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Ravens_cry
2010-10-02, 12:29 PM
For Combat Manoeuvres that replace attack actions, combat manoeuvres like trip, disarm and sundry, does the enhancement bonus of a magic weapon to attack apply to the roll?
I tried asking in the rules thread, but alas, no answerers.
Thank you.

arguskos
2010-10-02, 12:43 PM
According to how the CMB is calculated (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/gamemastering---final/combat---final#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers), the answer is no.

Ravens_cry
2010-10-02, 12:49 PM
According to how the CMB is calculated (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/gamemastering---final/combat---final#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers), the answer is no.
Well, yes, but by that definition a magic weapon wouldn't affect the to-hit of a weapon for a simple attack.
(https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/gamemastering---final/combat---final#TOC-Attack-Bonus)

ericgrau
2010-10-02, 12:52 PM
Since CMB is loosely based off of 3.5 grapple and trip, I'm gonna bet that you don't get to add the weapon enhancement bonus.

arguskos
2010-10-02, 01:01 PM
Well, yes, but by that definition a magic weapon wouldn't affect the to-hit of a weapon for a simple attack.
(https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/gamemastering---final/combat---final#TOC-Attack-Bonus)
Actually, considering that the definition of magic weapons in PF specifically say that they apply to attack and damage rolls, but they say nothing about CMB. CMB has a specific formula, and it does not include your weapon at all. It's also not an actual attack, so that logic doesn't work. Seems very cut and dried to me.

Thane of Fife
2010-10-02, 01:19 PM
To go against the grain, I'll say yes:

Enhancement bonuses from weapons apply to attack rolls, and

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.
Emphasis mine.

Mongoose87
2010-10-02, 01:24 PM
If you look in the Core Rulebook, (not the SRD, I don't know about that) it says that you add bonuses form any effect that would increase your attack roll, and penalties fro many that would decrease it. So, I interpret that as adding enhancement bonuses, and subtracting penalties such as size or from Power Attack.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-02, 01:25 PM
Conversely, you add deflection and dodge bonuses (as well as cover!) to your CMD, so why wouldn't you add attack roll modifiers (such as flanking, or if you're disarming with a magic weapon, the weapons enhancement bonus) to your CMB?

Another_Poet
2010-10-02, 01:27 PM
Way to simplify things, Paizo.

*slow clap*

ericgrau
2010-10-02, 01:41 PM
Between that and consolidating only some of the skills... I would hope that they aren't even trying to simplify things. If anything having any special rules at all might bring awareness that you can perform a special attack as an attack not a standard action. FWIW confusing rules is also a fault of 3.5, but at least you could find the answer after enough searching. Is there any other section of the PF rules that might have a word on this, or are we left in eternal ambiguity?

IMO don't add the weapon enhancement bonuses if you want to maintain compatibility with 3.5, as it was not balanced this way. Changing other things works fine b/c they also change for the monsters, but not weapon enhancement bonuses.

Another_Poet
2010-10-02, 02:09 PM
Is there any other section of the PF rules that might have a word on this, or are we left in eternal ambiguity?

There's no ambiguity. See again:


If you look in the Core Rulebook, (not the SRD, I don't know about that) it says that you add bonuses form any effect that would increase your attack roll, and penalties fro many that would decrease it.


Conversely, you add deflection and dodge bonuses (as well as cover!) to your CMD, so why wouldn't you add attack roll modifiers (such as flanking, or if you're disarming with a magic weapon, the weapons enhancement bonus) to your CMB?

Regarding this:


IMO don't add the weapon enhancement bonuses if you want to maintain compatibility with 3.5, as it was not balanced this way.

Actually it tends to be harder to grapple/trip/etc with Pathfinder's CMB system than it was in 3.5 (because defender gets dex and strength added, not just one or the other). So by adding the weapon enhancement bonus, if if anything, it becomes more similar to 3.5's system.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-10-02, 03:36 PM
To go against the grain, I'll say yes:

Enhancement bonuses from weapons apply to attack rolls, and


When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.


Emphasis mine.


When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.

Emphasis mine. An attack roll is a d20 roll with your attack bonus added, so it should really have just said make a d20 roll and add your CMB.

Sarandosil
2010-10-02, 06:23 PM
I would say yes too. Here's the full Paragraph.


When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

"other effects" pretty much covers everything in my opinion.

Gametime
2010-10-02, 11:43 PM
Emphasis mine. An attack roll is a d20 roll with your attack bonus added, so it should really have just said make a d20 roll and add your CMB.

Then why would they say "make an attack roll?" It seems clear that the intention is that you make an attack roll with a different bonus. There's literally no reason for that language to be present if they didn't intend for it to count as an attack roll, and there is (to my knowledge) no evidence that they didn't intend for it to count as such.

Occam's Razor points to adding enhancement.