OOTS #749 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[RMS Oceanic]

Hey, at least she's using her sneakiness for a good cause. :smallsmile:

I chuckled.

[Saph]

Return of the 'dark and edgy' Resistance armour. Yay!

And I laughed too. Nice to see Haley doing stuff like this.

[Aragehaor]

"By my calculations twenty-three." Classic V. :smallbiggrin:


Great comic as normal giant, looking forward to the next one.

[Forrestfire]

I like it. I wonder if Tarquin will take Elan to see the gladiator games?

[Shadowcaller]

Just notice how Tarquin referees to Haley as Elan's 'woman' (yes I'm slooow).

[Otter]

Awesome awesome awesome! Thanks Rich for injecting some fun side quest action into the plot. Um, not that the plot isn't fun...see, the plot is lots of fun, and um...adventure makes it more funner! Yeay for funner!

[zmasterofjersey]

Something seriously freaked out Mrs. Tarquin #10, she appeared to be flying out of that room in panel 10.

Love V's comment :smallsmile:

[Stabbey]

I hadn't anticipated this. This could get exciting... and dangerous if she gets caught. What happened to waiting 3 days for Tarquin to spill his info?

[Dinocarl]

I wonder if they'll reconnoiter with Mr Scruffy. I wonder what he's been upto in the dark alleyways of this seedy city?

[Delusion]

V is awesome!

[Puschkin]

I don't know, actually they ARE already on a sidequest. And the order is split up once again. In some way I wish they would just reunite soon and continue with the plot. You know, OOTS tends to get lost in sidequests of sidequests of sidequests and the order scattered around the place - which wouldn't be a bad thing per se but when you have to wait several days or even a week for the next update, it can make you itchy and fuzzy, if you know what I mean.

Then again, Rich said he has outlined the main story arc already entirely, which means there is a definite end. So every sidequest he adds in between does somehow lengthen the lifespan of the comic. And I think we all agree that this is something positive :smallsmile:

[Mastikator]

Personally I hope Tarqin will do something incredibly evil and Elan won't be able to rationalize it away this time.
But I have no expectations that he'll face the truth.

Why is it so hard for some people to accept that maybe their parents aren't of the highest moral caliber?

[Werekat]

Wow, Haley! CG for the win!

And I kind of hope we get to see a duo adventure for Haley and V tri adventure for Haley, V, and Blackwing. They mesh well together, and it should be fun.

[derfenrirwolv]

Hmmmm.. i wonder if we'll see the return of the Invisibility 5 foot radius spell.

[Scarlet Knight]

"Whitesnake"? 12 Gods! I hope she's not referring to what I think she is...oh, Malak... never mind....:smallredface:

[amanamana]

Aw, man... although I love sneaky adventures, that means we'll have to wait some more to see Roy kicking some blue half/dragon tail...:smallfrown:

[TerrickTerran]

Mmmm, this should be a lot of fun. Of course there will be the inevitable being caught and seeing how Tarquin reacts...and Elan's reaction to said reaction should be a lot of fun.

[Robz_defheadz]

Woah, this is the first time the comics actually updated while i was on the site, awesome!

Oh Elan, your naivette is hilarious and tragic at the same time.

[HandofShadows]

Ah Elan, I hope your goodness will keep him going through the reveal about his Father. And is this an indication that V is working over to a good alignment a little? Why do the math otherwise? A great stip as always. :smallbiggrin:

[Needle]

lol @ V's final line :smallbiggrin:

[RickDaily12]

{{Scrubbed}}

Hmm, wonder where THIS is going to go...

[Killer Angel]

Thanks, generic soldier!

eheheh :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Might be that Haley & V will end up in a lot of trouble.

[Roc Ness]

Is it possible to recover from a hangover that fast? I thought they were supposed to last a while...

[DreadArchon]

:smalleek:
:smallbiggrin:

I love how this ends, as if V had come up with the same plan on her own. I briefly forgot that Haley and V are old friends, but in light of that fact, it makes sense for them to be ready for a sudden duo adventure.

Speculation: Tarquin sent his forces to #10's nation, as he said; they were ordered to attack the Free City of Doom, as we speculated, but given special commands to reverse this and save it. Tarquin agreed to tell #10 the password to get the reinforcements to save her city, in exchange for an unwilling marriage.

Also, the Free City of Doom sent her as an ambassador because they knew this would happen.

Edit: Roc Ness: Hangovers are mitigated by not being dehydrated. We didn't see Haley drink much water, but she could have.

[Dr.Epic]

This will end well.

[Starknight]

Yeah new comic. Science Fiction convention in my city this weekend. I am a happy man. Great comic. Whitesnake FTW.

[Shale]

Haley's hangover didn't seem too bad. She woke up groggy and apparently has a headache, but nothing else.

[Malek2991]

Now that's the CG alignment in action :)

[Aurorax]

"Thanks Generic Soldier" Love the Elanisms!

[pendell]

Haley is officially my favorite character. AWESOME!

'Whitesnake?'

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Garwain]

Mrs Tarquin is wearing armour + loincloth? That's an ..... interesting fetish.

[Swooper]

"Whitesnake"? 12 Gods! I hope she's not referring to what I think she is...oh, Malak... never mind....:smallredface:
Oh man, you ruined it for me. I was all "Wait, Elan and Tarquin are Daddy and Whitesnake. But... which is which?' :mitd:

[King of Nowhere]

Rich is really messing up the plot. Will Tarquin betray the oots? Will the oots betray tarquin? Will they get alojng and work together toward the greater goal of protecting the gates? Will Haley and V be the cause for that? What will happen in the arena? Will Roy kill someone? Will Roy have troubles because he refuses to kill someone? What of Gannji and Enor?

I don't think he'll surprise me in a "never saw it coming" way, but surely he already surprised me in a "I have no idea where this is all going" way.

[Kobold-Bard]

Ahh, V rocks :smallbiggrin:

[Blaznak]

Hmmmm... zany hijinx to ensue?

[Vectner]

I think Haley found that hangover cure and got right to work. Or, maybe she was faking all the dunkeness just to throw Elan off, there is an idea. Bluff is a class skill, and lsight of hand could have made it seem like all the beer was going down her throat. hmm thnk on that.

[joela]

Anyone notice that while Elan and Nate are monogamous in their relationships, their dad's a player?

[Scarlet Knight]

Rich is really messing up the plot. Will Tarquin betray the oots? Will the oots betray tarquin? Will they get alojng and work together toward the greater goal of protecting the gates? Will Haley and V be the cause for that? What will happen in the arena? Will Roy kill someone? Will Roy have troubles because he refuses to kill someone? What of Gannji and Enor?

I don't think he'll surprise me in a "never saw it coming" way, but surely he already surprised me in a "I have no idea where this is all going" way.

I'm afraid Haley will get caught, Tarquin will blame Elan ("You're no different than Nale") and Elan will take it out on Haley for ruining his relationship with his father.

[Neopolis]

Hmmm, I wonder what Mrs. Tarquin #10 is so freaked out about...

[Mordaenor]

Off to free the slaves, instead of being good house guests? Wow, Roy's gonna hit the roof when he finds out about this one, and I suspect the arena doesn't even HAVE a roof.

[Mordaenor]

Anyone notice that while Elan and Nate are monogamous in their relationships, their dad's a player?

Tarquin's monogamous. He has only one wife at a time, he just has trouble keeping his wives alive. :smallbiggrin:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Return of the 'dark and edgy' Resistance armour. Yay!

And I laughed too. Nice to see Haley doing stuff like this.
Yeah, the armor caught me off-guard for a bit. I guess I was used to her "old" stuff...

[Gwynfrid]

Love to see the old V-Haley relationship still works perfectly. They're reaching the same conclusion without the need to talk at all. V's way of cutting through it is just great - look at the economy of panels & words.

I'd appreciate it if someone could explain the Whitesnake reference. Like, for dummies. The hints in the above comments are no help. I guess you need to be American and/or have English as your first language to get it.

[TheBlackShadow]

Why is it that I get a simultaneous feeling of "aww, cute :smallredface:" and foreboding upon reading this strip? :smallannoyed:

Really Haley, going behind Elan's back to free some slaves? They might not see eye-to-eye about Tarquin, but I think Elan wouldn't have any problem with rescuing a few slaves. Sure, Roy said to keep quiet, but if she got V on her side then she could get Elan, surely?

[RMS Oceanic]

You know, I think Haley's found her calling once Xykon's been sorted out: Liberation!

[hamishspence]

Love to see the old V-Haley relationship still works perfectly. They're reaching the same conclusion without the need to talk at all. V's way of cutting through it is just great - look at the economy of panels & words.

I'd appreciate it if someone could explain the Whitesnake reference. Like, for dummies. The hints in the above comments are no help. I guess you need to be American and/or have English as your first language to get it.

Malack is white, and a lizardfolk, which are slightly "snaky".

[Grygus]

Love to see the old V-Haley relationship still works perfectly. They're reaching the same conclusion without the need to talk at all. V's way of cutting through it is just great - look at the economy of panels & words.

I'd appreciate it if someone could explain the Whitesnake reference. Like, for dummies. The hints in the above comments are no help. I guess you need to be American and/or have English as your first language to get it.

She is talking about Minister Malack. Whitesnake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitesnake) was a famous rock band in the 1980s.

[Zerkai]

The next Ms. Tarquin #10 freaked out because she just ran into Elan, while leaving Tarquin's bedroom. Interesting note, in the last comic she was in she was sitting at Tarquin's right hand at dinner, Elan at his left.

[Swordpriest]

Hmmm, I wonder what Mrs. Tarquin #10 is so freaked out about...

Presumably, being caught coming out of Tarquin's bedroom by Tarquin's son.

Edit: Drat it!!! Ninja'ed, by a couple of seconds! :smallwink:

[Morquard]

Just notice how Tarquin referees to Haley as Elan's 'woman' (yes I'm slooow).
It's V's gender thats shrowded in mystery not Haley's... she's always been pretty firmly female, so I'm not quite sure what exactly you're getting at.

[Teddy]

Ahh, it's good to see Haley show her chaotic good-ness. And that V actually was on to the plan and didn't frown at it as a waste of time, like old V would have done.

[Dresil]

Maybe we can see a joke about Haley's arrows after V gives her Flame Arrow.

'Ow! Its hot!'
'Ow! Its cold!'

[fibonacciseries]

We've all heard innumerable reasons as to whether or not Haley's father is imprisoned in the EoB, but if we act under the assumption that he is, mightn't she find him while rescuing slaves?

[RMS Oceanic]

We've all heard innumerable reasons as to whether or not Haley's father is imprisoned in the EoB, but if we act under the assumption that he is, mightn't she find him while rescuing slaves?

That would certainly be a possibility.

Of course, it could just be a one panel gag and it's never referenced again, which I think would be hilarious.

[guayec]

whitesnake??? :smalltongue:

[rewinn]

It's V's gender thats shrowded in mystery not Haley's... she's always been pretty firmly female, so I'm not quite sure what exactly you're getting at.
I think the issue with Tarquin referring to Haley as Elan's woman is T's attitude toward romantic partners is somewhat instrumental. He numbers his wives and refers to the love of Elan's life as his "woman". In some people, this might be mere clumsy language but it is consistent with an evil orientation, which has elsewhere been amply demonstrated.

One may wonder at the ambassador's attitude to becoming wife #10, given that you don't really need to be a future psychic to foresee wife #11. She's in a real pickle; her duty to country (city) requires keeping T happy but her rapid exit from Panel 10 may betoken not so much embarrassment at meeting Elan as a futile effort to check out the escape routes.

EDIITED:

whitesnake??? :smalltongue:
While facially it's an appropriate nickname for Maleck, it can also be an gender-oriented endearment. Don't make me draw a picture! I am told that women talk like that among themselves, and V (regardless of actual gender) is the closest thing to a girlfriend Haley has.



We've all heard innumerable reasons as to whether or not Haley's father is imprisoned in the EoB, but if we act under the assumption that he is, mightn't she find him while rescuing slaves?
:elan: DUN-DUN-DUNH! I mean, how awesomely dramatic would THAT be???

[Swordpriest]

We've all heard innumerable reasons as to whether or not Haley's father is imprisoned in the EoB, but if we act under the assumption that he is, mightn't she find him while rescuing slaves?

I kind of assumed from Haley's "No, I meant...." that she has no intention of rescuing slaves at all and is just nosing around. I could be wrong, though.

[Gwynfrid]

Malack is white, and a lizardfolk, which are slightly "snaky".

Is that all there is to it ? I was looking for something more obscure, I guess. I thought Haley was referring to Elan. Does she know for sure what Malack is doing this morning ? I guess it's implied that when Durkon is visiting his library then Malack is there too.

Anyways, thanks.

[hamishspence]

Is that all there is to it ? I was looking for something more obscure, I guess.

There's also this:



Whitesnake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitesnake) was a famous rock band in the 1980s.

which might a a part of it.

[Maryring]

It's panels like that last one that makes me love the VH duo. A competent duo doing good things. I love it.

[Themrys]

Haley and V are so cute together.:smallsmile:
It's good to see that V is back on the good side.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Mrs. Tarquin #10 looks like Tarquin succeeded in screwing her in an extremely uncomfortable place... and I don't mean the back of a Volkswagen.

I wonder what kind of freaky stuff they got up to in there to give her that expression.

[SpekterofDavid]

Haley Is a nice gall. Cute reminder =).

[mucat]

I kind of assumed from Haley's "No, I meant...." that she has no intention of rescuing slaves at all and is just nosing around. I could be wrong, though.
I read it more as "I meant we actually rescue them, not just run the calculation."

[Squark]

I read it more as "I meant we actually rescue them, not just run the calculation."

Yeah, that's how I took that comment. Haley knows V isn't the world's most altruistic person (I'm refering to the Dirt Farmers, not Famlicide)


Anyway, what a wonderful surprise this update was. School was getting quite boring (Seriously. We aren't doing anything. At. All.), so it was nice to find an amusing update like this while I was browsing.

[Tira-chan]

Ugh, Tarquin is a sexist arse. I'm a little surprised he seems so determined to underestimate Haley. After all, she managed to kick his guards' butts pretty bad before she let him capture her. Maybe we'll get to have "Mrs. Tarquin" kill him, just for that little extra bit of karmic justice.

In other news, hurrah for Haley and Vaarsuvius! It's nice to see the Good side of both of them. And a classic Spock literalism from V, too - now all she needs to do is start estimating their chances down to decimal points.

[Jabby]

I love this strip. =)

[plipsig]

Am I just stupid or what? I can't figure out what is the orange thing next to Haley's head in panel 1.

[Kish]

Ice pack, I would guess.

(It actually looks more like a hot water bottle, but I don't think you'd put one of those on your head for a hangover.)

[Callista]

Typical Haley. Can't resist impulsively helping oppressed people... not just because she's probably been holding her anger back for ages about the way they're treated, but because this is a tantalizing challenge for her rogue skills!

You know, this makes me think of how far she's come since we first met her. She started out caring about little more than money and her own family; now she seems to have this huge desire to sneakily undermine any oppressive system she comes across. I'm guessing her time in Azure City changed her outlook somewhat; she seems to be more indiscriminately compassionate now than she used to be.

[Crisis21]

Oh, Haley, Haley, Haley.....

The proper retort to V's answer would have been something like:

:haley: Yeah? Bet we can beat that number.

:haley: Bit of a conservative estimate there V, not feeling confident?

:haley: Please, I've rescued more slaves by myself from under the nose of a better organized army.



Edit: Also, a great title pun. 'Savings and Trust' indeed. :smallbiggrin:

[Kodoz]

How did Haley get her bow back? She lost it in the fight with Enor and Gannji, and then the next time saw it, it was on Roy's back here... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0729.html Where he promptly lost it as he was arrested. So how did Haley suddenly get her Icy Burst bow back?

Edit: I guess Durkon must've taken it with him, it's still there after everyone's left the bar and he comes down, along with the knife. I just never saw him carrying it so didn't think about it, I guess.

[Lighturtle]

I just noticed the woman looks a lot like girl roy. Well, with a tan, but the arena would explain that.

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4128/capturedcran20101001183.pnghttp://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4128/capturedcran20101001183.png

On to something there?

[Stmr5000]

I just noticed the woman looks a lot like girl roy. Well, with a tan, but the arena would explain that.

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4128/capturedcran20101001183.pnghttp://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4128/capturedcran20101001183.png

On to something there?

You are now discovering there are only so many ways to draw a woman of color in a stick figure comic. Not that this is bad, and it applies to pretty much everyone.

[Morph Bark]

I love how Elan loves Roy. :smallbiggrin:

And how V is serious about what she's saying.

[Mr. Snuggles]

"Rescuing" slaves is problematic. What would you do, if you were suddenly set "free" with no job, no money, no relatives, and in a strange Evil country? Freeing slaves would entail a relocation program, education, job training, and so on. We haven't even touched on institutionalization, where slaves become adapted to their condition and freedom is a horror to be avoided. Everyone remember the character "Crooks" from Shawshank Redemption? He committed suicide when faced with freedom. Simply busting chains and throwing people outside the palace would be a death sentence.

Ah, well, who cares about stupid reality, this is a story of fiction, it feels good to make our characters free slaves.

[Lighturtle]

I love how Elan loves Roy. :smallbiggrin:

Well, it seems Elan's father may love Roy too!

[Trebuchet]

I'm a little surprised he seems so determined to underestimate Haley. After all, she managed to kick his guards' butts pretty bad before she let him capture her.

No surprise. Tarquin wants to control Elan, so he would prefer to be the only person Elan trusts and listens to. Haley has been undermining Tarquin to Elan, and Elan loves Haley. Also, Haley is a PC, and Tarquin is an NPC, so she has real potential to get in Tarquin's way.

[blunk]

Haley's hangover didn't seem too bad. She woke up groggy and apparently has a headache, but nothing else.In real life, if there were any slaves who could be saved from the supine position in a bed in a spinning room with the curtains drawn, she'd be all over that.

[Roland Itiative]

I wonder if Haley and V will find Roy and Belkar during their slave liberation streak, or if they'll both be fighting in the Arena at the time... Anyway, great comic!

[Ron Miel]

Is it possible to recover from a hangover that fast? I thought they were supposed to last a while...

She was just pretending so that Elan wouldn't know what she really planned.

[Crisis21]

"Rescuing" slaves is problematic. What would you do, if you were suddenly set "free" with no job, no money, no relatives, and in a strange Evil country? Freeing slaves would entail a relocation program, education, job training, and so on. We haven't even touched on institutionalization, where slaves become adapted to their condition and freedom is a horror to be avoided. Everyone remember the character "Crooks" from Shawshank Redemption? He committed suicide when faced with freedom. Simply busting chains and throwing people outside the palace would be a death sentence.

Ah, well, who cares about stupid reality, this is a story of fiction, it feels good to make our characters free slaves.

There is a key factor you're forgetting. That is the general slave mindset of 'anywhere is better than here', particularly among slaves being beaten and mistreated. They probably aren't worried about all the rest of it right now, and even when faced with the reality you're describing, they will happily take that over the situation they are in now.

My longest running D&D character to date started out as a slave, and was in possibly the darkest and most evil campaign world that didn't include Cthulu (and probably more evil than many that do). He barely got a moments rest from the time of his escape (at level zero no less! He didn't even pick up a class until afterwards) up til his final death (I had to leave the campaign towards the end sadly) and was confronted with pretty much every evil that people are capable of doing and very little good. He had people trying to kill him, demons wanting his soul, a world that thought little of former slaves, and companions that fought amongst themselves almost as much as they fought with their enemies. He never had any place where he was allowed to retire and almost everyone, save for a few party members, willing to interact with him tried to take advantage of him.

He still thought it was far better than being a slave.

[Ron Miel]

I wonder if Haley and V will find Roy and Belkar during their slave liberation streak, or if they'll both be fighting in the Arena at the time... Anyway, great comic!

She's liberating slaves from the palace, not the prison. And anyway, the gladiators are criminals, not slaves. Some of them have probably committed serious crimes.

[Elfin]

Glad to see the 'dark and edgy' armor back. Definitely my favorite of Haley's costumes.

[Kish]

She's liberating slaves from the palace, not the prison. And anyway, the gladiators are criminals, not slaves. Some of them have probably committed serious crimes.
Like not having papers!

[mucat]

She was just pretending so that Elan wouldn't know what she really planned.

I don't think she's trying to deceive Elan. The opportunity came up -- Elan is keeping Tarquin busy, Durkon is keeping Malak busy -- so she grabbed it. Elan may be in denial about his dad, but he still knows the country is evil, and wouldn't be against a side mission of liberation.

I doubt this will cause some traumatic split between Elan and his dad either. Tarquin understands that his son is good-aligned; hell, half the dramatic tropes he's reveling in right now are based on an "Evil Father / Good Son" dynamic. If Haley wants to free a few slaves, it's all in good fun; same as when she killed a few of his soldiers. I expect that Tarquin will betray Elan, but only when it's dramatically appropriate, not because he's upset that Chaotic Good Girlfriend is Chaotic Good.

If the slave mission does turn out to be a one-panel joke that doesn't further impact the plot, it would be great to have a guard in the packground of a panel at some point, explaining to his officer, "Yes, sir. Twenty-three of them are missing," while V looks smug. :smallsmile:

[sockmonkey]

"Rescuing" slaves is problematic. What would you do, if you were suddenly set "free" with no job, no money, no relatives, and in a strange Evil country? Freeing slaves would entail a relocation program, education, job training, and so on. We haven't even touched on institutionalization, where slaves become adapted to their condition and freedom is a horror to be avoided. Everyone remember the character "Crooks" from Shawshank Redemption? He committed suicide when faced with freedom. Simply busting chains and throwing people outside the palace would be a death sentence.

Ah, well, who cares about stupid reality, this is a story of fiction, it feels good to make our characters free slaves.
I think his name was Brooks, actually. In any case, he lived in a 20th century prison. That's rather better than being a slave in the dark ages.
Anyhow, regarding Haley's lack of a suitable opening pun, one possibility would have been "My head feels like someone psioned in it."

[blunk]

You are now discovering there are only so many ways to draw a woman of color in a stick figure comic.but everyone in the comic has a color :confused:

[rewinn]

I just noticed the woman looks a lot like girl roy. Well, with a tan, but the arena would explain that.

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4128/capturedcran20101001183.pnghttp://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4128/capturedcran20101001183.png

On to something there?

A) Girard Draketooth's disguising himself as Roy's hitherto unknown sister from Eugene's adventuring days!

or

B) They have nothing in common but a round face and a skin color. Girl Roy is a fine figure of a woman, but at least two pixels chunkier than the Ambassador, which would be natural considering their relative strengths.

[Swordpriest]

Well, I can see generational slaves having a hard time getting used to being free. Someone who was picked up 8 months ago for littering and sentenced to lifetime slavery, however, still probably has all their life skills. I doubt they'd feel anything but relief at escaping -- Spartacus didn't commit suicide, even if his strategic planning left something to be desired.

With that said, they'd better get out of sight fast, though. A lot of slave-holding societies have problems with bandit groups made up of escaped slaves -- the Romans definitely had trouble with that in between the Servile Wars. So there are presumably either countryside bandits or city gangs made up of escaped slaves around ....

[Shale]

but everyone in the comic has a color :confused:

Indeed!

Also, *points to sig*

[blunk]

Indeed!

Also, *points to sig*Nolo contendere. Even if I can grind an axe here, it's the wrong place to swing it.

[homersolo]

Hmmm, I wonder what Mrs. Tarquin #10 is so freaked out about...

In college, it was called the Walk of Shame.

[blackjack217]

but everyone in the comic has a color :confused:
Is that sarcasm or do you want to know American ethnic terminology? \

[Jeriah]

I love Elan's dad's manly chest hair.

[Grendus]

How did Haley get her bow back? She lost it in the fight with Enor and Gannji, and then the next time saw it, it was on Roy's back here... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0729.html Where he promptly lost it as he was arrested. So how did Haley suddenly get her Icy Burst bow back?

Edit: I guess Durkon must've taken it with him, it's still there after everyone's left the bar and he comes down, along with the knife. I just never saw him carrying it so didn't think about it, I guess.

Which is strange, considering Rich was very careful to show Roy carrying both Haley's bow and knife.

In some ways I was a little disappointed, I really wanted to know more about what's going on with Roy and Belkar. On the flipside - SIDEQUEST!!! WOOHOO!!!

[Belsirk]

No doubts... "Lawful Neutral is the best Alignment because you don't cause problem on Evil empires neither Good ones " :smallbiggrin:

By the way, good comic and good sneaky free-slave !

P.d. that was trying to make a joke on the "Alignment description from the Player handbook, please don't teach me why isn't the best Alignment :smalltongue:

[Crisis21]

Which is strange, considering Rich was very careful to show Roy carrying both Haley's bow and knife.

In some ways I was a little disappointed, I really wanted to know more about what's going on with Roy and Belkar. On the flipside - SIDEQUEST!!! WOOHOO!!!

Not strange at all. The bow and dagger were both left behind at the bar (seen in panel five of comic #732 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html)), along with Mr. Scruffy, when Roy and Belkar were arrested. Obviously Durkon collected them as well and returned them to Haley when they met up.

Edit: Speaking of Comic #732, Durkon got papers for 30 strips, as stated in the last panel. As of this latest strip, we've gone through 17 of the 30 he's legal for. I wonder if he'll need to get his papers renewed?

[Kish]

I'm surprised that no one that I've seen has yet commented that if Tarquin's seriously thinking about marrying the ambassador from the Free City of Doom, that makes it a lot more likely that he genuinely sent Empire of Blood forces to reinforce the Free City of Doom against the Empire of Tears.

[Adeptus]

Go ninja-Haley!

[137beth]

Less than V's prediction: they'll be caught and cause trouble.

[Wierdkid20]

Speaking of Comic #732, Durkon got papers for 30 strips, as stated in the last panel. As of this latest strip, we've gone through 17 of the 30 he's legal for. I wonder if he'll need to get his papers renewed?

I was under the impression that the Roy and Belkar bits were happening simultaneously to the rest of the group but that's me.

[Hrairoo]

awesome! the rebel leader haley is back! i like how v just jumps onboard with the plan...

[JonestheSpy]

Aweome first line.

Psiony stuff...

[Amused]

I feel foolish but I don't understand how the title of the comic relates to the comment. :smalltongue:

[imany]

What the heck is Mrs Tarquin #10 holding in her hand? An egg?

[Rotipher]

Which is strange, considering Rich was very careful to show Roy carrying both Haley's bow and knife.

A human fighter carrying a bow and knife isn't especially conspicuous. A dwarf cleric hauling around a bow is more likely to cause comment, as it's a cross-class weapon that few dwarves learn to use.

[Rotipher]

What the heck is Mrs Tarquin #10 holding in her hand? An egg?

I think that's supposed to be the doorknob.

[Rolan]

I feel foolish but I don't understand how the title of the comic relates to the comment. :smalltongue:

It's very literal:
Savings refers to the slaves being freed
Trust refers to the stuff between Haley and Elan

Together "savings and trust" is a phrase you see in names of banks.

[TheJayPhoenix]

So was Haley actually hung over at all or was she just being sneaky knowing that she was going to go and have fun freeing slaves later?

Loved V's answer of 'twenty three' ... wonder if she knows the meaning of the word rhetorical?

[Crisis21]

A human fighter carrying a bow and knife isn't especially conspicuous. A dwarf cleric hauling around a bow is more likely to cause comment, as it's a cross-class weapon that few dwarves learn to use.

They were also left at the inn when Roy was arrested, much like Mr. Scruffy was.


I was under the impression that the Roy and Belkar bits were happening simultaneously to the rest of the group but that's me.

I'm pretty sure that they are, but the exact words '30 strips' were used, and I don't think that the empire would be too picky over whether Durkon was in all 30 himself. I took it to mean '30 strips from this strip', and I'm reasonably sure that's how Rich meant it as they were referencing 'the current plotline' in regards to how long Durkon would need said papers. The plotline includes the events happening with both groups, not just one.


Loved V's answer of 'twenty three' ... wonder if she knows the meaning of the word rhetorical?

Given how much rhetoric V spouts on average, how would V not know what the word rhetorical meant?

[Dr.Epic]

Anyone else notice Haley's an 8-bit Nintendo game character in this comic? When she switches the direction she's looking in the overlapping side of her robe and knot in her belt switch sides.

[Mr. Scaly]

Welp, five bucks says that Haley's spree of good guyism gets them all up the creek without a paddle.

[Swordpriest]

I think that's supposed to be the doorknob.

Considering it's still there when Tarquin emerges, I think that your thesis is on solid ground. :smallwink:

[Sengoku]

Hmmm, I wonder what Mrs. Tarquin #10 is so freaked out about...

I guess the fact she was in such a hurry was not because of what happened between her and Tarquin, something she might have known and possibly agreed to, I think the reason must be the 'implications' of that in her foreesable future.

Probably she was told by him that sleeping with Tarquin means marrying Tarquin, and she must have thought of the average lifespan of T's wives, to the point she dressed so hastily to put on her armor before her underwear.

Edit: No, I checked, she was dressed that way even during the dinner. The reason why she fled, however, I still think to be something like greeting her family for the last time.

[Callista]

I think Haley will have no trouble finding help for any slaves she manages to convince to escape and sneak away with.

This is a country with a lot of Humans in it... humans, as in "Usually True Neutral" humans. Meaning that a sizable fraction will be Chaotic Good, like Haley, or Neutral Good. (Heck, if the slavery is as bad as it was in the US before the Civil war, even the LGs will get involved. They did here. Quakers, for heaven's sake; can you get any more LG?) In any case, that means it's almost certain that there exist, in this city, people who are willing to take in and help escaped slaves get out of the city. And Haley only needs to make a few Gather Information checks to find them--maybe not even that, if the slaves know who those helpful people are. It's not like this is a city of drow or orcs or something, where might makes right and the average commoner kicks puppies and eats babies. These are humans, and many of them are probably just as PO'd about the state of things as Haley seems to be.

[Amused]

It's very literal:
Savings refers to the slaves being freed
Trust refers to the stuff between Haley and Elan

Together "savings and trust" is a phrase you see in names of banks.


Ah! Alright I suppose that makes sense, but I don't think I would have ever thought of it.

Thanks for the clarification!

[Kish]

I think Haley will have no trouble finding help for any slaves she manages to convince to escape and sneak away with.

This is a country with a lot of Humans in it... humans, as in "Usually True Neutral" humans.

This post seems to hinge on a belief that "X race is Usually X Alignment" translates to "X race will be Usually X Alignment in each individual area where you find them" which isn't supported in D&D. Most human cities in published material are thoroughly few-alignment-centric, unless they're designed to be "quest hubs/adventurer bases."

[Mirrinus]

Huh, how amusing. I was just thinking about the whole "future psychic" thing before reading this page. I'm very happy to see that pop up again.

[Darthteej]

I wonder if the ambassador was running away from Elan, after what happened the last time someone talked to him. Unlikely, but possible.

[Shadowcaller]

It's V's gender thats shrowded in mystery not Haley's... she's always been pretty firmly female, so I'm not quite sure what exactly you're getting at.

I mean it sounds pretty sexist to call her that instead of her name, or maybe that's just me.

[MonkeyBusiness]

:vaarsuvius: "Just get your stuff."

:smallamused:

[Boogastreehouse]

Anyone else notice Haley's an 8-bit Nintendo game character in this comic? When she switches the direction she's looking in the overlapping side of her robe and knot in her belt switch sides.

She's always been like that, as referenced here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html), in panel 7.

[Arrowstorm122]

Personally I hope Tarqin will do something incredibly evil and Elan won't be able to rationalize it away this time.
But I have no expectations that he'll face the truth.

Why is it so hard for some people to accept that maybe their parents aren't of the highest moral caliber?

Elan may have it hard with it because he dont want to face the fact that he got no one in his family which is good, except this mother, which we never seen live, not even in book 0. poor Elan :smallfrown:

[Arrowstorm122]

whats the thing on Tarquins breast? doesnt seems like a normal tattoo. :smallconfused:
could it be breast-hair? havent seen anyone else than Tarquin with it then.

[The MunchKING]

I kind of assumed from Haley's "No, I meant...." that she has no intention of rescuing slaves at all and is just nosing around. I could be wrong, though.

Sounded to me more like she thought V was only interested in it as an academic question.

"Let's see how many we can save!"

"We can save 23. There, your question is answered."

"No I meant lets go actually SAVE them."

[Swordpriest]

I mean it sounds pretty sexist to call her that instead of her name, or maybe that's just me.

I don't know, I refer to my wife as my woman sometimes, and she refers to me as her man. So I can't really say that it's "sexist" in my book. Now, if he'd said "your bimbo," that would have been a bit different .... :smallbiggrin:

[malloyd]

Probably she was told by him that sleeping with Tarquin means marrying Tarquin, and she must have thought of the average lifespan of T's wives, to the point she dressed so hastily to put on her armor before her underwear.

What makes you think their lifespan is bad? If he's only on number 10, he's apparently averaging 2 or 3 years between them. And he divorces Elan's mom after all, rather than arrange her death. It can't be hard to arrange a divorce when you are the power behind the throne.

[dogmac]

So, what were the bets on one of the old gladiators being Haley's Dad?

High??

[Gd8908]

Behold people: a continuation of the sidequest that stemmed of the sidequest they got with the sidequest that guy from the other sidequest gave them. Wow...The main plot seems more like the sidequest now.

[Morgan Wick]

:smallconfused: Surely even Elan should be asking why Haley isn't coming along?

I see this ending with Durkon selling Haley, and maybe V, out and at least trying to convince Elan to do the same, resulting in THEM being thrown into the arena. Alternately, or perhaps just before that:

:roy:: What are you doing here??? I thought I said not to break us out until we had information on Girard.
:haley:: Roy, I don't trust Elan's father. Everything about this place screams evil, and he doesn't come across to me as any different. I think the reason why he won't tell us anything about Girard is because he had some thing planned for the festival.
:roy:: And you're willing to jeopardize your relationship with him by breaking us out, thus GUARANTEEING he'll have something nasty for us AND that we won't learn anything about Girard? I'll be the first to observe how much of a craphouse this place is, but even given that, I'd still bet he's willing to do a favor for Elan. Perhaps he's testing you to make sure you don't do something like, say, THIS? I know that was the first thing that popped into my mind when I heard from V. I SPECIFICALLY asked for you not to rock the boat and to be good guests, and you do this?
:haley:: And if he threw us all into the arena anyway, Roy? Maybe even forced us to fight each other? What then? Tarquin doesn't even know you're with me right now - heck, I converted to Thor to prevent him from connecting Durkon to me and Elan. I say, let's get out of here while the getting's good.
:roy:: I'm sorry, Haley, I'd rather take even a slim chance about learning something about Girard to no chance. We've gotten out of trouble before, we could get out of any trouble he could throw us into. You've had trust issues before, but this is ridiculous. Sigh... but you've probably screwed us over anyway, and I wasn't looking forward to fighting in the arena, so...
:belkar:: What?? But I WAS looking forward to fighting in the arena!

To put this in perspective, this diversion started around 710-712... and we're a strip away from 750. And Durkon in 732 said it would go another 20-30 strips...

[Nimrod's Son]

whats the thing on Tarquins breast? doesnt seems like a normal tattoo. :smallconfused:
could it be breast-hair? havent seen anyone else than Tarquin with it then.
Yeah, he's got a hairy chest. He's not the first. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html)

[whitelaughter]

I'd appreciate it if someone could explain the Whitesnake reference. .

It's moderately subtle pop culture - the band Whitesnake had a hit "dancing girls" with the most famous line being "dance for your daddy all night"

[Raven777]

Now Haley's just being Stupid Good :'(

[geekwraith]

It's very literal:
Savings refers to the slaves being freed
Trust refers to the stuff between Haley and Elan

Together "savings and trust" is a phrase you see in names of banks.

Which also relates to Haley. :smallamused:

[Crisis21]

What makes you think their lifespan is bad? If he's only on number 10, he's apparently averaging 2 or 3 years between them. And he divorces Elan's mom after all, rather than arrange her death. It can't be hard to arrange a divorce when you are the power behind the throne.

It can't be that hard to arrange an 'accident' either.

[Kish]

:smallconfused: Surely even Elan should be asking why Haley isn't coming along?

He expects her to stay in bed with her hangover. He said that.


I see this ending with Durkon selling Haley, and maybe V, out and at least trying to convince Elan to do the same,

What.

[MarkusWolfe]

Personally I hope Tarqin will do something incredibly evil and Elan won't be able to rationalize it away this time.
But I have no expectations that he'll face the truth.

Why is it so hard for some people to accept that maybe their parents aren't of the highest moral caliber?

Ever heard of Old Kjellmir Bloodskull? Neutral Evil character, worked with a mostly good aligned party. The paladin did not fall for working with him; indeed, the paladin believed that he would be more likely to fall if he did not find some way to harness his powers for good. Since Kjellmir was only interested in obtaining power for himself, he had no problems working with the group, since they effectively made him stronger.

{scrubbed}


Maybe we can see a joke about Haley's arrows after V gives her Flame Arrow.

'Ow! Its hot!'
'Ow! Its cold!'

I don't get it.

[Crisis21]

I don't get it.

Haley's bow makes her ordinary arrows into ice arrows.

[factotum]

I see this ending with Durkon selling Haley, and maybe V, out and at least trying to convince Elan to do the same, resulting in THEM being thrown into the arena.

I echo the "WHAT?" somebody put above.


Durkon is Lawful Good. Haley and V freeing slaves is a Good act and Durkon would have absolutely no problem with them doing it--he's certainly not going to shop them to the authorities!

[JonestheSpy]

What makes you think their lifespan is bad? If he's only on number 10, he's apparently averaging 2 or 3 years between them. And he divorces Elan's mom after all, rather than arrange her death. It can't be hard to arrange a divorce when you are the power behind the throne.

I think folks are reading wayyyyyy to much into it. She's doing the Walk of Shame, and she's embarrassed because she bumped into the son of the guy she just spent the night with right when coming out the door.

Imagine yourself in a similar situation. To quote Elan: "Oooh...awkward."

[MarkusWolfe]

Haley's bow makes her ordinary arrows into ice arrows.

Oh...thought it was some obscure gender based joke.

[kojar]

I love Elan's dad's manly chest hair.

I thought it was a tatoo :smallconfused:

I like Haley`s goodness though what if she will actually sneak dangerous criminals out of the castle? :smalleek:
slavery can be a sentence, you know.

[Dr.Epic]

She's always been like that, as referenced here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html), in panel 7.

The force of her turning could force her hair to move.

[Scarlet Knight]

Welp, five bucks says that Haley's spree of good guyism gets them all up the creek without a paddle.

I'd best get the banjo tuned up....:smalleek:

[The Pink Ninja]

Elan is getting a little annoying now.

It's not so much he's oblivious to his father's evil as he gets super defensive if anyone suggests otherwise.

[Marnath]

People are like that sometimes when they want to be right.

[Raging Gene Ray]

:vaarsuvius: "Just get your stuff."

:smallamused:

That's Haley's line...

[ref]

Haley is Ms. Fanservice again, that's cool. We'll see what's next.

[Tobimaro]

I really liked Elan's "meanine meanhead" bit. Just shows that Elan still cares about his father. I just want to find out how his feelings when the "special party" starts in his honor at the arena.

[factotum]

I really liked Elan's "meanine meanhead" bit. Just shows that Elan still cares about his father. I just want to find out how his feelings when the "special party" starts in his honor at the arena.

It depends what Tarquin does when Roy appears. He could still legitimately say (because as far as we know it's the actual truth) that he didn't know about Roy being arrested, and arrange for him to be freed. If he allows the combat to go ahead even AFTER being told Roy is Elan's friend, that's where cracks in the relationship are likely to appear.

[Swordpriest]

It depends what Tarquin does when Roy appears. He could still legitimately say (because as far as we know it's the actual truth) that he didn't know about Roy being arrested, and arrange for him to be freed. If he allows the combat to go ahead even AFTER being told Roy is Elan's friend, that's where cracks in the relationship are likely to appear.

Yep, so true. So far as I know, at this point, Tarquin doesn't know that Roy exists. He's just a random, unknown foreigner arrested and sentenced to death for not having the correct papers, after all. The question is, of course, how both Tarquin's and Elan's keen awareness of dramatic conventions will lead them to handle the fact of Roy's being in the arena! :smallamused:

[Crisis21]

Yep, so true. So far as I know, at this point, Tarquin doesn't know that Roy exists. He's just a random, unknown foreigner arrested and sentenced to death for not having the correct papers, after all. The question is, of course, how both Tarquin's and Elan's keen awareness of dramatic conventions will lead them to handle the fact of Roy's being in the arena! :smallamused:

Probably something both silly and funny that both display's Tarquin's evilness and still allows Elan to maintain a relationship with his father for the time being.

[PsychoticPanda]

Something seriously freaked out Mrs. Tarquin #10, she appeared to be flying out of that room in panel 10.


I think she was just surprised to see Elan. I cant wait till the climax of this storyline!

[kojar]

I think she was just surprised to see Elan.

That is not really a reason to sprint away. she was probbably embarrast that Elan saw her walking out of Taquin`s bedroom but if she new knew him better she would just say "hi" and walk away.

[Ted The Bug]

I think she was just surprised to see Elan. I cant wait till the climax of this storyline!

Not gonna make a pun out of that.

[Sengoku]

I think folks are reading wayyyyyy to much into it. She's doing the Walk of Shame, and she's embarrassed because she bumped into the son of the guy she just spent the night with right when coming out the door.

Imagine yourself in a similar situation. To quote Elan: "Oooh...awkward."

Considering that the last wife died a short time ago of 'natural causes', maybe she knows something we don't...if, i.e. after Elan's mom who divorced, 5-6 more died of 'natural causes'...well, figure it out.

I do not think she was doing the Walk of Shame, as the fact she would have slept with Elan's dad was told Elan rather openly during the dinner.

(btw, I don't know what she'd be ashamed of...it's not like the fact the guy has a son means you should strictly feel embarassed when you meet him, even outside the bedchamber)

[Belsirk]

Elan is getting a little annoying now.

It's not so much he's oblivious to his father's evil as he gets super defensive if anyone suggests otherwise.

Or when the people say Belkar isn't Chaotic Evil :smalltongue:

Anywa, as the climax aproach (or Durkon's paper expires ) i'm wondering... the good guys would eat red-dragon barbacue ? or Elan would leave the empire with a dinosaur as mount =?

[Ricardo]

{scrubbed}

[Cerlis]

It can't be that hard to arrange an 'accident' either.

Tarquin seems to have mastered the Battle Manuever feat "Toss a Woman off a Balcony"

[Gwynfrid]

It's moderately subtle pop culture - the band Whitesnake had a hit "dancing girls" with the most famous line being "dance for your daddy all night"

Now that is the depth of reference I've come to expect from The Giant... And of course I would never find out without forum help. Thanks !

[Crisis21]

Tarquin seems to have mastered the Battle Manuever feat "Toss a Woman off a Balcony"

Nope, can't be that. Then the circumstances wouldn't be 'mysterious'.

That and there tend to be witnesses to such events even when the perpetrator takes steps to prevent that. Tarquin would know this, and would do something less likely to have witnesses.

[Nimrod's Son]

It's moderately subtle pop culture - the band Whitesnake had a hit "dancing girls" with the most famous line being "dance for your daddy all night"
Now that is the depth of reference I've come to expect from The Giant... And of course I would never find out without forum help. Thanks !
I'd be very surprised indeed if that was intentional. "Dancing Girls" wasn't a hit; it wasn't even a single. Since the vast bulk of Rich's music references have been to classic rock like the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin, I can't imaging he's making a joke that only a handful of eighties pop-metal fans will get.

The reference to the band is there, sure, but it doesn't go any deeper than that.

[Marnath]

I'd be very surprised indeed if that was intentional. "Dancing Girls" wasn't a hit; it wasn't even a single. Since the vast bulk of Rich's music references have been to classic rock like the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin, I can't imaging he's making a joke that only a handful of eighties pop-metal fans will get.

The reference to the band is there, sure, but it doesn't go any deeper than that.

Is that in the same way he wouldn't make a reference to a puppet show only Americans 60+ years old would get? :smallwink:

[Nimrod's Son]

Is that in the same way he wouldn't make a reference to a puppet show only Americans 60+ years old would get? :smallwink:
Sure, if you want to class an enormous drawing of a hand puppet right alongside the throwaway use of the single word "Daddy" in a sentence where it makes perfect sense. :smallsigh:

It's a coincidence, nothing more, and a tenuous one at that. So Whitesnake once wrote a song that happens to contain the word "Daddy", big deal - it's not even one of their well-known songs; it's an obscure album track. There's no way that was a deliberate joke; it's barely even worth noting as a coincidence.

The Ollie reference and how dated it was, on the other hand, was the entire point of the joke. So no, it's not in the same way at all.

[snikrept]

"Rescuing" slaves is problematic. What would you do, if you were suddenly set "free" with no job, no money, no relatives, and in a strange Evil country? Freeing slaves would entail a relocation program, education, job training, and so on. We haven't even touched on institutionalization, where slaves become adapted to their condition and freedom is a horror to be avoided. Everyone remember the character "Crooks" from Shawshank Redemption? He committed suicide when faced with freedom. Simply busting chains and throwing people outside the palace would be a death sentence.

Ah, well, who cares about stupid reality, this is a story of fiction, it feels good to make our characters free slaves.

Well, if the slaves are in servitude for reasons similar to why Roy and Belkar are in servitude, they may already have lives and families to go back to, that they enjoyed before they ran afoul of the lawful evil justice system. We've got good evidence that the entire regime is only a few years old tops anyhow, so a society with a hereditary or lifelong slave class may not be the best model. They may be going that way but I doubt they've got there yet.

[Querzis]

Well, if the slaves are in servitude for reasons similar to why Roy and Belkar are in servitude, they may already have lives and families to go back to, that they enjoyed before they ran afoul of the lawful evil justice system. We've got good evidence that the entire regime is only a few years old tops anyhow, so a society with a hereditary or lifelong slave class may not be the best model. They may be going that way but I doubt they've got there yet.

The empire doesnt need to be more then a few years old to have a lifelong and hereditary slave class, when you take over a country you certainly arent gonna kill the slaves.

[Cerlis]

Nope, can't be that. Then the circumstances wouldn't be 'mysterious'.

That and there tend to be witnesses to such events even when the perpetrator takes steps to prevent that. Tarquin would know this, and would do something less likely to have witnesses.

exactly. And if she happens to "trip" and fall over the balcony, possibly because of a faulty handrail, it will serve his purposes.

It was a joke saying he threw one girl off a balcony. and if you want to kill someone accidentally, in movies a unseen push is usually the way to do it :P

[zmasterofjersey]

Is anyone else thinking about why Tarquin didn't question who Roy was in the last 2 panels?

[factotum]

Is anyone else thinking about why Tarquin didn't question who Roy was in the last 2 panels?

Not really...can't see any particular reason why he should care.

[the_tick_rules]

That sounds bout right.

[Secris]

I'm betting Haley or V get caught, but maybe not both of them, and thrown into the gladiatorial arena too by some guard who doesn't know they are Daddy's guests.

:haley: Wait, wait, I'm a guest of General Tarquin! You can't do this!
Cynical, overworked guard: Yeah, right, get in the cell and shut up.


Not gonna make a pun out of that.

No need, the puns practically missed itself. But I would like to say, we probably already missed it.

[Marnath]

Sure, if you want to class an enormous drawing of a hand puppet right alongside the throwaway use of the single word "Daddy" in a sentence where it makes perfect sense. :smallsigh:

It's a coincidence, nothing more, and a tenuous one at that. So Whitesnake once wrote a song that happens to contain the word "Daddy", big deal - it's not even one of their well-known songs; it's an obscure album track. There's no way that was a deliberate joke; it's barely even worth noting as a coincidence.

The Ollie reference and how dated it was, on the other hand, was the entire point of the joke. So no, it's not in the same way at all.

I think it refers to Malack, personally. I was just saying it could be a reference to the band. Just because its not a well-known song doesn't mean Rich didn't make a reference. It's entirely possible, and I don't think there's grounds to entirely rule it out when it could technically be true.

[Nimrod's Son]

I think it refers to Malack, personally.
Well, of course. "Whitesnake" is Malack and "Daddy" is Tarquin. That goes without saying.


I was just saying it could be a reference to the band.
It IS a reference to the band. I already said that in my first post on the subject. You even quoted it.


Just because its not a well-known song doesn't mean Rich didn't make a reference.
See, here's where you lost me. The reference is to the band, nothing more. The fact that they once wrote a song that contains the word "Daddy" is merely a coincidence, and not a very notable one at that. If there had been any reference to dancing girls there, or a full lyric being quoted, that would be another matter. But a single, commonly-used word in a sentence where it makes perfect sense is not a reference.


It's entirely possible, and I don't think there's grounds to entirely rule it out when it could technically be true.
:smallsigh: Why stop there then? That panel is full of Whitesnake "references" if you want to be that vague. They're rescuing slaves... and Whitesnake once wrote a song called "Slave"! They've taking them out of the palace... and Whitesnake's "Wine, Women & Song" contains the word "palace"! Haley's wearing her dark and edgy resistance gear again... and Whitesnake's album Slide It In has a woman in black on the cover! V mentions the number 23... and "Here I Go Again" hit the Billboard number 1 almost exactly 23 years ago! These are all deliberate Whitesnake references; none of them can be ruled out entirely, so you can't prove me wrong!

:smallwink:

[sabremeister]

Don't forget that the EoB is Evil. It has laws to support slavery, harsh punishments for minor crimes, and so on. An LE character would fit right in. A CG character would be able to do exactly what Haley is doing - breaking the laws to do Good by freeing slaves. An LG character would, however, be very stuck. The Lawful part of them demands that they, at the minimum, do not break the laws of where they are. The Good part of them, on the other hand, will compel them to attempt to do Good things like freeing slaves. Durkon is LG, and is already handling perhaps more moral conflict than he can comfortably deal with just by being in the EoB. If Haley & Vaarsuvius are caught, he may be asked his opinion on what to do with them, in which case he will have to decide between his Lawful part and his Good part. I actually think that's going to be the thing that causes most trouble for the Order in this arc - not Roy and Belkar's appearance in the arena in front of Elan, V, Haley and Tarquin; not Haley's mistrust of Tarquin and his dissembling over Girard; not even the ramifications of Haley & V being caught freeing slaves - but how Durkon will react to any and all of these things.

Durkon's LG tendencies have already caused more trouble than necessary, in #743 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html). V wisely decided to stay away from the banquet (for whatever reason), which reduced the chances of something happening to complicate matters for the Order. If Durkon had declined Malack's invitation, he would not have been there to cause Elan to say, "cleric of Thor who I have never met", which meant Haley had to come up with the bardic lore cover. He also would not have had the temptation to question Haley's plan in the middle of executing it in hostile company, which means that Malack would not have noticed them talking like they knew each other (contrary to the image the plan was supposed to project), and Haley would not have had to convert to Thor on the spot, thus getting drunk and annoying Durkon. And an annoyed Durkon is likely to make bad decisions. I don't think he's actually learned anything from his interactions with V on the ship or afterwards, where he admitted that he was wrong in his attitude towards V, way too late and for the wrong reasons.

[Petrocorus]

...


I like this analysis.

And incidently, this is exactly why i never like to plays LG character.
I always prefer to play NG and CG. In LG, the Lawful and the Good might to often be in conflict.

[Zea mays]

I too like sabremeister's analysis (minor nit-pick: do we know if V was even invited to the banquet? Wisdom, as such, might not have played any part in keeping him away)

Spotlight time and character development for Durkon would be very welcome. What will his internal conflict look like? :smallamused:

[blunk]

See, here's where you lost me. The reference is to the band, nothing more. The fact that they once wrote a song that contains the word "Daddy" is merely a coincidence, and not a very notable one at that. If there had been any reference to dancing girls there, or a full lyric being quoted, that would be another matter. But a single, commonly-used word in a sentence where it makes perfect sense is not a reference.I'll go one step further: the only piece of information about Whitesnake in the public consciousness, other than the name, is "Here I Go Again" - and maybe not even that, depending. So any other reference to them is a waste of words.

To allude to a recent Jon Stewart bit - if you want to make a joke about Belgium, you make it about waffles, or about being overrun by Nazis. Nothing else will get laughs.

[Gift Jeraff]

For some reason, the fact that Haley seems to think that Malack is worse than Tarquin increases my suspicion that Malack will turn out to be more of anti-villain and/or tragic character, whereas Tarquin will turn out to be simply terrible.

Although I do hope Haley is only saying that to appease Elan. Malack only tried to feed them to a dragon because he thought they were/were associated with a criminal (even if she doesn't know about Malack's children, she personally knows Nale is absolutely Evil and specializes in deception, so Malack's attempts to quickly dispose of them are not unfounded), whereas Tarquin actually pushed her out of a window and raised said criminal who has tried to kill her and her boyfriend multiple times.

[hamishspence]

An LG character would, however, be very stuck. The Lawful part of them demands that they, at the minimum, do not break the laws of where they are.

Lawful does not automatically mean "will not break the laws of where they are"

Even an LN character can be a lawbreaker- given sufficient incentive and a belief that the laws of the place they're at, are "not legitimate".

[suszterpatt]

Lawful does not automatically mean "will not break the laws of where they are"

Even an LN character can be a lawbreaker- given sufficient incentive and a belief that the laws of the place they're at, are "not legitimate".This.

Lawful alignment is a subscription to some personal code of honor or set of ideals, not the laws of the land. Durkon's current predicament isn't about breaking the laws of the Empire, it's about being deceitful to a person that treated him with hospitalism and respect.

[MarkusWolfe]

For some reason, the fact that Haley seems to think that Malack is worse than Tarquin increases my suspicion that Malack will turn out to be more of anti-villain and/or tragic character, whereas Tarquin will turn out to be simply terrible.

Although I do hope Haley is only saying that to appease Elan. Malack only tried to feed them to a dragon because he thought they were/were associated with a criminal (even if she doesn't know about Malack's children, she personally knows Nale is absolutely Evil and specializes in deception, so Malack's attempts to quickly dispose of them are not unfounded), whereas Tarquin actually pushed her out of a window and raised said criminal who has tried to kill her and her boyfriend multiple times.

Wait, Malack has children? What strip was that in?

[hamishspence]

This strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html

"You'll have to forgive Malack, Elan. Nale killed three of his children."

[JoeSkull]

This strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html

"You'll have to forgive Malack, Elan. Nale killed three of his children."

hmmm, it seems like he should beable to raise them, being a high level cleric of an empire and all.

[Kish]

The efforts to resurrect Eric Greenhilt failed.

Beyond that, we don't know what condition Nale left the bodies in or, for that matter, that Malack didn't resurrect them. "Nale killed three of his children, showing intent to remove them from the world permanently, causing them severe emotional trauma and costing them a level each (or two constitution points each, if they weren't adult adventurers over first level at the time Nale killed them)" would give Malack excellent reason to hate Nale.

[JoeSkull]

The efforts to resurrect Eric Greenhilt failed.

Beyond that, we don't know what condition Nale left the bodies in or, for that matter, that Malack didn't resurrect them. "Nale killed three of his children, showing intent to remove them from the world permanently, causing them severe emotional trauma and costing them a level each (or two constitution points each, if they weren't adult adventurers over first level at the time Nale killed them)" would give Malack excellent reason to hate Nale.

good points

[sabremeister]

Lawful does not automatically mean "will not break the laws of where they are"

Even an LN character can be a lawbreaker- given sufficient incentive and a belief that the laws of the place they're at, are "not legitimate".

This.

Lawful alignment is a subscription to some personal code of honor or set of ideals, not the laws of the land. Durkon's current predicament isn't about breaking the laws of the Empire, it's about being deceitful to a person that treated him with hospitalism and respect.

But the laws of the EoB are legitimate, and are perceived as such by Durkon - upon discovering Roy and Belkar's arrest, he immediately sneaks out of the city in order to re-enter legitimately and thus get the proper papers. And then he talks to Roy magically to tell him that he won't be breaking them out (in #733). In fact, throughout the comic, Durkon has shown a propensity to follow laws over the Good orders and requests of his team-mates (for example, not resisting Miko's attempt to arrest them all. And, yes, I am aware that he later lied to Miko in Azure City's prison about the locks, but that was because a) he realised she was a jerk, and b) admitting that they had been trying to escape would have delayed them finding out exactly what was going on and why they had been arrested in the first place).

And it's not about being deceitful to someone who's shown him hospitality and respect (Malack). He deceived him over his true reason for being in the city in #735, his dislike of the tea in #737, and his reason for abruptly leaving his company in #739. Durkon says he won't lie to Malack, but that doesn't stop him dissembling or omitting information in order to follow Haley's plan. And yet in panel 8 of #743 he nearly breaks Haley's plan because he didn't have the wit to keep quiet and let the person with the high bluff skill answer Malack's question, so that he wouldn't have to lie in his answer.

Durkon is following his ideals - unfortunately, in the middle of a clandestine operation in the palace of an LE country, whilst on a quest to save the world that could be hijacked by said LE country's leadership if they get enough information about it, is not the time for an LG character to follow his Lawful ideals more than his Good ideals, which is what Durkon is doing.

[Pyron]

But the laws of the EoB are legitimate.

The laws of Gobbotopia are just as legitimate, yet there are LG characters (one of them paladin, no less) who participate in a clandestine operation to liberate its slave populate.

So, really there is no alignment conflict between law and good in this case - a LG character does not have to follow laws that are evil and corrupt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a).

[sabremeister]

a LG character does not have to follow laws that are evil and corrupt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a).

And Durkon is choosing to do just that. (Though I think you meant the laws were made by the evil and corrupt - in LG Azure City criminals got trials, and in our own world, anyone entering any country without a valid passport is a criminal there subject to punishment. It's the validity of the trial that makes it corrupt, and the extent of the punishment that makes it evil.)

[suszterpatt]

...
He got his papers so he could help the others instead of getting arrested himself. You'd have to be really Lawful Stupid to do anything else in that situation. Also note that he got his papers by illegally sneaking out of the city and pretending to arrive for the first time (not, for instance, approaching a guard and asking him how to get papers).
Likewise, breaking Roy and Belkar out of jail would be much more destructive to the quest than the delay from arranging a legal pardon.
He didn't resist Miko because he believed that's what Thor wanted him to do, not because he acknowledged her authority.
He didn't really lie in the Azure City prison. He bent the truth, but he did that in order to protect his fellow party members.
He doesn't tell Malack about their quest at first because it is, afterall, a top secret quest upon which the very existence of the multiverse depends. It's also why he makes a lame excuse to go and rescue Elan and Haley, and why he goes along with Haley's plan (disapprovingly as he may): to some degree, their mission takes precedence over due procedure.

So the bottom line is, Durkon has had no problems setting aside the laws of others when he believed it's for the greater good, and that's perfectly in line with the Lawful alignment. His disapproval of Haley's plan has nothing to do with breaking the laws of the Empire. Even more so because they never broke any of the Empire's laws in the first place, only Roy and Belkar did.

[Pyron]

And Durkon is choosing to do just that.(Though I think you meant the laws were made by the evil and corrupt

No.

I meant exactly that - laws that are evil and corrupt. The slavery in the EoB is an example of an evil and corrupt law.

Remember, you've put forth the argument that a lawful good character (as in, every character that wrote LG on their sheet) would be in a tight bind in this situation.


Don't forget that the EoB is Evil. It has laws to support slavery, harsh punishments for minor crimes, and so on. An LE character would fit right in. A CG character would be able to do exactly what Haley is doing - breaking the laws to do Good by freeing slaves. An LG character would, however, be very stuck. The Lawful part of them demands that they, at the minimum, do not break the laws of where they are. (empathize mine)

However, this is not the case. The examples from both Wizards.com and Thanh proved that a LG character is under no obligation to honor any law that promotes evil practices. In Gobbotopia (a country with laws that are just as legitimate as the EoB's), there is a lawful good paladin is doing exactly what Haley is doing right now. How do you explain that?

[leper0messiah]

this just struck me...does Haley normally sleep naked?:smallconfused:

[rewinn]

this just struck me...does Haley normally sleep naked?:smallconfused:
:elan: "No, you silly, because then she would be invisible!"

[Swordpriest]

this just struck me...does Haley normally sleep naked?:smallconfused:

Well, there could be another reason that she's naked in bed, other than just a general sleeping habit .... :smallwink:

[silas the monk]

In Gobbotopia (a country with laws that are just as legitimate as the EoB's), there is a lawful good paladin is doing exactly what Haley is doing right now. How do you explain that?

Well the azurites do not recognise Gobbotopia as a legitimate country as it stole the land from them. Also the Azurites have not signed a peace treaty with Gobbotopia so are still at war.

[Kish]

Well the azurites do not recognise Gobbotopia as a legitimate country as it stole the land from them. Also the Azurites have not signed a peace treaty with Gobbotopia so are still at war.
At what point does, "We can come up with ways Lawful people can disregard these laws while maintaining the weird conceit that Lawfulness is about being obligated to follow laws, rather than being about order," become too much of a stretch to be worth it?

[brionl]

At what point does, "We can come up with ways Lawful people can disregard these laws while maintaining the weird conceit that Lawfulness is about being obligated to follow laws, rather than being about order," become too much of a stretch to be worth it?

Are you new to the internet or something? There is no position so stupid and insupportable that someone will not argue in favor of it.

c.f. "Belkar isn't evil"

[Warren Dew]

In fact, throughout the comic, Durkon has shown a propensity to follow laws over the Good orders and requests of his team-mates (for example, not resisting Miko's attempt to arrest them all.

Since when is "resisting arrest by a lawful good authority instead of trying to prove one's innocence before the court" constitute "good"? That's neutral at best.


At what point does, "We can come up with ways Lawful people can disregard these laws while maintaining the weird conceit that Lawfulness is about being obligated to follow laws, rather than being about order," become too much of a stretch to be worth it?

Gobbotopia is a poor example, though - it's ruled by the whims of its leaders, not by laws, so it's hardly a lawful government. The place the order is currently in is a much better example.

[factotum]

Gobbotopia is a poor example, though - it's ruled by the whims of its leaders, not by laws, so it's hardly a lawful government.

I doubt that, somehow. Redcloak ruling according to whim? Not gonna happen. I think you're maybe confusing Redcloak and Xykon--Xykon isn't really one of the leaders of Gobbotopia (a state he couldn't give a withered thumb-bone for), so you can't say his mad whims make the place somehow non-Lawful.

[snikrept]

Durkon wouldn't be 'causing trouble' by asking that they work within the system to get Roy & Belkar sprung if they'd actually done what he said: ask Elan's dad to pardon them both. Haley's paranoia in not wanting to tell anyone they are linked to Roy & Belkar is what is causing trouble here, not Durkon's foibles :P

Durkon's suggestion wasn't just lawful for the sake of being lawful, it was also more sensible than what the others wanted to do - namely attack the jailhouse and bust them out by force, likely bringing the whole place down around their ears.

[Anterean]

And Durkon is choosing to do just that. (Though I think you meant the laws were made by the evil and corrupt - in LG Azure City criminals got trials, and in our own world, anyone entering any country without a valid passport is a criminal there subject to punishment. It's the validity of the trial that makes it corrupt, and the extent of the punishment that makes it evil.)

Durkon have no idea that Roy and Belkar are serving a life sentence (in the gladiatorial arena). Last they spoke they hadn´t had their trail yet.
For all he knows they could have received a perfectly fair sentence for their crimes

[Math_Mage]

I just want to ask--does anyone know exactly what Haley is talking about in the last panel? Her response to V's straightforward answer clearly indicates that she wasn't literally talking about sneaking slaves out of the palace, but that brings up the question of what the subject actually was. Roy and Belkar, perhaps?

EDIT: I find Gobbotopia much more lawful than the Empire of Blood, actually. The military organization of Redcloak's followers could hardly be otherwise. EoB reminds me more of pre-fall Luskan, essentially NE.

[Gray Mage]

I just want to ask--does anyone know exactly what Haley is talking about in the last panel? Her response to V's straightforward answer clearly indicates that she wasn't literally talking about sneaking slaves out of the palace, but that brings up the question of what the subject actually was. Roy and Belkar, perhaps?

I think that Haley was literally talking about sneaking the slaves out, but V interpretated it as a theorical question.

[Math_Mage]

I think that Haley was literally talking about sneaking the slaves out, but V interpretated it as a theorical question.

*blinks* Nah, too straightforward. *blinks* D*** it!

[the_tick_rules]

Didn't Haley not wanna rock the boat?

[Swordpriest]

I think that Haley was literally talking about sneaking the slaves out, but V interpretated it as a theorical question.

I don't know -- the whole conversation seems weird to me, and I can't figure it out at all. I don't have any theories about it, but it seems like it doesn't say what it superficially seems to be saying -- while at the same time, not saying anything else, either. Basically incomprehensible. :smalleek:

[cc_kizz]

I don't know -- the whole conversation seems weird to me, and I can't figure it out at all. I don't have any theories about it, but it seems like it doesn't say what it superficially seems to be saying -- while at the same time, not saying anything else, either. Basically incomprehensible. :smalleek:

If Haley had asked, "How many slaves do you think we can sneak out of the palace before dinner?", I think things would be less ambiguous.

Although, Haley was asking V about curiosity in finding out, but since Vaarsuvius was able to estimate, wasn't interested in attending an event just to get an answer. Haley's intention all along was to simply go free slaves, but she asked in a playful manner.

[suszterpatt]

Didn't Haley not wanna rock the boat?It's not rocking the boat if you don't get caught.


I mean, they're high level PCs freeing slaves from what, level 4 guards? What could possibly go wrong?

[Swordpriest]

If Haley had asked, "How many slaves do you think we can sneak out of the palace before dinner?", I think things would be less ambiguous.

Although, Haley was asking V about curiosity in finding out, but since Vaarsuvius was able to estimate, wasn't interested in attending an event just to get an answer. Haley's intention all along was to simply go free slaves, but she asked in a playful manner.

Well, that makes more sense than it not making sense at all, so you're right -- thanks for clearing it up a bit.

[Arancaytar]

Personally I hope Tarqin will do something incredibly evil and Elan won't be able to rationalize it away this time.
But I have no expectations that he'll face the truth.

Why is it so hard for some people to accept that maybe their parents aren't of the highest moral caliber?

I don't get how he is so oblivious (though he *is* Elan). Tarqin is the man who raised Nale.

[angroy]

I personly can't decide what I liked more out of:

:vaarsuvius: By my calculations, twenty-three.

:elan:Thanks generic soldier!

or
:Future Mrs Tarquin #10: Oh! Ummm- Hello.
:elan: Hi! I think we met at the dinner last night.
:Future Mrs Tarquin #10: ... I have to go.
<Runs off>

:smallbiggrin:

[the_tick_rules]

It seems alot,including wives, is disposable in these lands lol.

On another note anyone know when a new comic is expected?

[Warren Dew]

I doubt that, somehow. Redcloak ruling according to whim? Not gonna happen. I think you're maybe confusing Redcloak and Xykon--Xykon isn't really one of the leaders of Gobbotopia (a state he couldn't give a withered thumb-bone for), so you can't say his mad whims make the place somehow non-Lawful.

Xykon says "look for the phylactery", and everyone in Gobbotopia drops what they're doing to look for the phylactery. Sounds like he has a big say in how the place is run.

The fact that he, as one of its rulers, couldn't care less whether the place succeeds just further illustrates how chaotic its government is.

[factotum]

Xykon says "look for the phylactery", and everyone in Gobbotopia drops what they're doing to look for the phylactery. Sounds like he has a big say in how the place is run.


That's more because he has Redcloak's unmentionables in a vice than anything else. Once they leave the city I imagine it'll very much revert to type for a Lawful Evil society.

[Belsirk]

Xykon says "look for the phylactery", and everyone in Gobbotopia drops what they're doing to look for the phylactery. Sounds like he has a big say in how the place is run.

The fact that he, as one of its rulers, couldn't care less whether the place succeeds just further illustrates how chaotic its government is.

It's a SUDO order for Gobbotopia , don't care if he is a administrator/ruler, just have... higher priority than other ruler

[Gd8908]

Haley and V are so cute together.:smallsmile:
It's good to see that V is back on the good side.

I was just reading through the comments and, "good to see V back on the good side again"? How long has it been since you've read one of the OOTS? Or maybe you're just one of those 9.5% of the OOTS fan base that don't check back six times a week...
On a different subject, am I the only one who thinks the big 7-5-0 is taking a while?:smallconfused:

[zimmerwald1915]

I was just reading through the comments and, "good to see V back on the good side again"? How long has it been since you've read one of the OOTS?
I'm not sure how V's "back on the good side" either, really, and would like the argument laid out.

On the other topic, 750 might involve as many as four stories (Belkar/Roy/Enor/Gaanji, Tarquin/Elan, Durkon/Malack, Haley/V/slaves), any one of which might involve characters or scenery that has never been shown before. I'm not surprised it's taking that long.