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PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-10-02, 04:35 PM
Assume I'm playing a sorcerer gish. Besides how awesome spells are supposed to be, I am having difficulty find useful spells at these levels that stay useful to level 20.

True strike for instance does not lose its value.

I have all the usual bases covered (like mind blank, true seeing and all the divination I will ever need). Assume I'm up against optimized opponents who laugh at normal spells like disintegrate or mass charm monster.

For the 4th level spell, I'm looking for something equal to or a bit less useful than polymorph. A spell like greater invisibility, however, is useless because of true sight.

For the 8th level spells, I'm looking for something more useful than maze (casters are smart and will just bust out in a turn, with no net gain for me).

Fax Celestis
2010-10-02, 04:38 PM
Temporal stasis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm) has been one of my perennial 8th level favorites.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-10-02, 04:40 PM
Hmm yes that is more useful than maze. Unfortunately the take-them-alive sort of disable spell is already covered. Still, nice.

Cieyrin
2010-10-02, 04:44 PM
Ray Deflection (SpC 166) is a nice "Screw you and your damn Orbs" effect and anything else that uses ranged touched attacks, not just rays.

Assay Spell Resistance, Know Vulnerabilities, Ruin Delver's Fortune and Spell Enhancer all maintain their utility as well, though Know Vulnerabilities probably needs to be Contingencied or Quickened later on, so you're not just using your sensors that round.

WeeFreeMen
2010-10-02, 04:47 PM
I assume we are talking about 3.5 based on your spell selections..
and I'm guessing all books allowed? Also assuming your a Wizard..

If thats the case, here are some I like: All selected from Spell Compendium 2
4th level:
Dispelling Screen
Ray Deflection*
Orb of XXX
Assay Spell Resistance
Fore XXX
Vortex of Teeth
Wingbind
Metal Melt
Voice of the Dragon*

8th level:
SPELL ENGINE*<--GET THIS! NOW!
Bestow Curse, Greater*
Blackfire
Heart of Stone
Invisibility, Superiour <-- GET THIS, your Party <Melee Stick> will love you.
Wall of Greater Dispel Magic: Nice for area defense, or your Wizard castle.

Edit: *'d spells for the ones I think you should get.

Lysander
2010-10-02, 05:02 PM
4th level
Dimension Door - Short range teleportation is always useful
Dimensional Anchor - Stopping enemies from teleporting is always useful
Animate Dead - Not so useful in high level combat, but skeleton minions are always handy for brute labor.
Shout - Not everyone prepares to resist sonic damage. The burst also makes it handy for taking out a crowd of low level minions.
Vortex of Teeth - Vortex of Teeth
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Hollow cylinder (40 ft. radius, 20 ft. high with a 5-ft.-radius safe zone at the center)
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

A vortex of teeth manifests as a swirling, spiraling storm of magically created incorporeal piranha that swim through the surrounding region. Unfortunately for creatures in the area of effect, the ravenous teeth of the magic piranha solidify upon contact with flesh. All creatures in the area of effect of a vortex of teeth take 2d6 points of damage per round. A successful Reflex save halves this damage. The damage caused is a force effect, and thus bypasses damage reduction and can harm incorporeal creatures. Objects cannot be damaged by a vortex of teeth.

Material Component: A piranha's tooth.
Sandform-Sandform
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute/level

When you cast this spell, your body, along with all equipment worn or carried, transforms into living sand. You take the form of an ooze, and you are immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and polymorphing, for the duration of the spell. You can still be affected by mind-affecting spells since, unlike oozes, you still possess a mind and retain your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You are not subject to critical hits or flanking. You become blind, but gain the blindsight special quality, which allows you to sense vibrations and subtle changes in the air around you, granting you "vision" of a sort to a range of 60 feet.

You also retain your base attack bonus, base saves, alignment, level, class, type (and subtype), extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not your supernatural abilities. You can cast spells for which you have components. The new form can be disorienting. Any time you are in a demanding situation (such as combat), you must succeed at a Will save (DC 19) or suffer a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saves, skill checks, and ability checks until the situation passes. Upon death, you revert to your original form.

Your new form makes you difficult to kill, and, as a result, you gain a number of bonus hit points equal to your size, as detailed on the following table.
Your Size Bonus
Hit Points
Tiny or smaller --
Small 5
Medium-size 10
Large 15
Huge 20
Gargantuan 30
Colossal 40

While in sand form, you have a speed of 20 feet. You can pass through openings as small as a quarter of an inch in diameter, although passing through an opening two size categories smaller than you takes a full round action. You also gain a natural attack: an abrasive slam with a gritty pseudopod that grants 5 additional feet of reach. The number of times you can attack with this pseudopod each round is determined by your base attack, and you apply 1.5 times your Strength bonus on any damage done as if you were attacking with a two-handed weapon. A successful hit does a base of 1d8 points of slashing and bludgeoning damage.

In sandy deserts or on sandy beaches, you gain a +10 circumstance bonus on all Hide checks and one-quarter concealment (attacks against you suffer a 10% miss chance). This natural attack form is the only natural attack form you can use while in this state.

Material Component: A handful of sand taken from an elemental with the earth subtype.



8th level
Trap the Soul - Good for getting rid of enemies permanently
Clone - A good Plan B.
Polymorph Any Object - Broken overpowered spell FTW
Create Greater Undead - More powerful minions, hurray

Eldariel
2010-10-02, 05:19 PM
Don't forget, Maze is decent against e.g. Clerics and Druids. And Sorcerers. There's a lot of non-Int based casters who are very much equal threats to the Int-based ones. Plane Shift works, yes, but it's a very imprecise spell that tosses you...somewhere. Then you need Teleport too, and not all non-Wizard casters have easy access to that.


Anyways, level 4:
- Wings of Flurry is a v. good spell as it doesn't cap, and as a Gish you'll be in the thick of things a lot. It's a fine Save-or-have-me-beat-the-tar-outta-your-Dazed-body combined with somewhat respectable CLd6 damage (so I'd expect ~23-24d6 on 20 without work).
- Assay Resistance if you have any resistance-allowing spells is a near-must.
- Celerity is relatively obvious, for a melee type too. If you don't skip the Daze, it's a rather fair spell and definitely gives you lots of good offensive and defensive options.
- Greater Mirror Image is a decent defensive level 4 spell. Yes, it's beaten by True Sight but I wouldn't expect everyone to have non-magical True Sight available constantly (especially since the spell has a material component) and you can easily Disjunction anyone trying to use the spell to protect them (all the while taking out most of their protections too). Do note tho that defensively, Celerity is obviously more reliable.
- Heart of Earth goes great with the other Heart-spells to give you some useful protections at hour/level stage.
- Spell Enhancer is very useful if you have CL-dependent spells in your repertoire (like Maw of Chaos or Wings of Flurry; unfortunately most of the Gishy spells cap out at 20 though)
- Solid Fog/Enervation/Dimension Door/Otiluke's Resilient Sphere are all respectable level 4 spells, but of course, you've probably considered the Core options already.

Level 8:
- Greater Plane Shift is nice; it's only level higher than standard Plane Shift for a Wiz/Sorc and it's precise.
- Greater Celerity is like Celerity except it doubles as a full round attack, or allows you to cast spell and move. It's a huge spell level investment but it's not horrible though Twin Celerity is often better.
- Ghostform is decent, as incorporeality comes with perks such as being able to move through walls without being ethereal (and thus being a pain to detect) and stuff like that.
- Veil of Undeath is a decent 10 min/level buff, if at a tad high cost. Still, it's Death Ward + Immunity to Crits + Immunity to Paralysis/Stun + Immunity to Fatigue + Immunity to Mind-Affecting with one spell so it makes the list of buffs you need shorter if nothing else.
- Polymorph Any Object and Greater Planar Binding if you feel like breaking stuff. Though I'm sure you don't. Still, worth noting that Greater Planar Binding gains huge benefit out of you being Cha-based.
- Oh, and Project Image is obviously still awesome if you have any offensive casting. Who cares if they know it's not real when it can still blow them up forcing them to deal with it or find you (which you can make hard if you feel like it). And Dimensional Lock has its uses; doesn't offer a save after all.

Ernir
2010-10-02, 05:28 PM
Got Greater Arcane Fusion yet?

The only level 4 spell I have to add to Eldariel's list is Ruin Delver's Fortune (SpC).

Also assuming your a Wizard.. He said assume Sorcerer gish. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-10-02, 05:31 PM
Got Greater Arcane Fusion yet?

The only level 4 spell I have to add to Eldariel's list is Ruin Delver's Fortune (SpC).
He said assume Sorcerer gish. :smalltongue:

Oh yeah, definitely those two too.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 05:42 PM
I don't remember the spell level, but streamers is infamous. d8/level untyped (IIRC) damage for almost any action. It is found...in shinning south??

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-02, 05:46 PM
For 8th level spells:

Dimension Lock. No more having to worry about RTA's with a DimAnchor, this just flat keeps them from porting anywhere.

Mind Blank. Immunity to the Divination school and min-affecting. Always nice.

Greater Prying Eyes. True Sight without the expensive material component!

Greater Shadow Evocation. This is your Forcecage and your Contingency and any other Evocation spell you'd like to cast. But mostly for those two.

Polymorph Any Object. Behold, the power of cheese.

For 4th level spells:

Black Tentacles. Lockdown anything without superior grapple modifiers.

Solid Fog. No save, just slow it down, bub.

Enervation. Negative levels are fun.

Greater Invisibility. Your party rogue will love you for it

Fear. Save or loose, but beware immunities.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-10-03, 03:47 AM
Actually since these are lower level effects I have access to just about any spell list (not psionics obviously)
Defense against spells actually isn't a problem so ray deflection is out.
SR also isn't a problem either so I'm looking for no save effects. :)
Its a shame I don't prepare spells because spell engine is neat.

I don't need to make undead since I could get some if I want.
I don't need extra teleportation and I can already stop casters from doing the same.
I'm not impressed with vortex of teeth though the fluff rocks.
I love sandform but I'm using items for their Su's :(
I already have soul destruction
Polymorph was already out. PAO is ew

Eldariel, wings of flurry is respectable but evasion + high reflex is :(
I should have mentioned Celerity already, my bad
Do you mean heart of stone?
I did not know about greater Plane shift but I already have the normal one
I've looked at project image. It's close

where is Greater Arcane Fusion from?

Streamers is 5

I have contingency, shneekey
I anticipate FoM
I actually move more, so I don't want fogs

Eldariel
2010-10-03, 05:34 AM
Do you mean heart of stone?

Heart of Earth is one of the "Heart of..." line in Complete Mage. It's a series of hour/level buffs that have a constant effect, an effect that burns the duration, and a combined effect when they're all active simultaneously.


I did not know about greater Plane shift but I already have the normal one

I'd consider the switch; Greater works not only as Plane Shift but also as Greater Teleport of sorts as you arrive where you want to.


where is Greater Arcane Fusion from?

Complete Mage.

Seatbelt
2010-10-03, 05:50 AM
What is your build, and what does Spell Engine do? I'm in Egypt and about 2,000 miles AFB.

Roc Ness
2010-10-03, 07:02 AM
If you are a Sorcerer gish, you might want to look at Thunderlance (SC) for your fourth level spell.

As a Gish spell, the benefits run thusly:
- Can be full-attacked with, and wielded two-handed. Does 3d6 (20/x3) base damage.
- Charisma to Attack and Damage rolls instead of Strength
- Deals force damage (bypass all DR)
- SR: No
- 20ft reach! :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-03, 01:55 PM
Actually since these are lower level effects I have access to just about any spell list (not psionics obviously)
Defense against spells actually isn't a problem so ray deflection is out.
SR also isn't a problem either so I'm looking for no save effects. :)
Its a shame I don't prepare spells because spell engine is neat.

I don't need to make undead since I could get some if I want.
I don't need extra teleportation and I can already stop casters from doing the same.
I'm not impressed with vortex of teeth though the fluff rocks.
I love sandform but I'm using items for their Su's :(
I already have soul destruction
Polymorph was already out. PAO is ew

Eldariel, wings of flurry is respectable but evasion + high reflex is :(
I should have mentioned Celerity already, my bad
Do you mean heart of stone?
I did not know about greater Plane shift but I already have the normal one
I've looked at project image. It's close

where is Greater Arcane Fusion from?

Streamers is 5

I have contingency, shneekey
I anticipate FoM
I actually move more, so I don't want fogs

There is still Black Tentacles and Enervation for your 4th level spells.

If you pick up Greater Shadow Evocation, you can turn in your Contingency for a different 6th level spell, and also have forcecage/wall of force/Prismatic Spray/Telekenetic Sphere/Resilient Sphere/etc...

Eldariel
2010-10-03, 05:55 PM
There is still Black Tentacles and Enervation for your 4th level spells.

If you pick up Greater Shadow Evocation, you can turn in your Contingency for a different 6th level spell, and also have forcecage/wall of force/Prismatic Spray/Telekenetic Sphere/Resilient Sphere/etc...

Black Tentacles don't age well. They are awesome against contemporary foes but come higher levels, martial types never fail the Grapple-check, nevermind Freedom of Movement, Quickened teleports, etc.

Malbordeus
2010-10-03, 06:45 PM
hmm, now i know i'm going to get sacked in the face by the entire forum for suggesting it, but 'Power Word: Stun'

other 8th level spells probably include Symbol of insanity and Horrid Wilting, outside possibility of prismatic wall.

4th level, depending on your other spells - heart of earth? Finger of Agony (multiple duration debuff) assay resistance, and i remember a spell that was a swift casting that bumped the save DC's of the next spell cast by 2... cant remember the name for the life of me.

a lot depends on your sorcerors feats really.

ShriekingDrake
2010-10-03, 06:49 PM
There have been a lot of good suggestions about spells. But I can see that this is a complicated character. Perhaps if you shared more details about the character, we might be able to provide more useful recommendations. That is, once we haver a sense of the character's strengths and weaknesses, we could be more useful to you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-03, 10:28 PM
Black Tentacles don't age well. They are awesome against contemporary foes but come higher levels, martial types never fail the Grapple-check, nevermind Freedom of Movement, Quickened teleports, etc.

I disagree. You are not often facing opponents with Freedom of Movement already active, and you still need to make a Concentration check to cast in a grapple, even if you don't have somatic components to the spell. In fact, it's ONLY possible IF you have no somatic components. Concentration check DC 20+spell level. Granted, it is simple to min/max your concentration checks, but how many think to do so? Typically, min/maxing skills happens to Spellcraft for Incantatrix cheese, I don't know many who actually go through the trouble for their concentration checks. Which are Con based. Which most wizards don't have a whole lot of.

Also, when I mentioned DimLock, he said he already had ways to keep people from teleporting, so using that method to get out of Black Tentacles isn't going to work.

Eldariel
2010-10-04, 09:38 AM
I disagree. You are not often facing opponents with Freedom of Movement already active, and you still need to make a Concentration check to cast in a grapple, even if you don't have somatic components to the spell. In fact, it's ONLY possible IF you have no somatic components. Concentration check DC 20+spell level. Granted, it is simple to min/max your concentration checks, but how many think to do so? Typically, min/maxing skills happens to Spellcraft for Incantatrix cheese, I don't know many who actually go through the trouble for their concentration checks. Which are Con based. Which most wizards don't have a whole lot of.

Also, when I mentioned DimLock, he said he already had ways to keep people from teleporting, so using that method to get out of Black Tentacles isn't going to work.

Freedom of Movement is 10 min/level. It's trivial to keep active all day on level 18+, and easily worth it. And Heart of Water is the same for Wizards. Not to mention Ring of Freedom of Movement for those who somehow can't. And every decent caster has maxed Con. You don't need to optimize it; it simply scales faster than the DC. Level 18 caster has Concentration 21+Con, for example, so easily +26 (with 14 base Con and +6 item; standard stuff). He won't be failing anything under 8th/9th level spells and that's without any item-based bonuses.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-04, 09:54 AM
Definitely get Ray Deflection, it automatically blocks all touch attacks. Incorporeal touches? Blocked. Ranged touch spells? Blocked. Wraithstrike attacks? Blocked. Initial touch to attempt a grapple or trip? Blocked. This spell is on par with Freedom of Movement, as it automatically negates an entire list of effects instead of granting a bonus, it's completely unfair to your opponents.

Consider taking Superior Invisibility, assuming Mind Blank can block True Seeing. If not, get an Eternal Wand of Nondetection, or the Masking armor property, or preferably a Hat of Anonymity which was created by someone with a caster level of 20+. According to the DMG errata (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) an item's caster level is based on the creator's caster level, so creating a Hat of Anonymity at caster level 20 will give its Nondetection effect a DC of 35, and the item won't cost any more than the listed price. Monsters with True Seeing as a supernatural ability use their HD as their caster level when attempting to see through Nondetection.

Don't forget about Spellstaves in MIC.

hamishspence
2010-10-04, 10:01 AM
Prices are also dependant on caster levels:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues

So even if you could find a CL20 Hat of Anonymity, you'd have to pay more.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-04, 10:10 AM
Prices are also dependant on caster levels:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues

So even if you could find a CL20 Hat of Anonymity, you'd have to pay more.

Not so, read the DMG errata I linked. You create the item, based on its prerequisites, for its listed price. The item's caster level is then set based on the creator's caster level. Most magical items are not based on the table you linked, and magical items already in existence which already have a listed price would not need their price recalculated.

For example, the Speed weapon property has Craft Arms/Armor and Haste as its prerequisites, and a normal caster level of 7th (for items recovered as treasure with this property). A Wizard 5 could meet those prerequisites, and add that property to a weapon, but in doing so the caster level of the item would be set to 5th instead of 7th. This wouldn't make the item any cheaper, as per RAW the price is already set in stone and a variation in caster level will not change that. The same goes for the Hat of Anonymity, the price is already set in stone regardless of what the creator's caster level is. The Masking armor property would work the same way, but it has a set DC built into the item's description so increasing the caster level will be of no benefit.

hamishspence
2010-10-04, 10:15 AM
Items for which the caster level makes no difference should follow the listed price, yes.

But when caster level makes a huge difference, it becomes a question of "Will the DM allow you to find or buy items with a caster level higher than the default?"

Even if you're making your own- DM's discretion can come into play.

The basic principle for an item is- that if it duplicates a spell, the price is based on the CL as well as the level of the spell.

Why should that be set aside for, say, a hat of anonymity?

The tables on the Pricing Items section of the SRD explicitly call out wands and scrolls as being priced based on the assumption that they're created at the minimum caster level. However the same principle can apply to any item being created at a higher caster level than the norm.

If you're paying for continuous Nondetection- and CL makes a huge difference to effectiveness- the price of the item will go up accordingly.

Just as if you buy a CL10 Wand of Fireball, it will cost more than a CL5 one.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-04, 10:53 AM
Wands are specifically priced based on their caster level. Wondrous items, arms/armor, rings, etc. have a set price for each item, and if no variance is listed then the price will not change. You cannot create an item at a lower caster level to make it cheaper, and you do not have to pay any more than normal if the creator happens to have a higher caster level then what that item typically has, RAW.

hamishspence
2010-10-04, 10:58 AM
If your caster level is high, you can create an item at it's minimum caster level (but no lower).

Thrawn183
2010-10-04, 11:02 AM
Edit: Double Post, sorry.

Thrawn183
2010-10-04, 11:04 AM
Well, assuming that you have quickened True Strike, Irresistable Dance is an amazing touch spell. I would definitely put it above Temporal Stasis. No Save. Actually, because of how touch spells work, you won't really need True Strike on a gish.

hamishspence
2010-10-04, 11:40 AM
After a quick look at the errata, it seems even more unclear than the statement it's supposed to replace.


Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215
Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster
Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the
caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster
level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

The original statement was:


For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).

"The caster level is determined by the creator" does not mean "The caster level is always the same as the creator's caster level"- otherwise it wouldn't have given a minimum caster level immediately afterwards.

And if the creator's caster level is higher than that given for the item, this does not mean that the item is automaticlally created at the higher CL.

If the creator can determine the caster level- they can choose to have it as the item's level. A hat of anonymity is CL7 in Magic Item Compendium. Therefore all examples of a hat of anonymity will be CL7 unless the DM chooses otherwise.

The RAW in MiC says hats of anonymity are CL7- therefore any that are not CL7 are not RAW- they are homebrew.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-04, 12:22 PM
The RAW in MiC says hats of anonymity are CL7- therefore any that are not CL7 are not RAW- they are homebrew.

100% incorrect, you're taking text out of context:

Caster Level

The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form "CL x," where "CL" is an abbreviation for caster level and "x" is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

Prerequisites

Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).

When two spells at the end of a list are separated by "or," one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two.

Market Price

This gold piece value, given following the word "Price," represents the price someone should expect to pay to buy the item. The market price for an item that can be constructed with an item creation feat is usually equal to the base price plus the price for any components (material or XP).

Cost to Create

The next part of a notational entry is the cost in gp and XP to create the item, given following the word "Cost." This information appears only for items with components (material or XP), which make their market prices higher than their base prices. The cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components.

Items without components do not have a "Cost" entry. For them, the market price and the base price are the same. The cost in gp is ½ the market price, and the cost in XP is 1/25 the market price.

RAW says the example item, which is as the item would appear if discovered in play, is CL 7. RAW says that if this item were created during play using the item creation rules, "the caster level is determined by the creator." The Hat of Anonymity has a set-in-stone RAW 'Cost to Create' entry. If creating this item, you pay the RAW cost of creation, and you follow the RAW on item creation including setting the created item's caster level based on the creator's caster level.

hamishspence
2010-10-04, 01:33 PM
If the Cost to Create, is set in stone, the CL is set in stone.

The Cost to Create, in the item entry, and the market price- in the item entry- only apply to an item with the given caster level.

And especially if the item would be vastly better with a higher Caster Level.

Since a higher caster level, makes a Nondetection item significantly better then if you want something better, you must pay for it being better.

"The caster level is determined by the creator" does not give the character licence to create vastly better versions of the sample items, at the same price as the sample items.

That would be rules abuse.

Think of it this way- if a DM was told by a player:

"I want to create a CL20 Hat of Anonymity- with all the extra benefit of being CL20- but I'm only going to pay the cost a CL7 Hat of Anonymity would take to create"

then the conclusion is pretty clear- the player wants an item better than they would get for the price they're paying.

This is a case where the errata is not needed, the rules are very clear- the player just isn't following them, and using the errata to justify it.

Creating items that aren't exactly as the book versions- including caster level- is covered by the rules for creating your own magic items. Which make it clear that if you are duplicating a spell, caster level is part of the pricing guideline.

Really though- this is derailing the thread. Maybe this should be taken to a new thread.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-04, 02:08 PM
4th level - Greater Mirror Image, Celerity, Ruin Delver's Fortune (esp if you have persist/incantrix), Greater Luminous Armor (if you can get it via Arcane Preparation)
8th - Superior Invisibility, Ghostform, Mystic Shield, Greater Arcane Fusion

Mystic Shield is from Anauroch: Empire of Shade, and grants complete immunity to 6th level and lower spells and inhibits all magical effects of weaponry (enhancement bonuses, enchantments, etc.) from affecting the target. Use Ghostform and Mystic Shield together and be completely immune to weapons and spells of 6th level and lower.

Toss ghost touch on your weapon and slice things apart with impunity.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-10-04, 05:49 PM
rocness I know of thunderlance but I have good enough str, i'd prefer to use it for my weapon. It is a good spell for cha-heavy casters tho


Complete Mage.Looked Greater Arcane fusion up and wow. Its got nice action economy. Now that is a contender. I'm not sure what you see in heart of earth

Finger of Agony? Do you mean finger of death?


Definitely get Ray Deflection

it automatically negates an entire list of effects instead of granting a bonus, it's completely unfair to your opponents.

assuming Mind Blank can block True Seeing.That last sentence interests me. I took another look at ray deflection and its clear that it "automatically reflect"s rays but the protected against touch attacks seems like fluff...

Ghostform + Mystic Shield is pretty neat Beholder, but I like my str score :)

Eldariel
2010-10-04, 05:55 PM
I'm not sure what you see in heart of earth

It's Hour/Level and has this line:
"If heart of earth is active on you at the same time as heart of air, heart of fire, or heart of water, you gain light fortification. If all four of these spells are active on you at the same time, you become immune to extra damage from critical hits and sneak attacks."

That's by far the cheapest Greater Fortifications you can acquire. Also, +8 vs. Trip-checks is nothing to scoff at given there's no spell that makes you immune to tripping and being tripped while flying means you drop to ground (not to mention, it's an Str-check and thus a Gish with decent Str and Heart of Earth is actually favored against most tripping creatures). And I mean, you won't use it often but sometimes Stoneskin can be just what you want (e.g. against creatures with tons of natural attacks when most of your protections are down).

Keld Denar
2010-10-04, 05:58 PM
being tripped while flying means you drop to ground

Not quite. This only works if you are using limbs for locomotion. If you are flying through magical or supernatural means (which I'd imagine he's got Elemental Body(Air) for perfect fly) then he couldn't be tripped the same as you can't trip a Beholder...

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-04, 05:59 PM
Ghostform + Mystic Shield is pretty neat Beholder, but I like my str score :)

Mystic Shield won't affect YOUR gear or spells, but will affect those trying to attack you. You can swing away with your +5 sword if awesomeness, but their +5 sword of awesomeness becomes a masterwork sword of fail as soon as they swing it at you.

Out of luck, though, if they have natural attacks.

Keld Denar
2010-10-04, 06:05 PM
I think his comment was directed more at Ghostform (which makes you incorp, and thus sets your Str to -) than to Mystic Shield.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-04, 06:10 PM
I think his comment was directed more at Ghostform (which makes you incorp, and thus sets your Str to -) than to Mystic Shield.

I assumed so, I just wanted to make sure I was clear that they aren't mutually dependent.

Malbordeus
2010-10-04, 06:41 PM
"Finger of Agony? Do you mean finger of death?"

nope, i mean finger of agony. finger of death is a 7th level spell.

Finger of agony appears in... Complete meh. i mean Mage. depending on their save each round it shuts something down, or just sickens them. pluss Damage over time. i'm sure you can find funny meta magics to apply to it.

the heart of earth note... its a stoneskin activatable as a swift action that doesnt need material componants. and it does other stuff. what isnt to love as a defensive spell? the other heart spells are worth looking at as well, specificly heart of water, but thats level 3.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-04, 07:17 PM
Freedom of Movement is 10 min/level. It's trivial to keep active all day on level 18+, and easily worth it. And Heart of Water is the same for Wizards. Not to mention Ring of Freedom of Movement for those who somehow can't. And every decent caster has maxed Con. You don't need to optimize it; it simply scales faster than the DC. Level 18 caster has Concentration 21+Con, for example, so easily +26 (with 14 base Con and +6 item; standard stuff). He won't be failing anything under 8th/9th level spells and that's without any item-based bonuses.

That's assuming every opponent you run across is a min/maxed Batman Wizard with high Con score and a +6 Con item or a Ring of Freedom of Movement... maybe that happens at your table, but not around mine.

Sure, in arenas, you're gonna find that. But in a typical campaign? Not so much.

Eldariel
2010-10-04, 07:26 PM
That's assuming every opponent you run across is a min/maxed Batman Wizard with high Con score and a custom item of +6 to Concentration... maybe that happens at your table, but not around mine.

Sure, in arenas, you're gonna find that. But in a typical campaign? Not so much.

I find custom items are bad by their very nature and should burn in fires of justice forever; I didn't even mention using one. Tunic of Steady Spellcasting is 2.5k for +5 Competence to Concentration, but I didn't even factor that into my calculations. I don't really see how opponents maxing their key skill and wanting extra points in the stat that's the second priority for literally all classes counts as min/maxing. I'm not expecting any wacky spell usage. I'm not expecting any multiclassing. I'm not even expecting intelligent feat selection! All I'm assuming is the spellcaster is doing the most obvious of obvious things and maxing out Concentration since it's a skill he'll need, and boosting Con since he's not very durable and that makes him more so. I mean, isn't that what you'd do the first time you play a spellcaster?

'cause I can tell you, the very first 3.X game we ever played had two spellcasters and both of them maxed Concentration and got Con-boosters. Zero system mastery. It was literally the most obvious thing out of the box after "boost your casting stat". I'd expect most NPCs to be at least as competent, especially from Plz's earlier comments about X spells being useless due to protections which leads me to believe they'll be dealing with opposition that at the very least uses basic protections. And on those levels, keeping Freedom of Movement (which just does so much) up all day seems pretty obvious as well. Definitely doesn't take min/maxed Wizards, Batman with party or some truly dangerous lone wolf, or otherwise.


Not quite. This only works if you are using limbs for locomotion. If you are flying through magical or supernatural means (which I'd imagine he's got Elemental Body(Air) for perfect fly) then he couldn't be tripped the same as you can't trip a Beholder...

Ah, yeah, thanks. Seems I...screwed up :smallwink:

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-04, 07:27 PM
That's assuming every opponent you run across is a min/maxed Batman Wizard with high Con score and a +6 Con item or a Ring of Freedom of Movement... maybe that happens at your table, but not around mine.

Sure, in arenas, you're gonna find that. But in a typical campaign? Not so much.

A +6 constitution item is not a custom item, it's standard DMG gear and pretty much every level 18 character is assumed to have been smart enough to obtain it.

Around my table, it wouldn't be uncommon for a character to have a +6 constitution/+5 natural armor item, or even +6 constitution/+20 concentration item (could actually be +30).

137beth
2010-10-04, 07:30 PM
In fact, boosting Con for a spellcaster isn't even min/maxing, its boosting a WEAKNESS. Maxing concentration is technically maxing something, it just happens to be one of the most important skills for spellcasters. Saying you shouldn't assume max ranks in concentration is about as absurd as saying you shouldn't assume a wizard would but their best ability score in intelligence.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-04, 08:12 PM
A +6 constitution item is not a custom item, it's standard DMG gear and pretty much every level 18 character is assumed to have been smart enough to obtain it.

Around my table, it wouldn't be uncommon for a character to have a +6 constitution/+5 natural armor item, or even +6 constitution/+20 concentration item (could actually be +30).

Character, yes. Every mook, though? Geez, talk about blowing the top off of the WBL guidelines when you get them all back to town to sell...

"Yea, I got another three dozen Amulets of Health +6. Listed price is 36k so half that is 18k each... hey cool, I can afford epic level gear now!"

"Only three dozen?"

"Well, yanno, we kinda got bored farming the crap..."

Fax Celestis
2010-10-04, 08:48 PM
min/maxing...does not mean what you seem to think it means. "Minimizing penalties, maximizing benefits".


Character, yes. Every mook, though? Geez, talk about blowing the top off of the WBL guidelines when you get them all back to town to sell...

NPCs have their own WBL guidelines, and they should be followed accordingly.

Eldariel
2010-10-04, 09:27 PM
Character, yes. Every mook, though? Geez, talk about blowing the top off of the WBL guidelines when you get them all back to town to sell...

"Yea, I got another three dozen Amulets of Health +6. Listed price is 36k so half that is 18k each... hey cool, I can afford epic level gear now!"

"Only three dozen?"

"Well, yanno, we kinda got bored farming the crap..."

NPC spellcasters and high CR spellcasting monsters better not be mooks...

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-04, 09:37 PM
NPC spellcasters and high CR spellcasting monsters better not be mooks...

I often sprinkle in casters with most of the encounters my players run into. Usually sorcerers or warlocks, so I don't throw billions of GP worth of spellbooks at the party.

And you can have several CR -1 or -2 critters before you even things out.

So... yes. By level 18? Level 16 sorcerers or warlocks will be an addition to many encounters you face. Or critters with equivalent SLA.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-10-05, 02:00 AM
Finger of agony appears in... Complete meh. i mean Mage.hmm again a CM spell not in mango index or here (http://www.imarvintpa.com/DnDLive/FindSpell.php)

Its decent for its level. I expect monsters to make their save though.

Sorry for being picky guys, but I do really appreciate the help. I don't often play casters so voila.

Malbordeus
2010-10-05, 06:41 PM
thats the beauty of it, even if they pass it has an effect and keeps running. now fell drain it and watch somone take 10 negative levels from the thing.

equally funny is Call of stone from the PHB2. but in diferent ways... just looking at that book again, Trollshape Comes up, as does Slashing Dispell. if your enemies have silly saves then removing buffs whilst hurting them cant be bad?

Blast of flame maybe? Spell Compendium, AoE, no SR, good for golems. one of the myrid of Orb Spells? Force is a favourite but caps early...

I think that about Exhausts the sensible spells...

on an other note, do you make use of Runestaves (itempendium) and Knowstones (in a dragon mag somewhere) theyre a good way to expand your spells selection.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-05, 06:50 PM
Call of stone is a great spell.

Cieyrin
2010-10-06, 04:22 PM
on an other note, do you make use of Runestaves (itempendium) and Knowstones (in a dragon mag somewhere) theyre a good way to expand your spells selection.

...and Drakehelms (Explorer's Handbook). More likely get one of those than a Knowstone, with how people get about Dragon in these parts and others.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-10-07, 02:14 PM
I suppose I'll settle on Arcane Fusion and Call of stone.

Maze or Imprison still doesn't seem worth the last slot though...

Aharon
2010-10-07, 02:37 PM
Not completely on topic
=> Not using Fog spells because you intend to move yourself.
Here's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20050311a) a 31500 gp item that fixes that.

Aharon
2010-10-07, 02:39 PM
Mystic Shield is great, but it has a 1 round casting time and only round/level duration. It's of questionable use if not persisted.

Edit: Oops, sorry for the double post. Intended to edit, obviously :smallsmile:

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-10-09, 01:07 AM
Mystic Shield is from where? (not cm, nor mango index or Drag Mags or...)

edit: oops my copy already had this marked (page 142ish)

Aharon
2010-10-09, 12:16 PM
It's from a published Adventure, called Anauroch: Empire of the Shades. 19$+shipping on Amazon. It also contains the Sharn and several other spells. Unfortunately, I haven't ever actually had the chance to play the adventure - my group isn't fond of high level play.