Reopening the issue of V's prophecy

[fibonacciseries]

While rereading, i looked more closely at the Oracles prediction for V.
what he said was: "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons."
even ignoring whether the stutter disqualifies: :vaarsuvius: "I-I must succeed," wouldn't the fact that ze had a little bit of the right reason (ie, saving hir family) mean that it wasn't all the wrong reasons, just mostly?

[AtopTheMountain]

This would be an interesting way to look at it... If the Giant hadn't explicitly said that that was V's prophecy fulfillment.

[fibonacciseries]

This would be an interesting way to look at it... If the Giant hadn't explicitly said that that was V's prophecy fulfillment.

Where did he say that?

also, mightn't he mean that that could be seen as fulfilling the prophecy, but there will be a more satisfying fulfillment later, in the same way that :belkar: giving :roy: the +20 ring of jumping technically fulfilled his prophecy, but it was fulfilled in a better way when he stabbed the oracle?

[Gift Jeraff]

Where did he say that?

also, mightn't he mean that that could be seen as fulfilling the prophecy, but there will be a more satisfying fulfillment later, in the same way that :belkar: giving :roy: the +20 ring of jumping technically fulfilled his prophecy, but it was fulfilled in a better way when he stabbed the oracle?
In the fourth book's commentary.

And that would be the reverse. Belkar killing the Oracle and V accepting the deal were what their prophecies were referring to; Belkar killing Roy was a tease and anything after V's deal with the IFCC would also be some weird, sorta retrospective tease.

[Kish]

Other people have already pointed out Rich debunking this, so I'm just going to address what's online.
1) - does not fill the same punctuation role as ... . I suggest you look both of them up before calling Vaarsuvius' repeating the word "I" a "stutter."
2) Vaarsuvius' real reason for touching the blue orb was to win. S/he made that perfectly clear in the online comic.

[Xykeb Zraliv]

Well, the truth is, Vaarsuvius was not doing it to save his/her family - at least, (s)he did not gain the power itself to do so. The IFCC members gave him/her a perfectly valid (if convoluted and bizarre) alternative, one that would have saved his/her family's lives and saved him/her a lot of trouble.

However, it is made very clear that Vaarsuvius wanted to kill the dragon (him/her)self and, as evidenced by his/her actions after defeating the dragon, to show everybody else just how powerful (s)he had become. Vaarsuvius may not have had no good reason to gain the power, but all the reasons (s)he decided to take the power were wrong. I think that is the key concept here.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Well, the truth is, Vaarsuvius was not doing it to save his/her family - at least, (s)he did not gain the power itself to do so. The IFCC members gave him/her a perfectly valid (if convoluted and bizarre) alternative, one that would have saved his/her family's lives and saved him/her a lot of trouble.

V could and, in my opinion, should have ignored that alternative on the basis that it was so convoluted and relied on factors that may not have come through. But s/he didn't. S/he ignored the alternative on the basis that s/he had to be the one to bring the hurt on the dragon.

Similarly, concerning Azure City, s/he wasn't concerned with the loss of the soldiers lives or the suffering of the Azurites as much as the implication that s/he wasn't a good enough wizard to win the battle.

S/he has changed greatly and has gone from one of my least favorite characters to one of my top 5...maybe 10 when she learned that "pointless" actions that weren't part of the mission (Moving the fleet to a hospitable land, for example) are still significant not because it proves him/her to be a skilled wizard, but because of what it accomplished.

That still, however, doesn't change the fact s/he has Chekov's Gun pointed right at hir (and, by extension, the party and the rest of the world's) head.

[Nimrod's Son]

there will be a more satisfying fulfillment later
I've rarely been more satisfied with any part of any story ever than I was with V's prophecy, so that would really be going some. I somehow don't think bigger explosions will cut it, though.

[Heksefatter]

I would actually be disappointed if this wasn't the fulfillment of V's prophecy. I disagree that it was not satisfying - there was drama, action and character development.

V did speak the four right words for all the wrong reason. S/he was given another option by the IFCC and while (as the imp pointed out) that plan was no good, V was too confused to see that. It was pride and lust for power that motivated hir, rather than being in a true "I have no choice"-situation.

[My2Cents]

I don't mean to get this thread too sidetracked.
And I REALLY dont wont to star another Belkars death argument.

But it just occured to me, when Belkar dies (most probably going to the abyss) and Vaarsuvius has to fulfill his side of the IFCC contract, putting the two of them in a room together could make an awesome punishment for them both :smalltongue:

[HalfTangible]

I don't mean to get this thread too sidetracked.
And I REALLY dont wont to star another Belkars death argument.

But it just occured to me, when Belkar dies (most probably going to the abyss) and Vaarsuvius has to fulfill his side of the IFCC contract, putting the two of them in a room together could make an awesome punishment for them both :smalltongue:

Are you kidding me? Locking V and Belkar in a room so they can duke it out is all they've ever wanted (aside from Ultimate cosmic power and the kitty) XD

[Thajocoth]

I wonder if, when the comic eventually ends, people on the boards will continue for several years to say that it's not actually over yet...

[curtis]

I wonder if, when the comic eventually ends, people on the boards will continue for several years to say that it's not actually over yet...

Sigging that, if you don't mind...

[derfenrirwolv]

I wonder if, when the comic eventually ends, people on the boards will continue for several years to say that it's not actually over yet...

Be honest. Do you wonder, or do you KNOW that's going to happen?

[Kareasint]

Having read the commentary in DStP, V's Prophecy has been fulfilled. The acceptance was for all the wrong reasons in that there was a chance to save the family via another method. V's motivation for accepting the deal was to kill the Dragon hirself. (S)he refused to accept any other solution beside hir power being use to solve the situation.

The author of the story has stated that the prophesy has been fulfilled for V. I can accept this and move on. I am more interested in seeing how Belkar dies. He seems to have most of the world aligned against him.

[Ancalagon]

Vaarsuvius' Mate also sums the problem up right before leaving. He/she pretty much understood what all that "Quest for Ultimate Power" was about.

[Swordpriest]

Well, the truth is, Vaarsuvius was not doing it to save his/her family - at least, (s)he did not gain the power itself to do so. The IFCC members gave him/her a perfectly valid (if convoluted and bizarre) alternative, one that would have saved his/her family's lives and saved him/her a lot of trouble.

Perfectly valid? Let's see -- the imp would have to saw V's head off. Then, Durkon would need to cast resurrection -- 10 minutes casting time. Sending to Aarindarius is quick because of the scroll, but we're talking 20 minutes minimum anyway. As it was, V reached his house within a minute or two of the dragon teleporting out, and the creature's work was almost done. And this, of course, is based on the assumption that Aarindarius is willing and able to go up against a dragon instantaneously after a sending arrives.

That's not a valid alternative, that's a 100% chance of failure.

As for V feeling guilty about being unable to save the soldiers because of insufficient power -- well, I'll tell you, in reality, you're probably not going to find one instance of guilt where the person doesn't feel responsibility to one degree or another. In fact, I'd say that guilt inevitably involves a send of either personal culpability or personal inadequacy.

Why it's a crime for V to feel guilt in a perfectly normal way is beyond me. :smallconfused:

[137beth]

V could and, in my opinion, should have ignored that alternative on the basis that it was so convoluted and relied on factors that may not have come through. But s/he didn't. S/he ignored the alternative on the basis that s/he had to be the one to bring the hurt on the dragon.

Similarly, concerning Azure City, s/he wasn't concerned with the loss of the soldiers lives or the suffering of the Azurites as much as the implication that s/he wasn't a good enough wizard to win the battle.

That still, however, doesn't change the fact s/he has Chekov's Gun pointed right at hir (and, by extension, the party and the rest of the world's) head.

Yes. If (s)he just wanted to save hir family, s/he would have ended the spell right after killing the dragon (or possibly after the famillicide).

[curtis]

Perfectly valid? Let's see -- the imp would have to saw V's head off. Then, Durkon would need to cast resurrection -- 10 minutes casting time. Sending to Aarindarius is quick because of the scroll, but we're talking 20 minutes minimum anyway. As it was, V reached his house within a minute or two of the dragon teleporting out, and the creature's work was almost done. And this, of course, is based on the assumption that Aarindarius is willing and able to go up against a dragon instantaneously after a sending arrives.

All true, but V wasn't thinking of that. She was too confused to see the shortcomings, and only chose the alternate plan in order to preserve her own ego.

[zimmerwald1915]

Perfectly valid? Let's see -- the imp would have to saw V's head off. Then, Durkon would need to cast resurrection -- 10 minutes casting time. Sending to Aarindarius is quick because of the scroll, but we're talking 20 minutes minimum anyway. As it was, V reached his house within a minute or two of the dragon teleporting out, and the creature's work was almost done. And this, of course, is based on the assumption that Aarindarius is willing and able to go up against a dragon instantaneously after a sending arrives.
There's also the issue of whether or not Durkon would want to resurrect V at all. To Durkon, it would appear that V had been consorting with devils, and V had done nothing but antagonize Durkon for the better part of a year. Durkon has no reason to not let the elf stay dead, and V knows this.

All this makes little difference, of course. V's actions were irrevocable, her repentance insincere as far as it's possible to determine, and the reasoning underlying her actions - sure, other people deserve to exist...if you're my sort of person - apparently not that uncommon.

[Conuly]

I wonder if, when the comic eventually ends, people on the boards will continue for several years to say that it's not actually over yet...

At least it will relieve the tedium of post after post of "I know we aren't supposed to discuss the update schedule...." and "I'm new here. When do new comics come out?"

[RMS Oceanic]

Perfectly valid? Let's see -- the imp would have to saw V's head off. Then, Durkon would need to cast resurrection -- 10 minutes casting time. Sending to Aarindarius is quick because of the scroll, but we're talking 20 minutes minimum anyway. As it was, V reached his house within a minute or two of the dragon teleporting out, and the creature's work was almost done. And this, of course, is based on the assumption that Aarindarius is willing and able to go up against a dragon instantaneously after a sending arrives.

That's not a valid alternative, that's a 100% chance of failure.

And Qarr noticed this. And the IFCC acknowledged it. And Rich acknowledged it in the DSTP commentary. While we're all in agreement the plan wouldn't have worked, Vaarsuvius believed it could have worked, and it's what exhausted panicky time-pressed V believed at the time that's most relevant. By accepting the deal when an alternative is apparently available, V is admitting that saving h** family comes second to proving h** arcane might.

[Gift Jeraff]

Not to mention, Durkon wasn't even on the boat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html). But V didn't know that, just as V was ignorant to Resurrection's casting time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html).

[Xykeb Zraliv]

Er, yeah, you guys are pretty much all right. That's not really what I meant, but I notice now that it was worded horribly and implied that I thought the plan would have worked, which it wouldn't have. I think I must have meant to make some sort of reference to the fact that V thought it was a "perfectly valid alternative" despite that not being the case, although I can't really remember anymore. Anyway, I pretty much agree with most everything that's been said regarding the issue...except my own comment, I guess. Wasn't thinking straight when I said that, slipped up a bit.

Actually, the same thing sort of applies now, so I probably shouldn't even be here right now.

[Dr.Epic]

Since the Giant said it happened, then that's it really. I still find it hard to believe that that was complete and total arcane power. Maybe V just wasn't using it right, but when I think "complete and total arcane power" I imagine something more powerful than Galactus, Dr. Manhattan, and Teggen Toppa Gurren Lagann combined, not something that could be smacked around by a lich, goblin, and a chick with undead issues.

[Conuly]

Since the Giant said it happened, then that's it really. I still find it hard to believe that that was complete and total arcane power. Maybe V just wasn't using it right, but when I think "complete and total arcane power" I imagine something more powerful than Galactus, Dr. Manhattan, and Teggen Toppa Gurren Lagann combined, not something that could be smacked around by a lich, goblin, and a chick with undead issues.

Well, the thing is that those guys have an understanding of elemental strategy, and more self-control.

V? Not so much. V had the power, but couldn't use it.

[Dr.Epic]

Well, the thing is that those guys have an understanding of elemental strategy, and more self-control.

V? Not so much. V had the power, but couldn't use it.

Even so. You have complete power. Unlimited power one might say. Why not just blink you eyes and teleport half of Azure City to the lower planes. S/he did that with a fleet of ships (except, you know, not to another plane). What, could the elven wizard who studied arcane practices for like a century really not conceive maybe I should strike far from a distance instead of basically entering a close ranged smack fight with magic?

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius has only himself/herself to blame if s/he assumed "complete and total ultimate arcane power" meant "omnipotence." Forum agreement with that assumption aside, it was an assumption.

[Conuly]

Even so. You have complete power. Unlimited power one might say. Why not just blink you eyes and teleport half of Azure City to the lower planes. S/he did that with a fleet of ships (except, you know, not to another plane). What, could the elven wizard who studied arcane practices for like a century really not conceive maybe I should strike far from a distance instead of basically entering a close ranged smack fight with magic?

Apparently not. If V could've conceived of the easier, better route, things would be different and we wouldn't be talking now.

[curtis]

Even so. You have complete power. Unlimited power one might say. Why not just blink you eyes and teleport half of Azure City to the lower planes. S/he did that with a fleet of ships (except, you know, not to another plane). What, could the elven wizard who studied arcane practices for like a century really not conceive maybe I should strike far from a distance instead of basically entering a close ranged smack fight with magic?

Because she's V. It was just as much about her ego as destroying Xykon; she wanted to prove that she was superior, it's what she does.

Also, Ultimate=/=Unlimited.

[Ranylyn]

Since the Giant said it happened, then that's it really. I still find it hard to believe that that was complete and total arcane power. Maybe V just wasn't using it right, but when I think "complete and total arcane power" I imagine something more powerful than Galactus, Dr. Manhattan, and Teggen Toppa Gurren Lagann combined, not something that could be smacked around by a lich, goblin, and a chick with undead issues.

Vaarsuvius, in Comic 667

"I squandered its true potential by wielding it like a cudgel. Only when I lost it did I stop to consider what I was doing, and only then did I become effective."

Link: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html

Give a level 1 warrior the ultimate sword, and it'll make him an egomaniac with no need for strategy. A warrior who works hard for each level gains more insight into how to best use his abilities. For mages, it's far beyond this. If you squander your high level spells frivolously, you're doomed regardless. V had just come into power that was best used wisely, and of course, treated it like a hammer and bashed away at a castle with it, so to speak. Losing it, and faced with Xykon, THAT's when V began to use his or her head.

The power may have been complete and total, but V wasn't ready to use it properly.

[Nimrod's Son]

when I think "complete and total arcane power" I imagine something more powerful than Galactus, Dr. Manhattan, and Teggen Toppa Gurren Lagann combined, not something that could be smacked around by a lich, goblin, and a chick with undead issues.
So many people overlook the fact that V only had the "ultimate arcane power" when he fought the dragon. He was severely weakened by the time he got to Xykon.

[Scarlet Knight]

I believe the stutter was a red herring and the 4 words are yet to be uttered.

[Nimrod's Son]

I believe the stutter was a red herring and the 4 words are yet to be uttered.
Uh-huh. And where do you stand on the whole "spherical Earth" malarkey?

[kyoryu]

I believe the stutter was a red herring and the 4 words are yet to be uttered.

And I believe that the trees are epileptic.

[Scarlet Knight]

Uh-huh. And where do you stand on the whole "spherical Earth" malarkey?

Well, to quote Marx:
"Your proposition may be good,
But let's have one thing understood,
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
And even when you've changed it or condensed it,
I'm against it."