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View Full Version : A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)



theonesin
2010-09-30, 07:22 PM
I'm having some trouble finalizing my character. I want this character (starting at level 8) to focus more on debuffing/disabling enemies, so I've already picked out Entangling Exhalation (to couple with Slow Breath) and Ability Focus: Breath. From there, I can go Human and take Dreadful Wrath (to go along with Terrifying Roar, though I won't actually get that for a few more levels). I can't think of a fourth feat to select here. Or, if anyone has a better racial suggestion, what my third feat would be.

Any ideas? Also, please keep all ideas to things that aren't likely to require DM permission, as I can't really contact him outside of the game sessions. Thanks.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-30, 07:28 PM
Entangling Exhalation + Slow Breath is a combo made in CharOp. Makes for a good lockdown and support character.

Other than that, what else do you want to do other than be the stop sign?

theonesin
2010-09-30, 07:32 PM
Other than that combo, I wanted to go for some fear-inducing invocations (Frightful Presence is the first one I can pick up, but doesn't work with Dreadful Wrath. Only Terrifying Roar in a couple levels does).

The rest of the party consists of a Fighter/Warforged Juggernaut, and a Drow Rogue. Instead of designing my character purely for damage, I wanted to do more battlefield control in order to make my allies' melee skills better.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-30, 07:35 PM
Other than that combo, I wanted to go for some fear-inducing invocations (Frightful Presence is the first one I can pick up, but doesn't work with Dreadful Wrath. Only Terrifying Roar in a couple levels does).

The rest of the party consists of a Fighter/Warforged Juggernaut, and a Drow Rogue. Instead of designing my character purely for damage, I wanted to do more battlefield control in order to make my allies' melee skills better.

My suggestion:

Don't go for Fear effects. Too many things start being immune to them at later levels. Plus, you already have a Will Save or Screwed effect with your Slow Breath. Entangling Exhallation is a Reflex save or Screwed. You need a Fort Save or Screwed. Maybe Nauseating Breath? I'm not familiar with DFA's, but some kind of fort Save or Screwed effect would round out your complement nicely.

Frightful Presence sucks. Almost everything you face will have higher HD than you. Even the mooks. Net sum zero.

Ways to make your area effect stuff 'selective' so you can avoid your allies while punishing opponents? Extra range or radius effect?

theonesin
2010-09-30, 07:45 PM
At my level, I could take Sickening Breath as my 2nd level breath effect (was planning to go with Frost Breath for cold damage though), which sickens for 2 rounds, 1 on a successful Fort save. There's also a Least invocation called Deafening Roar that deafens creatures for 1 hour on a failed Fort save.

As for keeping my allies safe, I'm taking Endure Exposure (Least invocation) which makes them immune to my breath effects.

Zaq
2010-09-30, 08:06 PM
My suggestion:

Don't go for Fear effects. Too many things start being immune to them at later levels. Plus, you already have a Will Save or Screwed effect with your Slow Breath. Entangling Exhallation is a Reflex save or Screwed. You need a Fort Save or Screwed. Maybe Nauseating Breath? I'm not familiar with DFA's, but some kind of fort Save or Screwed effect would round out your complement nicely.

Frightful Presence sucks. Almost everything you face will have higher HD than you. Even the mooks. Net sum zero.

Ways to make your area effect stuff 'selective' so you can avoid your allies while punishing opponents? Extra range or radius effect?

Just a note: Slow Breath is Fortitude Half.

Keld Denar
2010-09-30, 08:10 PM
I'd stay with Frost Breath, honestly. You don't want to fight things that are immune to your breath...ever. No damage = no entangle. There is almost NOTHING immune to both frost and fire, and generally something immune to one is vulnerable to the other. Stay the cource.

I dunno, I generally like Weakening Breath more than I like Slow Breath. Weakening Breath's -6 Str on top of the -2 to hit from Entangling Exhalation results in a -5 to hit. Thats pretty significant. Slow Breath is nice against things that have lots of attacks though, since getting full attacked generally sucks.

What is your other Least Invocation? You should have 2. Endure Exposure + what? See the Unseen is pretty handy, especially if you can get your grubby paws on a Wand of Glitterdust at mid levels. You can see em, you can light em up.

Also, carry a reach weapon. You are proficient with a long spear. You won't ever use it, but just holding it allows you to claim all kinds of fun AoOs. If you do, make it masterwork at least, and screw in a Least Energy Assault Crystal (Fire). Now you have a weapon that does fire damage. This is important. Now pick up the item Dragonscale Cincture from MIC. It does 2 things. It increases the DC of your breath weapon (win!) and if you are wielding a weapon that does the same damage type as your breath weapon, you get +1d6 damage on your breath weapon. DOUBLEWIN! Note that you won't get the extra damage on your Frost Breath, but hey, something is better than nothing!

theonesin
2010-09-30, 08:19 PM
For my second Least invocation, I was mainly considering Magic Insight, though See the Unseen and Aquatic Adaptation were also in mind (it's a nautical-themed game, but I figure Humanoid Shape can likely take care of swimming needs). Though the book says that at each level when a new grade of invocation is learned, you can swap one lower-grade invocation to one of your highest known grade. So I could potentially have 3 Lessers and 1 Least instead of 2 of each.

Oh yeah, and if it helps, we're starting with 30,000GP.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-30, 08:28 PM
Sickened is a worthless penalty, as it is only a -2 to some things. You're wanting lockdowns, Nauseating is a lockdown effect. Sickened is a minor annoyance.

If Slow Breath is a Fort save, then you are doing well by looking at Fear effects. Terrifying Roar will do well, although avoid anything with a HD cap, particularly anything with an HD cap equal to your own HD, as the opponents HD to your HD ratio slides in their favor more and more as the CR goes up.

Blind is another fun status effect which can be great to apply. It lets the rogues sneak attack, since the targets are now flat-footed, due to being blind.

Nauseating, as I said, is a good one. But don't settle for Sickened.

Stun is really good, if you can find a way to apply it.

Paralysis is also really good.

Zaq
2010-09-30, 08:36 PM
Sickened is a worthless penalty, as it is only a -2 to some things. You're wanting lockdowns, Nauseating is a lockdown effect. Sickened is a minor annoyance.

If Slow Breath is a Fort save, then you are doing well by looking at Fear effects. Terrifying Roar will do well, although avoid anything with a HD cap, particularly anything with an HD cap equal to your own HD, as the opponents HD to your HD ratio slides in their favor more and more as the CR goes up.

Blind is another fun status effect which can be great to apply. It lets the rogues sneak attack, since the targets are now flat-footed, due to being blind.

Nauseating, as I said, is a good one. But don't settle for Sickened.

Stun is really good, if you can find a way to apply it.

Paralysis is also really good.

DFAs have in-class access to very few of those.

Anyway, Frightful Presence lacks the HD cap that Terrifying Roar has, so that's a good thing. It's a lesser penalty, but once you've made someone Shaken with it, you can get them Frightened by any one of a number of other ways (vanilla Intimidate, Dreadful Wrath, Daunting Presence...), and they'll stay Frightened for the longer duration (in this case, at least 10 minutes), so not bad. Frightful Presence also gives you an in-class use for your swift actions, which is kind of hard to come by otherwise. It's really not a bad Invocation if you want a CHA-based DFA Just don't overuse it so much that your GM decides to make everything immune to fear. Enough will be immune to fear anyway without a frustrated GM intentionally making it so.

theonesin
2010-09-30, 08:37 PM
Sadly, Terrifying Roar is capped at caster's HD.

As for the other effects you mentioned, there's the Least Invocation "Darkness" that creates magical darkness. Not sure if that's the same as blind.

Don't think I have anything purely from DFA abilities to cause Nauseated or Stun. There's a Paralyzing Breath effect at level 15, though there are some other choices there that I might rather take.

Tukka
2010-09-30, 08:57 PM
For my second Least invocation, I was mainly considering Magic Insight, though See the Unseen and Aquatic Adaptation were also in mind (it's a nautical-themed game, but I figure Humanoid Shape can likely take care of swimming needs).
Magic Insight probably isn't worth getting if you can just buy an artificer's monocle (MIC).

Aquatic Adaptation may be a good one for your campaign. Technically, you can't use a breath weapon while using Humanoid Shape, although many DMs will allow it as a reasonable house rule.

Draconic Knowledge can be handy -- one way to help the party is to know how to fight your enemies.

Though the book says that at each level when a new grade of invocation is learned, you can swap one lower-grade invocation to one of your highest known grade.
What it actually says is: "At any level when a dragonfire adept learns a new invocation, she can replace an invocation she already knows with another of the same or lower grade." So I'm pretty sure you're stuck with the lower grade invocations.

Draz74
2010-09-30, 09:09 PM
One easy feat option is picking up a 3rd Least Invocation with Extra Invocation (Complete Arcane). Probably won't add much to your combat power, but should give you another useful utility spell. (I love Draconic Knowledge, for example.)

theonesin
2010-09-30, 09:38 PM
Also, carry a reach weapon. You are proficient with a long spear. You won't ever use it, but just holding it allows you to claim all kinds of fun AoOs. If you do, make it masterwork at least, and screw in a Least Energy Assault Crystal (Fire). Now you have a weapon that does fire damage. This is important. Now pick up the item Dragonscale Cincture from MIC. It does 2 things. It increases the DC of your breath weapon (win!) and if you are wielding a weapon that does the same damage type as your breath weapon, you get +1d6 damage on your breath weapon. DOUBLEWIN! Note that you won't get the extra damage on your Frost Breath, but hey, something is better than nothing!

While trying to find where the Least Energy Assault Crystals were, I stumbled upon another thread about DFAs and someone mentioned a Dragonfang weapon. Seems to have the same effect as putting one of those crystals on a normal longspear, so could you then make a Dragonfang weapon (fire) and put an Assault Crystal (cold) to benefit from the Dragon Spirit (named this in the MIC) when using either normal breath or Frost Breath?

Draz74
2010-09-30, 09:45 PM
Side note: Keld actually got the Dragon Spirit Cincture's effects backwards. The +1d6 damage is always; the +1 Save DC depends on you holding the right weapon.

You can also buy Gauntlets of Energy Transformation (just 1000 gp IIRC, from MIC) to temporarily change your fiery weapon into a frosty weapon.

theonesin
2010-09-30, 10:22 PM
I could, but that would be more beneficial if I had 3 or more types of elemental breaths, but there are too many other good choices, so I'll only have fire and frost. I think the dragonfang weapon + assault crystal would be cheaper too (though I don't really know how to determine the cost of the dragonfang weapon. The entry just mentions 300gp next to Price).

Back to my original question though, I'm still not sure what feats I should take besides Entangling Exhalation and Ability Focus (breath). I could use a feat to help with Frightful presence, but then I could just use Intimidate for that. I have thought about something simple like Improved Initiative, to allow me a better chance to disable enemies before the fight gets going.

And if it turns out I don't really need a fourth feat that much, what other races would you recommend?

Draz74
2010-09-30, 10:35 PM
I could, but that would be more beneficial if I had 3 or more types of elemental breaths, but there are too many other good choices, so I'll only have fire and frost. I think the dragonfang weapon + assault crystal would be cheaper too (though I don't really know how to determine the cost of the dragonfang weapon. The entry just mentions 300gp next to Price).
Yeah, I recommended the gauntlets because I don't know anything about dragonfang weapons.

Sonic damage breath (at Level 10) is a pretty good one, though.


Back to my original question though, I'm still not sure what feats I should take besides Entangling Exhalation and Ability Focus (breath). I could use a feat to help with Frightful presence, but then I could just use Intimidate for that. I have thought about something simple like Improved Initiative, to allow me a better chance to disable enemies before the fight gets going.
DFAs are surprisingly non-Feat Starved for a Tier 3 class, really. I still like making them Human, though.

Like I suggested before, you can always use Extra Invocation for a little more flexibility.

I also love Draconic Aura (senses) from Dragon Magic. Take advantage of your free Dragonblood subtype! At Level 8 (where you're starting), it's like taking Alertness and half of Improved Initiative in one feat ... and it applies to your entire party. If you're in a party of four, that's like six feats for the price of one. And it will scale to be even better at Levels 13 and 20.

theonesin
2010-09-30, 10:59 PM
The gauntlets you mentioned cannot change a weapon's energy type to Sonic though, so they wouldn't benefit a Sonic-based breath.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-01, 12:02 AM
Empower/Maximize/Quicken SLA are all useful to a DFA

If you are going for a lockdown build, my suggestion is to find at least one 'disable' per save type (i.e. one based on Reflex, one on Fort, and one on Will), that way, no matter what your opponent is, you've probably got something that'll work. It's like Elemental Paper Scissor Rock, only in your favor.

theonesin
2010-10-01, 12:25 AM
So far, it looks like my feat selection is:

Ability Focus(Breath)
Entangling Exhalation
Draconic Aura (Senses)
Extra Invocation

As far as having a save vs. everything, I only have access to vs Fort and vs Will. So unless I could Humanoid Shape into a creature that has a vs Reflex extraordinary attack, I don't know what I could do.

Another quick question: Currently my characters Con is 18 and my Cha 16. Should I put my extra ability points in to Con or Cha, or should I also switch the original scores between them?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-01, 12:31 AM
So far, it looks like my feat selection is:

Ability Focus(Breath)
Entangling Exhalation
Draconic Aura (Senses)
Extra Invocation

As far as having a save vs. everything, I only have access to vs Fort and vs Will. So unless I could Humanoid Shape into a creature that has a vs Reflex extraordinary attack, I don't know what I could do.

Another quick question: Currently my characters Con is 18 and my Cha 16. Should I put my extra ability points in to Con or Cha, or should I also switch the original scores between them?

Cha is the DC's of your Invocations. Con is more hit points. Which ever you feel is more important.

Draz74
2010-10-01, 12:49 AM
The gauntlets you mentioned cannot change a weapon's energy type to Sonic though, so they wouldn't benefit a Sonic-based breath.
True, which is why you should buy a Weapon Crystal that adds 1 Sonic damage to your weapon. Then use other methods (magic weapon, Gauntlets, or dragonfang) to cover your other types of energy damage.


So far, it looks like my feat selection is:

Ability Focus(Breath)
Entangling Exhalation
Draconic Aura (Senses)
Extra Invocation
If you don't really want Extra Invocation, you can fish for other ideas on the Dragonfire Adept Handbook (http://coboard.wikia.com/wiki/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!). But I'm not really very impressed with most of its suggestions. Flyby Attack is worth considering, though (if you take Draconic Flight as your Level 6 Invocation).


As far as having a save vs. everything, I only have access to vs Fort and vs Will. So unless I could Humanoid Shape into a creature that has a vs Reflex extraordinary attack, I don't know what I could do.
Your basic Fire Breath and Frost Breath attacks are Reflex saves. And with Entangling Exhalation, they do more than just damage. So, no worries.


Another quick question: Currently my characters Con is 18 and my Cha 16. Should I put my extra ability points in to Con or Cha, or should I also switch the original scores between them?
Keep focused on CON. CHA is nice, but just having it at 16 and eventually picking up some items to boost it is enough. CON is where the real shizzle is at (i.e. save DCs for your Breath! Hit points are just icing on the cake).

theonesin
2010-10-01, 12:58 AM
First off, the text on the Weapon Crystal doesn't mention Sonic as a potential damage type.

At the game session on Friday, I intend to ask the DM on his thoughts about allowing me to keep my breath weapon while Humanoid Shaped. If he doesn't allow it, should I swap in Draconic Flight instead, and take Flyby Attack instead of Extra Invocation? Or if he does allow me to keep the breath weapon, would Flyby attack still work in Humanoid Shape?

Draz74
2010-10-01, 11:20 AM
First off, the text on the Weapon Crystal doesn't mention Sonic as a potential damage type.
Oh yeah. If you can't get that homebrewed, I guess the only way to get sonic damage on your weapon might be to actually pay for a +1 Screaming weapon.


At the game session on Friday, I intend to ask the DM on his thoughts about allowing me to keep my breath weapon while Humanoid Shaped. If he doesn't allow it, should I swap in Draconic Flight instead, and take Flyby Attack instead of Extra Invocation? Or if he does allow me to keep the breath weapon, would Flyby attack still work in Humanoid Shape?

Up to you (and your DM, on the last question). I'd probably just go with the Extra Invocation.

tyckspoon
2010-10-01, 11:25 AM
I think the dragonfang weapon + assault crystal would be cheaper too (though I don't really know how to determine the cost of the dragonfang weapon. The entry just mentions 300gp next to Price).


It works like the Masterwork component of a weapon's cost, so a Dragonfang weapon would be base cost 600 (300 Dragoncraft + 300 required Masterwork) plus whatever the weapon was.

theonesin
2010-10-01, 02:00 PM
Well I've pretty much got my character done, except for equipment. With my starting 30,000GP, I've bought so far:

Dragon Spirit Cinture - 2,000GP
Dragonfang Longspear (fire) - 605GP
Least Crystal of Energy Assault (cold) - 600GP

I've been looking at future breath effects to see what I might need. At 10th level, I'm taking either Sleep Breath, or Thunder Breath. Both seem very good, but I'm not positive on which one I should take (though I'm leaning more towards Sleep Breath). But if I took Thunder Breath instead, I could get those gauntlets that change a weapon's energy type, and just carry around a longspear with some fire effect and be able to turn it into cold or sonic, which would save me money instead of buying a third weapon/mod to get sonic damage. Edit: Forgot the gauntlets don't allow you to change the energy type to Sonic.

I'm also thinking about my 15th level breath effect. The party in this campaign are pirates (part of a bigger crew), so it wouldn't be a stretch to make my character's alignment be Evil so I could use Fivefold Breath of Tiamat. But if for some reason the DM doesn't let me play an Evil character, what would be the better option then? I could go Good and take Bahamut's Breath, I could go Neutral and still take Tiamat's Breath (but then take 4x my level in damage), or I could take something else like Force Breath.

In any case, I'm not sure what other items to look into, besides an Amulet of Health, and Cloak of Charisma. I would like to be able to use wands, but I'm not sure how that would work if I'm two-handing a longspear all the time.

Keld Denar
2010-10-01, 02:48 PM
You can get a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) and put one wand in there, and you could have a buckler on your arm (won't affect your AoOs) and put another Wand Chamber in there.

If I was you, I'd get a pair of Anklets of Translocation, maybe 2. They are amazing and cheap. For wands, hmmmm, Entangle in one would be a great situational crowd control option. Ray of Enfeeblement would be another ok one. It stacks with Weakening Breath for BBEG crippling. Benign Transposition is another amazing wand as well. Then there's always the fallback Lesser Vigor wand, the best HP/GP recovery consumable in the game, but thats not really a combat wand.

theonesin
2010-10-01, 03:13 PM
Lesser Vigor would probably be helpful since we really don't have a designated healer in the party (the Rogue, being a brand-new player, may not have bought healing potions).

About the buckler though, DFAs have no proficiency with shields. I guess I can still wear one, but I've never played a character who wore stuff they weren't proficient with, so how would that affect me?

tyckspoon
2010-10-01, 04:08 PM
About the buckler though, DFAs have no proficiency with shields. I guess I can still wear one, but I've never played a character who wore stuff they weren't proficient with, so how would that affect me?

You take the Armor Check Penalty to your attack rolls and all Str and Dex-based skill checks/ability checks instead of only taking the ACP on those skills it normally penalizes. Note that a buckler only has a -1 ACP, which is lowered to 0 when you make it Masterwork, which means you basically don't give a dang whether or not you're proficient with it.

lsfreak
2010-10-01, 05:41 PM
Lesser Vigor would probably be helpful since we really don't have a designated healer in the party (the Rogue, being a brand-new player, may not have bought healing potions).

Grab a bunch of lesser vigor. They're the cheapest out-of-combat healing you can get. 550 hit points healed for a mere 750gp. Getting the same amount of healing from potions costs... about 5000gp. Or a staggering 22000gp if you got it through potions of cure serious wounds instead of cure light.

theonesin
2010-10-08, 01:53 PM
I think I've decided that, regardless of whether the DM allows me to use my Breath Weapon during Humanoid Shape or not, I'll still take the invocation. I can just save up for some item that gives me constant flight later if I really want to breathe and fly, but Humanoid Shape just has more versatility to it.

Which brings me to my new question: What are some recommended humanoid monsters to HS into? I've seen some of the choices in the DFA Handbook on Wizards' forum, but it wasn't clear on all the sources they came from. Plus, again, DM-friendly choices (a monster from some random non-Monster Manual book might be off-putting, even though we have no real book limits. Doesn't hurt to be safe). I'm especially looking for anything that can fly, swim, and maybe burrow (could have some useful applications). Or particularly interesting abilities.

Tukka
2010-10-08, 03:07 PM
I don't know of any terrific ones. Looking at the DFA handbook, most of the suggested combos that involve humanoid shape involve drawing from some pretty obscure sources -- Savage Species and Oriental Adventures in particular, neither of which have an official/free update to 3.5 available.

Locathah for swim speed, or merfolk for sexier but slower swim speed.

The only burrow speed I see available according to this list (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=176246) is available from something called an Asabi from Magic of Faerun (I'm guessing that loses points for being setting-specific).

You can get a flight speed from Avarial, which is also setting-specific. Raptorans (Races of the Wild) get a fly speed at 5 HD with some limitations (they can't fly for very long).

Troglodytes get the stench ability, but it can affect your allies.

theonesin
2010-10-08, 03:53 PM
The Locathah will definitely be useful in this campaign due to all the water.

As for the Troglodytes's Stench ability, I need to ask a stupid newbie question: How does the save DC work? d20srd's information on the monster says "DC 13 Fort Save", then goes onto say that it is "Constitution-based". All the information on DCs relate to spells rather than special attacks like this. They seem to suggest a DC is: 10 + Ability Mod. But the standard Troglodyte has 14 Con (+2 mod), so wouldn't its DC be 12? Where's the 13 coming from? I know I'd be using my own Con for this if I Humanoid Shape'd, but I need to know how the DC is calculated.

Keld Denar
2010-10-08, 04:12 PM
Nearly all save DCs in the game are calculated by a formula.

That formula is one of the following:

10 + 1/2 HD + ability (your breath weapon)

10 + class level + ability (Assassin Death Attack)

10 + spell level + ability (all spell casting)

If it doesn't fit into one of those models, I dunno what to tell you.

Your troglodyte example, though, indicates that trogs normally have 2-3 HD. That would mean that their DC is 10 + 1/2 * 2 +2 (Con) or 13. Always round down, so a 3 HD trog would have the same DC as a 2 HD trog.

theonesin
2010-11-15, 12:44 AM
Sort of reviving my old thread with a new question. Sadly the campaign I made this character for never got off the ground (DM disappeared without a word), but after about a month, I've gotten into a new campaign and the DM is letting me play a DFA. We're starting at level 2, but I can still use the information here to build my character up from there.

But onto my question: Is Entangling Exhalation TOO powerful for a level 2 DFA? It fits with exactly what I want my character to be, a battlefield controller, but at least one of the players seems to be put off by the feat and how I can use it whenever I want and as much as I want. I don't know if the feat's effect can be stacked as the description doesn't say it CAN'T, but I never tried to, and if I did I figure it really WOULD be overpowered.

So anyway, thoughts?