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Halaster
2010-10-02, 04:51 PM
Just a quick question: it has been pointed out in several balancing related threads, that rogues suck, among other things, because their sneak attack depends on flanking. Now one of my players in an upcoming campaign wants to play a swashbuckling rogue and use feint to deny his opponents their Dex bonus, then sneak attack. Now, is this not possible, or is it just too much trouble (two feats, after all)?

Fax Celestis
2010-10-02, 04:53 PM
Just a quick question: it has been pointed out in several balancing related threads, that rogues suck, among other things, because their sneak attack depends on flanking. Now one of my players in an upcoming campaign wants to play a swashbuckling rogue and use feint to deny his opponents their Dex bonus, then sneak attack. Now, is this not possible, or is it just too much trouble (two feats, after all)?

Even with two feats, he's still spending a move action, which means in order to make it effective he has to already be in his opponent's face. Which means he's losing out on full-attacking in order to get one attack.

Feinting is pretty lame in almost every circumstance, except for, say, an unerrata'd Invisible Blade (who gets to feint as a swift).

Halaster
2010-10-02, 04:59 PM
OK, but look at it this way: a mid-level rogue, say level 7, still has only one attack, but already deals 4d6 sneak damage. So, even if he had another attack (like at level 8) and a longsword +2, a full attack would do 2d8+6 (let's assume strength 12) damage, while a feinted sneak would do 1d8+4d6+3. A difference of average 15 to average 21, if I get the math right. Not much, but still an improvement. Not worth two feats, I guess.

Claudius Maximus
2010-10-02, 04:59 PM
Even with two feats, he's still spending a move action, which means in order to make it effective he has to already be in his opponent's face. Which means he's losing out on full-attacking in order to get one attack.

Feinting is pretty lame in almost every circumstance, except for, say, an unerrata'd Invisible Blade (who gets to feint as a swift).

Unerrata'd Invisible Blade feints as a free action at will. The errata just makes it 1/round. I don't think swift actions were around when Complete Warrior was printed.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-02, 05:03 PM
Not worth two feats, I guess.

REALLY not worth two feats, especially when they'll basically be useless in two levels. There are so many ways to make your foes dex-denied that feinting is just not realistically feasible.

Halaster
2010-10-02, 05:06 PM
There are so many ways to make your foes dex-denied that feinting is just not realistically feasible.
Care to list some that make more sense? After all, there will be a druid and a sorcerer in the same game, and while we're very low-optimization I don't want the player to feel useless playing a rogue, maybe fighter/rogue (which would, tier-wise, make things worse).

Fax Celestis
2010-10-02, 05:14 PM
Care to list some that make more sense? After all, there will be a druid and a sorcerer in the same game, and while we're very low-optimization I don't want the player to feel useless playing a rogue, maybe fighter/rogue (which would, tier-wise, make things worse).

Blind your opponent. Turn invisible (potions, items, or otherwise). Get Hide in Plain Sight (Dark template is generally quickest). Use a wand of distract assailant. Wear a ring of blinking or get someone to cast blink on you. Use a wand of grease: balancing opponents are denied Dex to AC. Use the Adaptable Flanker feat with a threatening reach weapon (like a spiked chain or kusari-gama) and flank with yourself. Use the Island of Blades stance: enemies you threaten are considered flanked. Get your ranger buddy to take the PHB-II Distracting Attack alternate class feature: anyone he hits is considered flanked until his next turn. Use a wand of armor lock (CScn). Have your monk friend use Stunning Fist, or get a wand of saltray (SC). Intimidate your opponent: Cowering opponents lose Dex to AC. Telling Blow (PHB-II) adds "critical hit" as a trigger for Sneak Attack.

Tyrmatt
2010-10-02, 05:15 PM
You could always let the player Factotum up. He won't be king but he can have Iajutsu Focus and be a sneak attacking, spellcasting, healing, knowledge packed maniac instead.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-10-02, 05:21 PM
I was running a small no-magic campaign, in which I houseruled Improved Feint to make feinting a free action, instead of a move action. It didn't ruin balance by any means (this is without casters mind you, so with casters it should prove even less of an issue) and it allowed the sneak attackers to do damage without relying on spellcasters, flankers, etc. etc.

ericgrau
2010-10-02, 05:44 PM
He can use a masterwork buckler because it has no non-proficiency penalty because it has no armor check penalty. That will make having a single attack more worth it. It should be effective until he's high enough level to get haste from boots of speed or a caster. The secondary attack at a -5 is worth something to be sure but it's not that big of a deal. Especially compared to, say, reliability of sneak attacks. The strategy should be effective until level 9ish. Then, I dunno, let him retrain? Only use it if the campaign won't run that long?

Based on the estimates I've done, yes, rogues do suck in combat compared to others. But they're passable at it and they also get a boatload of skill points. IMO they're more useful in campaigns where the DM actually reads the skills and does more than "roll spot to see the monster standing right in front of you, roll twice to disable the trap without need nor ability to be clever about it" (yes, I know, both examples are intentionally wrong).

Reynard
2010-10-02, 06:49 PM
Take six levels of Beguiler, if possible?

gallagher
2010-10-02, 07:22 PM
buy a belt of battle, so that he gets another move action a couple of times a day? if i recall, one charge gives you a move action, and you get that three times a day. i dont know about your encounters, but with a druid who has an animal companion that works as a very good flanker, you shouldnt need to use more than those three charges

that and what rogue doesnt have a million bags of marbles and a few potions of invis?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 07:29 PM
buy a belt of battle, so that he gets another move action a couple of times a day? if i recall, one charge gives you a move action, and you get that three times a day. i dont know about your encounters, but with a druid who has an animal companion that works as a very good flanker, you shouldnt need to use more than those three charges

that and what rogue doesnt have a million bags of marbles and a few potions of invis?

A level 1 rogue?:smalltongue:

Probably one or two bags of marbles, but not millions

gallagher
2010-10-02, 07:33 PM
A level 1 rogue?:smalltongue:

Probably one or two bags of marbles, but not millionsa level one rogue with some sort of craft: round object. get some tools, and find some rounded small rocks. it works practically the same. just because it isnt high quality doesnt mean it doesnt roll when pressure is applied at an angle

heck, making your own caltrops is just as easy. they dont have to be pretty, they just have to get stuck in a shoe

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-02, 07:36 PM
:sigh: are my :tongue: smileys invisible? it was a joke people a J.O.K.E

Greenish
2010-10-02, 07:40 PM
:sight: are my :tongue: smileys invisible? it was a joke people a J.O.K.EJustly Offended Kooky Explanation?

…Yeah, that's the best I can come up 3.40 AM.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-02, 07:45 PM
Use Tumble plus the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick (Complete Scoundrel, page 84) to move through an enemy and treat them as flat-footed for your next attack.

Greenish
2010-10-02, 07:48 PM
Use Tumble plus the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick (Complete Scoundrel, page 84) to move through an enemy and treat them as flat-footed for your next attack.It's a very economic way to gain SA, but sadly limited to once per encounter.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-02, 11:04 PM
It's a very economic way to gain SA, but sadly limited to once per encounter.
True, but that once generally occurs every time you switch from ranged attacks against flat-footed foes (start of every combat) to melee. With high DEX you'll almost always go before your potential flanking partners. This way you'll still get a sneak attack as you move into position, and as soon as your lower-initiative flanking buddy gets into place you'll have full rounds of sneak attack.

Halaster
2010-10-03, 02:33 AM
:smallsigh: Just like I expected. Many of the suggestions above sound perfectly reasonable (some are a little far-fetched maybe), but the all severely lack in terms of style.

I mean, this player has the perfect idea of a swashbuckler, whose blade is never where you expect it to be, and who delivers crippling strikes to confused enemies. A real concept, folks, not just a bundle of equipment and/or spells (about half the listed options involved those). But the system, as usual, leans towards using more stuff, 'cause stuff trumps abilities. Well, now, that makes my character unique and memorable, yeah :smallannoyed:

I guess making feint a free action might work, alternately one might refluff the invisible blade and drop that completely idiotic dagger focus.

Or maybe I'll just hope that my group is as bad at optimization as they think they are and that he will be effective enough compared to druid and sorcerer.

BTW, someone mentioned intimidate to make foes cower, but it only makes them shaken. Are there ways to make foes cower?

ffone
2010-10-03, 02:47 AM
The character concept you just described is precisely the fluff of the Invisible Blade prestige class.

And, really, the fluff of what it means to be flanking or Dex-denying you foe - your blade is more likely to not be where they expect if they can't see your or are distracted by your allies.

Although it's hard to track down on the internet, the author of the Invis Blade class originally made it 10 levels with some throwing weapon specific things, and he said that when Wizards accepted the class for the manual,they made him trim it to 5 levels, dumped the throwing stuff, but kept the throwing-themed prereqs (Point Blank Shot and Far Shot), and he thought they should just be Weapon Focus and Finesse.

Point of that is, many people get annoyed by those prerequisites (two burned feats if you're just going to melee) - so if you want to give your player some help, just steer up towards invisible blade with lightened prereqs.

I don't recommend unhinging the 1/round limit on the free feint, though. Firstly, for balance...secondly, if he's TWFing and getting, say, 6 attacks a round, do you REALLY want to have to roll opposed Bluff and Sense Motive for every attack the character ever makes?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-10-03, 03:19 AM
I've never known a rogue to really have that much trouble flanking.

Zaq
2010-10-03, 03:34 AM
If your heart's set on feinting, your only real option is to take Invisible Blade (Complete Warrior) with the feat Surprising Riposte (Drow of the Underdark, p. 52). Surprising Riposte makes anyone you hit after feinting flat-footed until the start of their turn, which is long enough for you to get in the rest of your attacks.

Feat-starved as hell, naturally, but hey, at least it does work. It's even better if you dip Factotum or find another way of getting Iaijutsu Focus, since then you can relatively easily get IF and sneak attack at the same time, which is a satisfying number of d6s. Maybe a little overkill, though, depending on your group.

Halaster
2010-10-03, 03:49 AM
Well, I guess I'll just homebrew the invisible blade, as follows:

Requirements:
Skills: unchanged
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (favorite weapon), Combat Expertise
Special: The favorite weapon must be usable with weapon finesse. Character must defeat a worthy opponent using favorite weapon and no outside help.

Class Abilities: replace "dagger, kukri or punching dagger" with "favorite weapon".

Makes for a nice prestige class, I think, and doesn't really break balancing.

Jornophelanthas
2010-10-03, 06:48 AM
Use the Adaptable Flanker feat with a threatening reach weapon (like a spiked chain or kusari-gama) and flank with yourself.

This does not work, as flanking always requires at least 2 people. This has been said explicitly in the official FAQ.

Amphetryon
2010-10-03, 07:24 AM
To fit your player's concept:

Combine Swashbuckler 3 with a Diamond Mind-centered Warblade 7 into Eternal Blade 10. This fits the flavor of the concept reasonably well, and is a closer match to the power level of the other characters in the party. Eternal Blade and Warblade are in Tome of Battle if the reminder is needed. While Eternal Blade's fluff says Elf-only, there's no crunch reason why this must be so.

Zen Master
2010-10-03, 07:48 AM
Intimidate your opponent: Cowering opponents lose Dex to AC.

Really? Intimidate lets you do that?

Interesting.

EDIT: Hm, however it doesn't quite seem to work that way: Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm)

Greenish
2010-10-03, 07:50 AM
Really? Intimidate lets you do that?When built for, yes.

There's a good reason fear has it's own handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0).

Curmudgeon
2010-10-03, 07:51 AM
Really? Intimidate lets you do that?

Interesting.
Yeah, but you've got to escalate the fear quite a bit, and then corner the enemy, to get there.

Shaken -> frightened -> panicked; and then a panicked foe who can't run away cowers.

Coidzor
2010-10-03, 07:54 AM
Really? Intimidate lets you do that?

Interesting.

Successful demoralize moves 'em one step further into fear. Combine intimidate with another fear source and they're at least running away and getting AoO'd.

Of course, with the Imperious Command (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=2)feat, they get dropped straight to cowering and then in subsequent round they get they get their fear status advanced one step from the baseline.

Combine with the Never Outnumbered (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5) skill trick and you've got a nice little burst of, "No action this turn for youse guys."

Ernir
2010-10-03, 07:58 AM
I agree with Amphetryon, Warblade makes this concept work. Multiclassing/dipping/PrCing into Rogue/Swashbuckler/Eternal Blade/Invisible Blade optional. Use Tipp-Ex to call the Warblade "Swashbuckler", and Sapphire Nightmare Blade "Feinting maneuver".


Really? Intimidate lets you do that?

Interesting.

The feat Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark makes demoralized opponents cower.

Ormur
2010-10-03, 12:58 PM
I've played a gestalt level 6 beguiler//rogue/swashbuckler with improved feint that allows you to feint as a swift action with the beguiler cloaked casting. It's fun but I imagine it would always be suboptimal without gestalt. It essentially makes sure I can always sneak attack those that are susceptible to it unless they have a lot invested in sense motive.