don't want to kill him... Especially not for those selfish idiots in Curst. They deserve what they got... Ok, maybe I'm a little biased there ;D

IIRC, I believe you can. Do NOT have Vhaillor in your party, however, because the bitch will attack him anyway. (This is why I never liked using Vhaillor. He was a tank, but was ultimately a pain in the ass if you wanted to try any of the intelligent solutions to your problems... attacking you, attacking Annah, attacking Trias... bleh.)

[Liliedhe]

I got around the Vhaillor problem by leaving him at the entrance of the building before facing Trias - he doesn't interfere then. But I never managed to talk the Deva out of fighting... No matter how much I tried to boost my stats.

I like Vhaillor ;D - even if I have to leave him out of conversation most of the time. Thank heaven the AI in the game is so stupid sometimes.

[Yuki Akuma]

You have to fight Trias. He's one of the rare enemies you HAVE to fight in fact. You don't have to kill him, though...

Each possible outcome (let him live, kill him) unlocks a specific tattoo in Fell's tattoo parlour.

HOWEVER. It's possible to get both. If you spare Trias' life, the game unlocks the first tattoo. If you have Vhailor in your party, and he kills him, when you say "Just die already", it unlocks the second tattoo.

Yay glitches! ;D

[Liliedhe]

Ok, then I can stop trying and get on with the game... I'll just not kill him. But it's a shame, really. :'(

But speaking of glitches... For some reasons everybody in the vicinity of the Smoldering Corpse Bar wants to kill me - and I don't know why. It doesn't matter whom I have in the party and their is no dialogue. Suddenly everybody takes an aggressive stance and they start attacking me. Is this because I killed the thugs in the warehouse? Or because of Annah annoying one harlot too many? I'm lawful good... but even Amarysse wants to kill me...

[Yuki Akuma]

Have you killed anyone by accident, or pick-pocketed someone and got caught?

[Liliedhe]

No, never. I've only killed the thugs that attacked me, but never anybody on the streets and I've never stolen anything. It's really strange, I can go to Amarysse and talk to her, she thanks me for finding her brother, and when the dialogue disappears, her 'circle' goes red and she and the other ladies attack me.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well... that IS weird.

[Tom_Violence]

I picked "Suffering", and it seems I got it right.

The Good Incarnation is still around, in a minor and fragmented way, just as the Practical and Paranoid incarnations were. Bits of the old self inside TNO's current persona, not exactly alive but almost like seperate entities. The timeline during Torment was purposely vague. You rarely have an idea of just how long things have been going on - at times it seems like just a couple of years, at other times forever. You don't know the span of time between incarnations, or how many different incarnations passed through, or why the Good, Practical and Paranoid ones left the biggest marks, or anything relating to time. For all we know, the Good Incarnation has had a long, long time to reflect on what's been going on.

Time may not heal all wounds, but so much time alone with nothing to do but ponder your own actions sucks and hurts. And no matter if the time frame between losing his mortality and regaining it is only a few years, well, have you ever SPENT a few years with nothing to do but gnaw over your past mistakes? It sucks! I DO think the Good incarnation really WAS good, because there was just no other option at that point. No matter what kind of blackheart you are, if you spend that much time gnawing your old scars, something's going to change.

So yeah. I think he actually WAS good. He showed remorse, and he was part of that little smile TNO showed when he waded into the Blood War at the end.

I'm not sure that this makes much sense. By this logic anyone in the same situation would've had that much remorse for their past life, so describing them as good is redundant because they are absolutely the same as everyone else. I'm not saying that morality is relative, but the conclusion of what you're saying seems to be that everyone is good, deep deep down.

On the subject of Trias, there's always something that I found entertaining about him. About his death, actually. That was, killing him gave you one of the best weapons in the game, but it really wasn't one of the nicest things to do. However, the weapon could only be used by a Lawful Good character. So what to do? The plan seemed to be that you had to be that lawful and good to allow you to kill someone when you didn't need to. I remember there being a very good evil weapon, but I can't recall where that one was.

[Jothki]

I'm not sure that this makes much sense. By this logic anyone in the same situation would've had that much remorse for their past life, so describing them as good is redundant because they are absolutely the same as everyone else. I'm not saying that morality is relative, but the conclusion of what you're saying seems to be that everyone is good, deep deep down.

On the subject of Trias, there's always something that I found entertaining about him. About his death, actually. That was, killing him gave you one of the best weapons in the game, but it really wasn't one of the nicest things to do. However, the weapon could only be used by a Lawful Good character. So what to do? The plan seemed to be that you had to be that lawful and good to allow you to kill someone when you didn't need to. I remember there being a very good evil weapon, but I can't recall where that one was.

I think that giant construct gives it to you if you give it that Modron portal thing.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Spoiler:

The Nameless One dies.

Sorry, I've been wanting to do that since I first saw this thread. Please don't hurt me.

[Cubey]

Spoiler:

The Nameless One dies.


What? But... nooo! Now I have no motivation to continue playing the game. I have, however, the motivation to counter this with more spoilers.
Anakin becomes Darth Vader! Dun dun dun...
Oh noes! Aeris dies!
Baldur's Gate main hero is really a child of... wait. Somebody could actually not know this one yet.

[Tekar]

On the subject of Trias, there's always something that I found entertaining about him. About his death, actually. That was, killing him gave you one of the best weapons in the game, but it really wasn't one of the nicest things to do. However, the weapon could only be used by a Lawful Good character. So what to do? The plan seemed to be that you had to be that lawful and good to allow you to kill someone when you didn't need to.
Lawfull good characters are not the most good characters. Neutral good ones are, the lawfull good characters will often let the law sway them even tough it might not be the most kind and good option. eg: trias, lawfull needs to kill him but good will try to 'heal' him, the same thing counts for that beserk guard captain in Nashkel in BG1, I always found it sad my Paladin had to turn him in because he was lawfull (you didn't really had tto, but I felt that was what my paladin would do, he'd follow the law)

[The_Shaman]

Weeeeell... It's hard to say which good alignment is the "most good." LGs are no less dedicated to goodness, they just see it in conjunction to law. As for paladins, for me they should be good first and lawful second.

[Senex]

Concerning TNO's 'original sin':

In the official novel, The Nameless One has made a pact with the Fhjull Forked-Tongue, offering his service as a soldier in the Blood War in exchange for his town being spared.

[Om]

Well I've heard that the official novel is very sub-par and this seems to confirm it. The game gives the impression that TNO had committed a series of very grave crimes. But meh.

Planescape is easily the best cRPG I've ever played. The quality of the writing and dialogue is simply staggering. If anyone is reading this without playing the game… then get it now!

[Yuki Akuma]

Concerning TNO's 'original sin':

In the official novel, The Nameless One has made a pact with the Fhjull Forked-Tongue, offering his service as a soldier in the Blood War in exchange for his town being spared.

That...

That...

...

Words cannot begin to describe how utterly foul the novel is.

[Charles Phipps]

I like to think that merging with his True Self means that he's gained mortality. For better or worse, he's free from his immortal life and will be able to escape his service in the Blood War.

Of course, the current situation in D&D implies the Blood War is OVER, so he might well be out of his contract.

[Toastkart]

I always thought the answer to "what can change the nature of a man" was torment, considering the name of the game. I seem to recall getting a different reaction from Ravel when I answered that rather than any of the other choices.

Also, I so didn't know about an extra 'goodbye' scene. Usually when I beat the game my int and wis are around 22-23, but my cha is only about 19-20. Next time I play I'll have to try and shoot for this.

As for Vhaillor and Ignus, I usually get them in my party, talk to them for their story and xp, then piss them off so they attack me. My sixth party member is always Nordom.

[Blayze]

Yeah, I don't see much reason to keep Ignus around after I've used him for the bonuses he gives. That's the way of the Nameless One, is it not? Meet people, use them, discard them.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah, I don't see much reason to keep Ignus around after I've used him for the bonuses he gives. That's the way of the Nameless One, is it not? Meet people, use them, discard them.

That might be the way of your Nameless One, but mine was Neutral Good, thank you very much.

He killed Ignus, instead. Twice. :smallwink:

[Blayze]

No, no, I mean the way of the Nameless One in general (At least according to Fell, that is. :P). As for my own forays into Sigil, The Nameless One subscribes to the Red Mage school of thought.

In other words, his morality is whatever gets him the best loot, the most EXP and the biggest stat boosts. Funnily enough, that seems to mean Lawful Good.

I'm still trying to work out a way of getting everything from every faction. So far, I've joined the Chaosmen (No real point) and the Dusties. You have to be a Godsman to become an Anarchist, don't you? (And I hope that I can do any available Godsman quests, etc, and still become an Anarchist) That's going to be the next real step for me, I think, as I'm sure I can't be a Dustie and a Sensate at the same time...

Gotta love powergaming the plot. :)

Edit: 'Sides, I still killed Ignus... Supplicant. ;)

[Pronounceable]

I'm gonna be babbling on for a while...


The original TNO was an evil guy. He was a mighty BMF. When he realized that he was going to hell, he wanted to avoid it. So he went and found Ravel, charmed and tricked her into fulfilling his wish of immortality. He wanted time to do enough good to balance his evil deeds. Whether he had REALLY regretted being evil and changed at that time is unknown. But he retained his old methods regardless.

(BTW, the guy swept off the feet of the most infamous night hag. Talk about epic CHA score. And that was before the countless lives he lived...)

Ravel did what she could. She seperated TNO's mortality from him. If someone has no mortality, he's no mortal. Therefore he's immortal. And then killed TNO to test the immortality. It worked. Instead of TNO dying, Ravel's "gift" hunted down someone else and killed him/her, s/he became a shadow and was drawn to the NE plane. TNO was revived. (As time went on, the seperated mortality became TTO, who retained all knowledge and experience of all lives.)

But TNO had lost his own personality. He was someone else now. So began the neverending cycle of Torment. In time, more and more people died, turned to shadow and went to NE plane. (I believe the Fortress itself was made up of particularly unlucky shadows, like the Faithless Wall of FR.)


There are 3 major incarnations up to ours. The Good is the original one. He was, for some reason (maybe because being the original), always contained in TNO as some sort of self aware instinct (like a spyware in a PC, although he was probably built-in).

He WAS the prickling sensation at the back of his skull (he admits that). That feeling meant the Good incarnation was trying to help the current incarnation (not only ours, I think he tried to help ALL incarnations, minor and major) by restoring some memories or experiences to himself. And his ability to restore memories means he also remembered all lives just like TTO. He was genuinely good at the end; after having witnessed the entire existence of TNO, the suffering it created, pondering his own life and carrying the burden of guilt for everything. Absorbing him grants our TNO the memories of the first life. It was too much to take in, so our TNO just ignores the memories for the rest of the endgame.

The Practical incarnation is the most BMF of all. Say no more! I love absorbing that SOB. His despair when he realizes that he's being absorbed is one of the more cherisable points in the game.
Good riddance to freeloading bastard, I hope he fries...

The Paranoid incarnation is a badass. He went insane because of effects of other incarnations' actions. He's one of the victims of TNO when viewed this way. He's brilliant. Just look at all the traps he laid (tomb, dodecahedron, sensory stone), those require massive skill. He also escaped one of Lady's mazes. But he's just a lost and confused individual, deep down. And he must also be put out for his own good.


What can change the nature of a man?

"Whatever you believe can change the nature of a man can change the nature of a man." This is our incarnation's answer. He asks the question to TTO, which his answer is "Nothing." (IIRC). Then TNO gives this answer to the question. (which is absolutely correct IMO)


What happens to TNO?

He joins the Blood War. As he has absorbed TTO (regaining all memories of all lives in the process), he becomes a mortal. He should've died ages ago, so finally death catches up with him. He dies and is drawn to lower planes, to his deserved afterlife. Having his complete memories and powers make him a demigod for all intents and purposes. I'm positive he's a prize for either side of the war, once they take notice of him. He's a sexy, scarred god of war now; even a magnitude higher than Chuck Norris.

His fate is richly deserved, for it was ultimately him who did everything he did. There are no other souls or different beings who would get different afterlives. Many have already paid for his mistakes (shadows). Only Deionnara's "sacrifice" would get someone a fate worse than the Pillar, and that's but a drop in the ocean for TNO.

And I'm actually unsure about the final personality of TNO. Did one incarnation (probably ours) fully dominated and suppressed all, did TTO broke his will and possess TNO (because TTO was a BMF as well), or did all personalities of every incarnation fused to become a new identity? I'd expect the latter, but I don't know.


...
Now that is a lot of writing. Wonder if anyone will read it all?

[SITB]

Whether he had REALLY regretted being evil and changed at that time is unknown. But he retained his old methods regardless.


Since the sphere records TNO memories before Ravel's ritual, it's implied that he actually regreted all those things he did according to TNO sensations from that sphere.

I have also wondered what does TNO actually does during the blood war, it's not like most of the demons can hurt him by then.

[Charles Phipps]

I have also wondered what does TNO actually does during the blood war, it's not like most of the demons can hurt him by then.

Actually, he picks up a presumably enchanted weapon.

One would also think that TNO's Stats are about Fighter 20/Thief 20/Mage 20 at this point so he's probably going to wail on a crapload of demons at this point.

Also, I tend to think that the nature of GOOD is forgiveness. If Darth Vader can be forgiven, so can Nameless.

[Morty]

If Darth Vader can be forgiven, so can Nameless.

It appears that The Nameless One has done much more evil than Vader before he met Ravel, and even more in all his incarnations.

[Charles Phipps]

It appears that The Nameless One has done much more evil than Vader before he met Ravel, and even more in all his incarnations.

Yeah, the point of Vader is that no matter how evil a man does. He can be forgiven because there's no point of no return.

[Nyarlethotep]

such an awesome game...i might have to dig it back out to replay it! it's been MANY a year since i played it but i always felt that the answer to "what can change the nature of man" was "nothing". slightly pessimistic, perhaps, but every character seemed pretty trapped by who they are and pretty powerless to do anything about it.

[Om]

Actually, he picks up a presumably enchanted weapon.If you're talking about that mace/axe from the final scene, I see no reason to think that this was in anyway enchanted. Quite the opposite actually.

[Morty]

Yeah, the point of Vader is that no matter how evil a man does. He can be forgiven because there's no point of no return.

Well, in Planescape there apparently is. TNO in his first incarnation reached it, and he failed to redeem in his countless reincarnations.
As for the big question:
In the last dialogue with The Transcendent One, it's possible to say that actually everything can change the nature of the man, if it's strong enough- the examples are love, regret and torment. I lean towards this answer.

[Pronounceable]

One would also think that TNO's Stats are about Fighter 20/Thief 20/Mage 20 at this point so he's probably going to wail on a crapload of demons at this point.

Also, I tend to think that the nature of GOOD is forgiveness. If Darth Vader can be forgiven, so can Nameless.


That'd be only our incarnation's stats. I'd imagine TNO has picked up about 10-20 levels of every class available over the ages. Probably fighter and mage are above 30. He'd get them all back upon becoming whole. That'd make him what? Level 100+? He transcends DnD, he's into DBZ magnitude powers.

I don't think XP system of DnD will be able to deal with a case like TNO.


P.S: Not to put too fine a point on it, but Vader can't be forgiven. The first step on the road of redemption cost him his life. If he lived more, he could have atoned for his crimes. But he didn't.

[Driderman]

Absolutely fantastic game! It's been years since I've played it, but still remember it vividly and I believe I have uncovered most 'secrets' of the game, although probably not all of them.
I particularily liked all those little things, the amazing dialogue and stories that made it so outstanding. Like introducing yourself as Adahn enough times and Adahn actually appears in the Smoldering Corpse and the story Morte tells to the tale-teller in the Brothel:

An old man sits on a bench. He can't remember who he is or what he is doing there. A hag tells him: "And now for your last wish" which he wonders about, but then wishes to know who he is.
The hag says "funny, that was your first wish as well" and grants his wish

All those little things. Like talking to the zombies in the Mortuary after you get Stories-Bones-Tell and realise that one of them is a former companion of yours, Zachariah the Blind Archer. D'akkon can also tell you something about him after you visit Fells parlor at some point, but you'll need to patch the game, otherwise it won't work properly.
I've always wondered at Ilquix though. If you kill the Baatezu deserters in the Smoldering Corpse, he transforms into his true form, a Glabrezu I think it is, and tells you that he might teach you some tricks at a later time, but I've never gotten anything more out of him than that, even though I've returned to him just before leaving for the Fortress Of Regrets. I even did all those horrible things the Book (Of Vile Darkness? Can't remember its name, the one you get from the Wererat) told me to do, thinking it might have something to do with it.

As for what can change the nature of a man, it is 'Regret' according to the game, although most if not all of the possible answers are valid I suppose. Still, in the context of the story it seems appropriate.
Concerning the ending, if you raise all your companions and have Fall-From-Grace in your party, she marks you with some sort of magic and tells you "I will find you" before you're sucked into the lower planes. I suppose she might take the Nameless One's place in the Blood War when she does so, she seems to sort to sacrifice herself for him and she knows how to handle herself in fiend-land after all. As a sidenote, the weapon TNO picks up in the final cutscene looks an awful lot like the "Heartgrinder" axe you received from a T'anari in the Curst holocaust. Which is coincidentially the evil weapon someone spoke of earlier, in relation to Trias The Betrayer and his blade.

This has already been covered somewhat, but as far as I remember it the original incarnation committed a horrible crime and realised he was sentenced to the lower planes for it. He then sought out Ravel to make him immortal, seeking immortality not for time to make up for his deed but to simply avoid his fate. Of course, there were unforseen consequences as we well know... He then lurks in the head of the physical form of TNO for a long time and during that period of time regrets, thus becoming 'the good incarnation'.

[Charles Phipps]

If you're talking about that mace/axe from the final scene, I see no reason to think that this was in anyway enchanted. Quite the opposite actually.

Simple. All weapons in the Blood War are enchanted. It's how you kill Fiends.

:-)


Well, in Planescape there apparently is. TNO in his first incarnation reached it, and he failed to redeem in his countless reincarnations.

The irony being that his redemption was worse than his crimes, I imagine.


Concerning the ending, if you raise all your companions and have Fall-From-Grace in your party, she marks you with some sort of magic and tells you "I will find you" before you're sucked into the lower planes.

Like I said, given the Blood War is ending in D&D, ironically the Nameless One just had to survive the equivalent of 5 years game time.

;-)

[Tengu]

What can change the nature of a man?

"Whatever you believe can change the nature of a man can change the nature of a man." This is our incarnation's answer. He asks the question to TTO, which his answer is "Nothing." (IIRC). Then TNO gives this answer to the question. (which is absolutely correct IMO)



As for the big question:
In the last dialogue with The Transcendent One, it's possible to say that actually everything can change the nature of the man, if it's strong enough- the examples are love, regret and torment. I lean towards this answer.

None of those answers are actually correct. The truth is...


Belief.

[SITB]

None of those answers are actually correct. The truth is...


Belief.


It is said that whatever you believe hard enough can actually change you, it's not that belief itself changes you; it's the amount of effort put into that notion.

[Tengu]

It is said that whatever you believe hard enough can actually change you, it's not that belief itself changes you; it's the amount of effort put into that notion.

Does that not make belief the thing that changes you in the end? Also, bear in mind that the whole game is about belief, and how believing can change things - to name a few examples, there's the guy in one of your memories who disappeared after you proved that his existence is impossible, or how, after you tell enough people that your name is X (I don't remember the exact name), a man named X really appears in one place, because all these people believed that someone who's named like that exists.

Belief is a powerful force in the world of Planescape. Unless I spent some time braindead, I am also sure it is the official, Word Of God answer to "what can change the nature of man".

[Blayze]

Tengu beat me to it. Don't forget about Mourns-for-Trees, though. ;)

As Kamina from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann so rightly put it...

"Don't believe in yourself! I believe in you! Believe that I believe!"

[Driderman]

Does that not make belief the thing that changes you in the end? Also, bear in mind that the whole game is about belief, and how believing can change things - to name a few examples, there's the guy in one of your memories who disappeared after you proved that his existence is impossible, or how, after you tell enough people that your name is X (I don't remember the exact name), a man named X really appears in one place, because all these people believed that someone who's named like that exists.

Belief is a powerful force in the world of Planescape. Unless I spent some time braindead, I am also sure it is the official, Word Of God answer to "what can change the nature of man".

Some very nice points here in the philosophical corner, but consider that the "true" Nameless One, the original incarnation, was an evil bastard and it was 'Regret', not 'Belief' that changed his nature. One could argue that seeing as he is the source from every other incarnation springs his truth is the correct one.
Of course, this being Planescape belief is definitely a contender as well.
I'm not sure you get any answer to the question of what can change the nature of a man, except for the fact that you have to inscribe the answer on a piece of your flesh to access the endgame. That answer being 'Regret', of course.

On a sidenote, the Blood War is ending??
I was under the impression that with the new D&D edition it was rather just retconned away since they're changing the fiends.

[Nyarlethotep]

and for me, that's what sums up how awesome this game is...all this debate over a (seemingly) simple question which has no real, 100% correct answer. and to weave that mystery all the way through the game is genius in my opinion. also, i kind of just assumed that weapon at the end was just a generic weapon left where it fell by someone else. to me it shows his pragmatic (bloodthirsty? resigned??) nature that he just picks up "the nearest thing to hand" and throws himself back into the fray. it's not often a game makes you think so much!

[Charles Phipps]

Well, it's not a SPOILER for 4E but here's the truth of it...

Re: The Blood War

I think, officially, 4E is going to have the Blood War end with a bang rather than a whimper. Asmodeus always said that he was going to end the Blood War when he's fully recovered from his wounds as per Guide to Hell. Asmodeus will be joining the ranks of the Greater Deities according to Richard Baker in 4E.

Honestly, I do think that the story couldn't really end in anything but a tragedy. There's a well realized and all pervasive sense of doom that's following the Nameless One around. Sigil is not a place of happy endings and I like the "Damned if you Do" choices of some decisions. Here's some of my favorite choices in the game so far.

1. You have to kill a Dabus by omission to move to the next level.

2. If you save Saros from the Executioner's Ax, it's clear the Boy is going to be continuing on as an Anarchist.

3. The Anarchists are just scum.

4. Yet, contrarilly, The Harmonium are a bunch of slavers.

5. I already figured out that the Ghosts that were hunting me were probably those of people killed in my place, mostly because I had just a moment of intuition on that respect and there's a strong sense of balance to the planes.

6. The Past Lives we've learned about show the Nameless One as a variety of different types of people.

Actually, I retract my earlier statement regarding The Nameless One. Redemption is a meaningless concept in the world of Planescape because it's something that's lived rather than earned. The Nameless One could be a Saint one day or a Sinner but the fact is that tomorrow he could be something else entirely.

Life is an endless series of cycles rather than something that has answers.

I think the Nameless One shouldn't die in Baator, though, because Sigil is fundamentally berift of moral judgements. The Nameless One is proof positive that, at least in Planescape, the idea of punishment and redemption are just words.

Personally, my favorite idea for how Nameless breaks his contract will be the way that we broke the Mage's contract in the Lower Ward....drive an ax through his head.

So, does everyone agree...

1. Merging with Mortality returns you to normal
2. Killing your mortality makes you truly immortal

?

[Yuki Akuma]

Considering that when you kill your mortality you die...

No, I don't agree at all.

[Pyro]

My sixth party member is always Nordom.

ALWAYS NORDOM!!?

You must not have played more than five times, because I would have gone insane if I tried to find Nordom every time I played. Finding him twice is still insane....

[Charles Phipps]

Considering that when you kill your mortality you die...

No, I don't agree at all.

It seriously has it coming.

TO THE LIFE IMMORTAL!

[Yuki Akuma]

ALWAYS NORDOM!!?

You must not have played more than five times, because I would have gone insane if I tried to find Nordom every time I played. Finding him twice is still insane....

It's not really hard when you know that you always enter his room from the bottom-right (so therefore he can only be through one of the top-left doors).

Also, graph paper.

[Pyro]

It must be something that becomes easier over time because I used graph paper and it still took me like an hour total. I kept messing up...

[Archonic Energy]

It's not really hard when you know that you always enter his room from the bottom-right (so therefore he can only be through one of the top-left doors).

Also, graph paper.

spoken like a Torment Pro.

this spring i found an A3 sheet map of the Rubicon complex...

it brought back some memories

[Driderman]

You guys actually mapped out Rubikon?
Hmm...
Honestly, I always just did the place by trial and error. It isn't that big after all, as far as I remember

[Archonic Energy]

You guys actually mapped out Rubikon?
Hmm...
Honestly, I always just did the place by trial and error. It isn't that big after all, as far as I remember

at it's highers setting it can get quite large...
and all the rooms look the same, so mapping can be considered an essential process.

i love the way that Rubicon is a randomly generated XP mine...

[Yuki Akuma]

Rubikon, on its highest setting, is a nine by nine grid of rooms.

That's eighty-one rooms. All of which you can access, and all of which have random exits. Some are even dead ends.

If you can find Nordom and the wizard in the same random dungeon, you, sir, are a spatial savant.

[Pronounceable]

i love the way that Rubicon is a randomly generated XP mine...

As is Undersigil. And both are extremely boring, repetitive and unimaginative. I love them both.

I think Black Isle was trying to tell us something...

[Archonic Energy]

As is Undersigil. And both are extremely boring, repetitive and unimaginative. I love them both.

I think Black Isle was trying to tell us something...

yes.

everyone likes a bit of Grind to level up a character.

[Shikton]

The spell animations in Torment are pretty. Makes me like the fights. :)

[Charles Phipps]

FYI, I'm at Curst now.

I have a new theory.

Are the Shades possibly the ghosts of Nameless' previous incarnations?

[Driderman]

Rubikon, on its highest setting, is a nine by nine grid of rooms.

That's eighty-one rooms. All of which you can access, and all of which have random exits. Some are even dead ends.

If you can find Nordom and the wizard in the same random dungeon, you, sir, are a spatial savant.

I suppose I'm just a patient man, cause you can only find the wizard on the hardest difficulty if I remember correctly and at least half of the games I've played I've brought Nordom with me and killed the wizard.

[Blayze]

FYI, I'm at Curst now.

I have a new theory.

Are the Shades possibly the ghosts of Nameless' previous incarnations?

I've never managed to get past Ravel myself (Always end up losing interest. Damned non-Hive locales!, but I believe (From what I remember of the game and what I have gleaned from forums and the like) that they are the people who died to take the Nameless One's place, every time he should have died (I believe Ravel gives you a piece of information pertaining to what happens every time TNO snuffs it).

I question some of the logic, since they hunt him down and kill him, thus adding another to their number and not doing much in the grand scheme of things. Unless TTO has an idea in mind for a massive army of Shades, I'm still puzzled somewhat. Or are they driven by hate and are incapable of seeing that their plan is flawed?

[Yuki Akuma]

The Shadows hunt him down and kill him simply because they're insane and hate his guts.

And, yes, they're all the people who died in the Nameless One's place. If you die a lot during the game, Shadows will occasionally hunt you down at night. If you never die, they won't (even though this makes no sense, considering the number of times he's died in the past).

[Driderman]

The Shadows hunt him down and kill him simply because they're insane and hate his guts.

And, yes, they're all the people who died in the Nameless One's place. If you die a lot during the game, Shadows will occasionally hunt you down at night. If you never die, they won't (even though this makes no sense, considering the number of times he's died in the past).

Shadows will attack you at times whether you've died or not, if I remember correctly. As for TTO, his plan is actually to keep TNO incapacited and amnesiac far away from the Fortress Of Regrets, so TTO is free to do whatever it is that he does without interference. I'm somewhat unsure if TTO actually has command over the shadows though

[Yuki Akuma]

Shadows are randomly spawned. If you never die (which, during the completion of the game, is impossible anyway), the chance is very low. The more you die, the more likely a Shadow is to spawn, and if you die several times you might end up spawning several at once...

[Charles Phipps]

And, yes, they're all the people who died in the Nameless One's place. If you die a lot during the game, Shadows will occasionally hunt you down at night.

Ravel was rather vague despite my 25 charisma (thank you Friends). She said they were created by my deaths but didn't explicitly spell out to me "Yes, these people died because you need your life/death mojo from somewhere." I took it as they could in fact be the Nameless One's prior selves.

Unless there's an explicit argument that says otherwise, it's possible the nameless one changes so much because he has other people's souls (where he still keeps his memory).

But yes, at the very least, you've got a lot of deaths from the "Player's Tomb"

And yes, you need to find Ravel quickly or lose all interest. I also had no desire to find the Key to the Maze either without a hint book (the only time i cheated).

Defeating her was Hell though.


If you never die, they won't (even though this makes no sense, considering the number of times he's died in the past).

Perhaps previous Nameless finally had ENOUGH and killed all the ghosts up until that point or stacked them in the Fortress of Regrets like he intended to trap his mortality.

FYI- IS there any way to romance FFG successfully?

[Archonic Energy]

FYI- IS there any way to romance FFG successfully?

firstly, FYI = "for your information" and should be used when giving information not asking for it. :smalltongue:

secondly, to answer your question... no.

[Yuki Akuma]

No, the game is pretty explicitely clear as to what exactly the Shadows are.

Trust me, I've played through the end game all possible ways (I was bored one night), I know what I'm talking about. :smallwink:

And there's no way even Practical managed to kill all the Shadows. When you reach the Fortress, you'll encounter... quite a lot of them.

[Om]

I'm somewhat unsure if TTO actually has command over the shadows thoughHe doesn't have direct control of the Shades. Rather the Fortress of Regrets is one large prison for them with him as the warden. I assume that occasionally he lets a few out in order to hunt down TNO.

[Driderman]

He doesn't have direct control of the Shades. Rather the Fortress of Regrets is one large prison for them with him as the warden. I assume that occasionally he lets a few out in order to hunt down TNO.

Now that you mention it, I think he specifically tells you that at some point

[Yuki Akuma]

I find it funny how much speculation goes on when if you'd just play the game with a high Int/Wis/Cha character, you'd find out all the answers.

[Driderman]

I find it funny how much speculation goes on when if you'd just play the game with a high Int/Wis/Cha character, you'd find out all the answers.

It's still easy to miss something, unless you are very thorough.
I bet a lot of people never got the heart of your former companion Zachariah, the blind archer.

[Yuki Akuma]

It's still easy to miss something, unless you are very thorough.
I bet a lot of people never got the heart of your former companion Zachariah, the blind archer.

I bet a lot of people never got Raise Dead or Stories-Bones-Tell.

[Manticorkscrew]

I did. I understand what to with the heart, but what are you supposed to do with his liver once you've got it? I always end up throwing it away when my inventory gets too full.

[Om]

I bet a lot of people never got the heart of your former companion Zachariah, the blind archer.I'll bite: how?

[Morty]

I heard he can be found in Mortuary(sp?), but I talked to all the zombies using Stories-Bones-Tell with no succes.

[SITB]

In the first floor of the Mortuary, upper left part; you need to learn he is there though. You learn it by asking Dakkon to translate Fell's words and find out he is lying about your companions, and later ask him about them.

[Driderman]

In the first floor of the Mortuary, upper left part; you need to learn he is there though. You learn it by asking Dakkon to translate Fell's words and find out he is lying about your companions, and later ask him about them.

Which, if I remember correctly, requires your game to be patched to work properly.
As for the liver, I never found a use for it even though I carried the damn thing around for the entire game. Several times.

[Pyro]

I didn't even know you could find your old party. I would so go reinstall Planescape just so I could talk to him, but I would have to play almost entirely through it just to talk to this one guy. [/sadness]

[Axl_Rose]

I really enjoyed this game when I played it. Unfortunately there was a particular part of the game that caused it to crash all the time.

I found out then that I required a particular patch to be installed BEFORE the game started and so when I found out I was just like, ah screw it, I don't want to do this crap all over again.

[Driderman]

I didn't even know you could find your old party. I would so go reinstall Planescape just so I could talk to him, but I would have to play almost entirely through it just to talk to this one guy. [/sadness]

Torment is always worth another walkthrough, innit?
It's been a while, but I believe your old party (which was the practical incarnations party) consisted of Deionarra, D'akkon, Zachariah, Morte and some guy who gets killed and only mentioned briefly in the game. So actually, you meet most of your old party if I remember correctly...

[Rawhide]

Thread Necromancy
Bringing a thread back from “the dead.” If a thread has fallen to page three and hasn’t been posted in for a month and a half, don’t post to it. Start a new topic if you want to discuss the subject.