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View Full Version : Applying Invocations to EVERYTHING.



Admiral Squish
2010-10-02, 09:45 PM
Basically, it's what the title says. I really don't like playing spellcasters all that much, but warlock is so limiting.

So, the idea was this: Replace traditional casting with invocations. It'd be a lot of work to remake all the spell lists to accommodate invocations, but I really think an invocation-using druid would be pretty epic.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how bad of an idea is this?

Yorrin
2010-10-02, 09:57 PM
I've always wanted to try this but never was willing to put that much time into it. I'd say your best bet is to identify the top X number of iconic spells per level for each class and pick them as your invocations.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-10-02, 10:19 PM
I remember someone in the homebrew section making an invocation based druid.

Though it was less invocation druid and more druid-themed warlock.

KillianHawkeye
2010-10-02, 11:15 PM
What you're talking about is basically rewriting the entire spellcasting system (including spells) and making them into at-will Spell-Like Abilities. That's A LOT of work! Don't underestimate the amount of playtesting you'd have to do to make sure things are well balanced.

Krazddndfreek
2010-10-02, 11:19 PM
Oh my god. I just remembered I saw someone complete such an ambitious project. It was a few months ago, maybe last year, but it was freaking amazing. He divided up the arcane casters into niches like summoner and gave the other casters like cleric and druid invocations and different abilities which meshed better with the mechanics. I can't remember what its called, so it might be a bit difficult to search up.

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 11:22 PM
DragoonWraith's Invoker class: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153863 Still a little on the strong side but not quite finished.

Here's another place with some old homebrewed invocations: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125678

Not enough to replace full casters but give warlocks a little more flexibility. Warning some of the ones on the both are a little strong.

Krazddndfreek
2010-10-02, 11:32 PM
I found it! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134915) But it wasn't as complete as I'd thought. Still, it's worth looking at IMO.

Radiun
2010-10-02, 11:42 PM
Here's another place with some old homebrewed invocations: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125678

Warning some of the ones on the both are a little strong.

What did I do? :-S


Anywho, if you were making a caster who used invocations, and had eldritch blast, and let us pretend he was a blaster.

They'll probably want to cover some elemental bases
Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire and Sonic, not to mention Force

Mayhaps some iconic shapes such as Balls, Cones, Domes, Lines, and Walls

That sorceror would have spent 11 invocations to simply be a somewhat versatile blaster.

What am I driving at? Don't use the Warlock as a guideline for such a system. 12 invocations by 20th level is not enough

Zaydos
2010-10-02, 11:56 PM
What did I do? :-S

Lightning Blast (Storm Blast)
Lesser 3rd
Electricity damage. Creature struck must make a Fort save or take no actions and suffer a -2 penalty to Armor Class and loses her Dexterity bonus (if any) for 1 round. (Cowered condition, but via electrical shock)

That's the main one I remember as being a little too strong; it's the equivalent of a Dark Invocation (Stunning Blast) and actually if you have descent Charisma a pretty good Dark Invocation.



Anywho, if you were making a caster who used invocations, and had eldritch blast, and let us pretend he was a blaster.

They'll probably want to cover some elemental bases
Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire and Sonic, not to mention Force

Mayhaps some iconic shapes such as Balls, Cones, Domes, Lines, and Walls

That sorceror would have spent 11 invocations to simply be a somewhat versatile blaster.

What am I driving at? Don't use the Warlock as a guideline for such a system. 12 invocations by 20th level is not enough

I'd actually say as a blaster I generally just went with untyped and the acid one because it had too good of a rider effect; but untyped is >>>> than any of the energy types only fire (for cold creatures) and cold (for fire ones) really have any reason to be used when you have untyped (there are fringe cases of creatures with regen). As for shapes I avoid Lines as a general rule, also domes and walls aren't usually blasts.

A versatile blaster needs a way to get around energy resistance (untyped damage or 3+ energy types) and a few blast shapes. Not 11 but closer to 6. Now I will agree that 12 by 20th is far too few because a versatile blaster needs ways to combine debuff and blasting into one.

JaxGaret
2010-10-03, 11:21 AM
Recharge Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm)

Take a look, maybe it will give you some ideas.

Sliver
2010-10-03, 11:47 AM
At-will has the problem of letting the players still have a caster that can heal or buff the party. The longer the buffs, the weaker they are compared to others of the same level. The buffs that are already in the system will have to be weakened or upped in levels in order to remain balanced, because at least how it's going now, clerics need to invest something to have divine power all day. And having everybody at full hp all the time usually costs some gold, mostly in a wand of lesser vigor. But if you want to keep healing for a cleric, no resource management is required there...

Eloel
2010-10-03, 11:49 AM
Make every caster invocation based.
Done?
Now make every melee class invocation based.
Done?
You just made 4e.

JellyPooga
2010-10-03, 11:53 AM
At-will has the problem of letting the players still have a caster that can heal or buff the party. The longer the buffs, the weaker they are compared to others of the same level. The buffs that are already in the system will have to be weakened or upped in levels in order to remain balanced, because at least how it's going now, clerics need to invest something to have divine power all day. And having everybody at full hp all the time usually costs some gold, mostly in a wand of lesser vigor. But if you want to keep healing for a cleric, no resource management is required there...

All-day healing isn't so much of a biggie if you make any (or at least the lower level) "healing" invocations grant temporary HP rather than full-on healing. That way you still get a little combat healing, if necessary, but you can't go overboard as temp HP don't stack IIRC.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 12:02 PM
Also the 50% max health limit most all-day healing has already.

Sliver
2010-10-03, 12:12 PM
Also the 50% max health limit most all-day healing has already.

Requires either a class level or a feat besides keeping a spell slot open. The point is, it's not free healing, it requires a permanent resource investment or gold to have unlimited healing, limited to 50% or not. Also, healing is the minor point. What about all the buffs?

JellyPooga
2010-10-03, 12:23 PM
Requires either a class level or a feat besides keeping a spell slot open. The point is, it's not free healing, it requires a permanent resource investment or gold to have unlimited healing, limited to 50% or not. Also, healing is the minor point. What about all the buffs?

Buffs would simply have to be down-powered significantly enough to be balanced...all-day Freedom of Movement is not going to come cheap, whichever way you look at it. The other way to limit buffs would be to dramatically reduce the duration...if the party Cleric is having to spend one combat round in every 3 or 4 casting Bull's Strength to maintain it, then his impact on that combat is going to be significantly reduced. I might even go so far, if I were undertaking this project myself, to require that any 'Buff' requires concentration to maintain...it would make buffers slightly boring to play, perhaps, but very interesting to have in the party as everyone struggles to protect him while he's concentrating.

Zaq
2010-10-03, 12:34 PM
Maybe give buffs a chance of ending every round. Kind of how 4e does the whole "save ends" thing, only for beneficial effects. That way you're doing something every round, you don't know from round to round if it's going to end or not (but very differently from "it lasts 1d6 rounds, and the GM rolls secretly"), and if you want to get into it you could add feats or class features that change the probability that any given buff will end.

Kaje
2010-10-03, 05:08 PM
I recently saw someone's invocation-using analogues for wizards, clerics, druids and bards, and they were quite impressive. And I liked how they handled the cleric's at-will healing: they can cast the invocation at-will, but a person can only be affected by it every so many rounds or minutes.

Eloel
2010-10-03, 05:18 PM
Hmm, for healing, an idea that just came in.

24h duration.
Every round, change 1 temporary HP into 1 HP. (damage1 heal1, if you want).
Another invocation that grants 1d6 temporary HP, non-stacking.

So, given time, you can topple everyone. Though it takes quite some time.