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Adrayll
2010-09-30, 08:07 PM
So i'm gonna be playing in a Core only campaign, 32-point buy.

The character I'm trying to make will have decent skill points, helped by high int, decent-ish combat skills, and some minor spellcasting

Here's a simplified version: LN Human
Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 3/Dragon Disciple 7

Note that my DM has waived the requirement of mage hand from Arcane Trickster, and the Evil alignment requirement from Assassin

Here's the full version

Starting Ability Scores: STR 16, DEX 15, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8
Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Dwarven
Final Hit Dice: 2d10+3d4+8d6+7d12
Final Ability Scores: STR 20, DEX 20, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8

Level 1: Rogue
Starting Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
Human Bonus Feat: Power Attack
Skills bought: 4 Decipher Script, 4 Disable Device, 4 Disguise, 4 Escape Artist, 4 Hide, 4 Listen, 4 Move Silently, 4 Open Lock, 4 Search, 4 UMD, 4 Use Rope
Saves (total): FORT +1, REF +4, WILL -1
BAB: +0
Class Abilities granted/improved: 1d6 Sneak Attack, trapfinding

Level 2: Fighter
Fighter Bonus Feat: Quick Draw
Skills bought: 5 Climb, 1 Ride
Saves (total): FORT +3, REF +4, WILL -1
BAB: +1

Level 3: Fighter
Fighter Bonus Feat: Cleave
Feat: Combat Reflexes
Skills bought: 1 Climb, 5 Jump
Saves (total): FORT +4, REF +4, WILL -1
BAB: +2

Level 4: Rogue
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 3 Decipher Script, 3 Disable Device, 3 Hide, 3 Move Silently
Saves (total): FORT +4, REF +6, WILL -1
BAB: +3
Class Abilities granted/improved: Evasion

Level 5: Rogue
Skills bought: 1 Disable Device, 1 Hide, 1 Move Silently, 4 UMD, 3 Escape Artist, 1(cc) Knowledge (arcana)
Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +6, WILL +0
BAB: +4
Class Abilities granted/improved: Sneak Attack 2d6, trap sense +1

Level 6: Assassin
Feat: Blind-fight
Skills bought: 3(cc) Knowledge (Arcana), 1 UMD, 1 Open Locks
Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +8, WILL +0
BAB: +4
Class Abilities granted/improved: Sneak attack 3d6, death attack, poison use, spells
Spells Learned: 1st- True Strike, Obscuring Mist

Level 7: Assassin
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 2 Disable Device, 5 Open Lock
Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +9, WILL +0
BAB: +5
Class Abilities granted/improved: +1 vs. poison, uncanny dodge
Spells Learned: 1st- Disguise Self

Level 8: Assassin
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 5 Search
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +9, WILL +1
BAB: +6
Class Abilities granted/improved: 4d6 sneak attack
Spells Learned: 2nd - invisibility, spider climb

Level 9: Assassin
Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 2 Search, 3 Move Silently
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +10, WILL +1
BAB: +7
Class Abilities granted/improved: +2 vs. poison
Spells Learned: 1st - ghost sound, 2nd - darkness

Level 10: Assassin
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 3 Move Silently, 1 Use Rope
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +10, WILL +1
BAB: +7
Class Abilities granted/improved: 5d6 sneak attack, improved uncanny dodge
Spells Learned: 3rd - deeper darkness, false life

Level 11: Arcane Trickster
Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Knowledge (Arcana)
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +12, WILL +3
BAB: +7
Class Abilities granted/improved: ranged legerdemain 1/day
Spells Learned: 2nd - pass w/o trace 3rd - magic circle against good

Level 12: Arcane Trickster
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Feat: Combat Casting
Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Knowledge (Arcana)
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +14, WILL +4
BAB: +8
Class Abilities granted/improved: 6d6 sneak attack
Spells Learned: 4th - Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility

Level 13: Arcane Trickster
Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Hide
Saves (total): FORT +7, REF +14, WILL +4
BAB: +8
Class Abilities granted/improved: impromtu sneak attack 1/day
Spells Learned: 3rd - deep slumber 4th - Locate Creature

Level 14: Dragon Disciple
Dragon Type: Silver
Skills bought: 6 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +9, REF +14, WILL +6
BAB: +8
Class Abilities granted/improved: Nat. Armor +1, Bonus Spell (4th)

Level 15: Dragon Disciple
Feat: Two-Weapon Defense
Skills bought: 1 Knowledge (Local), 1 Knowledge (Religion), 1 Knowledge (Engineering), 1 Knowledge (Geography), 1 Knowledge (History)
Saves (total): FORT +10, REF +14, WILL +7
BAB: +9
Class Abilities granted/improved: STR +2, Claws and bite, Bonus Spell (2nd)

Level 16: Dragon Disciple
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 1 Knowledge (Nature), 1 Knowledge (Religion), 1 Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), 1 Knowledge (The Planes), 1 Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Saves (total): FORT +10, REF +15, WILL +7
BAB: +10
Class Abilities granted/improved: Breath Weapon 2d8

Level 17: Dragon Disciple
Skills bought: 5 Search, 1 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +11, REF +15, WILL +8
BAB: +11
Class Abilities granted/improved: STR +2, nat. armor +2, Bonus Spell (1st)

Level 18: Dragon Disciple
Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +11, REF +15, WILL +8
BAB: +11
Class Abilities granted/improved: Blindsense 30ft, Bonus Spell (4th)

Level 19: Dragon Disciple
Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +13, REF +16, WILL +9
BAB: +12
Class Abilities granted/improved: CON +2, Bonus Spell (4th)

Level 20: Dragon Disciple
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +13, REF +17, WILL +9
BAB: +13
Class Abilities granted/improved: Breath Weapon 4d8, Nat. Armor +3

Lhurgyof
2010-09-30, 08:35 PM
So i'm gonna be playing in a Core only campaign, 32-point buy.

The character I'm trying to make will have decent skill points, helped by high int, decent-ish combat skills, and some minor spellcasting

Here's a simplified version: LN Human
Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 3/Dragon Disciple 7

Note that my DM has waived the requirement of mage hand from Arcane Trickster, and the Evil alignment requirement from Assassin

Here's the full version

Starting Ability Scores: STR 16, DEX 15, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8
Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Dwarven
Final Hit Dice: 2d10+3d4+8d6+7d12
Final Ability Scores: STR 20, DEX 20, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8

Level 1: Rogue
Starting Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
Human Bonus Feat: Power Attack
Skills bought: 4 Decipher Script, 4 Disable Device, 4 Disguise, 4 Escape Artist, 4 Hide, 4 Listen, 4 Move Silently, 4 Open Lock, 4 Search, 4 UMD, 4 Use Rope
Saves (total): FORT +1, REF +4, WILL -1
BAB: +0
Class Abilities granted/improved: 1d6 Sneak Attack, trapfinding

Level 2: Fighter
Fighter Bonus Feat: Quick Draw
Skills bought: 5 Climb, 1 Ride
Saves (total): FORT +3, REF +4, WILL -1
BAB: +1

Level 3: Fighter
Fighter Bonus Feat: Cleave
Feat: Combat Reflexes
Skills bought: 1 Climb, 5 Jump
Saves (total): FORT +4, REF +4, WILL -1
BAB: +2

Level 4: Rogue
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 3 Decipher Script, 3 Disable Device, 3 Hide, 3 Move Silently
Saves (total): FORT +4, REF +6, WILL -1
BAB: +3
Class Abilities granted/improved: Evasion

Level 5: Rogue
Skills bought: 1 Disable Device, 1 Hide, 1 Move Silently, 4 UMD, 3 Escape Artist, 1(cc) Knowledge (arcana)
Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +6, WILL +0
BAB: +4
Class Abilities granted/improved: Sneak Attack 2d6, trap sense +1

Level 6: Assassin
Feat: Blind-fight
Skills bought: 3(cc) Knowledge (Arcana), 1 UMD, 1 Open Locks
Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +8, WILL +0
BAB: +4
Class Abilities granted/improved: Sneak attack 3d6, death attack, poison use, spells
Spells Learned: 1st- True Strike, Obscuring Mist

Level 7: Assassin
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 2 Disable Device, 5 Open Lock
Saves (total): FORT +5, REF +9, WILL +0
BAB: +5
Class Abilities granted/improved: +1 vs. poison, uncanny dodge
Spells Learned: 1st- Disguise Self

Level 8: Assassin
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 5 Search
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +9, WILL +1
BAB: +6
Class Abilities granted/improved: 4d6 sneak attack
Spells Learned: 2nd - invisibility, spider climb

Level 9: Assassin
Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 2 Search, 3 Move Silently
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +10, WILL +1
BAB: +7
Class Abilities granted/improved: +2 vs. poison
Spells Learned: 1st - ghost sound, 2nd - darkness

Level 10: Assassin
Skills bought: 1 UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 3 Move Silently, 1 Use Rope
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +10, WILL +1
BAB: +7
Class Abilities granted/improved: 5d6 sneak attack, improved uncanny dodge
Spells Learned: 3rd - deeper darkness, false life

Level 11: Arcane Trickster
Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Knowledge (Arcana)
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +12, WILL +3
BAB: +7
Class Abilities granted/improved: ranged legerdemain 1/day
Spells Learned: 2nd - pass w/o trace 3rd - magic circle against good

Level 12: Arcane Trickster
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Feat: Combat Casting
Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Knowledge (Arcana)
Saves (total): FORT +6, REF +14, WILL +4
BAB: +8
Class Abilities granted/improved: 6d6 sneak attack
Spells Learned: 4th - Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility

Level 13: Arcane Trickster
Skills bought: 1(cc) UMD, 1 Disable Device, 1 Open Lock, 1 Search, 1 Move Silently, 2 Hide
Saves (total): FORT +7, REF +14, WILL +4
BAB: +8
Class Abilities granted/improved: impromtu sneak attack 1/day
Spells Learned: 3rd - deep slumber 4th - Locate Creature

Level 14: Dragon Disciple
Dragon Type: Silver
Skills bought: 6 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +9, REF +14, WILL +6
BAB: +8
Class Abilities granted/improved: Nat. Armor +1, Bonus Spell (4th)

Level 15: Dragon Disciple
Feat: Two-Weapon Defense
Skills bought: 1 Knowledge (Local), 1 Knowledge (Religion), 1 Knowledge (Engineering), 1 Knowledge (Geography), 1 Knowledge (History)
Saves (total): FORT +10, REF +14, WILL +7
BAB: +9
Class Abilities granted/improved: STR +2, Claws and bite, Bonus Spell (2nd)

Level 16: Dragon Disciple
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 1 Knowledge (Nature), 1 Knowledge (Religion), 1 Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), 1 Knowledge (The Planes), 1 Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Saves (total): FORT +10, REF +15, WILL +7
BAB: +10
Class Abilities granted/improved: Breath Weapon 2d8

Level 17: Dragon Disciple
Skills bought: 5 Search, 1 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +11, REF +15, WILL +8
BAB: +11
Class Abilities granted/improved: STR +2, nat. armor +2, Bonus Spell (1st)

Level 18: Dragon Disciple
Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +11, REF +15, WILL +8
BAB: +11
Class Abilities granted/improved: Blindsense 30ft, Bonus Spell (4th)

Level 19: Dragon Disciple
Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +13, REF +16, WILL +9
BAB: +12
Class Abilities granted/improved: CON +2, Bonus Spell (4th)

Level 20: Dragon Disciple
Ability Score Increase: DEX
Skills bought: 1 Search, 5 Spellcraft
Saves (total): FORT +13, REF +17, WILL +9
BAB: +13
Class Abilities granted/improved: Breath Weapon 4d8, Nat. Armor +3



It looks pretty good, anything in particular you need help with? :smallconfused:

Shadowleaf
2010-09-30, 09:17 PM
You won't be very effective - choose a role and stick to it. Your Dragon Disciple doesn't help your skillmonkey needs, for example.
Other than the fact that you won't be very effective, you are going to have to decide what to do each round - you don't have time to both use your breath, attack and cast a spell, so you'll have to choose which "type" of character you will act as each round - and your action will be less than on par with a specialized character.
This also goes for feats - TWF and Cleave does not go well together.
An equal level straight Rogue, Wizard or Fighter would tear you apart.

I suggest either going Cleric, and ask if you can get to use the Cloistered Cleric version. 6+int mod skill points, and with the right domains (cough Trickery) you'll have your Hide and Move Silently, spellcasting and good skill points, or go Rogue with UMD for wands.

I guess a Wizard/Rogue/Arcane Trickster with Ray spells would be okay too. You get SA on spells with an attack roll (as long as you apply for a SA as well, of course) - very important to remember.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-30, 09:22 PM
Agreed, you're spreading yourself way too thin. Especially in Core only, it's key to pick a specific role and focus on it.

Rogue/Assassin is adequate - it's Rogue With Magic, always a good thing. Just don't ever waste your turns Death Attacking. Flavor with Fighter 1 or 2 for BAB and feats.

a Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster isn't bad - Ranged Legerdemain makes for some nasty ranged touch sneak attacks.

Dragon Disciple is just a very weak class. Its best use is in a Sorcerer/Barbarian mix, but that's dependent on non-core swift action buffs for maximum effectiveness.

Draz74
2010-09-30, 09:30 PM
Just don't ever waste your turns Death Attacking.

At least, not when combat is already happening. (If you can spend 3 rounds studying an opponent across the table at a fancy banquet, when he has no idea he's about to be attacked, then by all means start the combat with a surprise-round Death Attack.)

The Glyphstone
2010-09-30, 09:32 PM
At least, not when combat is already happening. (If you can spend 3 rounds studying an opponent across the table at a fancy banquet, when he has no idea he's about to be attacked, then by all means start the combat with a surprise-round Death Attack.)

Fair enough. In the rare circumstances where you can build up the three rounds of study out of combat, go for it. But in combat, you'll always do more damage with four consecutive rounds of Sneak Attack damage than you will with waiting to set up a DA.

Draz74
2010-09-30, 09:49 PM
Fair enough. In the rare circumstances where you can build up the three rounds of study out of combat, go for it. But in combat, you'll always do more damage with four consecutive rounds of Sneak Attack damage than you will with waiting to set up a DA.

Absolutely.

Adrayll
2010-09-30, 10:11 PM
Now that I take a second look at it, yeah, i'm spread way too thin. I'm going to go the skill monkey route.
So i'm thinking Rogue and Assassin. Couple of other things; would throwing arcane trickster onto of that help? The ranged legerdemain and etc sound useful in the extreme. Second thing; is TWF effective, or am i better off doing a different style for a combat rogue?

Benly
2010-09-30, 10:34 PM
Now that I take a second look at it, yeah, i'm spread way too thin. I'm going to go the skill monkey route.
So i'm thinking Rogue and Assassin. Couple of other things; would throwing arcane trickster onto of that help? The ranged legerdemain and etc sound useful in the extreme. Second thing; is TWF effective, or am i better off doing a different style for a combat rogue?

Impromptu Sneak Attack is pretty great, but personally I find Hide In Plain Sight sufficiently awesome that I'd strongly lean towards taking Assassin to 8 at least.

Adrayll
2010-09-30, 10:37 PM
Rogue 7/ Assassin 8/Arcane Tricker 5?

Gabe the Bard
2010-09-30, 11:06 PM
Arcane Trickster would work better on a Rogue/Wizard. You don't get enough higher-level spells with an Assassin to make it as effective. Impromptu Sneak Attack is really great if you have rays or touch attacks that you can use from 30-ft, but as an Assassin you will more likely fight in melee, in which case you'll probably get Sneak Attack from flanking anyway.

A straight Rogue/Assassin or a Rogue/Fighter/Assassin will have more HP, better BAB, and the same spells compared to a Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Trickster.

However, if you're going for a skillmonkey, a Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster will have access to a wider range of class skills, including all the Knowledge skills. You'll have more options for magical troubleshooting, and you'll also be able to use a wider range of scrolls and wands without UMD.

HunterOfJello
2010-09-30, 11:28 PM
What level is the game starting at? Your build looked like it was set up for a level 20 character. Are you really starting that high?




I have to throw in a vote for Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster X. You would have some good Int Synergy and be able to focus on Int and Dex as your primary stats. You obviously lose out on 3 spell levels this way, so I'd try to beg your DM to let you take Practiced Spellcaster, but if you're absolutely limited to core, then I can understand.


The Assassin prestige class is obviously better than taking more levels of Rogue past 5, but isn't that great on its own compared to an Arcane Trickster.

~

If you go Arcane Trickster, be sure to grab plenty of battle field control spells along with low level rays. Remember, you can sneak attack with rays by doing ranged touch attacks.

Particle_Man
2010-10-01, 12:43 AM
I'm a KISS kind of guy. Why not go Rogue 20 (max out the skill points, skill monkey!), make sure you max out Use Magic Device, and have a pile of wands handy?

Draz74
2010-10-01, 12:50 AM
I'm a KISS kind of guy. Why not go Rogue 20 (max out the skill points, skill monkey!), make sure you max out Use Magic Device, and have a pile of wands handy?

Because Rogue 20 is the deadest of dead levels?

Benly
2010-10-01, 01:42 AM
..wait, it's simpler to carry a backpack full of every wand you think you'll ever need than to try to learn how to do it yourself?

jpreem
2010-10-01, 03:29 AM
a Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster isn't bad - Ranged Legerdemain makes for some nasty ranged touch sneak attacks.



How do you make a sneak attack with ranged ledgerdemain - isn't the class feature for the skill use only?
I actually have had quite a trouble with the wording of this feature anyway.
As I posted some time ago.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163466&highlight=ranged+legerdemain
Its hard to understand how many sleight of hands per day can you make, and the feature doesn't seem to be better than just having a few mage hands available.

Killer Angel
2010-10-01, 06:19 AM
Because Rogue 20 is the deadest of dead levels?

Pretty much. Even a single level in shadowdancer is far better.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-01, 06:22 AM
How do you make a sneak attack with ranged ledgerdemain - isn't the class feature for the skill use only?
I actually have had quite a trouble with the wording of this feature anyway.
As I posted some time ago.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163466&highlight=ranged+legerdemain
Its hard to understand how many sleight of hands per day can you make, and the feature doesn't seem to be better than just having a few mage hands available.

Wherps. I was getting Ranged Legerdemain and Impromptu Sneak Attack mixed up.:smallconfused:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-01, 10:27 AM
I suggest going Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Assassin 10, I feel ranger set ups nicely for assassinss, with the start of TWF tree for free, the BAB increase is not bad. Also I think it is reasonable to ask your DM to let you add you Favorite Enemy bonus to the DC of Death Attack,, it feats at least fluffwise.

Eldariel
2010-10-01, 10:37 AM
One relatively awesome build for Core-only Rogue is Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10. It gets level 18 Wizard casting over its career and thanks to the Int-focus and going Rogue first, it also gets a crapton of skill points (way more than same build with Sorcerer, for example). Then you can finish off with Loremaster, Archmage or whatever your feats feel like.

Particle_Man
2010-10-01, 01:37 PM
..wait, it's simpler to carry a backpack full of every wand you think you'll ever need than to try to learn how to do it yourself?

Actually, yes, if you also want a skill monkey as the OP said he wanted. The relevant wands/staffs/scrolls and magic items that can carry the same are not too expensive once you are high level, and if you have a good UMD you don't have to worry about what spell list they are on or whether you can learn the spell or not. Plus, you get to keep the 8 skill points per rank for skill monkey stuff which (the OP said he wanted to go the skill monkey route - that generally requires skill points).

And 20th rogue is not totally dead, since you get 8 skill points and +1 BAB. I don't think any other core base class or core prestige class gives 8 skill points, and for core, only the ranger gives both 6 skill points an a +1 BAB together.

Eldariel
2010-10-01, 02:51 PM
Rogue 19/Shadowdancer 1 is definitely better than Rogue 20 in Core. Shadowdancer 2 has some cute abilities too, but the Rogue special ability tends to be more useful. Really, Rogue design is awesome; definitely a class offering something basically all the way (except yes, the 20th level is waste of your time).

Tyndmyr
2010-10-01, 03:22 PM
Rogue 19/Assassin 1 is also viable.

Really, anything is better than a dead level, though.

I find that a single level of assassin, followed by a level of shadowdancer, then back to more levels of rogue is also nice. HIPS faster than you'd get it through straight assassin, no slowing of sneak attack progression, and some nice abilities from dipping assassin.

Adrayll
2010-10-01, 04:45 PM
I'm starting at Lvl 3. Is spiked chain viable as an alternative to TWF?

Eldariel
2010-10-01, 05:53 PM
I'm starting at Lvl 3. Is spiked chain viable as an alternative to TWF?

If you have lots of Strength (in addition to lots of Dex; thus a generous stat array). The maneuvers that interest you with Spiked Chain tend to mesh well with Str. With additional books, Dex-base SC gets better but in Core, if you wanna deal damage, all you want to be doing is applying your Sneak Attack damage as often as possible.

Kusari-Gama is a light reach weapon you could TWF with (it's in DMG Pg. 144) so if you want a Spiked Chainish weapon for TWF, that's a decent option. Reach is always good, after all. That said, the part about TWF you care about is maximizing the number of attacks you get to apply Sneak Attack damage as often as possible, so any option that gets less attacks is unlike to be of interest to you.

Spiked Chain is a great weapon for two-hander as it's reach but threatens adjacent and gets 1.5xStr and works for Trips; basically all a two-hander cares about. For you though, you are unlike to be tripping (no Str for the check), unlike to have enough Strength for 1.5x to help notably and unlike to be using Power Attack (given you lack full BAB) meaning you get nothing but the reach from SC which, while useful, isn't worth a feat and halving your damage output.

Adrayll
2010-10-01, 06:54 PM
Kusari-Gama is a light reach weapon you could TWF with (it's in DMG Pg. 144) so if you want a Spiked Chainish weapon for TWF, that's a decent option. Reach is always good, after all. That said, the part about TWF you care about is maximizing the number of attacks you get to apply Sneak Attack damage as often as possible, so any option that gets less attacks is unlike to be of interest to you.


So two kusari-gama? Or a single-hand weapon and a kusari-gama?

Eldariel
2010-10-01, 07:03 PM
So two kusari-gama? Or a single-hand weapon and a kusari-gama?

If you go Kusari-Gama, go two Kusari-Gamas. Reach is remarkably underwhelming if only one of your weapons has it (kinda defeats the point of being able to attack 10' away if you can't do it efficiently). Besides, Kusari-Gama is way better than every one-handed martial melee weapon if you aren't using Power Attack (which, as a two-weapon fighting non-full bab low-str type, you are not). So if you go far enough to invest a feat in Kusari-Gama, you'll absolutely dual wield them.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-01, 07:09 PM
hmmm I am half tempted to re stat Dusk eclipse taking all this advice into consideration....

Adrayll
2010-10-01, 07:14 PM
So, aside from EWP: Kusari-gama, and the TWF line, what other feats should I get/need?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-01, 07:16 PM
Now that I take a second look at it, yeah, i'm spread way too thin. I'm going to go the skill monkey route.
So i'm thinking Rogue and Assassin. Couple of other things; would throwing arcane trickster onto of that help? The ranged legerdemain and etc sound useful in the extreme. Second thing; is TWF effective, or am i better off doing a different style for a combat rogue?

Your build is pretty nice, just remove Dragon Disciple and go all 10 levels in Arcane Trickster. You keep all the important skills up, you get some magic, and you get some nice tricks.

Or, go Rogue3/Fighter2/Assassin9/Arcane Trickster6. Get HIPS and maxed SA out of Assassin, then go into AT for Ranged Legerdemain and Impromptu Sneak Attack.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-01, 07:19 PM
So, aside from EWP: Kusari-gama, and the TWF line, what other feats should I get/need?

Note, that appart from TWF, the tree isn't that wortwhile, the penalties of ITW and GTWF are incredibly high so unless you find a way to target touch AC (imposible in core to the best of my knowledge) they are not worth it.

Also since you are getting some reach combat reflexes is not bad.

Adrayll
2010-10-01, 07:51 PM
Well damn, now i'm confused? Can someone explain to me why or why not I should take Rogue/Fighter/Assassin/Arcane Trickster, as opposed to pure rogue with one or two little dips?

Eldariel
2010-10-01, 07:52 PM
Note, that appart from TWF, the tree isn't that wortwhile, the penalties of ITW and GTWF are incredibly high so unless you find a way to target touch AC (imposible in core to the best of my knowledge) they are not worth it.

Also since you are getting some reach combat reflexes is not bad.

Given Rogues generally have at the very least Flanking (or flat-footedness) and often bonuses up to Invisibility, hitting with the iteratives is not an issue much of the time, especially with the pathetically low ACs of the SRD monsters. This is doubly true for small Rogues.

Weapon Finesse is a must for most, btw. Unless you go Str focus, you more or less need it and Str-focus is remarkably underwhelming for Rogue without obscene stats. Weapon Finesse enables you to hit with Dex-focus, giving you way better defensive abilities and skill synergies (since Dex-skills are much, much more important than Str-skills which mostly get replaced by item-provided spell effects later on anyways - Sleight of Hand, Tumble, Open Lock, Balance, etc. are all Dex).


Besides, what are you honestly picking up instead in Core? Sure, you can get small skill boosts but TWF damage really comes onto its own at 6 BAB when you get ITWF and Greater Invisibility (or HiPS) becomes a possibility.

Oh, and depending on the path, of course prerequisite feats are worthwhile.

EDIT: To be clear, the feats are bad comparatively of course (one feat to get an extra attack vs. one feat to get an attack at -5!). But you kind of need them for TWF to be a sensible option anyways. It's really a lose-lose. But yeah, for somewhat optimized characters, even in Core, hitting with iteratives is quite doable especially if the party has casters buffing you up.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-01, 07:56 PM
Adrayll: Well I don't see what is the benefit of going arcane trickster over pure assassin, since arcane trickster just gives you SA and spellcasting, while Assssin gives you some good options like increased DC for the Death Attack(useful if you can actually use it), sneak attack, HiPS, the spellcasting and IIRC you get more Skill points as an assassin than as an Arcane trickser.

Edit: Also fighte is not worthwile as it hurts your Skill points, and the BAB you get is not that good, again I will recomend ranger over fighter as you get a bump in will save, you don't loose that many skill points and it enables use of ranger wands

Eldariel: Well I was just speaking from experience though maybe I should have said that.

Eldariel
2010-10-01, 08:00 PM
Eldariel: Well I was just speaking from experience though maybe I should have said that.

I can see it being a problem in party with little cooperation or in a character that did not focus on maximizing their attack stat; as such I can see where you're coming from. However, in a cooperative party and (you can generally provide for yourself later on) with attack stat maxing though, you should be fine.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-01, 08:01 PM
Now that you mention the party might had been the problem... I was the only melee fighter, so I had to rely on flat-footedness to apply SA

ericgrau
2010-10-01, 08:21 PM
Average monster AC scales at a rate of 1.25 per level. Rogues get 0.75 per level plus dex boosts (about 0.25 AB per level). Even so weapon enchantments are still better spent on damage. They need AB badly to keep up with monster AC. Assuming he'll be buffed through the roof is not a safe assumption; better talk to the party caster ahead of time.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-01, 09:57 PM
So two kusari-gama? Or a single-hand weapon and a kusari-gama?

Kusari-gama is a two-handed weapon....

Icewraith
2010-10-01, 10:10 PM
Yeah I, too am wondering how you're supposed to wield two kusari-gamas. Think of it as the ultimate in flexibility for your sneak attacks.

You can attack with both ends so it doesn't impact your damage output, if your target tries to flee you have 10' reach on the chain end for an aoo trip attempt or extra damage. So you'd want ewp, twf, itwf, and maybe combat expertise and imp trip, as well as combat reflexes. Consider a 2-level dip in fighter so you can do all this faster. Shadowdancer would be nice but dodge and mobility are terrible and make this even more feat-heavy.

Eldariel
2010-10-01, 10:50 PM
Kusari-gama is a two-handed weapon....

Kusari-Gama as statted out in D&D is a light weapon. What are you talking about? I even mentioned it's on page 144 in DMG.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 09:57 AM
In Oriental Adventures they are stated as as Large Wepon, since it is 3.0 I am assuming that that is the equivaleĦent to either a two handed weapon or a double weapon.

But since the DMG is of a more recent printing you have to use the DMG version

Lhurgyof
2010-10-02, 10:16 PM
In Oriental Adventures they are stated as as Large Wepon, since it is 3.0 I am assuming that that is the equivaleĦent to either a two handed weapon or a double weapon.

But since the DMG is of a more recent printing you have to use the DMG version

Have you ever SEEN a kusari-gama? How in the hell are you supposed to dual-wield these?:

http://www.monstercommute.com/wp-content/uploads/kusarigama.jpg
http://ninpowisconsin.homestead.com/kusari_gama_op_800x600.jpg

It's a kama WITH a chain on it. The only effective way to wield it is to hold the kama in one hand and the chain in the other. So if you're dual-wielding them, then you're dual weilding kamas, not kusari-gama. It's obviously an error.

Edit: Think of it like a spiked chain, it's a double weapon with reach.

Eldariel
2010-10-02, 10:20 PM
Have you ever SEEN a kusari-gama? How in the hell are you supposed to dual-wield these?:

http://www.monstercommute.com/wp-content/uploads/kusarigama.jpg
http://ninpowisconsin.homestead.com/kusari_gama_op_800x600.jpg

It's a kama WITH a chain on it. The only effective way to wield it is to hold the kama in one hand and the chain in the other. So if you're dual-wielding them, then you're dual weilding kamas, not kusari-gama. It's obviously an error.

That doesn't really matter. Its D&D stats stat it as a light weapon and as such, in this particular game dualwielding it is no issue. It's not like D&D weaponry is overtly accurate in comparison to the contemporary real world weaponry anyways.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-02, 10:22 PM
That doesn't really matter. Its D&D stats stat it as a light weapon and as such, in this particular game dualwielding it is no issue. It's not like D&D weaponry is overtly accurate in comparison to the contemporary real world weaponry anyways.

Does the DMG give a description of the weapon?
I'm looking into it atm, what page is kusari gama on?

Because it's essentially a spiked chain with a kama on them. Dual-wielding them is just ridiculous.

Eldariel
2010-10-02, 10:45 PM
Does the DMG give a description of the weapon?
I'm looking into it atm, what page is kusari gama on?

Because it's essentially a spiked chain with a kama on them. Dual-wielding them is just ridiculous.

Page 144. I mentioned it the first time the weapon was brought up.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-02, 10:47 PM
Page 144. I mentioned it the first time the weapon was brought up.

Just read it.... How does WotC expect you to wield that one handed? I mean, really? Do you hold the weight and swing the kama around? You're more likely to kill yourself than anyone else that way.

Eldariel
2010-10-02, 11:24 PM
Just read it.... How does WotC expect you to wield that one handed? I mean, really? Do you hold the weight and swing the kama around? You're more likely to kill yourself than anyone else that way.

I guess that's what makes it an exotic weapon :smallbiggrin:

Lhurgyof
2010-10-02, 11:32 PM
I guess that's what makes it an exotic weapon :smallbiggrin:

Ha, I guess that could make sense...
Not to derail, though, one should use the Kusari-gama out of the Oriental Adventures, it's much more realistic, and if your DM knows what the weapon is, he may say no.

... or let it go on rule of cool. Depends on the DM.