PDA

View Full Version : When players won't fight



Katana_Geldar
2010-10-02, 03:38 PM
Last night I was all ready for two great encounters with some really challenging monsters...except they didn't engage. They just ran away from the encounters, and weren't followed because the doors were planular portals.
They miss 1000 xp each and treasure.

Anyone else had this?

WarKitty
2010-10-02, 03:42 PM
Why don't they want to fight? Many of my players would rather talk than fight, usually I have to give them a way to talk through.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-02, 03:48 PM
They said they didn't want to die. Particularly when I did 25 damage in one attack.

And there was no way for them to talk their way out of this fight. They were fighting cursed angels (that I specially got minis for) and undead.

Ravens_cry
2010-10-02, 03:50 PM
Well, while I am sure it stings to have all that effort go to waste,there is some things you can do. One, you can put the fight elsewhere. Two, there should be natural consequences for their fleeing without dealing with the problem. Is there a reason they were meant to fight these creatures, did they threaten something the players cared about? Don't be vindictive though.

eataTREE
2010-10-02, 03:50 PM
Looks like your players think your encounters are on the overtuned side. Perhaps you should pitch them a few softballs to get their confidence back up?

Raging Gene Ray
2010-10-02, 03:53 PM
They said they didn't want to die. Particularly when I did 25 damage in one attack.

25 out of how many hit points? If these are level 10+ Warrior-Types, I'd say your players are being cowardly...but the context is important.

Was this a random encounter or an actual monster? If they had no reason to fight this thing, then yes, that could be justified in-character for almost any alignment.

stenver
2010-10-02, 04:01 PM
Maybe they prefer the talking side of the game?

Just observe which type of game they prefer and build your games accordingly.
DM must bend the world for players, not the other way around. It never ends well, when it is another way around.

My players used to run away from encounter all the time. Or rather, try to evade them, by persuasion or stealth. Encounters were harmful

That is, until they got to >level 8 and made hundreds of damages per round and had many buffs all day long. Then they started bullying people around and bloodlust followed them everywhere. They even slaughtered the militia, virtually started controlling half of metropolis city.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-02, 04:03 PM
I'm running 4E Tomb of Horrors, these were scripted encounters that passed on important information...which the players managed to get without fighting as they jumped in and out of the portals.

And yes, they are level 10. *sigh*

Greenish
2010-10-02, 04:10 PM
I'm running 4E Tomb of Horrors, these were scripted encounters that passed on important information...The script is yours to change. You're not there to do what a computer program could do better (run scripted events), you're there to engage the players.

But if they don't want to fight, a premade module might pose quite some difficulties. Specifically, the desire to stay alive doesn't fit very well with Tomb of Horrors. :smallwink:

Anterean
2010-10-02, 04:23 PM
Specifically, the desire to stay alive doesn't fit very well with Tomb of Horrors. :smallwink:

utterly and completely off topic :
This is easily the funniest thing I have read all day.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-02, 04:26 PM
They've had bad experiences so far, almost dying a few times. And they have managed to solve one puzzle without triggering the encounter.

The problem is they're right outside the last room, with the boss fight next week. And thats going to be the last session for a while, we're not gaming after a while as people have commitments. So...no consequences, yet.

Ashram
2010-10-02, 04:26 PM
Personally, I think this all has to do with the context in which "My players said they don't want to die" was said. If the characters themselves said, "Screw this, I don't wanna die", then while they are cowards, that's completely their choice. However, if the players said, "Screw this, I don't want my character to die" that's some serious metagaming, especially if they ran away frightened from a 25 damage attack.

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-02, 04:35 PM
Tomb of Horrors

There's your problem right there. Since the very beginning, that module has turned great men into blithering cowards. If we ignore this newest version (which is much easier to beat) it has only ever been beaten ONCE in the history of all D&D.

But yes your guys were cowards for running away.

WarKitty
2010-10-02, 04:40 PM
Personally, I think this all has to do with the context in which "My players said they don't want to die" was said. If the characters themselves said, "Screw this, I don't wanna die", then while they are cowards, that's completely their choice. However, if the players said, "Screw this, I don't want my character to die" that's some serious metagaming, especially if they ran away frightened from a 25 damage attack.

Although if one is informed beforehand that one is playing anything named Tomb of Horrors, it is advisable to bring characters that won't run away.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-02, 04:40 PM
The guy who took the damage was the wizard, who's had two close shaves before.

But I've decided not to go easy on them next week. Its not as if I've been nice so far, but I was considering letting a short rest between enemies in the final encounter. They won't get that now, they need to be used to hard encounters and I'm playing it as scripted.

Tiki Snakes
2010-10-02, 04:44 PM
Wait, wait. You are running Tomb of Horrors and you are suprised and annoyed because the players are showing fear?

I really do not think that the appropriate response is to deliberately punish them by ramping the difficulty, that's quite a confrontational move really.

Soranar
2010-10-02, 04:50 PM
drop DM fiat on them :

close the portal behind them, no means of escape

have the monsters chase them

have other monsters chase them into that fight

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-02, 04:50 PM
Hey, who said I was ramping up the encounter? I'm playing it as written and just not giving them the break I didn't needed.

Tiki Snakes
2010-10-02, 04:56 PM
If you had planned on giving them a rest, then you must have identified a need for them to have a rest.

Perhaps I am getting the wrong end of the stick, but the implication I got from the way you phrased things was that because of their actions, you would be running it as higher difficulty than if they had not displeased you. If I am wrong, then my apologies, but that's what I got from your post. :smallsmile:

Lysander
2010-10-02, 05:04 PM
Hey, fleeing is always a valid tactic. Nothing wrong with showing the better part of valor. If you don't want them to run just make sure the enemy has a way of following them.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-02, 05:14 PM
The enemies can't follow, the planular portals...*grumble grumble*

But they don't always get so lucky. No escape in the next dungeon, or the one after that. They won't let you leave.

Lysander
2010-10-02, 05:27 PM
The enemies can't follow, the planular portals...*grumble grumble*

But they don't always get so lucky. No escape in the next dungeon, or the one after that. They won't let you leave.

Why can't enemies enter them? Or make the portals triggered by the enemy's death.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-02, 05:57 PM
They were being clever, should give them a point for that.

The doors were planular portals, and one of them would scout ahead with a rope and communicate through the rope whether the others should follow or pull them back. Consequentally, I never had them all in the rooms with the encounters. Its a little hard to explain without seeing the module.
But I did get to scare them when I sent the wizard's book imp, a ten foot pole with a mouse on the end that the wizard poked through the door and the wizard himself to three different places.

Arbane
2010-10-02, 05:59 PM
You know, not every fight needs to be to the death. What's so awful about the PCs running away once in a while, especially if all that's at stake is some GP and XP? There's plenty more where that came from.

It's not a personal insult, it's just the PCs utilizing their vestigial self-preservation instincts.

Tukka
2010-10-02, 06:15 PM
However, if the players said, "Screw this, I don't want my character to die" that's some serious metagaming, especially if they ran away frightened from a 25 damage attack.
I don't see why it'd be serious metagaming. Not wanting your character to die is normal. Characters not wanting to die is normal. Fear in the face of an opponent capable of dealing a lot of damage in one shot is normal.

The characters' motivations and the players' motivations here are basically the same. The characters and the players basically have the same information available to them (the players' info is a little more precise is all). It'd say it's mild case of metagaming at best.

true_shinken
2010-10-02, 06:18 PM
Sometimes running away should give them the XP anyway...

jiriku
2010-10-02, 06:22 PM
You know, not every fight needs to be to the death. What's so awful about the PCs running away once in a while, especially if all that's at stake is some GP and XP? There's plenty more where that came from.

It's not a personal insult, it's just the PCs utilizing their vestigial self-preservation instincts.

QFT

Take it as a compliment. Your players fear you. That is the highest compliment players can ever give a DM. :smallcool:

The most honor my players have ever done me was when they started drawing lots to see who would collect the treasure from an encounter -- with the loser having to go pick it up. They were afraid of the treasure.

Sniff, sniff. Those guys. I just gotta love 'em.:smallbiggrin:

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-02, 06:37 PM
Haven't thought of it like that, makes me wonder how it'll go later when there's no way back and the only way out is through the monsters. And compared to the next dungeon, this one is a cakewalk.

And I will give them XP for cleverness, but not nearly as much.

elonin
2010-10-02, 06:41 PM
Not sure but I'm guessing that your players are really role playing. I've often wondered why most players consider their characters to be suicidal with the stiff odds they often take. Heroism aside they are supposed to be people too.

BTW there was a comment about only one group getting through Tomb of Horrors. Is that the one in which the group bought a bunch of cattle and used them to set off the traps?

Greenish
2010-10-02, 06:44 PM
BTW there was a comment about only one group getting through Tomb of Horrors. Is that the one in which the group bought a bunch of cattle and used them to set off the traps?That wouldn't be enough. Cattle doesn't tend to stick their appendages to the statue's mouth…

jiriku
2010-10-02, 06:55 PM
Every time I hear these stories about Tomb of Horrors, it makes me want to go get a copy and run it...I'll have to do that one of these days....

Yora
2010-10-02, 06:56 PM
There's your problem right there. Since the very beginning, that module has turned great men into blithering cowards. If we ignore this newest version (which is much easier to beat) it has only ever been beaten ONCE in the history of all D&D.
Tomb of Horror was the only time I've ever seen players telling the gm they don't want to play that game anymore. And we've beeen really patient with the gm having fun at our expanse, but walking into a dungeon just so he can laugh when a completely unpredictable trap is set off turned out to be too much.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-02, 07:25 PM
What I really like about this dungeon is that we're all learning how to play better. I'm learning that I need to let the players pay for their mistakes even if they die and they're learning to not rush in without thinking. Which is why they avoided the encounter, I guess.

Besides, my main problem as a DM is that I'm too nice.

Thanks for your comments.

Agrippa
2010-10-02, 07:56 PM
Tomb of Horror was the only time I've ever seen players telling the gm they don't want to play that game anymore. And we've beeen really patient with the gm having fun at our expanse, but walking into a dungeon just so he can laugh when a completely unpredictable trap is set off turned out to be too much.

Simple, don't go into the Tomb of Horrors. Instead remove the adamantine doors, haul them off to some major city and sell them for scrap. Don't think of the Tomb of Horrors as a dungeon, think of it as one massive IQ test developed a sadistic old wizard. Oh, and give the PCs experience for every gold piece they grab or gold piece worth stuff they find and then sell.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-02, 08:08 PM
Has I clarified it further? I'm playing the commerical superadventure.

Not just the one dungeon but a big campaign we'll be spending months on.

And as for the group that beat it, I heard it was with the crown and the sceptre.

NineThePuma
2010-10-02, 08:22 PM
Some artist beats it by using the crown and scepter? Then they remove that maneuver out of the set up later?

Agrippa
2010-10-02, 08:30 PM
Some artist beats it by using the crown and scepter? Then they remove that maneuver out of the set up later?

That's what WotC did. Gygax disapproved of that alteration.

UserShadow7989
2010-10-02, 08:30 PM
Has I clarified it further? I'm playing the commercial superadventure.

Not just the one dungeon but a big campaign we'll be spending months on.

And as for the group that beat it, I heard it was with the crown and the scepter.


Some artist beats it by using the crown and scepter? Then they remove that maneuver out of the set up later?

Yes, it was the crown and scepter. Threw the crown onto the BBEG's head, touched it with the wrong end of the scepter. Hoist on his own petard. The DM running it ruled it didn't work, but after much debate they got Mr. Gygax himself to rule on it, and he said it worked. Not sure if the crown/scepter were dropped in later versions or not.

big teej
2010-10-02, 08:36 PM
it has only ever been beaten ONCE in the history of all D&D.


challenge accepted........

I need a DM and a group willing to run this....

this could take a while....:smallannoyed:

NineThePuma
2010-10-02, 08:37 PM
I heard that it got taken out later is all. Meh.

Coidzor
2010-10-02, 08:56 PM
Jumping into portals to run away from something in the TOMB OF HORRORS!?

:smalleek:

That's...

That's just wrong.

Yorrin
2010-10-02, 09:14 PM
challenge accepted........

I need a DM and a group willing to run this....

this could take a while....:smallannoyed:

Count me in. As either DM or player. I've run it once before as a DM and would look forward to revisiting it.

The Big Dice
2010-10-02, 09:20 PM
I've run it twice, at least the 3.5 version. Both times it ended the same way: confused looks followed by several dead characters and the survivors realising they can't escape. At which point they fold and give up because they felt there was no way they could make it through with only two living PCs.

Lev
2010-10-02, 09:22 PM
I never get annoyed when the party runs from a fight or finds a way to make it easier instead of kick in the door. I mean, kick in the door is fine but it's much more interesting when players don't spend 30 mins to 3 hours per encounter possibly multiple times per session.

The only problem is when the players screw each other over, like if there is 1 exit to a building and a monster is between 2 of the players and the exit and the 3rd player just runs and the other 2 are out of spells.

Remember all you wayward DM's: DnD is about adventurers, DM's and players alike tend to develop "comicbook complex" where they think it's all about heroes and villains. It's about roleplaying an adventure.

Roland St. Jude
2010-10-02, 09:33 PM
I'm running 4E Tomb of Horrors, these were scripted encounters that passed on important information...which the players managed to get without fighting as they jumped in and out of the portals...


They were being clever, should give them a point for that...

Yes, and probably the XP, too, if the purpose of the encounter was to obtain the information. The DMG is pretty clear that achieving an objective need not involve fighting or killing. I'm sure there are plenty of inescapable or unavoidable encounters in the adventure. If they're cowering in their tents or constantly retreating into a Rope Trick, that'd be a problem, but getting what they came for and skeedaddling, seems like smart play to me.

Erts
2010-10-02, 10:57 PM
Katana, may I point out how apt your avatar is right now?
Well, maybe you should tell your group your concerns, or give them a fight where they can't escape, but let them win to make them more confident.

Thrawn4
2010-10-03, 08:41 AM
I honestly don't see any problem. The players were using every means at their disposal - in this case escape. If you just want them to fight, you don't need a dungeon or a story, only a bunch of random encounters.
Sure, it's kind of annoying when players go off the rails, but as a DM, dealing with these situations is your bread and butter. Punishing players for clever behavior would ruin the point of the game.

Lamech
2010-10-03, 02:34 PM
So... what exactly did the player do wrong here? Why would they want to stick around and fight some monsters if they have what they need?

Generally if your in a dangerous situation and you have no specific objective, your goal defaults to survival; they had their info and they survived. How could that have ended any better for the characters? How would have sticking around to fight helped them out?

aboyd
2010-10-03, 02:46 PM
You know, not every fight needs to be to the death.
I played in a 3.5 campaign with a DM who was of the belief that you should use the challenge ratings for all battles. So every fight was dead even. Of course, the rules for CR are imperfect at best, and so when a fight was too easy or too difficult, she would modify on-the-fly to make it a near-draw.

This sucked. It's fine for a few battles to be a match. But all? Shouldn't the BBEG be overpowering? And shouldn't people also expect... well, minions somewhere? Or easy fights leading into the big battles? It gets exhausting when you realize that the lone bandit on the side of the road is going to be just as hard as the final battle against the dragon. The bandit of course seems absurdly strong, and the dragon seems stupidly crippled.

What's worse, if we ever managed clever battle techniques, it was irrelevant. Every battle had to last 15 rounds and leave us all at 1 HP. So if we managed to have a perfect storm of attacks -- say, all of us being rested and with full spells and when we unleash our best opening salvos we manage to all roll high -- it's irrelevant. Playing well just means the DM quietly doubles their HP so the fight will last as long as it was "supposed" to last.

Annoyingly, it goes the other direction too. We can fight poorly, know that our characters should be dead, and yet the enemies will begin pulling their punches to compensate. The DM even pulled minis off the game board at one point. We were asking, "Wait, did that bad guy turn invisible or something?" And she'd tell us that no, that enemy was never there and we no longer need to worry about it.

So anyway, all of this is to say that the last game we ever played together involved the players finally deciding to play their characters as if they didn't know the DM was railroading the combat. We opened a fight with huge, huge damage all concentrated on 1 monster. We knew the monster should fall halfway through the round at least, but it didn't (because it wasn't "supposed to" yet), and so the other characters pounded it more. When a goblin takes 150 HP of damage in the opening round and the DM describes it as "nah, it's fine," well, we finally had had enough. We played our characters as if they had no idea that the DM would "allow" monsters to die only on rounds 12, 13, 14, and 15. So instead, we flipped out.

Player 1: "Holy crap, seriously? That goblin took HUGE damage, enough to kill some level 20 characters. Are we up against something more powerful than a level 20 character? And it's a goblin? And we're only level nine? Dude, let's get the hell out of here, that monster is impossible!"

DM: "Wait, what?"

Player 2: "Yeah, you're right, there is no way we can continue to do this much damage. We'll be out of spells soon, and it just shrugged off all our big stuff, so our remaining stuff will be too weak. Teleport, anyone?"

DM: "Dimensional anchor!"

Player 3: "Does that affect my character's feet? They still move? Yeah, OK, I just flat-out run away then."

DM: "Argh!"

No more games. We ran away from every battle that night, after every initial round or two ended with "nah, they're fine." The DM got sooo flummoxed. We couldn't see a reason to continue after that.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 02:56 PM
Encounter Level (only individual monsters have CR, encounters have EL) equal to the party's average ECL is not supposed to be even, or near-draw, it's supposed to only take 1/4th of the party's resources, ie. very doable victory.

Of course, that wasn't the biggest problem, it seems. :smalltongue:

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-03, 04:58 PM
Well, here we have XP budget but that's only a guide as you need to know how high your players are capable of rolling. That's why I am slightly tweaking the last encounter mechanics-wise. They are fighting an animated plant, so there needs to be some vulnerability to fire.

Joshinthemosh
2010-10-04, 04:31 PM
challenge accepted........

I need a DM and a group willing to run this....

this could take a while....:smallannoyed:



You have my irrationally large sword. And a meatshield.

Malbordeus
2010-10-04, 07:01 PM
depends on if the apendages are attached.

101 uses for a chunk of meat? :smalltongue:

:EDIT: my own brain swordsaged me. missed an entire page. comment is in referenge to cattle not being able to stick appendages in statues mouths to set off traps.

Lev
2010-10-05, 03:33 AM
We tied ferrets to sticks to lead the way.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-05, 07:44 AM
Tomb of Horror was the only time I've ever seen players telling the gm they don't want to play that game anymore. And we've beeen really patient with the gm having fun at our expanse, but walking into a dungeon just so he can laugh when a completely unpredictable trap is set off turned out to be too much.

Wierd...my players response was basically "That was AWESOME! Do you have anything like that, but tougher?". They had a total of three deaths to beat it, IIRC. Two to the statue, one to the gem. Another one would have been to the elevator, if he didn't have a "avoid death once per day" card. And of course, many close calls.

The tomb rewards the cautious and paranoid. It very efficiently kills off those who don't poke and prod things from a distance, who run headlong into unknown situations, and so forth. Therefore, experienced players do much better in it than inexperienced ones. That makes it a good dungeon. Players fleeing from danger in it(in the few instances where they can), are being smart. It's not the kind of dungeon where you rush from room to room quickly to kill monsters for XP.

Although, it sounds like the 4th ed version is significantly different, hopefully it at least keeps the same spirit of things.

Psyx
2010-10-05, 08:23 AM
I'm running 4E Tomb of Horrors, these were scripted encounters that passed on important information...which the players managed to get without fighting as they jumped in and out of the portals.

And yes, they are level 10. *sigh*

It's their choice, though. No point getting frustrated about it.
If they got the information without bathing in the blood of their foes, then they defeated the encounter and should reap full XP rewards.



But I've decided not to go easy on them next week. Its not as if I've been nice so far, but I was considering letting a short rest between enemies in the final encounter. They won't get that now, they need to be used to hard encounters and I'm playing it as scripted.

You sound like you are frustrated by their choice, and almost punishing them for it.

According to the DMG, 5% of fights are supposed to be overwhelming, and players are supposed to run away sometimes. Better that they were too fast to run on an non-overwhelming encounter, than too slow to run on one that would kill them.
Loosing an hour from the party running is better than an evening of character generation.



drop DM fiat on them :

CHoooooCHooooo!

As a player; I'd despise you if you did that.
In fact, I stopped playing 2E on this very scenario when the GM did pretty much the very thing you've just recommended

Your players aren't mind-readers. All they know is that they are in the most famously deadly dungeon ever written. Who can blame them for running?

LibraryOgre
2010-10-05, 10:37 AM
I'm not clear on why this is a problem.

Your players/the character made the decision that this particular encounter held a significant chance of their own death. They had an avenue of retreat, and took it, rather than throw their lives away.

Not every encounter needs to result in the death of monsters or players. If running away is ALL they do, you have to question why they're adventuring, but occasionally saying "Yeah, we're gonna die. Let's handle this later... or not at all" is just sense.

Killer Angel
2010-10-05, 10:51 AM
If they got the information without bathing in the blood of their foes, then they defeated the encounter and should reap full XP rewards.


It depends if the things are correlated.
If the goal is to bypass a portal guarded by some critters, avoiding the critters and bypassing the portal, gives you full xp.
The way I understood it (I may be wrong), here the goal was to obtain an info. That could be managed fighting or without fighting; in both cases, you certainly gain the XP for the "gather info" step, but the xp for the monster are another thing.
It's not that they actively tried to fool the monsters and obtain the info.
They obtain the info AND then run away when the monsters arrived.
It's like placing an ancient red dragon VS a low level party. If they teleport away, I'm not giving them the dragon's xps.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-05, 11:16 AM
It's not that they actively tried to fool the monsters and obtain the info.
They obtain the info AND then run away when the monsters arrived.
It's like placing an ancient red dragon VS a low level party. If they teleport away, I'm not giving them the dragon's xps.

If the goal is the info, and they get the info, they get full xp for achieving their objective. The xp for the objective should be set accounting for the difficulty in getting it. Powerful guardians mean more xp.

What actually happens to the guardians is irrelevant, so long as the encounter is successfully completed. If they get the info, it's a win. Racking up a body count and risking the party at that point would make little sense.

Killer Angel
2010-10-05, 11:39 AM
If the goal is the info, and they get the info, they get full xp for achieving their objective. The xp for the objective should be set accounting for the difficulty in getting it. Powerful guardians mean more xp.


Except, the guardians weren't there. They scouted the portal with a rope, making experiments, etc.
When the "guardians" appeared, the group run away. At that point, they were no more guardians, but more a random encounter...
If I've understood wrong, correct me.

kc0bbq
2010-10-05, 04:39 PM
Whenever we do RPGA stuff at the local con, my friends and I make sure we fill a whole table, because most players seem to be there just to add more crap to their character sheets.

I missed this game, but it is the stuff of legend. We generally start a module with a theme in mind. That particular time it was "no fighting". It pissed the DM off something fierce. I don't know why, but he took it personally, trying to change rules and adding his own encounters. He kept leaving the table to complain, loudly, to the other DMs. It takes special care to get through (combat-heavy) RPGA modules without ever rolling initiative.

Everyone had fun except him because he saw no importance in anything D&D except the fighting. Every creative solution to a problem (and they were reasonable) was like a personal insult to him.

We usually get a better reaction. Once we had the DM offering bits of pretty high level treasure to our 1st level characters as rewards. He kept having to run and update his friends on our situation. "You wouldn't believe what they are doing now...".

If they won't fight, go with it. It's not You vs. Them unless you're playing Hackmaster. You may have to think outside the prerolled encounters, but there's always a way. They may have to dig themselves out of a deep hole they've created for themselves (sometimes literally), but solving problems is kind of the point. Especially self-inflicted problems. They give the best role play opportunities, anyway.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-05, 04:40 PM
The room existed in different planes, so the guardians weren't there all the time. But they didn't complete the encounters, which required defeating the guardians and completing a skill challenge. They still get the XP, but not as much.