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VarianArdell
2010-10-01, 05:47 AM
So, I recently discovered Gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm), and have since been going crazy imagining all the combinations you could do. So I ask you, citizens of this forum, what are some amazing class combinations for this amazing variant?

Personally, I am definitely liking Monk/Dragon Shaman.

SilverLeaf167
2010-10-01, 05:51 AM
That would be even more MAD than the Monk already is, because you'd also need Charisma for the Shaman's healing ability.

The best gestalt combinations usually
1. use the same abilities to avoid MAD
2. support the other class in some way
3. allow the character to fill two roles effective
AND, if possible:
4. fit fluff-wise

kestrel404
2010-10-01, 05:52 AM
Right now I'm amused by the idea of a:
Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept 20//Dragon Shaman 5/Dragon Devotee 5/Dragon Disciple 10

If you take a bunch of dragon-related feats, you can be more dragony than a dragon. Also, 4 breath weapons!

Chrono22
2010-10-01, 05:55 AM
Monk/Druid is loads of fun. Especially if the DM lets you ignore the druid alignment restrictions and slap Vow of Poverty on top of it.

Roc Ness
2010-10-01, 06:03 AM
Ranger/Scout//Sorcerer/Swiftblade
^ Trust me, really fun.

If you are allowed to use Pathfinder material, a straight PFRogue//PFPaladin is real good fun.

And of course, martial initiators, factotums, rogues and similar are really fun to use in gestalt.

SPoD
2010-10-01, 06:24 AM
I like scout/warlock, personally. Especially if you take the Fell Flight invocation and the Flyby Attack feat--you can fly down, zap with a skirmish-powered eldritch blast (14d6 at 20th level), then fly back out of reach. Plus, you have a lot of special defenses: evasion, uncanny dodge, damage reduction, energy resistance, a little fast healing, and at the highest levels, permanent freedom of movement.

Of course, you could go rogue/warlock, too. What rogue wouldn't like the ability to use Greater Invisibility at will?

VarianArdell
2010-10-01, 06:33 AM
That would be even more MAD than the Monk already is, because you'd also need Charisma for the Shaman's healing ability.

The best gestalt combinations usually
1. use the same abilities to avoid MAD
2. support the other class in some way
3. allow the character to fill two roles effective
AND, if possible:
4. fit fluff-wise

forgive my lack of brain function, but what is MAD?

Mongoose87
2010-10-01, 06:49 AM
forgive my lack of brain function, but what is MAD?

Multi-Attribute Dependency. It kills, son.

Roc Ness
2010-10-01, 07:18 AM
Multi-Attribute Dependency. It kills, son.

If you didn't understand that, MAD means your character depends too much on different stats. The Monk is MAD because it needs a 4 abilities scores to be effective (Str, Con, Dex, Wis). The Sorcerer isn't MAD because it only really needs one ability score (Cha).

Also, in case it comes up, SAD is single attribute dependency, the opposite of MAD. Examples of SAD would include the Sorcerer, like before.

ranagrande
2010-10-01, 07:24 AM
Archivist//Wizard is a classic.

So is the Paladin//Ranger/Beastmaster Supermount.

Egoist Psion//anything is fun at high levels. Take the Leadership feat and regularly use Fusion with your cohort to become a quadruple gestalt.

A gestalt War Hulk is ridiculous.

Something with more than 20d6 sneak attack could be fun.

Stoneblessed is good for gestalt builds too. You can qualify for it by level 3 and use it to get race/class combos that really shouldn't happen.

Amphetryon
2010-10-01, 07:27 AM
Beguiler//Warblade or Beguiler//Crusader.

Myth
2010-10-01, 07:31 AM
Truenamer/Samurai

Jack_Simth
2010-10-01, 07:31 AM
Monk/Druid is loads of fun. Especially if the DM lets you ignore the druid alignment restrictions and slap Vow of Poverty on top of it.And if he doesn't, replace Monk with Ninja (Complete Adventurer), for much the same effect, and some nifty Wis-powered abilities.

As for the OP....

If you're looking for power, a few Guidelines:
1) Think in terms of Active/Passive combinations, remembering the action economy. You still only have so many actions per round - Sure, the Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper, but in play, you've got a problem: in combat, you get one standard, one swift, and one move action - and that's it. You'll have a bit longer of a duration before you run dry of spells... but you don't actually gain much in practice. Meanwhile, the Paladin//Sorcerer is getting Charisma to Saves, a d10 hit die, and a few Paladin immunities, while the Sorcerer is blasting away with spells.
2) Be aware of power curves, and pair up classes such that you'll be quite useful at all levels. At 2nd level, melee classes such as the Paladin, Barbarian, and Fighter are fairly high on the food chain; at 19th level, full casters such as the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer tend to rule the roost. Skillmonkeys are quite useful at all levels. For growth later on, one side needs to be a full caster, but don't neglect the short-term strengths of the melee-centric classes, either.
3) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. This has always been one of the big problems with Paladins and Monks, but it gets worse in Gestalt. The Cleric//Wizard has a problem: To be effective, he needs a high Int (Arcane spells), a high Wis (Divine spells), a high Con (as he has a small hit die), and a high Dex (he can't use armor due to the Wizard side, so he needs this for AC). That's a problem, as you've only got so many good rolls/points to distribute, and only have so much cash for buying stat boosters. Instead, look for things where one side mitigates the other's requirements, and classes where they have the same primary ability. That Druid//Monk is actually rather decent - Druidic Wildshape reduces the need for Strength and Dex, by a lot, and both have Wisdom as a primary ability (it also fits well under 1 and 2 - Wildshape is effectively passive due to the duration, Most Monk abilities are effectively passive, spells are active).
4) Look for things that complement each other well, and avoid features that conflict with each other. Some things play very, very well together. The Wizard is Int-based, and has nifty, full-casting abilities. At 8th, the Factotum gets an ability which permits additional actions a few times per encounter, based on Int. A Factotum//Wizard can do a PAINFUL amount of blasting, and pretty much slaughter encounters. Synergy: Combining multiple things for very great effect. On the other side of that, you have such things as a Fighter's Heavy Armor Proficiency, and a Wizard's Arcane Spell Failure. If you're making use of the Fighter's Armor, you're not making use of the Wizard's better spells. The two class features conflict with each other - you normally want to avoid that.
5) Check your DM's multiclassing rules and permissable sources. There's a lot of classes that are front-loaded, and will give you most of what you want with just a two-level dip, or a three level dip. That Sorcerer-X//Fighter-2/Paladin-2/Monk-2/Pious Templar-1 (PrC, complete divine), taking Ascetic Mage (Feat, Complete Adventurer), gets Charisma-based casting, Charsiama to saves, Charisma to AC, Evasion, and Mettle. Lots of passive defenses based around his 'primary' class (Sorcerer). However, it's a rather diptastic build. Many DM's will object. Strenuously. Amusingly, if you're human, it doesn't invoke the multi-classing XP penalty, regardless of whether or not you pick up one or two level dips in other classes laster - as you've only got one class that's not within one level of every other class in the build.
6) Check with your DM on how he handles LA/RHD. This is not addressed in the gestalt rules. The most common assumption is that LA and RHD go parallel with class levels on the other side - which means your Phrenic-2/Half-Fey-2/Half-Dragon-3/Paladin-2/Monk-2/Pious Templar-1//Sorcerer-12 now really kicks rear (+10 racial bonus to Charisma, Charisma-based spellcasting, Charisma to saves, Charisma to AC, Evasion, Mettle, and a VERY LARGE number of spell-like abilities... based on Charisma).

Androgeus
2010-10-01, 08:02 AM
how about a Wizard/Mystic Theurge//Archivist/Factotum?

darbythegambler
2010-10-01, 08:03 AM
Gnome Rogue/Barbarian :smallbiggrin: (Warning: DM may be inclined to throw books)

Eloel
2010-10-01, 08:15 AM
Psion//Factotum

Nova. Actually, Supernova.

SilverLeaf167
2010-10-01, 08:21 AM
What does "nova" mean again? :smallconfused:
In game terms, of course.

Radar
2010-10-01, 08:26 AM
how about a Wizard/Mystic Theurge//Archivist/Factotum?
You can't use double progression PrCs in Gestalt - for a good reason too.

Archivist//Wizard is a classic.

(...)
I'd rather go with Psion//Wizard for all the Temporal Acceleration, Synchronity and Schism goodness. If a really need the divine spells, I'd just take levels in Rainbow Servant (that was the one I guess).

Apart from that, Psion//Factotum would have ludicrous ammount of actions per round. I also like the idea of gestalting a Shadowcraft Mage with a Spy Master and other stealth based classes for an ultimate spy build.

edit: go "nova" means to unleash your most earth-shattering spells/powers/abilities in a short period of time - more often then not in one round. You use up a hefty ammount of daily reasources, but your enemies are vaporised thrice-over.

Eloel
2010-10-01, 08:28 AM
What does "nova" mean again? :smallconfused:
In game terms, of course.

Dumping all your potential in a small time.

A psion has a lot of potential (powerpoints). Add to that Schism + Factotum extra actions, and you're likely going to be able to unleash all your PPs in a single round (or 2, at most). Ka-boom.

Also, at some time, I had a Warmage/Rainbow Servant/Geomancer//Paladin/Someotherstuff(probably binder, not sure) build planned. It could cast spontaneously from the Cleric spell list as a swift action.

NeutralAwesome
2010-10-01, 08:29 AM
I always liked the idea of a beguiler/swashbuckler, not optimized but fun as hell. Indiana Jones with magic!

Snake-Aes
2010-10-01, 08:50 AM
(Pathfinder) Changeling Psychic Warrior 20 // Incarnate 20
Pathfinder's Psychic warrior is 3.5 + paths that grant a maneuver and a trance, some skill bonuses and a super sayajin mode capstone. Resilient to low-wealth settings and situations. Stat synergy lets you max con and str, with 16 wis for the caster side. Evil incarnates synergyze particularly well.
Many soulmelds cover for stuff the psychic warrior uses powers for, leaving more space for the Psy to use the more potent short-lived powers. The improved BAB really shows for the incarnate.

Aeshkrau Illumian Fighter 6/SuelArcanamach 4/Spellsword 5/AbjurantChampion 5// Warblade 20
Max str, cha 15, int and con as you see fit. Fighter can be replaced with anything really, but the feat goodies are...good. Focusing on self buffs and no-save stuff lets you "almost dump" cha in favor of str with the Aeshkrau word. The end result is a capable melee combatant (warblade!) with access to several excellent melee buffs, empowered spells. May have to forgo swiftened abjurations every now and then because of boosts, counters and stance shifts.

sonofzeal
2010-10-01, 08:53 AM
You can't use double progression PrCs in Gestalt - for a good reason too.
To be fair, it's only "recommended".

The recommendation I use, instead, is that each side needs to be capable of qualifying for its PrCs separately.

"Wiz3/MT# // Cleric3/???#" wouldn't work, because there's insufficient spellcasting on the left side.

"Wiz3/Cleric3/MT# // Cleric3/Wiz3/???#" would work though, and get full spellcasting, at the price of delayed entry.

Jack Zander
2010-10-01, 09:04 AM
A build I'd like to try out would be Bard 20 // Fighter 2 / Paladin of Slaughter 3 / Dragon Disciple 10 / Barbarian 5

He would melee with a spiked chain and devote most of his feats to that end. Bard spells would mostly be deception and divination based for furthering his chaotic evil schemes. I mostly like it becuase it makes use of dragon disciple, which is a class that it utterly useless outside of gestalt, but completely viable within gestalt. He ends with +20 BAB, +19 Fort, +15 Ref, +19 Will and Cha to saves. He would be kind of MAD, though half-dragon from DD helps with that.

thompur
2010-10-01, 09:04 AM
Warlock14/Hellfire Warlock 3/Uncanny Trickster3//Binder 18/any class 2*. lots of fun.

*Decide which class features you want. Fighter feats, Wizard utility spells,etc.

Tetrasodium
2010-10-01, 09:22 AM
If you are really attached to wizard+armored class, still spell everything is potentially viable & spellsword suddenly looks fairly attractive since you can (depending on how your DM handles it) stack the every other level caster progression with something else that gives every other level progression.

Androgeus
2010-10-01, 09:30 AM
You can't use double progression PrCs in Gestalt - for a good reason too.

meh, it does says they should be prohibited, but that leaves it up to the DM so I'm still allowed to wish
I'd always say you can only gain one level of spell casting for each class at each level

Eloel
2010-10-01, 09:31 AM
*Decide which class features you want. Fighter feats, Wizard utility spells,etc.

That actually sounds like a build idea.
Factotum/Chameleon//Binder

Anything and everything you want to be.

Esser-Z
2010-10-01, 09:32 AM
Totemist//Druid, going into Soul Eater.

Greenish
2010-10-01, 09:40 AM
Rogue (or factotum)//incarnate.

Duskblade//rogue1/wiz4/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster.

Bard9/Virtuoso1/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso8//Barbarian/Rage Mage.

Cleric//Swordsage.

NineThePuma
2010-10-01, 09:49 AM
Rogue/Swashbuckler//Warblade

You need some physical scores, but the Int synergy is awesome.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-01, 10:00 AM
Rogue4/Sublime Way Ranger 16//Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/anything that increases spellcasting levels 5

For great saves, 19 BAB, manoubers with IL 18 (YAY 9 th level manoubers) some SA, Full Wizard casting, great skills, and the goodies that you can get with the last prestige class.

Swooper
2010-10-01, 10:14 AM
I'm a fan of Telepath//Warblade. Use Schism, Hustle and Linked Power to mitigate action dependancy. Take lots of buff powers. Specialize in Diamond Mind, then go to town when you realise psionic focus can be used to take 15 on concentration checks.

I'm playing warlock//binder/KotSS now, going for Hellfire Warlock ASAP. Great fun.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-01, 10:16 AM
I'm a fan of TelepathEgoist//Warblade. Use Schism, Hustle and Linked Power to mitigate action dependancy. Take lots of buff powers. Specialize in Diamond Mind, then go to town when you realise psionic focus can be used to take 15 on concentration checks.

I'm playing warlock//binder/KotSS now, going for Hellfire Warlock ASAP. Great fun.

FTFY:smallwink: Schism is just a feat away and most of the better buffs are on the Egoist list

Morph Bark
2010-10-01, 10:50 AM
Once my group gets back to this sometime and I am allowed to be a player, I plan on going Factotum//Warblade.

In that case I'd also advise the others to use stuff like Duskblade//Wizard/Abjurant Champion, Beguiler//Crusader, something with Archivist OR Artificer (both would be overkill on power, versatility and bookkeeping), Dread Necromancer//Warmage (with cold focus and feats like Lord of Uttercold), Totemist//Druid (possibly with two levels of Swordsage, possibly with Vow of Poverty).

Ravens_cry
2010-10-01, 11:18 AM
Gnome Rogue/Barbarian :smallbiggrin: (Warning: DM may be inclined to throw books)
Why? Thematically it's quirky but fun sounding. I don't see how it's particularity cheesy though, the usual book throwing cause.
I played a CN Gnome Barbarian once. Many bodies with gashes at crotch level or lower were found.
Gestault ideas. Monk//Cleric. Basically, I want to play Cologne, Shampoo from Ranma 1/2's grandmother.
Barbarian//Druid MAD, but a lot of buffs for yourself for a great shamanistic feeling.

ImperiousLeader
2010-10-01, 12:55 PM
Incarnum classes are very effective gestalts as they add a lot of passive benefits.

Incarnate//Artificer - Incarnate's skill boosting soulmelds help those early level UMD checks, and add some immediate combat options when your infusions run dry.

Totemist//Druid - a truly sick number of natural attacks.

Soulborn//Sorcerer - not as effective as the Paladin//Sorcerer combination, but there's a few spell boosting soulmelds that'll help.

Tome
2010-10-01, 01:13 PM
I tend to go with Wizard 20//Factotum 16/Warblade 4 myself. Switching in whatever full casting PrCs I like on the Wizard side of course, occasionally using Psion or Erudite instead of Wizard.

The other build I like is Ranger 12/Scout 8//Monk 2/Ardent 18, using Swift Hunter and Tashalatora. Swift action movement powers (Hustle, Inconstant Location) from Ardent work for triggering Skirmish on the large number of attacks from combining Two-Weapon Fighting and Flurry Of Blows. Just wish I could think of a good way to give it some Tiger Claw Martial Adept-ness.

Snake-Aes
2010-10-01, 01:22 PM
Incarnum classes are very effective gestalts as they add a lot of passive benefits.

Incarnate//Artificer - Incarnate's skill boosting soulmelds help those early level UMD checks, and add some immediate combat options when your infusions run dry.

Totemist//Druid - a truly sick number of natural attacks.

Soulborn//Sorcerer - not as effective as the Paladin//Sorcerer combination, but there's a few spell boosting soulmelds that'll help.

Why would you use a soulborn for anything other than the sake of using a soulborn? O.o
Note: Incarnates, with their 1/2 BAB, build up greater attack bonuses than Soulborns with their full BAB. Soulborn is a fighter that traded all bonus feats for...less than that.

Greenish
2010-10-01, 03:27 PM
Why would you use a soulborn for anything other than the sake of using a soulborn? O.o
Note: Incarnates, with their 1/2 BAB, build up greater attack bonuses than Soulborns with their full BAB. Soulborn is a fighter that traded all bonus feats for...less than that.Incarnates, on the other hand, go well with most everything one can think of (except for alignment restrictions).

Reynard
2010-10-01, 05:10 PM
No mention of Psion//Warblade?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-01, 05:28 PM
Wizard//Warblade has two active sides; while it's powerful, that's frowned upon.

That said, Wizard/Incantatrix//Warblade becomes an absolute monster. Persist every personal arcane buff spell you want (and others with the right feats) using Metamagic Effect and a buffed Spellcraft. What's scarier than a warblade in melee? A flying, polymorphed warblade who attacks touch AC all day!

Elvenoutrider
2010-10-01, 06:20 PM
Maybe not the most effective build but I had a lot of fun with an artificer/monk

gave him flying mithril full plate, magic gauntlets, and multiple scorching ray and fireball wands.

character name - tony stark

Soranar
2010-10-01, 06:56 PM
rule of thumb for gestalt

nearly anything + Factotum or Druid is made of win

but for a fun combo


Monk /Swashbuckler

if you use ToB material it can become a ridiculously powerful fighter type (carmendine monk, martial study + martial stance to gain access to assassin's stance then dashing outlaw to give you a rogue sneak attack progression and finally shadowblade to give you DEX to damage)

DEX to hit
DEX + INT to damage
DEX + INT to AC
all high saves
sneak attack
full BAB and flurry

Eldariel
2010-10-01, 07:30 PM
Wizard//Warblade has two active sides; while it's powerful, that's frowned upon.

It's...really not that simple. Warblade's maneuvers replace your attacks so as long as you pick Strike-type maneuvers (along with few choice counters and things-that-could-be-spells-but-don't-take slots) and play it like a Gish (Arcane Strike, long duration and persistent buffs, few immediate action protections and mobility spells), you'll really have a nice action spread and thanks to Arcane Strike in particular, you can burn a lot of resources in relatively the same actions.

Of course, this gets better with one of the huge winners in Gestalt, Swiftblade, on the Wizard-side for the extra standard action ('cause Warblade = Standard Actions are win in melee and Swiftblade pumps those out) and don't lose caster levels thanks to Wizard plug levels on the other side, while still getting 18th level Initiator's maneuvers. It doesn't hurt that Stances can be constantly active too and e.g. Leading the Charge is immensely powerful on a standard charging Gish shell. As an added bonus, Swiftblade/Warblade is hugely frightening in Dead Magic or AMFs once he can persist Haste thanks to Ex Haste. Basically full Warblade abilities coupled with extra actions, 50% miss chance, some numeric bonuses and so on. And you'll probably have Elusive Target too.


Overall, PrCs that lose casting are a whole lot more viable in Gestalt since instead of losing many scaling levels worth of casting (which exponentially weakens a character), they lose few levels worth of (mostly) static abilities which is a mere numeric loss that doesn't take nearly as much from the PrC to make up with the abilities as it doesn't get worse over levels.

Da Beast
2010-10-01, 09:06 PM
Psion/Elocator//Swift hunter/More psion to mantain manifester level is a build I've been wanting to play for a while now. Elocator can move 10ft with a 5ft step to activate skirmish combined with a few buffs from psion should make you a decent combatant with other powers to add battle field control of whatever. Focus on utility powers and between that and your 6-8 skill points per level + maxed intelligence you should have huge out of combat utility.

Icewraith
2010-10-01, 09:38 PM
Remember that normal multiclassing rules don't work the same way in gestalt!

Instead, the first character class you take on each side counts as a favored class (I'm not sure if it only counts for that side), and the normal racial favored classes are completely bypassed.

So you don't have to be a human to be a Paladin of Tyranny X Rogue 2/Hexblade 3//Sorcerer, or a Rogue 1/ Monk 2/ HExblade 3/Rogue n-6//Sorcerer 5 Prestige Caster CLass n-5, where n is your character level (Minimum h=6). Note that it's important that you take Rogue first (so it counts as your favored class) if you want primarily rogue levels on your side opposite sorcerer, two levels of monk, three of hexblade to avoid ever taking multiclassing penalties, and then straight rogue. You can go hexblade 4 to pick up the unkillable debuffing dark companion from phII but you need to take a third level of monk in order to do so- and monk 3 isn't a whole lot better than monk 2 (unless Ascetic Mage allows you to freely multiclass monk).

Jack_Simth
2010-10-01, 09:54 PM
Remember that normal multiclassing rules don't work the same way in gestalt!

Instead, the first character class you take on each side counts as a favored class (I'm not sure if it only counts for that side), and the normal racial favored classes are completely bypassed.
Ah... got a reference for this?
(unless Ascetic Mage allows you to freely multiclass monk).Freely? No. Just between Monk and Sorcerer (See Complete Adventurer - the feat description includes that).

ImperiousLeader
2010-10-01, 11:23 PM
Why would you use a soulborn for anything other than the sake of using a soulborn? O.o
Note: Incarnates, with their 1/2 BAB, build up greater attack bonuses than Soulborns with their full BAB. Soulborn is a fighter that traded all bonus feats for...less than that.

It's been awhile since I'd read the class, my memory of it being the Incarnum paladin meant I forgot they don't get a CHA to saves option. You're right, there's no reason not to go Incarnate // Sorcerer instead.

dgnslyr
2010-10-01, 11:52 PM
If you didn't understand that, MAD means your character depends too much on different stats. The Monk is MAD because it needs a 4 abilities scores to be effective (Str, Con, Dex, Wis).

I don't get why people say the monk is MAD. Many martial classes need a mental stat as a secondary stat. Warblades, for example, have some abilities that require a bit of INT. It's just that you don't get a whole lot out of being a monk :smallfrown:. Paladin, on the other hand, is MADder than a hatter, needing physical stats + _2_ mental stats.

Jallorn
2010-10-02, 12:08 AM
Why hasn't anyone mentioned StP Erudite//Factotum yet?

Warlock//Anything is a favorite of mine.

Several classes fit there nicely, Sorcerer has good fluff and crunch reasons to be there, Bard or Beguiler are also fun, specially for a diplomancer, Cleric can work, though it gets a little MAD, and Rogue is always awesome. Dread Necro is also fun.


I don't get why people say the monk is MAD. Many martial classes need a mental stat as a secondary stat. Warblades, for example, have some abilities that require a bit of INT. It's just that you don't get a whole lot out of being a monk :smallfrown:. Paladin, on the other hand, is MADder than a hatter, needing physical stats + _2_ mental stats.

I'm putting my response in spoiler because I don't want to turn this into a Monk conversation.
The Monk is MAD. They need Str to hit, or at least to hurt, they need Dex to dodge, Con to be healthy, and Wis to dodge. That's pretty much MAD. Plus, I think they have an ability based off Cha. Paladins may need Wis and Cha, but they can dump Dex, somewhat, since they can at least wear armor, and with the ability to use some spells and magic weapons, the paladin doesn't really need to worry about their Str for damage quite as much.

Rezby
2010-10-02, 12:17 AM
It may not be the best build, but I'm a fan of having a feral illithid (or half-illithid human if you can't convince your DM to drop Racial Hit Dice) with Multiheaded for added lulz to go as a monk/factotum (only up to 8 on this one, to get that ability that lets you take extra actions. The rest can be sorceror or psion or perhaps a class that better complements the fluff of the build). You'd have to make Int your highest base stat due to being dependant upon it and Feral taking it down a bit, but you'd get to charge people then full attack with rending claws and unarmed attack (ie elbow or knee or beard) and brain-eating tentacles (which if grapple successful, brain is then eaten on the following round). And you can then use your extra standard action to make sure you have 4 grappling tentacles on the poor basterd or to buff yourself or make sure they can't escape. Whatever works.

Another build I enjoyed was the wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil (Complete Arcane)/Archmage//monk (for unarmored AC bonus)/saint (Book of Exalted Deeds template that can be added to spectacularly good characters) LA/factotum (because especially a wizard could benefit from extra actions).
What does GitP think of these two builds? Are they sound?

Mongoose87
2010-10-02, 12:37 AM
Why hasn't anyone mentioned StP Erudite//Factotum yet?

Warlock//Anything is a favorite of mine.

Several classes fit there nicely, Sorcerer has good fluff and crunch reasons to be there, Bard or Beguiler are also fun, specially for a diplomancer, Cleric can work, though it gets a little MAD, and Rogue is always awesome. Dread Necro is also fun.



I'm putting my response in spoiler because I don't want to turn this into a Monk conversation.
The Monk is MAD. They need Str to hit, or at least to hurt, they need Dex to dodge, Con to be healthy, and Wis to dodge. That's pretty much MAD. Plus, I think they have an ability based off Cha. Paladins may need Wis and Cha, but they can dump Dex, somewhat, since they can at least wear armor, and with the ability to use some spells and magic weapons, the paladin doesn't really need to worry about their Str for damage quite as much.

You forgot that they need Int, for skill points, as they do not have nearly enough for their list.

Cespenar
2010-10-02, 02:18 AM
While it isn't an "amazing" combination, I would like to play a Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/Enlightened Fist 10/Abjurant Champion 5//Marshal 1/Monk 1/Paladin 4/Sacred Fist 10/Tattooed Monk 4 someday.

Yeah, I know it's silly. *sigh*

The Shadowmind
2010-10-02, 03:20 AM
If human:
Factotum 8/Chameleon2/Totemist 5/Pyshic Warrior 4(Mantle ACF, Practiced Manifester), Binder 1(Improved Binding)///Egosit 11(1st level bonus fear ACF swap for changeling's minor shapeshift ability)//Constructor 9(Expanded knowledge/research for the prerequisites).

Morph Bark
2010-10-02, 04:19 AM
While it isn't an "amazing" combination, I would like to play a Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/Enlightened Fist 10/Abjurant Champion 5//Marshal 1/Monk 1/Paladin 4/Sacred Fist 10/Tattooed Monk 4 someday.

Yeah, I know it's silly. *sigh*

By normal gestalt rules you can't progress two PrCs at once though. Of course, most of the gestalt rules besides "put two classes next to one another" are moreso heavily recommended than required.

Personally, I'd love to try an Artificer//Something psionic/Thrallherd kind of thing, making as many of my followers Artificers, and then start crafting a giant airship of doom together.

Cadian 9th
2010-10-02, 04:36 AM
Factotum//Duskblade.
Yes. This is just awesome. Weapon finesse at 1st level gets you the ability to dump strength, especially with int to damage.

Swordsage//Hit and Run Sneak attack fighter.
Unarmed Swordsage, Shadow Blade. High ini, the ability to capatilize on winning ini, versatile as hell, and tough too.

Hunter Avenger Druid//Monk;
Going with Brutal Throw. Suprisingly good; Ferocity or whirling frenzy, take your pick. Double wis to AC, monk bonus feats (Meh, Toughness or Power attack); Multi-class into totemist to keep your AC climbing.

My 2 cents :smallbiggrin:

Kaje
2010-10-02, 08:10 AM
Any combination of warlock, sorcerer and binder is fun.

Warlock/HfW//Binder means you can take full advantage of Hellfire Warlock without losing out on that 12 invocation and final d6 of Eldritch Blast.

Amphetryon
2010-10-02, 08:15 AM
Warlock/Binder//Paladin of Tyranny 3/X Full BAB 12/KoSS 5

true_shinken
2010-10-02, 09:10 AM
Mystic Ranger//Arcane Swordsage.

OK, that was silly.

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-02, 09:16 AM
Fighter/Barbarian and Barbarian/Barbarian. Because someone needs to be a true meatshield! :smalltongue:

For thos confused about the latter, I'm referring to taking standard Barbarian with one of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157302).

Also, Cleric/Favored Soul for the ultimate in healing and some moderate buffs, and Cleric/Bard for the ultimate in buffs and some moderate healing.

Greenish
2010-10-02, 10:23 AM
Fighter/Barbarian and Barbarian/Barbarian. Because someone needs to be a true meatshield! :smalltongue:

For thos confused about the latter, I'm referring to taking standard Barbarian with one of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157302).A barbarian with ACFs is still a barbarian. You can't gestalt a class with itself.

Prime32
2010-10-02, 11:04 AM
Arcane duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) is a PrC which requires spellcasting to enter, but has poor BAB and doesn't advance your casting. Much better in gestalt

If you can ignore the dual-PrC rules, put swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) on the other side.

Mongoose87
2010-10-02, 01:15 PM
Arcane duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) is a PrC which requires spellcasting to enter, but has poor BAB and doesn't advance your casting. Much better in gestalt

If you can ignore the dual-PrC rules, put swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) on the other side.

I'd try to get Abjurant Champion on the other side, and get those Swiftblade levels opposite something else, to avoid lost CL.

Morph Bark
2010-10-02, 01:27 PM
I'd try to get Abjurant Champion on the other side, and get those Swiftblade levels opposite something else, to avoid lost CL.

Spellsword? It only advances casting half their levels, if I recall right.

Though better might be to just mix in three levels of Duskblade, if you're already an Int-based caster.

Wings of Peace
2010-10-02, 01:42 PM
Arcane duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) is a PrC which requires spellcasting to enter, but has poor BAB and doesn't advance your casting. Much better in gestalt

If you can ignore the dual-PrC rules, put swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) on the other side.

I'd take it even in non-gestalt. You lost 2 BaB but get Dexterous attack at level three which may as well guarantee your power attacker is going to hit all non-concealed targets. Magical Training can easily meet the spellcasting pre-req as well to avoid losing further BaB.

Cogidubnus
2010-10-02, 03:24 PM
Specifically reccomended against by the gestalt guide, but...

Favoured Soul 4/Barbarian X//Sorceror 4/Mystic Theurge X.

You get DR, high HD, enormous variety of spells and number of spell slots, high movement for escaping etc.

Cespenar
2010-10-02, 04:18 PM
Hmm. Would a Druid//Swordsage be able to initiate maneuvers while in wild shape? I'm picturing a Dire Tiger using Raging Mongoose + War Master's Charge and Pouncing with Shock Trooper.

Greenish
2010-10-02, 04:24 PM
Hmm. Would a Druid//Swordsage be able to initiate maneuvers while in wild shape?Yes, there's nothing to prevent that. The toned down version of that would be wildshape ranger//(unarmed) swordsage.

dgnslyr
2010-10-02, 11:35 PM
Yes, there's nothing to prevent that. The toned down version of that would be wildshape ranger//(unarmed) swordsage.

Add kung-fu bears to my list of fears. Unless, of course, it happens to be a kung-fu panda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_panda).

Zore
2010-10-02, 11:40 PM
Dragonfire Adept or Warlock//Sorcerer tend to be surprisingly good when paired together. The invocations mean you don't have to waste spells known on flight or dispel magic and give some nice benefits, especially the Warlock's UMDing abilities and the fallback damage of Eldritch blast/Breath Weapon. You can grab some of the nicer situational spells on your Sorcerer side. Still not as good as straight Wizard, but pretty close and can have a lot of self buffs up.

Cheesy74
2010-10-02, 11:45 PM
For pure melee combat, lion totem barbarian//swordsage is my personal favorite. Pounce, rage (or whirling frenzy depending on the variant), a massive number of maneuvers to choose from, full BAB, all good saves, and a d12 hit die. Not much wrong with that.

Ertwin
2010-10-03, 01:15 AM
I figure if you skip the allignment restrictions, a Barbarian/monk might be fun.

Coidzor
2010-10-03, 02:07 AM
That's what the Chaos Monk variant was invented for. :smallwink:

Mmm, whirling frenzy chaos monk that turns into a bear he gets so angry....

ranagrande
2010-10-03, 02:29 AM
I think a ridiculously multiclassed precision damage specialist would be fun. It would inevitably be a great skillmonkey, and all that extra damage would make it a decent combatant. I'm curious to see how high that could get. 30d6 seems like it should be doable.

Roc Ness
2010-10-03, 03:41 AM
Gestalt Warblade with Rogue, and take the Time Stands Still maneuver. You won't get 30d6 Sneak Attack, but you will get 8 hits of 10d6. :smallbiggrin:

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-03, 04:07 AM
How fun would a druid // warlock be to play?
I've already rolled my stats, [18/15/15/15/14/8] and with such I can suffer a bit of MAD...
I was thinking of having some rogue or scout in there for skillmonkeying, but druid // rogue and I'd be flanking with myself (animal companion,) something akin to masturbatory encounters, but it would give me an excuse to pick up Savage grapple... Druid // scout just seems like it's trying to do everything and does nothing, and warlock // either would make me look like I'm just finding any reason to justify buying that pound of D6's

Morph Bark
2010-10-03, 05:00 AM
Hmm. Would a Druid//Swordsage be able to initiate maneuvers while in wild shape? I'm picturing a Dire Tiger using Raging Mongoose + War Master's Charge and Pouncing with Shock Trooper.

Since it works, it is hence why I think Druid 20//Totemist 18/Swordsage 2 is awesome, and is the best possibible combination to work with Vow of Poverty. Acquire Sainthood if possible.


Gestalt Warblade with Rogue, and take the Time Stands Still maneuver. You won't get 30d6 Sneak Attack, but you will get 8 hits of 10d6. :smallbiggrin:

Gestalt Monk//Warblade with TWF all the way and Time Stands Still? One round, 20 attacks. Add a level of Lion Totem Barbarian on top of Warblade once you're there and take Shock Trooper and the like for maximum fun.

Even better if you get your hands on a scroll of Time Stop. :smallbiggrin:


Add kung-fu bears to my list of fears. Unless, of course, it happens to be a kung-fu panda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_panda).

Funny that, I remember writing a song involving kung fu bears. :smallamused:

Coidzor
2010-10-03, 05:14 AM
I'm not seeing how wildshape is going to really synergize with that. And you can cast or you can blast. And you can get flight as a warlock anyway, and other than utility uses, for combat there's flying or melee monster for druid wildshaping... Maybe with a passive bonuses focus

There's some ability to be a melee-lock, but I'm not sure how well it would work with wild shape... Just doesn't seem to synergize very well to me, but I could be wrong, maybe SLAs are completely unaffected by the whole wildshape thing.

Got great stats for it, and can even afford to have a not-shabby con and dex for your native form.

Of course, a druid//swift-ambusher/hunter or ascetic rogue could be nice as well, since you can always take a big cat form for pounce or a thing with many natural weapons for laying on the d6s.

Eloel
2010-10-03, 05:52 AM
I'm not seeing how wildshape is going to really synergize with that. And you can cast or you can blast. And you can get flight as a warlock anyway, and other than utility uses, for combat there's flying or melee monster for druid wildshaping... Maybe with a passive bonuses focus

There's a certain amount of fun in being a bear that can shoot lazors.

Edit: There's also a certain amount of fun in playing a
Necropolitan Warforged Swordsage//Swashbuckler/Rogue with Daring Outlaw & skill points on Profession(Sailor).
Alignment is chaotic, and most likely evil.

GallóglachMaxim
2010-10-03, 06:42 AM
Following the bear theme: Druid//Psychic Warrior. Throw in Graft Weapon to make Swordbear: The Bear With Swords For Hands. Only needs a few levels of PsyWarr to pull off, leaves levels for something like Warshaper to add extra limbs into it.

Hackulator
2010-10-03, 08:46 AM
Fighter/Dervish on one side and Scout on the other, take the imp skirmish feat. Dervish dance + Skirmish = lots of dead people.

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 11:08 AM
I think a ridiculously multiclassed precision damage specialist would be fun. It would inevitably be a great skillmonkey, and all that extra damage would make it a decent combatant. I'm curious to see how high that could get. 30d6 seems like it should be doable.

Let's see. Swashbuckler 20//Thug 20 with Daring Outlaw has 18d6 sneak attack. Swashckuler 20//Rogue 20 RAW has still 9d6. Of course, Assassin's Stance is an extra +2d6 to each one of those, but pretty expensive feat-wise.

Illumian Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Abjurant Champion 5//Swashbuckler 20
with Daring Outlaw has base sneak attack 13d6 from levels alone, but may also cast Hunter's Eye for a whooping +8d6, costing only a swift action and 2nd level slot. Only needs Daring Outlaw and Master spellthief as feats... also gets Wizard 19 casting (CL 20 for normal spells (20 from master arcanist, -3 from unseen seer, +2 from illumian, +1 master spellthief) and 26 for divinations). With Assassin's Stance (available via Heroics) it's 23d6 sneak attack.

You certainly could get even higher than 30d6, though.
Rogue 3/Spellthief 1/Psionic Rogue 1/Assassin 1/Ronin 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Master of Masks (Assassin Mask) 1/Justiciar of Taiia 1/Shadow Thief of Amn 1/Fang of Sseth 1/Unseen Seer 1 already has +12d6 (you need one of those spell-like granting feats from Complete Arcane to qualify for Unseen Seer, though; other requirements suck even more). If you fill the remaining 7 levels with Rogue, you get +4d6 (for a total of +16d6). Your other side is either Sneak Attack Fighter or Swashbuckler (requiring Daring Outlaw, but getting extra class features) for a total of +25d6.
...hm, I'm thinking that, outside Hunter's Eye abuse, 30d6 is not actually possible with sneak attack only (if you include sudden strike, it becomes a lot easier). With idems, we could easily top that, also.

Eloel
2010-10-03, 11:26 AM
With that much precision damage you -have to- have Penetrating Strike. Or you're screwed vs anything immune to crit/SA.

Also on the SA guy, add in Craven. +20 non-halved damage is great.

Being a halfling gives you +1d6 SA on 1st level on ranged attacks.

You can't get more than 20d6 from levels only, with the above exception. All SA is the same class feature.

true_shinken
2010-10-03, 11:42 AM
You can't get more than 20d6 from levels only, with the above exception. All SA is the same class feature.
You can, it just takes items, Assassin's Stance and Hunter's Eye abuse.

Eloel
2010-10-03, 11:45 AM
You can, it just takes items, Assassin's Stance and Hunter's Eye abuse.


You can't get more than 20d6 from levels only

I probably should've said 'class features' but meh.

Da Beast
2010-10-03, 04:48 PM
Gestalt Warblade with Rogue, and take the Time Stands Still maneuver. You won't get 30d6 Sneak Attack, but you will get 8 hits of 10d6. :smallbiggrin:

Add in two weapon fighting, raging mongoose and haste/speed weapon and you'll have 24 hits of 10d6. Add in craven and set yourself up with storm guard warrior and white raven tactics and you get 24 hits of 10d6+60 *drools a bit*

Edit: While we're at it, why not make those weapons wounding?

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-03, 05:17 PM
Add in two weapon fighting, raging mongoose and haste/speed weapon and you'll have 24 hits of 10d6. Add in craven and set yourself up with storm guard warrior and white raven tactics and you get 24 hits of 10d6+60 *drools a bit*

Edit: While we're at it, why not make those weapons wounding?

While you're at THAT, why not ditch 2d6 for some L ADJ/RHD and drop TWF for Thri-Kreen with MWF... that would be 48 hits of 8d6

NineThePuma
2010-10-03, 05:24 PM
What has a lot of good Int synergy that doesn't have spells? Or psionics?

Aside from Warblade/Factotum//Swashbuckler

Greenish
2010-10-03, 05:27 PM
What has a lot of good Int synergy that doesn't have spells? Or psionics?Skillmonkees. Carmendine Monks.

…Truenamer.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-03, 05:29 PM
Skillmonkey rogues... invisible blade PrC,
Duskblade is technically a spellcaster, but it's more of a fighter with buff spells instead of feets

Greenish
2010-10-03, 05:30 PM
Duskblade is technically a spellcaster, but it's more of a fighter with buff blast spells instead of featsFixed that for you. Duskblade has very few buff spells. (Greater Magic Weapon and, uh, Swift Flight?)

Snake-Aes
2010-10-03, 05:31 PM
What has a lot of good Int synergy that doesn't have spells? Or psionics?

Aside from Warblade/Factotum//Swashbuckler

Define "synergy". Skill points are always there...

NineThePuma
2010-10-03, 05:36 PM
I'm considering a Daring Outlaw//Warblade/Factotum build already; I'm debating what to push further with.

Prime32
2010-10-03, 06:32 PM
What has a lot of good Int synergy that doesn't have spells? Or psionics?

Aside from Warblade/Factotum//Swashbuckler
Make that Warblade/Swashbuckler//Factotum. Swashbuckler is a three-level class.

Morph Bark
2010-10-03, 06:45 PM
What has a lot of good Int synergy that doesn't have spells? Or psionics?

Aside from Warblade/Factotum//Swashbuckler

Artificer. :smallamused:


Make that Warblade/Swashbuckler//Factotum. Swashbuckler is a three-level class.

Getting Swashbuckler up to 3 first seems a better idea, since you'd start with higher initiator level. If you could add another level from another class in there that fits real well, you can go into Warblade 1 and pick several level 2 maneuvers. Yum.

Even if you don't take that extra level it might be good anyway.

sambo.
2010-10-04, 01:23 AM
Side 1: Sorcerer15/Abjurant Champion5 (take archmage if allowed to PrC alongside Arcane Duellist)
Side 2: Paladin2/Arcane Duellist10/insert as much 1-2 level-dip cheese as your lactose tolerance and DM allow (a bit of Barb could be good fun).

i'd choose a thumping great 2h weapon with a big critical threat range, get Improved Critical, Power Attack and Arcane Strike.

you now have a Gish that can throw spells around like a full tier 2 caster and can also whack an AMF around themselves and be a top-notch melee guy and just happens to have ludicrously good saves across the board thanks to Divine Grace (Cha to saves).

at least. that's what i'd build if could find a gestalt game.....