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BeholderSlayer
2010-10-01, 06:37 PM
Since we've successfully derailed at least 2 threads with this topic, I decided to take it upon myself to open a thread on the topic (others suggested it, I just don't see one open yet).

This thread is for discussion of demons, devils, the Blood War, why devils r teh roxxorz (just kidding) and anything else pertinent to theory behind their alignments and actions.

I'll start:
Asmodeus > Demogorgon :smallbiggrin:

Yora
2010-10-01, 06:51 PM
Asmodeus > Demogorgon :smallbiggrin:

Well, yes. But who cares! :smallbiggrin:

Asmodeus spends all day sitting in his castle and sponsors corrupt politicians to harvest their souls. When devils are a problem, it's usually just for the very same people who called them in the first place. So...
But Demogorgon will come to your home and eat your face! :smallbiggrin:

SurlySeraph
2010-10-01, 06:58 PM
Glasya.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/FC2_Gallery/101506.jpg

Malcanthet.
http://lordsofaviron.com/images/Malcanthet.jpg

Who looks more qualified to be Demon Queen of Succubi to you?

Daze
2010-10-01, 06:58 PM
Asmodeus spends all day sitting in his castle and sponsors corrupt politicians to harvest their souls. When devils are a problem, it's usually just for the very same people who called them in the first place. So...
But Demogorgon will come to your home and eat your face! :smallbiggrin:

Well put actually. If a summoned CE creature only destroys the caster, then who cares? The proverbial "if a tree falls in a forest..." bit.

However, as most Abyssal and lower planar creatures favorite pastime is the destruction and/or consumption of mortal souls, I'd say we better hope whatever deranged individual summoned them remembered to draw a complete circle! Lest your adventuring party becomes the buffet table for some rampaging Glazebru.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-01, 08:08 PM
Basically yer standard Law vs Chaos. It's my experience that players that go evil tend to slide towards chaos.

Proof that players are in fact demons.

The Tygre
2010-10-02, 01:35 AM
The difference is in destruction vs. domination. Ultimately, the Blood War is just another name for a bit of the old, old, oooold war of Law vs. Chaos, stretching all the way back to the Qliphoth. Think of it this way; when a demon/devil performs an action, does that action, at heart, produce a result that shifts a return to law or chaos? Succubi are demons even though they aren't destroyers, like barbazu are devils even though they don't really rule anything all that well. The end-result, that shifting the world back to chaos or order for the forces of evil, that is the difference between demons and devils.

And of course, the 'loths sit in the middle and watch the little puppets dance. Or at least like to think they do.

WitchSlayer
2010-10-02, 02:04 AM
I didn't realize the difference until I let my players start wandering the planes at which time I read the Manual of the Planes. I think it's interesting how they separate very well the two archetypal beings from Hell, with Devils being people of wealth and taste, and Demons letting the bodies hit the floor, as it were. Kind of sad there's no Prince of Hell-style epic destiny for Demons like there is for Devils, but I guess it wouldn't make as much sense.

akma
2010-10-02, 04:07 AM
From which campaign setting the devils and demons as we know them originate, and why is everyone so keen to adopt them to other settings?

Yora
2010-10-02, 04:41 AM
The setting that explored the great wheel cosmology and it's creatures the most is clearly Planescape. I think a great number of outsiders actually appeared there for the first time.
It's directly copied in the 3rd Ed. Manual of the Planes, but I think since 3.5e Wizards has started to gradually abandon the fluff and crate new backgrounds for the fiends and celestials. But when people are talking about Modrons and Gith and such, it's almost always pure Planescape. :smallbiggrin:

nyarlathotep
2010-10-02, 04:51 AM
I'll start:
Asmodeus > Demogorgon :smallbiggrin:

Asmodeus has his power because of careful planning, deals in high places, and playing off the weaknesses of others.

Demogorgon got were he is right now by waking up in the morning and being Demogorgon.

Coidzor
2010-10-02, 04:55 AM
Who looks more qualified to be Demon Queen of Succubi to you?

To be honest... Neither of them look... especially demon queen of the succubi-ish... :/

FelixG
2010-10-02, 05:08 AM
Basically yer standard Law vs Chaos. It's my experience that players that go evil tend to slide towards chaos.

Proof that players are in fact demons.

I always play LE! Im a devil thank you :smallamused:

Morph Bark
2010-10-02, 05:14 AM
To be honest... Neither of them look... especially demon queen of the succubi-ish... :/

Agreed. There are standard devils and demons that look the part more, but not really queen-ish.

akma
2010-10-02, 10:21 AM
But when people are talking about Modrons and Gith and such, it's almost always pure Planescape. :smallbiggrin:

I never saw anyone mention Modrons before, but Gith sounds familier.

Why is there the blood war? Is there a real reason or just becuse demons and devils are of diffrent alignments?

hamishspence
2010-10-02, 11:00 AM
Agreed. There are standard devils and demons that look the part more, but not really queen-ish.

The Paizo version of Malcanthet is OK, if a little odd in the neck:

http://www.waynereynolds.com/Magazine%20Art/MagazineArt/EDragon353_Malcanthet02.jpg

Morithias
2010-10-02, 11:02 AM
To be honest... Neither of them look... especially demon queen of the succubi-ish... :/

I'd have to go with Glasya. The second one looks more like a warrior, Glasya actually looks like something doable.

For the best "sexy" underworlder, I'd have to go with the pleasure devil, even in normal form they look like people.

hamishspence
2010-10-02, 11:05 AM
FC2 says that in normal form the pleasure devil "has a pair of black, feathery wings"- the picture in the book is of one in disguise.

Morph Bark
2010-10-02, 11:55 AM
The Paizo version of Malcanthet is OK, if a little odd in the neck:

http://www.waynereynolds.com/Magazine%20Art/MagazineArt/EDragon353_Malcanthet02.jpg

She certainly looks queen-like, although I agree about the neck. It's almost as if there is a headless woman lying there with Malcanthet standing behind the throne...


I'd have to go with Glasya. The second one looks more like a warrior, Glasya actually looks like something doable.

I'd moreso say that official Malcanthet looks like a woman at a fancy party, just with demonic features.

Eldan
2010-10-02, 12:31 PM
To be honest... Neither of them look... especially demon queen of the succubi-ish... :/

It's strange... I went looking through my Planescape PDFs to check if Malkanthet got a prettier picture by Di'Terlizzi somewhere. She doesn't even seem to be mentioned, really.

On the subject of pictures, however: I found this Marilith, which is the first I see which looks like someone I'd actually think could be a competent blood war general.

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1237/marilith.jpg


I also like to link this picture at every opportunity:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8281/baatezuarmy.jpg

SoC175
2010-10-02, 12:44 PM
It's strange... I went looking through my Planescape PDFs to check if Malkanthet got a prettier picture by Di'Terlizzi somewhere. She doesn't even seem to be mentioned, really. I think that she's actually a 3.x invention

hamishspence
2010-10-02, 12:45 PM
It's strange... I went looking through my Planescape PDFs to check if Malkanthet got a prettier picture by Di'Terlizzi somewhere. She doesn't even seem to be mentioned, really.

In the Demononicon of Iggwilv article, it states:

Malcanthet is wholly 3rd edition D&D and was invented by Robert J Kuntz for Dungeon #112's mega-adventure, "Maure Castle".

It does say that the idea of a "Queen of Succubi" is not new though- mentioning Shami-Amourae as appearing in Dungeon #5, and Lynkhab as appearing in 2nd ed Planescape.

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-02, 02:01 PM
I didn't realize the difference until I let my players start wandering the planes at which time I read the Manual of the Planes. I think it's interesting how they separate very well the two archetypal beings from Hell, with Devils being people of wealth and taste, and Demons letting the bodies hit the floor, as it were. Kind of sad there's no Prince of Hell-style epic destiny for Demons like there is for Devils, but I guess it wouldn't make as much sense.

I don't know....there might be one big Demon that is far more powerful than any other Demon by a magnitude of at least 5, but Demons aren't well organized enough to have a King of Hell type scenario.

The way I see it is that the Devils desire to rule a tyrannic state. They're the kids who kick other people out of the sandbox so they can use it all to make their own glorious sandcastle.

Demons go around destroying everything in their path for the sake of "I am chaotic evil, lol." They're the kids who go around stamping on other people's sandcastles, not even bothering to build their own.

If you were even paying attention to the sandbox analogy, it should be obvious why they're engaged in the Blood War.

Anyone familiar with Shavarath 'The Eternal Battlefield'? It's a plane from Eberron that the Devils (controls a Evil, Extra Lawful Section), Demons(controls an Extra Evil, Chaotic Section) and Celestials (controls a Good, Extra Lawful Section)are constantly fighting over. On this plane, illusion and charm magic is weakened, but anything imitating or enhancing a weapon is enhanced.

I always thought that if it was from the Greyhawk setting, the place would be a little less evil and a bit more chaotic, as Kord would gather up all the fighters, barbarians, clerics, paladins and whatnot from Ysgard and do a clean sweep of the plane once every year.

hamishspence
2010-10-02, 02:07 PM
I don't know....there might be one big Demon that is far more powerful than any other Demon by a magnitude of at least 5, but Demons aren't well organized enough to have a King of Hell type scenario.

Don't know about a magnitude of at least 5, but (according to Demonomicon: Demogorgon) "there are certainly more dangerous things dwelling in some corners of the Abyss", even if "few can match the unbridled fury of Demogorgon enraged".

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 02:23 PM
Asmodeus is the single strongest devil or demon (daemons have never had their strongest characters statted out so we can't say on the General of Gehenna, except that he's the only person winning the Blood War according to the Blood War box set). This is because all the power is concentrated in him. Demogorgon has 2 or 3 close competitors (Orcus, Grazzt [I can't spell his name], the other guy I can't remember) who all divide that power 4 ways before you get into the numerous lesser arch-demons. Asmodeus stole Geryon's power, has the power from the tribute of the other lords of the 9, and is still only marginally stronger than Demogorgon. If I lived in the Outer Planes I'd fear the day one demon lord won, because even if the demons tend not to plan well the big 4 Demon Lords do, almost as well as Asmodeus and actually possibly better to keep their position. The LE gods work to maintain the hierarchy, and the forces of Good are too worried someone worse would take Asmodeus's place, so he really only has to worry about 8 minions and he has help from whatever LE deities exist. Demogorgon (and the other 3 major demon lords) has to worry about 3 beings of roughly equal power, dozens of dangerous lower echelon archfiends, the fact that a CE god might easily ally with one of their enemies, and they still manage to maintain their position and in the case of Orcus and Demogorgon improve it.

When one of those two wins, all Hell will break loose.

And all these devils/demons conversations are making me want to start a campaign where people play a 4 (maybe 5) man team of devils in the Blood War. Everybody would have 1 level (to differentiate themselves) and all the standard traits for whatever devil they all start at and they'd all promote together (so everybody might be spinagons and then become osyluths, and eventually they could all be Pit Fiends).

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-02, 03:11 PM
And all these devils/demons conversations are making me want to start a campaign where people play a 4 (maybe 5) man team of devils in the Blood War. Everybody would have 1 level (to differentiate themselves) and all the standard traits for whatever devil they all start at and they'd all promote together (so everybody might be spinagons and then become osyluths, and eventually they could all be Pit Fiends).

Are you familiar with the Devil type known as an 'Orthon'? They're foot troops specialized to fight Demons, though they're pretty effective against anything. I play Dungeons and Dragons Online (if you don't mind missing out on most of the roleplaying aspects and instead just want to play in Eberron for the best combat mechanics of any free MMO, it's good) and you end up facing off a lot of these guys levels 15-20 alongside Bearded Devils. I can't give you much on their stats, save that they do sonic damage on every hit, their voice sounds like a man is shouting at the same time an elephant is making an elephant noise but instead of a high pitched noise it's really low pitched, they have one handed reloading crossbows and they explode into maggots when they die, but this is what they look like:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/designdev_orthon.jpg

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 03:16 PM
Yep, page 128-130 of FCII.

There's also Legion Devils on page 122-123 of the same book which would work as good starting forms (CR 3, means you'd have to avoid the tanar'ri for the most part at the start) and an emphasis on Team Work.

I just used the ones I could remember off the top of my head.

Cogidubnus
2010-10-02, 03:19 PM
I've built a couple of devil and demon characters, but I always try to have them break the mould.

My pit fiend devil is NE, and focussing on getting personal power any way he can, but is sick of being a lackey for more powerful devils, has given them the finger and walked out of Hell.

The succubus found the end of time at the bottom of the Abyss, and ran. Now she tries to build her power up through an army of mortal and undead devotees by combining succubus charm with bardic music.

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 03:35 PM
I have to say, that is a really interesting idea. Would you be throwing conventional leveling out the window, and only advance through the forms? I don't think there are any ECL 1 devils, so will you be making the form advancement according to CR?

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 03:42 PM
Well my basic idea included giving you maybe one to three levels in each form and then deleveling when you upgraded forms. Not sure if I'd end up going with that though. It would require talking to the players.

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 03:52 PM
So, you would start out as a type of devil, advance a number of levels until you reach the ECL of the other devil, delevel and convert into that type?

Interesting. How exactly would you do that? Would you keep the base attributes, but switch the racial modifiers like reincarnation?

Would you keep the skills/feats you have?

Oh, man, I smell an epic evil campaign...

Volthawk
2010-10-02, 03:53 PM
Well my basic idea included giving you maybe one to three levels in each form and then deleveling when you upgraded forms. Not sure if I'd end up going with that though. It would require talking to the players.

Maybe use something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77010)?

Eldan
2010-10-02, 04:01 PM
Shouldn't you be paying attention to the game? :smalltongue:

Anyway, I faintly recall being in a game like that once... we were imps, I think, with the possibility to level later, though the game died before that.

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 04:02 PM
Maybe, but in a way I'm trying to avoid you being unique outsides at the beginning and represent the slow crawl up from lemure (okay skipping lemure since you can't really play a lemure) to pit fiend and maybe eventually Duke of Hell. The 1 or more class levels is to give you some customization without totally making you something different. It's only an idea I've been having I'm not sure if it'll come to anything, anyway.

Volthawk
2010-10-02, 04:02 PM
Shouldn't you be paying attention to the game? :smalltongue:

Anyway, I faintly recall being in a game like that once... we were imps, I think, with the possibility to level later, though the game died before that.

Shouldn't you? :smallamused:


Maybe, but in a way I'm trying to avoid you being unique outsides at the beginning and represent the slow crawl up from lemure (okay skipping lemure since you can't really play a lemure) to pit fiend and maybe eventually Duke of Hell. The 1 or more class levels is to give you some customization without totally making you something different. It's only an idea I've been having I'm not sure if it'll come to anything, anyway.

Ah, right. Just a suggestion.

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 04:09 PM
I am now 100% interested in the idea, and I'm trying to see if I can find a list of ECLs anywhere. A diabolic campaign that can actually implement the advancement would be pretty cool.

Edit: :smalleek: Oh, my, Imps have a pretty high level adjustment...

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 04:18 PM
Imps had 7 ECL in 3.0, and are listed as LA: - (Improved Familiar) in 3.5 (you can get one at 7th level).

That said there's a reason I'd be throwing ECL out the window; you're devils and the point is to play devils; whether the PCs would all have to be the same type or not would be up to a vote.

You know what if we're going to talk about a campaign idea, why don't I make an thread "Playing as Devils, Interests and Ideas" and see if anybody has suggestions for that, and let this thread get back on its own rails?

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 04:23 PM
Yeah, probably a good idea. Back on topic, we know that the progenitors to the Tanar'ri are the Obyriths, but what about the Baatezu?

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 04:25 PM
Well there's various fluff for that.

Blood Wars said that the loths were the progenitors of both, although they threw that out with FCI and the Obyriths acting as the progenitors.

Other than that... actually I don't know.

The loths were made by the Baernoloths as were the gehreleths.

Edit: And I went ahead and started that other thread.

Eldan
2010-10-02, 04:29 PM
Yeah, probably a good idea. Back on topic, we know that the progenitors to the Tanar'ri are the Obyriths, but what about the Baatezu?

That would be the ancient baatorians, according to newer sources. Planescape indicated that both Tanar'ri and baatezu were Yugoloth/Baernoloth creations.

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 04:33 PM
Okay, so:

Obyriths -> Tanar'ri
? -> Baatezu
Baernoloths -> Both Yugoloths and Gehreleths
? -> Demodands

Alright, then. So, devils and demons had common ancestry in earlier editions? Interesting. What evil alignment where the Baernoloths? Did the fluff say what caused the racial alignment split?

EDIT: Ancient Baatorians? Was there any source that had further information on those?

Eldan
2010-10-02, 04:35 PM
Baernoloth were neutral evil and made the Yugoloths. Another contestant for original evil. They were big on racial purity and "pure evil", so they purged their race of all lawful and chaotic "taint", thereby creating devils and demons.

Demodand, by the way, are the same thing as Gehreleth.

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 04:36 PM
The Baernoloths were presented in one of the Planescape monstrous compendiums or Planes of Conflict as monsters (looked weaker than ultroloths actually).

Demodands are another name for Gehreleths I believe.

The Baatezu and Tanar'ri were initially larvae (the currency of the Lower Planes) that the yugoloths... argh I don't have the books with me so I might be wrong... they marked and shepherded to Baator and the Abyss I remember that much, I think they actually drove their "imperfections" (Law and Chaos) into the larvae first, though.

Coidzor
2010-10-02, 04:42 PM
Are you familiar with the Devil type known as an 'Orthon'? They're foot troops specialized to fight Demons, though they're pretty effective against anything. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/designdev_orthon.jpg

Oh 12 gods, Strongmad and the Heavy had children. With Luna. an upside down Walrus :smalleek:

Re: Glasya v. Malconthet. Niether one really oozes that essential eau d'succubus. The first one for Malconthet looked positively roman-matronly and the first one for Glasya was all "I've been inspired by the children's tv-show Gargoyles."

Of course, to be fair to the artists, it is hard to combine the motifs for regal and the motifs for being of illicit carnality. Considering if I'm recalling correctly, many of them are either contradictory or mutually exclusive....

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 04:42 PM
So, what were these ancient Baatorians like? Lovecraftian horrors like the Obyriths? Evil Modrons? Where'd they go anyway? I mean, didn't the Fiendish Codex II say that Baator was empty when Asmodeus arrived?

Coidzor
2010-10-02, 04:47 PM
So, what were these ancient Baatorians like? Lovecraftian horrors like the Obyriths? Evil Modrons? Where'd they go anyway? I mean, didn't the Fiendish Codex II say that Baator was empty when Asmodeus arrived?

Well, whatever they were like, the Baatezu actively prevent them from coming back by twisting the larvae that they get into their mindless minions.

Eldan
2010-10-02, 04:49 PM
The Nuperibo is the lowest form of Ancient Baatorian, I think, though the Baatezu keep them from developing.

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 04:50 PM
Well the FCs (both of them) pretty much threw out the old fluff; the Guide to Hell did too (there's a reason it's not Planescape) so you really have to decide which version you're using.

The only mention of what the ancient Baatorians looked like I can remember was in one of the modules that were part of the Blood War box set and it was a huge creature that created magical darkness.

Edit: In FCII it defines nupperibo as the 2nd lowest type of Baatezu only created when a higher ranking devil is demoted back to a least devil. Like I said they threw out the old fluff.

LOTRfan
2010-10-02, 04:54 PM
:smallconfused: So, the old fluff states that the soul larvae transformed into the Baatorians?

The Nupperibos were originally considered lesser forms of Baatorians? Well, then it looks like I'm off to research the old fluff, because these Baatorians intrigue me.

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-02, 05:06 PM
Oh 12 gods, Strongmad and the Heavy had children. With Luna. :smalleek:


Luna? Who's she?

Edit: remembered a few more things about Orthons, updated that post.

Morithias
2010-10-02, 11:13 PM
Oh 12 gods, Strongmad and the Heavy had children. With Luna. an upside down Walrus :smalleek:

Re: Glasya v. Malconthet. Niether one really oozes that essential eau d'succubus. The first one for Malconthet looked positively roman-matronly and the first one for Glasya was all "I've been inspired by the children's tv-show Gargoyles."

Of course, to be fair to the artists, it is hard to combine the motifs for regal and the motifs for being of illicit carnality. Considering if I'm recalling correctly, many of them are either contradictory or mutually exclusive....

How about this? http://media.photobucket.com/image/demon%20queen/Alora_1234/untitled.jpg

Arcane_Secrets
2010-10-03, 12:20 AM
Okay, so:

Obyriths -> Tanar'ri
? -> Baatezu
Baernoloths -> Both Yugoloths and Gehreleths
? -> Demodands

Alright, then. So, devils and demons had common ancestry in earlier editions? Interesting. What evil alignment where the Baernoloths? Did the fluff say what caused the racial alignment split?

EDIT: Ancient Baatorians? Was there any source that had further information on those?

I think according to Planescape that the demodands were created by Apomps, a baernoloth who went rogue in creating them and got thrown out by the rest of the baernoloths. Apomps and the rest of the demodands ended up in Carceri afterwards (which is where they were treated as located in 3rd ed as well-they have stats in Fiend Folio.

Thajocoth
2010-10-03, 02:12 AM
The Blood War is there for several reasons:

#1 - While the forces of Good are just as powerful as the forces of Evil, underhanded tactics that are below Good to use would win the day if the two sides were united against one another. Dividing Evil against itself keeps it in check well enough for Good to usually prevail.

#2 - Evil is more versatile than Good. Often different Evils will have conflicting goals and fight one another. The goals of Good, however, are usually in line with one another, preventing this split among the Good. The Blood War represents this. Good adventurers can only fight Evil... Evil adventurers can fight anything.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 01:44 PM
Slightly random but looking over the Bloodwar books, there is one arch-fiend actively trying to end the war because it's a stupid waste of resources. Graz'zt.

So the only archfiend smart enough to point this out is a Tanar'ri.

LOTRfan
2010-10-03, 02:18 PM
Yes, Graz'zt is out to unite all the fiends and storm the Upper Planes. For this reason, he is more dangerous than either Asmodeus or Demogorgon. Not a very chaotic goal, if you ask me...

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 02:22 PM
Well the upturning of planar balance, and absolute chaos that having the Upper Planes pulled towards Evil would cause, is a very chaotic ends even if his means are somewhat lawful.