Best MMORPG out there?

[dj2145]

I know this is a question that might create some controversy but I am considering taking the plunge into MMORPG's and wanted to know which was best and why? I plan on doing some solo gaming and have a friend who will be getting in as well but any game that requires a group would be out. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

[Morrandir]

If you don't like grouping because you keep landing groups with stupid people, Guild Wars allows for you to take NPC henchmen that you can control, to a degree. The next expansion, Nightfall, is putting in some smarter ones, so you might want to look into that.

It's a pretty fun game, if you can land a nice guild and meet some people who aren't named something retarded. Thankfully, you can see idiots a mile away. The only downside I can see so far is that most of the game does need a group. So for you, it might be iffy. Just depends on why you don't like groups.

Never buy WoW. Ever. If you hate grouping, you will have an uncontrollable urge to set Jeff Kaplan on fire. End-game is raiding. 40 people killing unimportant things for 5 hours. EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

[dj2145]

I guess I dont like grouping for two reasons. The first, as you so perfectly explained, is that I just want to avoid the weirdos. Ive played enough online games (astrowars anyone?) to know that there are weird, creepy, terribly lonely people out there in the world. I feel for them but am not their therapist. Two is that I just want to play to enjoy and dont really want to have to rely on grouping to enjoy the game. I want to roam out and smack around a bugbear on my own from time to time.

That's just me though. Hm, maybe Im the weird one. (shrugs)

So WoW isnt the best choice? To be honest I never cared for the look of the game. It seems a bit too cartoony for me.

dj

[CaptainSam]

So WoW isnt the best choice? To be honest I never cared for the look of the game. It seems a bit too cartoony for me.

Exactly the reason I didn't choose WoW. I've been a Dark Age of Camelot player for over a year (Prydwen UK server), and still enjoying it.

As regards the grouping thing, it all depends on who you're with. I'm in a guild made of people I know in real life. We have a lot of fun, take the mickey and don't take the game too seriously. Saying that, they give me space if I don't feel like grouping. Didn't make it clear, you can play the game solo if you want. One of my characters is almost at his peak, mostly solo

Another thing you have to consider is the PvP aspect. I absolutely hate PvP. It's full of powergaming munchkins who have templated their characters to the max. So I avoid it. There's always plenty more to do.

So, DAoC is another option for you. Oh, plus all the little kiddie HAXXORs live on WoW now, so I think the average age of the player is about 27.

[Bzar]

I agree with GUild Wars. The henchies make for a nice addition when you cant find a decent and non-crazy group. Also,I second the fact that if you find a good guild (like mine), the whole game becomes MUCH better, as they usually help a lot more and are NOT crazy (depending on your guild.)

ALSO: there is a level cap, which makes pvp much more fun. AND you have the option of making a PVP character straight from the beginning at the level cap with decnet skills. Now I like PvP

[valadil]

DDO is only fun if you group. Even then some people will dispute how fun it is. I like it though.

I'm guessing you'd like City of Heroes. I've never played it myself so I can't say much, but what I saw looked like people playing a single player game together rather than grouping.

[Saithis Bladewing]

The best MMORPG of all time unfortunately can't be played any more. Specifically, I speak of Ultima Online before the patch of DOOM was released.

Personally, I do have a bit of a soft spot for WoW. It's one of the better ones out there, even if it makes a mockery of the storyline I love so much and the gameplay starts to grow dull around level 50 or so...

EDIT: Oh, and also? There's no such thing as the "best" MMORPG out there. Everybody has different tastes, different games appeal to different tastes, simple as that.

[Tom_Violence]

If I may ask, since you say you don't like grouping and just want to solo/play with your friend, why are you looking into getting a MMOG anyway?

I personally can't stand them and have avoided them as much as possible for the reasons already outlined here, and many more (though I do occasionally try one every now and then to see what the fuss is about and just incase someone's actually made a good one).

[Kish]

My view of World of Warcraft is a little contrary to most posted here so far, so I feel obligated to post it.

Most of it's soloable, and particularly easy to duo. A lot of quests involve going into dungeons, and those are aimed at five-person groups, but they're still optional--you don't need to do those quests to get to higher levels and higher-level areas. When you get to level 60, there are a lot of out-door areas where you can solo or duo, and a lot of dungeons where you can go as a five-person group. Eventually--whether you raid or not--you'll run out of quests. The game lacks the kind of clearly defined ending most single-player CRPGs have. However, even if you quit the second you reach level 60, the playtime dwarfs any single-player game I know. It strikes me as odd to say the game requires raiding when raiding isn't even an available option until after months of playing.

[Flashlight_Fish]

It strikes me as odd to say the game requires raiding when raiding isn't even an available option until after months of playing.

Agreed. I have been playing WoW for months and have not gotten a character to 60, sort of on purpose. I've started numerous alts to try all the different races and classes and get different quests. You can take as much time as you like and if you want you NEVER have to group, really. You can just abandon any quest that requires more than one person, or wait until you're high enough level to solo it.

City of Heroes/Villains is a little less easy to solo entirely simply because you can only have 3 missions at a time (compared with 20 in WoW) and you can't abandon them. So if you end up with 3 missions that all have bosses that require more than one person to take down, you either have to team up or you've got a LOT of grinding to do before you can solo them.

I almost always solo in MMOs, or occasionaly duo with friends, and have gotten a lot of mileage out of these two games. Yes, I do have to team up from time to time and yes, I sometime regret it! But overall I think they're both fairly solo-friendy. (And you can totally avoid PvP in both, if you want.)

[TruenuffTrey]

City of Heroes/Villains is a little less easy to solo entirely simply because you can only have 3 missions at a time (compared with 20 in WoW) and you can't abandon them. So if you end up with 3 missions that all have bosses that require more than one person to take down, you either have to team up or you've got a LOT of grinding to do before you can solo them.

You do only get 3 mission spots, but as I recall, you can only have 2 story arcs open at one time. So you can't get stuck with 3 bosses. I played for a long time, and I don't recall ever having 3 nigh-unsoloable bosses.

While you can solo in City of Heroes/Villains, grouping is one of the best parts of the game, granted you find a good group. It's similar to the way a D&D game is more fun when all the classes are covered. Think about it, a meat-shield and a healer can be fun, but think about how much better it is when you have those 2 plus a ranged character, a melee character, and debuffer. The whole point of CoH/CoV is to create your superhero/villain, and team up with other players.

Just my opinion.

[Flashlight_Fish]

You do only get 3 mission spots, but as I recall, you can only have 2 story arcs open at one time. So you can't get stuck with 3 bosses. I played for a long time, and I don't recall ever having 3 nigh-unsoloable bosses.

Right, you won't get 3 major bosses at at time, but there are those things I can't remember what they're called now...Elite Villains? Not quite a big boss but usually too tough to solo. You could have two storyarc end missions and one of those. And even if you do have two storyarc end missions and a soloable mission, that's still only one slot open for missions you can solo, so if you REALLY don't want to take on more Vahzilok, you might not have a choice.

And then of course there's that wonderful storyarc where EVERY mission has a major boss (the Praetorians).


The whole point of CoH/CoV is to create your superhero/villain, and team up with other players.

Oh yeah, I agree the game is designed that way (and certainly you won't see a lot of fun content if you never team). I was just responding to the OP who wanted to know about a good MMO that was soloable, and COH is definitely soloable if you want.

Until CoV came out I had every badge and had done every task force in the game, so of course I didn't solo my way through the whole thing. Had lots of...um..."interesting" team experiences but also lots of great ones. Also I think the game is friendlier overall than WoW in that there seems to be a lot more margin for error in groups. That's a big generalization though.

[Ms_Elaneous]

You might try FlyFF which is for free. I mean, it works pretty well, but everyone in-game price gouges. Not to mention there are a lot of weirdos, but joining them in a party is purely optional.

[dj2145]

Great feedback from all! I actually downloaded the DDO 7 day trial and disliked it thouroughly. The game was nice enough, graphics were a bit higher that NWN, but the fact that everything is in a dungeon was irritating. I think I will try WoW or Guild Wars. Never was into the superhero thing so think I will stick with fantasy.

Thanks again!

dj

[Alchemistmerlin]

If you don't like grouping, why play an MMO at all?

Why not just play a normal adventure/rpg and not waste the monthly fee/server space?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

The only true MMo that has captured my interest is Front Mission Online. I think it shall make me swoon.

[Leon]

The "BEST" mmorpg is the one you like - for me its WoW, for you mayhap something else

[Telok]

http://play-free-online-games.com/games/games_all.html

Looksies. I may recommend trying Anarchy Online. It's big, old, complex, and free (monthly fee to access expansion worlds but the original world is totally free).

[Morrandir]

If you do pick up Guild Wars, look me up. Name's Morrandir Gurthring, so if you need some human party members, I can guarantee non-stupidity :P

[dj2145]

I was kinda hoping nobody would call me on that! :)

I guess I just wanted to see what all the hype was about. Ive played NWN a great deal and enjoyed it but wanted to play something that I could get into with my buddy. Never really got into the NWN online thing but maybe that was the way to go all along.

dj

[Democratus]

I've played most of the major MMOs out there and the one that has held my interest most intensely is Eve Online.

Definately the best online community I've encountered, and there is no maximum level. Players who started 3 years ago on the beta are still improving skills.

Final reason I like Eve. Grinding has no effect on your "leveling". Skills are gained over time (even when logged off).

Give the 10-day free trial a try and see if it tickles your fancy, too.

[Alchemistmerlin]

I've played most of the major MMOs out there and the one that has held my interest most intensely is Eve Online.

Definately the best online community I've encountered, and there is no maximum level. Players who started 3 years ago on the beta are still improving skills.

Final reason I like Eve. Grinding has no effect on your "leveling". Skills are gained over time (even when logged off).

Give the 10-day free trial a try and see if it tickles your fancy, too.


If grinding has no effect, they're just gained over time, then what is the point of skills since you didn't earn them? That's like having a game where gold just accumulates over time in your bank, without you doing anything for it.

[Thervold]

I've been playing Guild Wars for over a year now, and as mentioned previously, AI henchmen, while often dumb, do allow you to do everything in the game solo or with a friend or two. Out of both continents, only three quests and one mission have I not been able to complete with henchmen. If you want, I think I may have some spare trial keys for the original Prophecies campaign. If interested, PM me.

[Justwar.]

I'm a big fan of NWN online. There are a lot of great servers out there to play on. Most important, it is free. You can try out a large variety of worlds and you don't have to load dozens of different games, usually all you might need is a custom Hak Pack or two. Just poke around until you find one you like.

If you are at all interested I could give you a suggestion or two where to look.

[Tom_Violence]

If grinding has no effect, they're just gained over time, then what is the point of skills since you didn't earn them? That's like having a game where gold just accumulates over time in your bank, without you doing anything for it.

Hehe, you'd really have to play the game to understand, cos its quite hard to explain. Yes, they aren't earned by doing something horribly monotonous for several hours as in many other games, but you still have to spend your time on them, in sense (i.e. time that you could've been using to improve other skills). Also, skills don't define what you can you nearly as much as is usually the case. Rather, its equipment and actual player skill that determines your capabilites. All skills do, for the most part, is allow you to use better equipment and in better combinations.

Personally, I love EVE's skill system. It lets you be whatever you want to be (there are no classes, and you're never pigeon-holed) and allows you to change that decision at any time. And even though it sounds like someone's who's been playing for years should have a major advantage, it actually creates a much leveler field. There's no more of this "I've been playing for 20hrs a day for the last year and so now I have 10,000HP more than you so haha you're screwed" nonsense. :P

Edit: For the record, I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with a game that just automatically gave you money. Anything that takes the work out of a game and lets me actually get on with playing it is alright by me.

[Wehrkind]

WoW is... odd. I have been playing since Beta, and it was the first MMORPG I got into. I got to end game, then stopped for a bit, then made a new character, go to end game, did a little more, then stopped. Now all my girlfriend and I do is play mid level PVP, with a little end game for kicks.

Yea. So you can play solo really well, or group up with your guild, of which there are plenty. I don't like the large group raids because I dislike the "Yea, I am here for 5 hours" commitment, but PvP offers group action and advancement in 10 minute - 5 hour chunks depending on the battle ground, so even if you do end up playing all day, you can leave any time you want without feeling baddly.

The main downside with WoW is the PvP at max level is starting to suffer from itemization, where you have to raid to compete. That sucks.

City of X is fun, but mostly just to make characters. It got boring for me after a while because there is no out of combat stuff to do, and waiting for like 10 seconds to smack someone in the face for lack of energy is irritating.

My roommate played DAoC a lot before he got into WoW, but I don't think he plays anymore. I don't know why.

[dj2145]

I took your advice and did the EVE trial. It was a pretty cool game but seemed a bit inpersonal when it comes to gameplay. Everyone is a ship and not a person. It would be cool if you could disembark and hang out in the station and do stuff there. Gameplay was great but I think I will pass on that one.

Dont know if I mentioned it earlier but i tried the DDO trial as well. Gameplay was nice and fluid but all the adventures are right there at and under the city. No world exploration. Didnt care for that much. Man, I am being really picky here! :)

Is there a Guild War or WoW trial that anyone knows of? I figure i will give those a try and, if all else fails, can just revert to NCAA Football 07 as that just came out as well.

dj

[Sneak]

I think there's a Guild Wars trial, but since I never played, I couldn't really tell you.

As for a WoW trial, there isn't one that you can download, but there is a nifty Recruit-A-Friend (http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowbilling/?id=abl01997p) thing, which is basically Blizz baiting customers into getting them more customers. I have an account and I'd be willing to email you the key (nothing like a little motivation), but I'd need your email first.

I think there's also a free 10-day trial that comes with the game when you buy it to give out to friends, but I have no idea where mine is. Ah, well.

As for which one is better, I've played WoW for days and days and I've only played GW for probably 2 minutes, so I couldn't compare them much. All I can say is that I found WoW extremely fun and addicting, especially if you're in a good RPing guild (like I was). I've heard good things about Guild Wars too, but something that really bothered me in the 2 minutes that I played was the lack of a jump feature. It's really not important, but it bothered me. All there is is a jump emote which lets you jump in place.

EDIT: I've also considered trying an MMORPG called Shadowbane, but never really got around to it. I hear it's free now. Can anyone confirm this?

[Crazy Owl]

Hmm I would stay away from Shadowbane Sneak. When I tried the main problems that came up seemed to be:
1.At level 20 it becomes impossible to fins anything to do.
2.There were no quests so it was constant grinding.
3.No one seemed to play it so you could never get a party.
4. As far I could see, not much roleplaying going on.

It might be alright if its free now but when I played it was nowhere near worth a monthly fee.
edit: looking at the site it is free now other than the discs.

[Tom_Violence]

As for which one is better, I've played WoW for days and days and I've only played GW for probably 2 minutes, so I couldn't compare them much. All I can say is that I found WoW extremely fun and addicting, especially if you're in a good RPing guild (like I was). I've heard good things about Guild Wars too, but something that really bothered me in the 2 minutes that I played was the lack of a jump feature. It's really not important, but it bothered me. All there is is a jump emote which lets you jump in place.

EDIT: I've also considered trying an MMORPG called Shadowbane, but never really got around to it. I hear it's free now. Can anyone confirm this?

http://chronicle.ubi.com/newspost.php?id=15088

Yes, Shadowbane is free, apparently. I've never even heard of it but the mention of free time was all it took to motivate a quick Google search from me.

You're certainly not the first person that I've heard complaining about a lack of jumping in GW, which I never really understood. The only real reason that I can think of as to why it doesn't have one is because it would probably lead to exploration exploits. Personally, I quite enjoy a game which doesn't have hordes of people jumping around all over the place. :)

[Alchemistmerlin]

http://chronicle.ubi.com/newspost.php?id=15088

Yes, Shadowbane is free, apparently. I've never even heard of it but the mention of free time was all it took to motivate a quick Google search from me.

You're certainly not the first person that I've heard complaining about a lack of jumping in GW, which I never really understood. The only real reason that I can think of as to why it doesn't have one is because it would probably lead to exploration exploits. Personally, I quite enjoy a game which doesn't have hordes of people jumping around all over the place. :)


See you've never had the joy of having to dive off a cliff with the jump feature to get away from a horde of angry NPCs you just pulled by walking into the wrong town.


I swear if I had taken 1 more step forward before jumping I would have hit the water instead of the rocks below.

I still love the potion they gave out during the last Festival in WoW that let you float gently down and forward rather than plummetting to your doom. If you aimed right you could find al sorts of nifty places to explore.

[Jothki]

You're certainly not the first person that I've heard complaining about a lack of jumping in GW, which I never really understood. The only real reason that I can think of as to why it doesn't have one is because it would probably lead to exploration exploits. Personally, I quite enjoy a game which doesn't have hordes of people jumping around all over the place. :)

Jumping requires physics. If players can't jump, then all you have to do is map out a surface across which characters can move. The engine designs for the two are fundamentally different.

[Harry077]

I played FFXI for 18 months before getting turned off by it. After about level 20 (max of 75) nothing could be soloed. All advancement required grouping. And unless you had the very best piece of gear your class/level, you would be ignored.

After that, I started on WoW, and am still playing a year later. Not only is grouping not manditory to get to max level (currently 60), but servers are designated as PvP (you can attack other players) or PvE (you can't attack other players unless they want to fight).

Granted, much of the best gear must be gained by Dungeon-ing in groups. But it is not required to have the top-of-the-line equipment to enjoy yourself. My spouse and I duoed our way to level 60 with minimal outside help.

Another nice game design is multiple characters. You can have up to 50 different characters with your account, spread across any number of servers. I personnally have 3 level 60 Horde 'toons on one server and started an Alliance 'toon on another just to see how the other half lives. Having access to multiple characters is a boon when crafting items. What one character needs for crafting, another can make and send to them.

Classes are used to generalize players more that pigeon-holing them. How talent points are distributed plays a larger role. A Protection-specced Warrior plays much differently than a Fury-specced one.

If soloing is your thing, then both the Hunter and Warlock classes allow pets to fight at your side.

Blizzard is very proactive keeping players interested. Since I started there have been 2 large world events, each opening up new areas to explore. These were free patches. Blizz constantly addresses game balance issues to try and keep an even playing field.

I didn't mean to get so long-winded....

[Tom_Violence]

2 events a year is 'very proactive'? :P

[Harry077]

The two events I was referencing were major events. Each lasted well over a month and required massive input from each faction to be completed. The first opened up 2 new dungeons (An'Qiraj)and the second 1 new (Naxxramas).

These were in addition to all the seasonal events (Harvest, Christmas, Darkmoon, Orphanage, Summer) that are run based on times of the year.

Other patches have been released adding new dungeons that were not linked to world events. Blackwing Lair and Zul'Gurub are two of those.

[The Evil Thing]

I've noticed a general trend in responses to EVE Online. Seventeen of the people who I've nagged or introduced into the game don't like the way it's presented. That is, that you don't get to meet people 'in person', if you will. Presumably they download the client expecting Freelancer and getting Elite.

Personally, I think it's better because the only thing you can associate with someone is their personality (and maybe a small, static portrait).

Oh, don't forget this game is made by people who are kind of stuck in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Isolation is a way of life ;D

[Tom_Violence]

Oh, don't forget this game is made by people who are kind of stuck in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Isolation is a way of life ;D

I remember having a large discussion with a group in the game about what exactly an ISK was (the game's currency) and what it stood for. And then some bright spark showed up and pointed out that it is the Icelandic Krona. :P Even now if you search 'isk' in Google you'll get more stuff about EVE than you will about Iceland's money of choice.

Personally, I don't think adding in anything like being able to meet people would enrich the game in any way, so I can't say that not having that feature makes the game any worse. Unless your idea of fun is hanging out at airports watching people go past, then why does anyone care? I prefer to be out blowing stuff up or, as I call it, playing the game. ;)

[Artisan]

In my view MMoRPG's just aren't hardcore enough. You can come back to life, for Thor's sake! When you die in a game, it should delete you account, reformat your computer, demagnetise your credit cards and send twin bolts of electricity directly into your eyes!

...City of Heroes is pretty neat, though.

[Flashlight_Fish]

Is there a Guild War or WoW trial that anyone knows of?

http://www.fileplanet.com/163517/160000/fileinfo/World-of-Warcraft---Trial-Client

I believe this is what you're looking for, but I don't know about Guild Wars. You may have to download a number of patches before you play. If you decide to start a character on Silver Hand (RP server, means no unwanted PvP and supposedly everyone role plays their character, although in reality there isn't much RP at all), send me a PM and I'd be happy to show you around.

[Kish]

Exactly the reason I didn't choose WoW. I've been a Dark Age of Camelot player for over a year (Prydwen UK server), and still enjoying it.
[...]
Another thing you have to consider is the PvP aspect. I absolutely hate PvP. It's full of powergaming munchkins who have templated their characters to the max. So I avoid it. There's always plenty more to do.
This is interesting. I considered trying DaoC, and chose EQ2 and then WoW instead because the only thing the advertising for DaoC focused on was the PvP. You're saying it's completely optional and nonintrusive?

[The Evil Thing]

I remember having a large discussion with a group in the game about what exactly an ISK was (the game's currency) and what it stood for. And then some bright spark showed up and pointed out that it is the Icelandic Krona. :P Even now if you search 'isk' in Google you'll get more stuff about EVE than you will about Iceland's money of choice.

Personally, I don't think adding in anything like being able to meet people would enrich the game in any way, so I can't say that not having that feature makes the game any worse. Unless your idea of fun is hanging out at airports watching people go past, then why does anyone care? I prefer to be out blowing stuff up or, as I call it, playing the game. ;)

Too right, but hey, I guess it's important to people for their little avatars to be able to meet other avatars face to face so they can execute little 'chat' emotes or whatever it is they would do. Then again, it would be really funny to see people's pods rolling about in the stations.

Anyway, if my EVE trivia is up to scratch, ISK stands for InterStellar Kredit. Or, I guess that's how they justified it. :)

[Cybren]

I don't think I can think of any MMORPGs that i'd consider the best... I enjoyed planetside a lot, but that's not an MMORPG. In the end I think the genre needs to sort out its kinks. Due to the cost of production, most companies are unwilling to take risks.
This is why half of them are essentially identical(eq, wow, etc), and the ones that are unique, were made to be identical (UO, for example)

Being the best MMORPG is kind of like winning an ugly contest in my opinion.

[chrono]

In my view MMoRPG's just aren't hardcore enough. You can come back to life, for Thor's sake! When you die in a game, it should delete you account, reformat your computer, demagnetise your credit cards and send twin bolts of electricity directly into your eyes!

...City of Heroes is pretty neat, though.

Instead of making PvP and "chicken" servers, I think they should have made "standard" and "hardcore" realms like in Diablo. That was one of the best things in the game and I have no idea why it never caught on.

Hardcore mode (death is permanent) pretty much took care of 80% of the PKs since stupid people don't last long.

Why do people need non-PvP servers anyway? In real life you can be attacked by people who feel stronger and want to kick your ass for no reason. That happens in DnD, happens in fantasy books, movies, but the only place where it for some reason shouldn't happen is online.
The excitement of having to keep in mind that somebody may be ambushing you apart from the low AI monsters you are going to farm is unique. And ambushing somebody worthwhile if you know that death is permanent is all the more exciting.

I'm sorry but the way WoW is made just encourages stupidity and general lameness.

end of rant :)

[Tom_Violence]

Why do people need non-PvP servers anyway? In real life you can be attacked by people who feel stronger and want to kick your ass for no reason.

Its fairly simple. Some people don't want to have their asses kicked for no reason. Its kinda similar as to why we have poilce and stuff. :P


The excitement of having to keep in mind that somebody may be ambushing you apart from the low AI monsters you are going to farm is unique.

Unique it may be, but that doesn't make it necessarily enjoyable.


I'm sorry but the way WoW is made just encourages stupidity and general lameness.

Hence its success, I dare say. ;)

[The Evil Thing]

Instead of making PvP and "chicken" servers
As a full time carebear I resent that. :P Without us money-makers the economy would collapse.

[Kish]

Why do people need non-PvP servers anyway?

Because they, y'know, don't enjoy PvP?

[The Glyphstone]

I've been playing one called Knight Online for a while, and I like it a lot.

http://www.knightonlineworld.com

It's free to play, but buying a subscription gets you increased XP gain and better item drops. It's not for everyone - English speakers are actually a minority, it's huge in Europe (Greece/Turkey in particular) - and it's very difficult to solo monsters of any sort unless you're a warrior - the critters are lethal, and dying takes a chunk of your XP away, so parties are crucial...but it's very easy to form one, or just jump into an existing one.

They have a great deal of PvP, but it's done in an interesting way, via the system of "Wars". You can just kill monsters for XP and treasure all your life, but most people build up a Lvl50-60+ character to fight in the War that happens every week. There's two main areas, one for each side (like Horde+Alliance in WoW, except they're excluded from each other.. .EXCEPT for a certain Lunar Valley that connects the two. Every week, duing the War, people flood into that valley and kill each other (no loss of XP to a PK) - once the NPC "gatekeeper" is dead, the enemy's gate is open...and the victorious army gets to flood into the other side's territory and generally wreak havoc (anywhere, including the starting town/ressurection point), till the 2-hour fight is over and they get returned to their zone. Outside of Wars, there's only a few isolated spots (separated via special portals) where you risk PvP....and it's not really necessary, the monsters are easily capable of wasting you on their own.

They just added an expansion with loads of new features - but loads of new bugs as well, it's being sorted out.

(gasp....gasp.....deep breath.....no sales pitch....)

[Akiosama]

Instead of making PvP and "chicken" servers, I think they should have made "standard" and "hardcore" realms like in Diablo. That was one of the best things in the game and I have no idea why it never caught on.

Hardcore mode (death is permanent) pretty much took care of 80% of the PKs since stupid people don't last long.

Why do people need non-PvP servers anyway? In real life you can be attacked by people who feel stronger and want to kick your ass for no reason. That happens in DnD, happens in fantasy books, movies, but the only place where it for some reason shouldn't happen is online.
The excitement of having to keep in mind that somebody may be ambushing you apart from the low AI monsters you are going to farm is unique. And ambushing somebody worthwhile if you know that death is permanent is all the more exciting.

I'm sorry but the way WoW is made just encourages stupidity and general lameness.

end of rant :)

A few points regarding the rant:

In real life, there are real life consequences for attacking someone, as opposed to MMORPGs where in most cases the worst thing you can get is a 'dishonor point' or something like that. People don't go around beating people up in real life because you're likely to get arrested and such. There's no CSI Azeroth or Norrath P.D. to keep the average person safe. So comparing an MMORPG to real life in this way is like comparing apples to oranges.

Also, in real life, the amount of time you spend in the world doesn't make a difference. You have to spend 24 hours a day in the world. Period. MMORPGs have the benefit (?) of being selective time-wasting, and therefore people who spend more time (and from what I've seen there are a lot who are obsessive about it) in a particular game will severely overpower those who are more casual about it. This would be akin to putting myself (a 40 handicap golfer, if they went up that high) in a scratch tournament as Tiger Woods and saying, "You're on your own, noob." Many people, myself included, don't feel that's fun, nor do we want to be a notch on the sword of some obsessive, 12-hour-a-day playing MMORPG junkie who doesn't necessarily have any commitments to real life, and therefore makes my character look like a hamster in compaison to his giant - who can and probably will kick any character's butt that he comes across that he can beat with little to no risk, just because.

In D&D you do NOT have other players waiting to potentially ambush you around every corner. D&D is more or less a PvE environment, unless your DM is either a) really good at mediating Player conflicts both IC and OOC, b) completely nuts and doesn't care about the overall group dynamic, or c) a combination of the two...

As for the thrill - I find it, personally, more frustrating than thrilling, unless some sort of artificial restriction (like a level difference restriction or something like that) is put in place to protect the lower level players, and even then, I could mostly care less. I know I don't put the time into the game to become really good at PvP, and the idea of being stuck in a game that focuses on that aspect doesn't thrill me.

Last, about players targeting 'worthwhile' targets in PvP... I don't think that's necessarily the case. Being a lowbie in the wrong place at the wrong time is enough on a lot of PvP games to get a high level player to kill your character - it doesn't have to be 'beneficial' or 'worthwhile' to the PK-player to attack, and that's sort of the problem with general PvP. I heard of cases in one of the major PvP-enabled games where high-level characters would stake out newbie zones just to kill newbies because they could and it made them feel powerful. Some people compete, others bully. It's the bullies that make me not see PvP as potential fun.

It's sad...

But those are the major reasons I can think of why PvE is a good thing. Neither is better than the other, really. It just gives the players involved different aspects of the game to focus on and enjoy without having the other creep in too much if it is unwanted.

As for the hardcore mode bit, nobody wants to put a 300+ hour character up to the whims of either the AI or a Player Kill and lose it all in one shot. At least when doing Diablo 2, those players often knew the game inside and out from playing on the standard mode before trying something like that... and the buildup of power in Diablo 2 is faster than in most MMORPGs.

And if you want to see the total PvP mentality in action... try starting up on PlanetSide now. The only people still playing that game are those whose power levels make it impossible for anyone new to stand any chance at all. Since there's no AI bots to practice/learn on, there's no influx of new players at all - though it being a relatively old, static game isn't helping, either.

My 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

[Tom_Violence]

Guild Wars has good PVP, principally because its designed as a PVP game, tested as a PVP game, and updated as a PVP game. The major way they went about balancing the skills was to basically dump all the testers into PVP arenas, let them exploit the pants off it, and see where the major gaps were. And I think it works very well. The fact that anyone can instantly make a top level character is a good thing too, with the option of gaining an extra edge through rare skills and items, which really just allow you to customise your playstyle rather than overpower yourself. Pumping hours into the game just gets you practice and diversity of tactics.

Most other games, it seems, designed PvE environments and combat-systems (for their massive grind, most likely) and then expected it to translate well to PvP. 9 times out of 10, it doesn't quite work. The thing I hate most about such systems, though, is that they often basically eliminate any option to customise classes. So many times I've read people say "if you want to stand a chance at getting by as a so-and-so then you have to do such-and-such."

I have to argee with Akio on the bullying thing, even if that's probably not the best word for it, as bullying often requires having the same target over a long time whereas in MMOGs people get lost in the crowd pretty quick. But given that in many games you can kill a much lower level character almost by just walking past them, its not exactly a big surprise that picking on people can easily happen. To get any excitement out of PvP you surely have to have at least a chance of winning, and some desire to. Otherwise you might as well press the suicide button to get the thing over with as quickly as possible. :P

[The Evil Thing]

There's no CSI Azeroth
Yes, there is. (http://uk.pc.gamespy.com/articles/607/607958p1.html) :P

[Akiosama]

Yes, there is. (http://uk.pc.gamespy.com/articles/607/607958p1.html) :P


Heh. I stand corrected. ;)

Game on!

Akio

EDIT: And as for the 'bullying' thing... It's sort of a general bullying of a group of people, rather than one singular target... Though at that point, it sounds a lot like 'level-ism' - Tryin' to keep those lowbies down, y'know? ;D In either case, I think we agree on it, Tom. ;)

Further, with regards to Guild Wars vs. other MMORPGs, you don't necessarily have carbon copy characters at the top in GW as in other games. Given the nature of the game (only a few skills can be used at any given time, leading to strategies that aren't just "What have you equipped?" and "How many HP/How much Mana do you have?") leads to a more rich PvP environment. Quick advancement also adds to this, as you don't get stuck as a lowbie for very long. All in all, as you said, GW is made for PvP.

And Tom, if you listen to the boards, the 'lack of customization due to efficiency' isn't just an MMORPG thing... Quite a few people around here apply that idea to D&D as well. ;)

[Tom_Violence]

Hehehe, damn right about the 'level-ism' thing. Anyone that's ever seen the 'phrase' "OMFG NEWB" should be pretty clued up about that one. As to when exactly being new to a game was considered a peronality flaw, I don't know, but there it is. And the fact is that massive power differences allow for all manner of opportuinistic PKing.

The great thing about GW, in my book at least, is that its both an awesome PVP game and an awesome PVE game. Yes, it was tested etc. as a PVP game, but that's mainly for balance issues than anything else. The PVE side of it requires real thought and teamwork, once again becuase you have a max level, mainly. Its a game that rewards both diversity and specialisation, so long as its done smart. I just wish I knew more people that played it as my original gang pottered off.

And yeah, it does seem to be quite the challenge to make a game that doesn't obviously have 'optimum' builds in it. I'd glanced at some of the DND threads here and spotted a bit of that, but to be a honest I'm not a DNDer (never had the opportuinity really) beyond CRPGs so I guess I hadn't ever put two and two together there. ;) Is it generally considered to be much of a big deal amongst the DND community? Or is it more of a 'horses for courses' deal?

[Akiosama]

Heh, Tom, if you really want to see what's out there for 'character optimization' in D&D (pen and paper, not online), check out some of the stuff on the d20 gameboard - usually written by The Logic Ninja or Rei Jin. Pun-pun aside, they're masters at it, and have some ideas about 'proper' character building that will make you laugh and groan at the same time... (TLN + Monkey Grip, anyone? ;))

But GW is an ok game, in my book. I prefer WoW, mostly because it doesn't have as much of an inherent 'suspension of disbelief' issue that GW does (since GW has all non-city areas instanced - it doesn't feel right to go into an area and meet NO PCs at all...) Also, I felt that while the PvE (where I spend most of my time) was interesting on GW, that the the PvE was somewhat better developed on WoW. I felt like I was spinning my wheels some of the time on GW. Though I will continue to poke my head into that world now and then - I have friends who play and it's free to maintain. Haven't gotten Factions yet, though.

My 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

[Tom_Violence]

Hehe, while that does sound like an interesting exercise, I'm afraid that I just don't know enough about DnD rules, feats, etc. and would probably need an awful lot of study in order to make any sense of anything there. :P

I kinda know what you mean about the disbelief in GW, but I didn't ever feel any immersion in WoW either. Monsters spawning in your lap, the endless grind, the crazy outfits people have, and so on. GW at least doesn't really try and hide the fact that is very much that sort of game (one in which immersion isn't really much of an issue). Horses for courses though, I dare say. Especially because GW is about the only MMOG in which I've actually been quite satisfied with the PvE. ;)

[Borvo]

WoW, hands down.

[Lumenadducere]

I play Guild Wars and City of Heroes/Villains. I prefer the CoX games, but Guild Wars is fun, too, and it would make much more sense to get into that instead of something else because there's no monthly fee - you buy it, you play it, and that's that. And you can always get henchmen, yes, but at higher levels they reach a point where they die quickly...having a monk as a secondary (or primary) class would be recommended so you can heal yourself.

[Exachix]

Anarchy Online.
www.anarchyonline.com

Spacy. Fun. Cool. Horribly Confusing. And free until some point unless you get expansions then it costs. ((But the expansions rule))

[mcfats]

Guildwars never grabbed me, as much as I wanted it to.

CoX is insanely fun for a few weeks, and then you have "solved" it, and it loses any attraction to me.

Eve has a fantastic community and interesting game engine. It's the most adult MMO I have played. It also gets boring =/

WoW is my pick for best- you need to filter out large portions of the community, but after doing that you will still find a lot of fun people to play with. It is extremely solo friendly unless you want to do the hardest end-game content. It's also about the only second generation evolutionary MMO I can think of- it's basically an everquest that doesnt suck. All the other ones I have mentioned are more or less 1st generation because they defined the category that they are in. WoW didn't do anything innovative- they just did something well. The art direction is superb, the gameplay is fun, and the overall experience is humorous and engaging.

--tangents--
I do agree that it is very sad that nobody can experience the first 4 months of UO ever again.

the PVE servers of wow are actually very nice for pvp enthusiasts that prefer the level playing field of battlegrounds, and don't consider ganking/being ganked as a neccessary element.

[RabidGoat]

One I have been playing for about 6 months now is a little game called Dofus. Google it to find it. Anyways, its a great turn based strategy game, huge update tomorrow with new dungeons, monsters, etc etc etc.... If you like Final Fantasy Tactics then check this out!

[CaptainSam]

Kish, sorry about not replying, haven;t checked this thread for a while.

DAoC advertising does focus a lot on the RvR aspect, this is true. The RvR is completely optional. There will be times when you have to venture into the shared realms and run the risk of getting ganked by random roaming enemies, but if you're careful, this can be avoided. There are certain effects in-game related to the number of keeps held by enemy realms, but their influence is negligible (sp?).

As stated earlier, I abhor RvR. I see no point in spending all my time getting a character to max level just to take them out into RvRland to prove how oober I am at killing others who haven't templated their characters to the max. Granted, I have had bad experiences in RvR, but I'm with a guild who are mainly PvE anyway.

We have guild nights out, hit the higher level dungeons, fight our way in, complete the task and fight our way out. Success is by no means guaranteed and we have a laugh, especially if one of our members, the so-called "Pullmeister" manages to pull most of the mobs in a dungeon. Sometimes, I laugh so much I can't play.

don't know how much this is true, but I heard the average age of gamers on DAoC is about 30. Yay! I'm an average!

[Death, your friend the Reaper]

I did play my friends Guild War for a while, well till I got my ranger/elementalist up to level 20....

It find most of the people to be well behaved, unlike some MMRPG's I have played over the years. Although most tend to get slightly dull after a while of playing them...

[Dispozition]

I haven't played it myseld, but I have on good authority that D&D Online: Stormreach is good

[Maxymiuk]

I find EVE my favorite MMO so far (even coming out ahead of the MUDs) because of: a) the sheer amount of choice in what you can do, and b) no pressure on grouping. Since there's no "goal" as such, you don't have to go here or there and do this and that. It's up to you.

Granted, if you want to explore the lowsec (ie. more difficult) areas, you have to bring friends along, or have a really good ship with top-shelf weaponry and equipment (and the skills to use them effectively).

Also, death in EVE really counts for something. You lose the ship, for starters. That can be mitigated by insurance, but you also lose all your equipment and cargo (which isn't insured). And if you're podded (get your escape capsule destroyed) and your clone (think medical insurance) isn't up to date, you might even lose some of your skills. With the prevalency of PC pirates camping jumpgates in the border worlds, as well as the difficulty of PvE encounters rocketing up once you leave secure space, this game becomes all kinds of deadly. Which means you really think twice before setting out for the frontier, and once you're there, you're always on the edge of your seat, jumping every time a new contact indicator appears on the screen. As well, the high learning curve has the additional bonus of weeding out a large percentage of griefers and the like right at the start(pirates are usually the friendly "Give us a few million ISK as ransom and you may go unharmed" type).

[Firesong]

Ahead of the MUDs, eh? Well... I used to be a mudder, before things happened and I lost the ability to have a reliable connection, which makes muds completely un-fun. But before that, I managed to gain the opinion that Medievia is the supreme monarch of the MUD world. Why? The world detail is high, and the world is insanely large, for one thing, involving vast tracts of wilderness through which one can take trade caravans... but if one takes too long, you might find that other players have passed you and the price of goods has dropped. That's right, a player-driven economy, with random disasters to boot. And the dragons who hunt in the wilderness (you'll need help with those), and the mobfactions which hunt traders.

Add to that game atmosphere (quite good, aside from the thing known as Rocky who shouts occasionally... but the sense of humour showing up in a place or two adds a few things) the weather patterns (involving hurricanes, tornadoes, thunderstorms, rain... travelling in formations that resemble actual weather), the Catacombs (an evil-hunting lair), the special multiclassing system (you can read about that there), the clans (which actually will help you, and friendships can arise), the voluntary NPK and CPK areas (in chaotic player-kill, your corpse can be looted by other players; otherwise it cannot) and the fact that death (outside of CPK) wastes nothing but time (and money, if time was of the essense)... generally, one of the best games I've seen about. And I have looked.

If you want to check it out, it is at http://www.medievia.com/

On another note, has anyone else noticed that games without fancy graphics tend to rely more on developing the gameplay?

[Vazzaroth]

I don't liek grouping either. My schedule online is so random, I can;t commit to a group for a long time. I've found WoW to be very good for grouping, despite what those first couple posts said. Just don't do endgame. Besides, it will take awhile to get to 60 (or 70 soon) anyway.

The most very important thing however, is that WoW runs on Dial-up for me. :biggrin:

[Logical Wolf]

Hi,
Im new to this site. I tend to play alot of the online games out there. I dont know why, its like a uncontrolable driving instinct. AnyHow enough about that.
Here are some suggestions for newer ones and my opinions of them.
Guild wars. Lots of fun. for all the reasons mentiond.
Never Winter. Its ok, Ive been into D&D since a young Child so its a dream come true.
FLYFF ( Fly For Fun ) This game rocks. Mind you alot of ummmmm.... Idiots in this game, and some people with bad attitudes. but its easy enough to filter and or avoid them. Find a good group or go solo doesnt really matter becuse it doesnt change the game play at all. Im usualy in a larg party but Im off on my own till the low lvl players find me. oO ( then for some strange reason the party gets larger hmmm....)
WoW. Havnt tryed it yet. not really planing on it. my lil brother keeps begging me to play it with him, but ehhh not driven to play that game based off of what I have seen and heard.
These are a list of older or ummmm.... Less impresive graphics wise of the games I play online.
RuneScape. Like it, the only good way to play it is to start out free finesh all free quests then get membership asap. Dealing with the thieves punks hackers bad attitudes and the like on the f2p servres makes it hard to like the game.
Mu. Its a fun game easy grop or solo. no quests no story. Nothing but pvp or hack and slash.
WoS. (well of souls) Its a fun game you can play solo or play online. its fun either way. easy to creat your own world. Like most games it has alot of dinks in it. but luckly you can just ban them from your server or go to a GaG server. (Gods and Goddeses.)
Diablo. Its a peachy game, easy solo or group, but alot of super munchkins.


Honestly thats all I can think of for games at the moment.
if you try out flyff im on there in the Aibit server and my name is Sheran. Guild name is DegenerationX

[Sornas]

I have played a fair number of MMOs, so I thought I would put in my breakdown here. ^^

WoW: I am playing this currently. As far as the actual game is concerned, it is the best I have played. Nothing really stands out about it, but just about everything is covered well. The community is lousy, but you can get around that if you work at it. It is frustrating how GMs don't do anything about idiots on RP servers though, and I get the feeling I am going to hate end-game raiding, but we will see. (Highest character 39/60, Priest)

CoX: I loved these games, because the combat was awesome. The frustrating thing about it though, was that the combat was EVERYTHING in the game. No real economy, no gear (Though that may be a good thing, helps to lessen the PvP gap for the casual players), next to no environment interaction, and average amounts on RP. Costume creation is great though. I much prefered CoH, because the hero's synergized much better than the villains, while the villians were better soloing. (Highest character Low 30s Archery/Devices blaster)

SWG: This game had so much potential, if only the Devs cared about the game at all. I'm not a huge fan of SoE, but this really was a good game. There were loads of different ways you could take your character, and it's the only MMO I have found so far that allowed you to be a class that had nothing to do with combat. I don't mean a support class, I mean one that really had NOTHING to do with combat. I also loved the ability to make player-run towns. Unfortunatly, it suffered from grinding issues, a 100% player run economy, and no one taking advantage of GREAT RP oppertunities. And then SoE decides to totally change the way the game is, take out all of the varied classes and options, and replace them with 9 iconic classes, including Jedi, bleh. (Main character: Zabrak Brawler/Entertainer/marksman/Rebel heavy Xwing pilot.)

FFXI: I will admit, this was my first MMO, so I really didnt know how to go about playing one at this point, but I found the game lousy. slow combat, all-but-forced grouping, elitism, and very limited varience in character designs/builds/concepts. I played a Tarutaru black mage, and when I switched classes to try out warrior for a bit, I was followed by screams of "NOOB!" and the like...except for that one person who clapped at me and gave me some money, that was nice. ^^ I also like the idea of being able to change your class anytime. It makes up for the extra charge for extra characters...almost. (Tarutaru White mage 10ish Black mage 10ish Warior 10ish)

DDO: Stormreach: I only played the trial for this, but it was okay. I don't like the idea of all the action being in instanced areas, but the way they did it felt a little better to me than, say, Guild Wars. Partying was a must, and because it is DnD, there was at least a moderate amount of character options. I think SWG spoiled me when it came to character options though. :P (Level 3-4ish Fighter, they put 5 sort of mini-levels in between each normal character level)

Guild Wars: I tried, I really did, but I didn't play this one for very long. I borrowed it from a friend for a little while, and I just couldn't bear to play a game where the world is instanced. It drove me nuts. That being said, it does have a lot of great features, and if the big-wide world being completely devoid of intellegent life aside from you and your party isn't a problem to you, this would be a great choice for you. (I dont even remember my character anymore.)

Dark ages: NOT dark age of camelot, I have yet to play that one, this one is a MMO you can go download and play for $10 a month. RP is strictly enforced, and the player base creates a great, interactive world full of organized religion, player-run politics, and the like. That being said, the combat is lousy, there is very little direction in what to do, and some of the people get a little creepy with the roleplaying. Great for RP, but I dont think RP alone is worth a monthly fee.
(I dont remember the level, but I was a priest in the church of the goddess of love and healing. Anything OOC said in the church was considered herasay, so that was always fun. :P)

I'm sure there are more, but that is all I can think of off the top of my head. If I had to pick a best one, what with SWG a husk of it's former self. I would say, if you like accomplishment, being drawn-in to the game, and getting gear/economy manipulating, go with WoW. If you like quick-paced combat with nice character customization, and teamwork, go with CoX, oh, and for anyone who doesn't know, if you subscribe to CoH, supscription to CoV is free, and vice-versa.

[Tormsskull]

I used to play text-based MUDs a while ago, those were always fun if you had a good imagination. Since those I have played WOW and DDO. WOW is a lot of fun, but can get repetitive. The quests are pretty much the same thing over and over with different names, it can become annoying. Aside from that fact, there is so much to do in WOW that you'll find yourself immersed for hours on top of hours.

DDO was very disappointing to me. I went in expecting a tabletop-like D&D experience but instead was treated to a WOWified version of D&D, which I hate. Some of you may be thinking that I'm sounding contradictory, but I am really not. WOW is a great game for WOW. D&D played like WOW is horrible.

[warbacon]

I find it strange that this thread has gone on for so long without mentioning Everquest II. I mean, I understand the EverCrack taboo to some extent, but honestly, it's actually designed to not be EQ1 and not require insane investments of time to have fun. Not to mention you can have up to 75 quests in your journal, and my journal is mostly full all the time :smallsmile: It's very PvE and very forgiving, so you don't need to raid or spend a lot of time finding equipment to make yourself useful, although superior equipment and ability items make you much more effective. These are not in short supply and are good items are generally pretty cheap on the broker. Not to mention the crafting system.

Soloing is very doable up through most of the game, some classes more than others, although there is group and raid content for all levels. For the most part, annoying haxx0r kiddies don't play EQ2 past level 20. Just about everyone I've grouped with past 30 was a solid player and didn't cause any grief. The combat system is pretty interesting, but I won't say anything about it here.

I'll admit that the graphics leave something to be desired ... they're detailed and such, but just ... awkward? maybe? cold? I dunno. (I hate WoW's art style, though, for anyone who wants to argue that point.)

That being said, I still think Asheron's Call has the best skill and levelling system, hands down.

[Reinforcements]

WoW is also my favorite MMO. Admittedly I haven't played that many, though - the only others are Guild Wars and Final Fantasy XI. Guild Wars I don't like, but I don't really know why. For some reason, whenever I played it I felt like I was inconsequential to what was going on - like I could watch an AI play my character and get the same experience of actually playing it. FFXI, on the other hand, is a massive, steaming pile of crap. I actually can't believe anyone gets to the level cap in that game. Seriously, it's painful. Pretty, though.

[The Evil Thing]

Hoorah for CCP improving EVE. Again. Travel time is drastically reduced (Warp to 0km FTW!), new ships have been added, a formal contract system for business deals has been created and fleet combat has been streamlined and greatly improved. The new squadron command system overhauls the old gang system to make mass PvP far more straightforward (although you need to train new skills to do all this, natch :smalltongue:)

[Tom_Violence]

Hoorah for CCP improving EVE. Again. Travel time is drastically reduced, new ships have been added, a formal contract system for business deals has been created and fleet combat has been streamlined and greatly improved. The new squadron command system overhauls the old gang system to make mass PvP far more straightforward (although you need to train new skills to do all this, natch :smalltongue:)

Sounds like its time to crack that little gem out once again. I wonder if anyone I know still plays it...

[The Evil Thing]

If you do, look me up. :smalltongue:

[warbacon]

... Travel time is drastically reduced (Warp to 0km FTW!), ...

Whoa. Are you serious? Like, no more getting pwnt by 10 year old gate campers when you're not looking?

[Daedrous Avari]

Rant Warning!

I honestly don't think MMORPG's are games. MMORPGs are these things that make you put months of your life into doing the same thing over and over again just so you can say "haha im level 50 nub." The other thing is it shouldn't be MMORPG - Just MMOPVPG (Massively Multiplayer online Player Versus Player Game.) I tried playing everybody's apparent favorite MMORPG, WoW, and ended up dying on level 5. Overall what I'm trying to say is - MMORPGs are "1337" PVP games that force people to lose their social life in exchange for repetitive gameplay.

[The Evil Thing]

Whoa. Are you serious? Like, no more getting pwnt by 10 year old gate campers when you're not looking?
Damn straight. Of course, autopilot will still warp to 15km; it's intended as a replacement for instas. I think that's great because my character doesn't now take 2 minutes to load from all the bookmarks. :smallbiggrin:


I honestly don't think MMORPG's are games. MMORPGs are these things that make you put months of your life into doing the same thing over and over again just so you can say "haha im level 50 nub." The other thing is it shouldn't be MMORPG - Just MMOPVPG (Massively Multiplayer online Player Versus Player Game.) I tried playing everybody's apparent favorite MMORPG, WoW, and ended up dying on level 5. Overall what I'm trying to say is - MMORPGs are "1337" PVP games that force people to lose their social life in exchange for repetitive gameplay.
I think you'll find most multiplayer games follow that system. FPSs? All you do is shoot stuff. RTSs? Follow set build orders and use the same basic strategies with a few clever variations. Why should MMORPGs be any different?

[Tom_Violence]

I think you'll find most multiplayer games follow that system. FPSs? All you do is shoot stuff. RTSs? Follow set build orders and use the same basic strategies with a few clever variations. Why should MMORPGs be any different?


Because MMOGs generally involve even more repetition than other games, and often have a very limited number of 'right' ways to do things? That's been my opinion anyway.

[Tormsskull]

Rant Warning!

I honestly don't think MMORPG's are games. MMORPGs are these things that make you put months of your life into doing the same thing over and over again just so you can say "haha im level 50 nub." The other thing is it shouldn't be MMORPG - Just MMOPVPG (Massively Multiplayer online Player Versus Player Game.) I tried playing everybody's apparent favorite MMORPG, WoW, and ended up dying on level 5. Overall what I'm trying to say is - MMORPGs are "1337" PVP games that force people to lose their social life in exchange for repetitive gameplay.

With that point of view everything you do is basically just wasting time until you die. I mean, all games are supposed to be diversions. If you are one of these people that get addicted to a game and play it 16 hours a day, then you need to step back and get yourself some help.

WOW is a great game. It has its downfalls, just as every game does. When you say you died on level 5, was this to a player or a mob? If you died to a player, that's your fault. "Normal" type WOW servers protect the players from PVP unless they turn it on themself. If you choose to get onto a PVP server, then you're taking your own risks (I prefer PVP severs but since all my friends play on a Normal server I transfered him there). Also, even if you were on a PVP server, there's absolutely no reason to leave the "safe" areas at level 5.

If you are talking about dying to a mob, welcome to RPGs in general.

[warbacon]

Damn straight. Of course, autopilot will still warp to 15km; it's intended as a replacement for instas. I think that's great because my character doesn't now take 2 minutes to load from all the bookmarks. :smallbiggrin:

Wait, so how is that different? Do you mean there's an in-game way to have insta coords without the massive bookmark list?

[ozymand1as]

Just to be the insane one here, I like Kingdom of Loathing. Its fun AND free. Yay.

[warbacon]

Ahhh Kingdom of Loathing ... I kinda sorta miss thee, a bit. :smallbiggrin: What was I again? A pasta thief? No, those were pastamancers. A disco thief seems a little more familiar ...

Also, can someone confirm or deny my ability to completely avoid annoying bully PvPers at warp gates in EVE? I never had the cash to buy the waypoint lists people sold, but someone mentioned that there was a new way?

Also, bump. This has been a good thread so far.

[Zeb The Troll]

Kish, sorry about not replying, haven;t checked this thread for a while.

DAoC advertising does focus a lot on the RvR aspect, this is true. The RvR is completely optional. There will be times when you have to venture into the shared realms and run the risk of getting ganked by random roaming enemies, but if you're careful, this can be avoided. There are certain effects in-game related to the number of keeps held by enemy realms, but their influence is negligible (sp?).

As stated earlier, I abhor RvR. I see no point in spending all my time getting a character to max level just to take them out into RvRland to prove how oober I am at killing others who haven't templated their characters to the max. Granted, I have had bad experiences in RvR, but I'm with a guild who are mainly PvE anyway.

We have guild nights out, hit the higher level dungeons, fight our way in, complete the task and fight our way out. Success is by no means guaranteed and we have a laugh, especially if one of our members, the so-called "Pullmeister" manages to pull most of the mobs in a dungeon. Sometimes, I laugh so much I can't play.

don't know how much this is true, but I heard the average age of gamers on DAoC is about 30. Yay! I'm an average!
I'd like to add my vote to DAoC. I'm one of those weirdos who plays MMO's and likes to be able to solo on occasion.

WoW didn't interest me because of the lack of an endgame. DDO didn't keep my interest because of the lack of things to do if I don't want a group. EVE was just too.... weird. I like my gaming Swords and Sorcery, frankly. Nothing against those that aren't, just not my thing. I tried Shadowbane too (after it became free, admittedly) and it was the epitome of everything I don't like about PvP. It was also very elitist. I'll admit that elitism isn't absent in any other game I've played, to include DAoC, but it was downright harsh in Shadowbane.

On to what I like about DAoC and some clarifications about it too.

First, I can solo if I want to. It's entirely possible to get to the top levels without any assistance at all (though I don't recommend it). I like grouping with friends that I've made when they're around though, and I've made quite a few friends in game.

Second, I can PvP if I want to. Now this is important. Player vs Player in this game is Realm vs Realm combat*. The story line/setting is set up around there being three different "realms" (Midgard, Hibernia, and Albion) vying for the throne of Arthur after he's passed on (thus the name of the game). Now, RvR isn't PvP like most people understand it. You cannot be PK'd while you're shopping for gear or hunting for xp or farming for loot. In order to participate in the PvP aspect (henceforth referred to as RvR) you have to actually go into an RvR zone. There is nothing in the game that requires you to go into these zones. Ever. Some quests may ask you to go there, but you are not obliged to complete the quest and you can delete it from your quest list if you want.

Third, the PvE is, in my opinion, very well fleshed out. Yes, there are encounters that require a raid. Yes, there are encounters that can be most easily accomplished by "zerging" it. However, again, you are under no obligation to participate in these and can get quite a bit of enjoyment out of the game without it. There are quests. There are richly detailed and well written quests to do. And lots of them.

I'm one of those people that is fairly balanced between liking RvR and liking PvE. I also fall mid spectrum on small group/soloing and all out raiding. When I'm not in RvR, one of my favorite things to do is to help others in game complete tasks/quests/missions in order to better their character in some way (ie get credit for some new ability or some desirable gear, for example).

Also, about the average age of players in the game, I'm not sure it's as high as 30 as I group with teenagers quite often, but there are plenty of people who are late 20's and older. (I'm in my mid-30's and some of my guildmates are in their 40's). Even the teens I group with you wouldn't know it without talking to them most times.

Any of you here that play, if you happen to play Midgard/Devon, look me up. My character's names always start with Zeb (and I like playing trolls too, thus the name :smallwink: ).

*There are a handful of "special ruleset" servers that satisfy differing play styles in addition to the normal servers.

If you are really into the PvP style where everyone is fair game and everywhere is a combat zone, there is a PvP server that is fittingly named Mordred. This server is centered on what some would call Guild vs Guild instead of RvR. And there are still safe zones there.

If you are interested in being able to explore all areas of all realms (normal servers restrict you to combat zones and your own realm for the most part) and potentially grouping with races and classes of other realms, there is a cooperative server named Gaheris. There is no RvR on this server. The RvR zones are populated by PvE monsters/characters.

If you are interested in roleplay, there are RP servers (though I can't think of the names right now) where staying in character is enforced by the game staff.

So you see, there's something for everyone! :smallbiggrin:

PS - I'd be happy to elaborate on anything if anyone is interested.

[pestilenceawaits]

I haven't played a ton of them but I loved Dark Age of Camelot and WoW looks pretty awesome.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

so far I've tried the WoW and the DDO ten day free trials. They're both ok, but when it comes down to it, they're really only hack and slash quest games. unless you are in a guild, there's virtually no roleplaying at all, especially in DDO. It's not like NWN, where your choice of action and words change what happens in the game. I've not yet played SW:Galaxies, but I've downloaded it and will try out that 10 day trial after I get done with DDO. Personally, I'm holding out for LOTR online. Personally, my two favorite RPG's aren't MM, they're NWN, and SW:KOTOR. They both have a ton of roleplaying in them.

[Maxymiuk]

Also, can someone confirm or deny my ability to completely avoid annoying bully PvPers at warp gates in EVE? I never had the cash to buy the waypoint lists people sold, but someone mentioned that there was a new way?

I can confirm it, since I now make regular excursions into lowsec, and I have yet to encounter a gate camp. Most of the pirates target asteroid belts now, since there's always a chance of catching a miner off-guard.

[The Evil Thing]

Wait, so how is that different? Do you mean there's an in-game way to have insta coords without the massive bookmark list?
Yeah, basically you have instas for every stellar body in the game (for free) that are effectively 100% reliable (station ones may land you a couple of km away, though).


I can confirm it, since I now make regular excursions into lowsec, and I have yet to encounter a gate camp. Most of the pirates target asteroid belts now, since there's always a chance of catching a miner off-guard.
I wouldn't rely on there being an end to gatecamps. They're much rarer, granted, but alpha-ing snipers can still catch indies which take decades to warp off and if you run into a bubble you're knobbled anyway. Also, watch out in belts as stabs now carry a rather draconian locking penalty.

I mostly stay in high sec and grind my way to a free(ish) CNR. :smallbiggrin:

[warbacon]

Oh my, my. I just posted in the EVE thread about this game, making me want to play again. And now here you two black dragons just told me that the reason I left is now moot.

Hallelujah! Man, I want to play again. Then again, I lost something like 50 mil or so (and some skill points) when those gate campers blew up my Amarr CattleBruiser. I loved my CattleBruiser.

[Sahegian]

I'd put in my vote for WoW. As far as MMO's go World of Warcraft is simply more polished and it just has the feel of a higher production value. Going from WoW to other MMO's is kind of like watching the Lord of the Rings and then watching the D&D movies. WoW is well written which makes it interesting to play and the game is easy enough to be fun without crunching numbers yet deep enough to let you min/max and power game to your hearts content if that is what you like.

I'm not a big fan of the art style, but all in all it looks better than nearly any of the other games out there and huge shoulderpads and weapons aside a lot of the monsters and effects look great. The heavy population can be an annoyance if you prefer a solo experience, so keep that in mind. My biggest complaint with the game, however, is that it turns into a very raid oriented time intensive game after reaching 60 if you are interested in the high end gear. Personally, I'd say it is worth buying and playing your way up to 60. If you get there and don't like it sell the character on ebay and get $50 or whatever back and move on to something else.

[Shikton]

I've played DAoC, EQ, DAoC again, WoW and then DAoC.

The first two DAoC runs were fun enough, seeing as people who played still had a brain back then. Then they introduced the insta-level 20 thing for people who had a level 50, which completely destroyed the early game fun for newbies. And now the game is all about artifact hunting which is boring as hell. It used to be about getting into a group to go kick the s*** out of random mobs to see how far you could push yourself and get some 'phat lewt', and also going to dungeons to kick some behind. That's what I loved about it at least. That and crafting. You could always find a group, and it would more often than not be good. At least in my experience. But not during my 3rd time through.

Everquest was also pretty good, but seeing as I was playing a cleric and everyone and their grandma had different ideas on how to play one and force it upon others, I began to get sick of that and found enjoyment in doing my job as party healer and lifesaver until someone began to tell me how to play. Do NOT tell me how to play. That's when I started to just sit down. Let them find out how crap of a job I actually did. All parties died then. Suckers. But I found a good guild after a while, which is pretty much crucial, and we all played our parts well. Guess you just have to be a bit lucky.

WoW was fun-ish. I played a paladin up to level...almost 40. Got a bit boring since I had to solo quite a lot, and I hate soloing. Too much of a social guy to play through a massive multiplayer game alone. Pallys use the longest time EVER to kill a mob too, so naturally I got bored. Then quit. Not to mention I played on a PvP server, and the places I could level at were infested by friggen Hordes. I died lots. :(

Anyway, those are my experiences. Dunno if they help or make sense or are in context or whatever, but I had this on my heart and had to type it up. For some reason. Meh.

[The Evil Thing]

Oh my, my. I just posted in the EVE thread about this game, making me want to play again. And now here you two black dragons just told me that the reason I left is now moot.
Yes, heed the wisdom of the black dragons. They are always right.

Also, Prophecies are naff. Buy a better ship, like a Ferox, or a Drake. Mmmm, Drake.

[Crispy Dave]

wow is fun and i have to disagree with grouping on it you dont have to group you can run around on your own killing thing .the servers are anyoying because theres a limit to a server and you cant use caricters on difrent serves you started them on

guild wars is fun too the grouping in it is anying though

[Tussy the Druid]

Guild wars. I love guild wars. So fun..... Anyway. Yeah, i'd recommend guild wars if you haven't gotten it (read about the first page of the forum, bout it.)

[Zeb The Troll]

The first two DAoC runs were fun enough, seeing as people who played still had a brain back then. Then they introduced the insta-level 20 thing for people who had a level 50, which completely destroyed the early game fun for newbies. And now the game is all about artifact hunting which is boring as hell. It used to be about getting into a group to go kick the s*** out of random mobs to see how far you could push yourself and get some 'phat lewt', and also going to dungeons to kick some behind. That's what I loved about it at least. That and crafting. You could always find a group, and it would more often than not be good. At least in my experience. But not during my 3rd time through.
I'd like to address the artifact hunting issue here. I'm not sure how long ago you tried DAoC but they've made a few changes you might be interested.

First off, they've really toned down Trials of Atlantis (ToA for those who don't play). Now, to get an artifact all you need is the encounter credit and the scrolls. There is no longer an actual item that needs to be collected. Also, they've increased the drop rates of all of the scrolls. Getting an artifact nowadays is much, much easier. They've even got NPC's that will tell you which mobs are more likely to drop the scrolls you need. Likewise, so is getting all of the Master Level trials done. There are constant raids and the leader is able to grant credit to someone who, maybe LD'd or for some other weirdness, didn't get credit for up to ten minutes after each encounter. Also, they've simplified many of the encounters. If you remember the marathon 12 hour raid that used to be ML3, that can be done in a couple of hours from start to finish now.

Second, if you really just don't want to have to deal with any of the artifacts and ML's, there are three Classic servers which are basically the same as the normal servers but there is no Atlantis. There are no artifacts. There are no ML's. And ALL buffs have a range on them (I think it's 5000 units).

Something to think about.

[TheOOB]

I've played my share of online rpgs in my time. I used to MUD a bit, but between my favorite MUD being removed, and the eye strain of looking at lines of text for hours on end I quit.

World of Warcraft is a good game at first, but the more I played it the more I don't like it. The first 59 levels are great, but after level 60 you are reduced to running 40 man 6+ hour long grindfests for the next more shiny piece of gear. Add this to the fact that I think blizzard acually manages to make the game less and less balanced each patch and that they ignore all the really important problums and you can see why I vowed not to play WoW again.

What is in City of Heroes/Villians is absolutly great, it's just thats theres not much there. Theres an amazing amount of character customization, not just in appearance but also in abilities, and the combat is some of the most fun and intense combat in any MMO, but eventually killing random villan/hero #257 gets boring.

Star Wars Galaxies, ahh SWG. I have never seen a game with so many great ideas be so horrible. The idea that you could do almost anything and quite literally control your own economy was great, but the combat system was poor, and it always rubbed me the wrong way that I had to "forget" some skills to learn new ones a'la ultima online. Don't get me started on the relaunce, 60% of the galaxies population are not jedi.

Truth be told, I haven't played EVE online much. I'm not too crazy about the steep learning curve, but I see many of the elements I loved in SWG, but pulled off well. I may acually start playing it for reals if I find a guide/someone to teach me how to play well. One thing I will say though, I would like the ability to leave my pod and travel around space stations, even if it's just a glorified chat-room. It would help get you more attached your character and their allies, as well as do things like plan elaborate battle stratagies in a map room. Kinda like the base feature in CoH/V.

[Shikton]

To Zeb: Yeah, I did play after that, but still found it a chore. =P I had a level 46 by the time I quit, and the I had to come along for arti hunts to have something to do. Quite hard to solo the taskmaster quests as a lil thiefy kobold. Not to mention I'm more of a group player too... :( Didn't really feel like going back to scratch at that point. I loved the game the first two times, so the classic serves would probably be up my alley, but as it is now I just have DAoC stuck in my throat and I don't know whether to swallow or spit it out. Will probably wait for some upcoming MMO as I really enjoy the genre.

[The Evil Thing]

I may acually start playing it for reals if I find a guide/someone to teach me how to play well.Those people are ten a penny in the n00b corps, and I (or others) can help out if you like.


One thing I will say though, I would like the ability to leave my pod and travel around space stations, even if it's just a glorified chat-room. It would help get you more attached your character and their allies, as well as do things like plan elaborate battle stratagies in a map room. Kinda like the base feature in CoH/V.This is not Freelancer. If you consider this to be a defining feature in a multiplayer space sim then EVE is not for you. Why the devil would you want to get attached to your (and other people's) avatars? Wouldn't you rather get to know the people controlling them?

[pestilenceawaits]

I'd like to address the artifact hunting issue here. I'm not sure how long ago you tried DAoC but they've made a few changes you might be interested.

First off, they've really toned down Trials of Atlantis (ToA for those who don't play). Now, to get an artifact all you need is the encounter credit and the scrolls. There is no longer an actual item that needs to be collected. Also, they've increased the drop rates of all of the scrolls. Getting an artifact nowadays is much, much easier. They've even got NPC's that will tell you which mobs are more likely to drop the scrolls you need. Likewise, so is getting all of the Master Level trials done. There are constant raids and the leader is able to grant credit to someone who, maybe LD'd or for some other weirdness, didn't get credit for up to ten minutes after each encounter. Also, they've simplified many of the encounters. If you remember the marathon 12 hour raid that used to be ML3, that can be done in a couple of hours from start to finish now.

Second, if you really just don't want to have to deal with any of the artifacts and ML's, there are three Classic servers which are basically the same as the normal servers but there is no Atlantis. There are no artifacts. There are no ML's. And ALL buffs have a range on them (I think it's 5000 units).

Something to think about.

I started to play on the classic servers it was pretty nice. It got ridiculous on the old servers with all the arty raids and stuff but it sounds like it is better now I may need to reload my software.

[GuesssWho]

Cthulhu Nation!

Urban Dead is cool, too.

[Setra]

I have played a huge amount of MMOs, most of which are free. All I can say is I have yet to prefer a 'free' game to one you have to buy, though Space Cowboy was pretty fun, it's an MMORPG where you fly around as a Jet, the only problem being it's still an MMO, and like 99% of MMOs, it's simply grinding.

Guild Wars on the other hand, I found is much more fun, unlike a lot of people, or so it would seem, I love to group up for quests, missions, as well as pvp, and even though you don't have to it's fun to play.

MMOs are rather boring, almost all of them have the same formula...

Grind, get a quest, finish it, get another one, grind some more, etc. For the most part it has turned me off of MMOs in particular.

Maybe you should try that one game.. ahh what is it? Planetside? I was considering that game.

[Tom_Violence]

MMOs are rather boring, almost all of them have the same formula...

Grind, get a quest, finish it, get another one, grind some more, etc. For the most part it has turned me off of MMOs in particular.

At the risk of sounding like Morpheus - I know exactly what you mean.

I find the entire market not worth bothering with these days.

[Madalin]

Kingdom of Loathing really is great.
It's a humorous parody of an MMORPG at heart, but it's a very deep game if you get into it. Its only real "flaw" is its graphics, which are just stickfigures, but they keep the 'tards on the internet away, leaving mostly nice people, making for one of the best communities on the intarwebs.

Almost everything in the game is a reference, a pun, or a joke. A few examples.

The level 3 quest is killing tavern rats, an obvious reference to the RPG cliche of tavern rat killing.
The level 10 quest includes the Penultimate Fantasy Airship, which is a parody of mainly FF7, but also RPGs in general.
An area called the Hole in the Sky is full of double entendre monsters, like the Trouser Snake, the Hooded Warrior, the Twig and Berries, and the Skinflute.

All in all, it's a fun, interesting, and cool game that I HIGHLY reccomend. It's also free, and even donation items are relatively easy to acquire for non-donators, so you don't need to pay any money at all to fully enjoy the game.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Ahem. Rubies of Eventide. (http://www.eventide.net/) It is a free game with some of the best graphics for a free game I have seen, plenty of customization, and it is just darn cool.

I will also cast a vote for EVE- because say, I am getting bored but I still wanna get better skills and stuff, I can start training and stop playing, and I am still advancing. All the fun of PvP with much less grinding.

[Jerthanis]

As far as MMO's go, I've only played Guild Wars, WoW and City of Heroes/Villains, and Guild Wars has apparently changed a great deal since I played it.

Guild Wars was fun, but strictly in a gameplay sense, people didn't communicate with each other except to arrange groups, which was streamlined because each quest had special areas to find the people who were looking to do it. Those quests, while interesting, didn't hold my attention, soloing was extremely hard and hiring faceless henchmen seems like it's a failing of the system to accommodate for multiple playstyles (though I guess it is accounting for them, just in a sort of wierd way) Overall, I like this MMO, but only because I like the skill system and visual quality. It seems however, to be a kind of storyline weak single player RPG that you have to play multiplayer and over the internet... if that makes any sense.

WoW, I never really got. It's the epitome of a sort of play that never appealed to me. A sort of ritualized "MMO-style" of gameplay which is draconian and silly. The nature of "pulling" is just so foriegn to me, tempting bad AI away from its buddies so that you have the chance to face them alone which, in many cases, is the only way you can beat them. And while Soloing is certainly possible, you won't complete the best quests for the best experience and loot. And without the best loot and the experience you might need to grind for a couple more hours before qualifying for the next area. I found soloing to be tantamount to impossibility past level 14.

City of Heroes however, is extremely entertaining from the time you start making your character. Designing your own unique look for use in an MMO is astounding. Your options are nearly limitless in comparison to other MMOs where you can perhaps select from as many as ten different faces and eight different hairstyles. Add to this the fact that you can later gain "extra" costumes which you can switch between whenever you want. Then you get to select primary and secondary powers, which can have an astounding effect on your options. An Archery/Ice Manipulation Blaster will play almost completely differently from an Ice Blast/Ice Manipulation Blaster. The downside to this fashion is that once you select your powersets, that's pretty much the linear progression you have until 50. You get some access to Tertiary powersets, but they are mostly just your travel powers. I for one, enjoy the fact that there is no equipment or inventory. Freedom from the nested inventory menus, freedom from calculating exactly how many cracked boar tusks you need to collect before you can afford that Steel Hilted Broadsword that you'll use for two levels before getting something better in a quest. No crafting system? It's not like a lot of crafting on MMOs are very interesting or deep, since they often follow a very linear course. I hear EQ2 is actually really awesome at crafting, but I've never played that one. No aspect beyond combat? Well, since the combat is enormously fun, I don't see the problem. Inability to solo? Not actually true, though it's certainly easier with certain classes. I prefer to think of it as "solo is not actually required" as it makes the group experience so fun that I can hardly see a reason to bother soloing. If you want to solo though, it's even more feasable, since the instanced dungeons are scaled to the abilities and numbers of the people who enter, that means that no matter how many people you have, you have an appropriate challenge. Getting TO the dungeon can become the hardest part, but learning how to avoid enemies, and looking before you leap (and clever use of the jumping ability in CoH, planning and skill at platforming can sometimes get you past unwinnable fights) will help that.

I can be reminded of City of Heroes style combat when watching Azumi, and seeing a group of three skilled warriors fighting against an army and routing them, and that's an amazing contrast to WoW style combat where a person is a legendary idiot for thinking that fighting a group of enemies is possible without drawing them out one by one.

[Penguinizer]

Ahhh Kingdom of Loathing ... I kinda sorta miss thee, a bit. :smallbiggrin: What was I again? A pasta thief? No, those were pastamancers. A disco thief seems a little more familiar ...

Also, can someone confirm or deny my ability to completely avoid annoying bully PvPers at warp gates in EVE? I never had the cash to buy the waypoint lists people sold, but someone mentioned that there was a new way?

Also, bump. This has been a good thread so far.
I think its Accordion Thief and Disco Bandit.

Fun game is KoL none the less.

[Reinforcements]

I found soloing to be tantamount to impossibility past level 14.
Um... no offense, but I can hardly believe you actually played WoW at all if you think this is true. You can easily solo all the way to 60 - not every quest, of course, and you can't do dungeons by yourself, but you could do it without too much trouble (not that I could imagine why you'd want to). If you said the same thing about Final Fantasy XI I'd believe you (although I'd say 'past level 10' in that case), but WoW is very casual-friendly all the way up to the very end of the endgame.

[Jerthanis]

Um... no offense, but I can hardly believe you actually played WoW at all if you think this is true. You can easily solo all the way to 60 - not every quest, of course, and you can't do dungeons by yourself, but you could do it without too much trouble (not that I could imagine why you'd want to). If you said the same thing about Final Fantasy XI I'd believe you (although I'd say 'past level 10' in that case), but WoW is very casual-friendly all the way up to the very end of the endgame.

Easily is a relative term, remember, and if I wanted to grind for 60 hours I'd play a Dragon Quest game and at least get a little bit of a storyline as well. If you're bad at judging what will aggro a group of enemies, or are bad at tactical retreats, soloing is tantamount to impossibility. Now that I think about it though, I DO remember eventually getting to 21 with mostly soloing, but I also remember dying a LOT, and I quit because I had run out of quests I could accomplish solo at all. I COULD have ground mobs until I was strong enough to do them, but I didn't want to play that game. I did play it a long time ago, and only for two months, so that's why I misremembered what level I got to. Now that I remember I can also complain that travel forms and powers came too late in the game. I got Teleport thinking it would solve my woes of having to walk for hours back and forth between quest givers and quests, but it was just a way to return to major cities quickly, and at the cost of inventory space and money. Then there's the notorious "saving/grinding for your mount" which I thankfully never had to endure.

What it comes down to, is that WoW is actually pretty hard, as each appropriate leveled enemy will challenge an individual character, and monsters tend to hang out in groups. There was also no universal party matching service when I played, and according to a friend who still plays, no one uses the party matching service that they've since introduced. When I play City of Heroes I just put myself up on the looking for group boards and within a few minutes I've got an invite to a group where I have a rousing good time of "defeat five times your number in enemies, gain a lot of experience, repeat." Straight fun gameplay with ease of play and viability of almost any build with a lack of complicated equipment, with relatively quick levelling sounds like it caters much more to the "casual" MMORPGer than, you know, the opposite of all of those besides fun gameplay.

[Setra]

I have never had to Grind in a Dragon Quest game (Exception: The first one)

[Cubey]

Jerthanis:

I never had to grind in World of Warcraft, and I am level 60. I DID grind, I admit, sometimes, but it was because I wanted to, not because I had. And frankly, the rewards weren't worth it.

I didn't have any trouble getting money for the standard level 40 mount. I got some lucky drops which I sold for nice money at the auction house... but even more common, easy-to-get things sell at the AH. Copper bars for example, and you don't have to grind them because the newbie lands (for example Elwynn Forest) are FULL of them.

An equal-level enemy being a challenge to a character? Maybe an elite, which appear only in special places or instances, where you should go to only with a group anyway. But if you had a problem with a regular monster of your level, no - even with 2 monsters of the same level, then you (no offense intended) really didn't know how to play your class. As a heala-priest (horrible at solo) I was able to easily kill 2 creatues with theoretically equal power, as a warrior (PvP, not PvE specced!) I steamroll through groups.

The Looking For Group isn't that good because you can use it only to find people for elite quests and instances. And some non-elite quests MIGHT be too difficult for one character at yellow level. Note, some - about 4-5, out of hundreds. What's the real problem is that you often get retards to join at your pick-up-groups. It's not the system's fault though, because you used to get retards to join even before. And contrary to what your friend has said, I found it easier to make a group with the new system in place.

In WoW, it's best to get a group of good and more-or-less competent friends and go to instances/do quests together. That (getting friends I mean) shouldn't be a problem even for a casual player.

I'd find the lack of equipment a horrible oversimplification, personally. That's probably why I don't play City of Heroes.

Oh, and I'm what you'd call a casual player. I've never been to a raid instance yet, or even Stratholme for that matter.

[Tormsskull]

Not that I am a Blizzard fanboi or anything, but I think most of the people who rag on WOW are people who have never actually played it much. I can understand if you don't like the repetitiveness of the quests (basically doing the same thing over and over with a different name), and I can understand if you didn't like the graphics or something, but the game as a whole is pretty solid. Get you and a couple of buddies to try the 10 day free trial and I guarantee you'll have a blast.

Yeah, when you are by yourself it can be awfully boring. You might have to actually talk to other people and group up. You might meet some artards that you never want to group with again, but that's the risk you take. Either way, it can be a blast.

[Madalin]

I wish I had monies and could play WoW. I wanted to try a free trial but I have to download the 3 gig client and the download utterly kills any attempt at any sort of other action that uses my internet connection, and I don't think 10 days of WoW are worth that much trouble.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I had trouble staying interested in WoW- until I got too level 19, at which point whenever I got bored I would play the BGs. The Battlegrounds were a Lightsend- I could kill people with no real problems or risk. Of course, I was a priest, so I was a healbot, but it was still fun. I played shadow spec, coz I prefer too kill things than too heal them :)

[Lurking Horror]

Not that I am a Blizzard fanboi or anything, but I think most of the people who rag on WOW are people who have never actually played it much. I can understand if you don't like the repetitiveness of the quests (basically doing the same thing over and over with a different name), and I can understand if you didn't like the graphics or something, but the game as a whole is pretty solid. Get you and a couple of buddies to try the 10 day free trial and I guarantee you'll have a blast.
Well, it's not surprising that the people who don't like it don't play it much. But I've played it a fair bit (I have 3 level 60 characters and have completed all but 2 of the dungeons) and I don't like it - I read this thread to look for alternatives.

There are three phases to WoW. There is getting your character to the maximum level (currently 60 but soon to be 70) which can be done solo and which I found to be great fun. Then there are the 5-man dungeons, which you can do at any time by joining an ad hoc group and which get you better kit; those are reasonably enjoyable. After that there are the 20 and 40 man dungeons for still better kit, which I found incredibly tedious. To do these you have to join a guild and have to play at exactly the same time as everybody else. When in a large dungeon you have to play your part in a carefully choreographed routine to kill each miniboss and main boss; there is no room for choice or initiative.

[Zeb The Troll]

After that there are the 20 and 40 man dungeons for still better kit, which I found incredibly tedious. To do these you have to join a guild and have to play at exactly the same time as everybody else. When in a large dungeon you have to play your part in a carefully choreographed routine to kill each miniboss and main boss; there is no room for choice or initiative.
I've never played WoW (just watched over the shoulders of those who do) but in DAoC there are encounters that are intended for large groups of people. What my friends and I enjoy doing is finding ways to do these encounters with far fewer than what is intended.

A distinct advantage to accomplishing this is that when the encounter is over and the loot is grabbed, there are FAR fewer people vying for it and typically there are only one or two that can even benefit from any given piece of gear.

Of course accomplishing this does require you to execute your role in the group with a modicum of skill, but that's what I like about it. It's far more fun that way than just taking 40 people along and rolling over everything in your path.

Maybe trying to figure out something like this for your raid dungeons is something that would boost your enjoyment of them?

[Lurking Horror]

Maybe trying to figure out something like this for your raid dungeons is something that would boost your enjoyment of them?

It doesn't really work in WoW. By the time your guild were well enough equipped to (say) complete a 40 man dungeon with 20 people, nothing to be found in it would be of any use to them. Plus you'd have to persuade them all to spend 4-6 hours on the exercise.

One issue with MMORPGs that support PVP is that they are so carefully balanced that there is very little you can do to make your character different from anyone else's. It is different in MORPGs with one M like Diablo II - when you got bored with that you could make a silly or extreme character. I still remember my melée sorceress and my gold-finding barbarian fondly.

[katana2665]

I personally found WoW to be a great deal of fun and had a good look to it, but once it gets into grinding it becomes a chore.

I really loved CoH. The character setup alone was worth the price of the game. I eventually left because when I was grouping with others, my missions would not be eliminated once they were complete. I could never understand how a common mission didn't gain a completion for the team across the board..maybe I was doing something wrong, or maybe they've changed it.

I am hoping that Cryptic's "Marvel Universe" will live up to what we comic gamers are missing.

[zeratul]

well WoW is deffinately the most popular , but what other major ones are thier?

[Lilivati]

Once you stop expecting WoW to be anything it isn't, it gets a lot better. Most of those I know who really dislike the game want things out of it that it isn't meant to give, but they somehow feel it should.

I rather like the look of it. Somehow, games that try to look realistic always look worse to me, as if when they try for realism my brain just sees the things that are wrong that much more easily.

[Elidyr]

I can safely say that WoW is the most user friendly of them all. A great user interface and gameplay mechanics. In fact, I would safely say Blizzard is one of the few gaming companies that makes actually playable games, with some games, I seriously wonder if the developers actually played their own game.

WoW is simple to learn and user friendly - untill you get to high end raiding which just sucks all the fun out of it, but you dont need to go down that path.

If you want to try a mmo, you cant go wrong with WoW. The old games are far too hardcore/awkward for beginners.

[Raish]

Hmmm,

EVERQUEST II....

I don't know if anyone here plays, but i sure do. Pretty muc hthe greatest in my opinion, perfect balance of amazing visuals, intricate character builds, involving story, and general awesomeness. I play a Level 70 ranger on unrest, I group a lot with RL friends but a majority of my levels have been solo. Sure there is grinding but its sweet grinding, plus they have exploration experience, which in essence encourages you too explore the world, i mean seriously you can just walk around looking at all the shiny and gain experience.

i have played every other one out there, not joke SWG, AO, WoW, DAoC, tons but i keep coming back to EQ2

raish

[JonathanC]

I've played a lot of MMOs.

Final Fantasy XI -Beautiful, endearing, and one of the best examples of teamwork in a game. Unfortunately, teaming is absolutely necessary once you pass level 15 or so, finding those teams is difficult, and the EXP grind is terrible. This game is kind of like eating a rose made of glass shards. Beautiful and horribly painful.

City of Heroes - Best Character Generator EVER. Sadly, the game itself gets kind of tired, and the character types are too limiting to get a real superhero feel. Plus, the necessity of healing characters seems odd for superheroes...name the last time you saw Captain America call for a rez in a comic book? Not a bad game at all, but it fails to pull you into a storyline early on, and there isn't much to do besides beat up muggers and take their enhancements.

City of Villains - Better, much better. A real storyline that starts at level 1 and never lets go. The newspaper is a great way of getting quick n' dirty missions, and there is a stronger unifying theme that makes the rigid class system seem more bearable. Still, there isn't much to do besides beat up muggers and take their enhancements. You spend more time beating up other villains than you do fighting heroes, which is a pretty serious design flaw, IMO. Also, I never found much of a real community there.

Star Wars Galaxies - I played the old one, when it first came out, which was perhaps the best farming/mining simulator out there. Yep. You sure can prospect for stuff, and then collect it with big machines. I've heard they totally re-tooled it, but at this point, after so many disappointments, I can't really bring myself to care.

World of Warcraft - My game of choice. Plenty of things to do, in terms of PVP, item crafting, raiding, 5-man dungeons, and exploring places. Lots of quests, without resorting to randomly-generated generic quests like COH/COV. A great sense of space, and seamless travel between zones. A pretty wide variety of races to choose from, and a decent choice of classes. Because it's a fantasy-themed game, the limited class system makes sense to me, rather than boxing me in artificially. Certainly the emphasis on raiding in the late-game is problematic, but they've addressed this in the new Burning Crusade expansion, with a bunch of 5-man dungeons, from what I've heard.

Guild Wars - I playtested this at the first Penny Arcade Expo, and a few times since then. I always get bored with it. There is no social interaction whatsoever, no real reason to play with other people, and nothing to do besides play through the missions. Really, I have no idea why this is an MMO game, and not just a single player game. Aside from PVP, there's no reason to have other people involved.

[Haruki-kun]

I haven't played many, but from what I've played, it's between Mu and Ragnarok.

[Aiani]

Raish I am so glad to see that someone else here plays EQ2. I have played a few other MMOs (Everquest, WoW, and Guild Wars) but EQ2 is the only one I have stuck with from the beginning. Not that I think those other games are bad but I find that I enjoy EQ2 more and I feel like there is so much to do in the game. I like the combat, love the graphics and the tradeskilling. Also the latest expansion is really fun, it has kind of an original Everquest feel to it but with better combat and quests.

[Raish]

Aiani,

EoF is really fun and i agree that it has that Everquest 1 feel but still keeps with the trend of EQ2. And tradeskilling is awesome in EQ2 i for got to mention that kudos for the pointer.

What server you play on?

p.s. everyone should at least try eq2 will change your view on gaming, prolly not but man its awesome.

raish

[Aiani]

I play on Kithicor. Which one are you on?

[The Geomancer]

If you are looking for something to do solo or duo with a friend, ! recommend Dungeon Siege 1 or 2. It is kinda hard to set up a coop game, but once you do it is probably one of the most enjoyable gaming experiances I have ever had.

[Raish]

unrest sad thought maybe we could meet up in game or something its always nice to meet new peeps.

raish

[Aiani]

Yeah that is sad. I already have all of my alt slots taken up too (I'm an altoholic). If I didn't I could at least have started one on Unrest.