If Elan had been assigned as Miko's Herald PRE-OOTS.....

[silvadel]

Would it have:

1) Gotten her killed as he placed her into large-scale battles she would not back out of (like the other paladin only without the brain)

2) Gotten her to kill Elan and fall as a paladin.

3) Taught her some minor aspect of humility making her a better paladin.

4) None of the above

[Ancalagon]

If not 1), then 3).

I think even Roy COULD have done 3) if he had not chosen to be a jerk in the crucial moment.

[Bedinsis]

I think she would treat him with indifference after a while, until his behavior was impossible to ignore, at which point she would snap into a furious rage at Elan, which would leave Elan heartbroken.

[Crisis21]

4) Elan would have called her a meanie meanhead at some point and quit as her herald.

[King of Nowhere]

2, definitely. Seeing how Elan would accidentally sabotage her work, she would conclude that he's an agent of evil and is doing it on purpose, therefore slash! slash! slash! slash! slash!

[Crisis21]

2, definitely. Seeing how Elan would accidentally sabotage her work, she would conclude that he's an agent of evil and is doing it on purpose, therefore slash! slash! slash! slash! slash!

Which brings up an interesting question. Is there any way in D&D to fool a Paladin's detect evil ability?

Note I said fool, not block, so Belkar's lead sheet doesn't count nor does anything else that causes a 'no reading' result. I'm looking for something that will give a 'Not Evil' reading when the target is Evil.

[Kish]

Any general-purpose illusion spell should work if the caster knows what "evil" and "not evil" look like to a Detect Evil spell, which, considering any wizard can prepare Detect Evil, the caster easily can.

It's just magic, after all. A paladin who thinks his/her Detect Evil ability is uncontestable is a Fall waiting to happen.

[Crisis21]

Any general-purpose illusion spell should work if the caster knows what "evil" and "not evil" look like to a Detect Evil spell, which, considering any wizard can prepare Detect Evil, the caster easily can.

It's just magic, after all. A paladin who thinks his/her Detect Evil ability is uncontestable is a Fall waiting to happen.

Wow, that describes Miko very well indeed.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

- Undetectable Alignment (2nd level-ish) makes any, "detect X," spell turn up as, "not X." Since there's no, "detect neutrality," spell, there's no way to rule it out without higher-level testing methods.

- Nzzfoo's Magic Aura (1st level) can emulate any alignment you want, but it works on objects, not people. It might work in combination with Xykon's weird crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), though. If Durkon's theory on the matter is correct, a guy could probably convince someone like Miko to murder innocent people for him by casting a first-level spell on their boots or something.

[SoC175]

Note I said fool, not block, so Belkar's lead sheet doesn't count nor does anything else that causes a 'no reading' result. I'm looking for something that will give a 'Not Evil' reading when the target is Evil. Well, technically Belkar's block is a house rule of the Giant. Detect Evil only says "this one is evil", it doesn't say "this one is not evil" (except for not saying that this one is evil"´) or "no reading".

So DE would have not said that Belkar is evil, not that's not evil or that the reading was blocked.

[Lord Loss]

The feat Mask of Gentility makes evil characters register as Neutral (or is it non-evil?).

[Crisis21]

- Undetectable Alignment (2nd level-ish) makes any, "detect X," spell turn up as, "not X." Since there's no, "detect neutrality," spell, there's no way to rule it out without higher-level testing methods.

- Nzzfoo's Magic Aura (1st level) can emulate any alignment you want, but it works on objects, not people. It might work in combination with Xykon's weird crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), though. If Durkon's theory on the matter is correct, a guy could probably convince someone like Miko to murder innocent people for him by casting a first-level spell on their boots or something.

Dude. I can now totally see an evil wizard manipulating a Miko-style paladin into slaughtering whole innocent villages with this combination.

Heck, now I want to see a DM actually do this in a campaign. Either to a player or as a pair of NPC antagonists.


Well, technically Belkar's block is a house rule of the Giant. Detect Evil only says "this one is evil", it doesn't say "this one is not evil" (except for not saying that this one is evil"´) or "no reading".

So DE would have not said that Belkar is evil, not that's not evil or that the reading was blocked.

I gave that example mostly to head off people who would have chimed in with 'Belkar's lead sheet'. Also because if there is a house rule where the paladin can tell when their detect evil ability is being blocked by giving a 'no reading' result, then it creates suspicion. Someone like Miko would take that as a sign that the person is hiding an evil alignment, much like Miko did with Belkar (yes, she was right, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have been wrong either).

Being able to fool trigger-happy (or slash-happy as the case may be) paladins by creating false positives or false negatives when they use their detect evil ability would be a despicable (and fun) thing for a DM to have an antagonist pull off.


The feat Mask of Gentility makes evil characters register as Neutral (or is it non-evil?).
Probably 'non-evil' as I do not believe the detect evil spell or ability registers a 'good' alignment in any way. Unless the Mask of Gentility also affects other detect alignment spells/abilities (Good, Law, Chaos), then I would call it Neutral.

[Draconi Redfir]

Elan is chaotic, which obviously means he is lower on the good/evil axis then lawful, which much mean HE IS EVIL! SLASHSLAHSLAH!!!

[Swordpriest]

He probably would have left because of her "meanie-meanhead" stuff. However, I'd also say there's a slight chance he'd get her to loosen up a bit, too. Miracles do happen on occasion.... :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

The feat Mask of Gentility makes evil characters register as Neutral (or is it non-evil?).

The feat Mask of Gentility- in Exemplars of Evil- can be taken by characters of any alignment- and makes them detect as Neutral.

So, a Good character who infiltrates the organizations of bad guys who regularly Detect Good, could take it too.

[Katana_Geldar]

But it's Detect Evil, not Detect Stupidity.

[hamishspence]

One could say that what finally caused Miko to Fall was her decision that, because Detect Evil could be fooled, if someone seemed to her like "an agent of evil" regardless of what they were detecting as, she'd attack them.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html

"Everyone in this room but you and I are agents of evil, whether or not their alignment registers as such"

[Crisis21]

But it's Detect Evil, not Detect Stupidity.

Miko's thought process: If someone is hindering her in her quest to destroy evil, then they must be doing so on purpose. If they are doing so on purpose, then the only explanation is that they are an agent of evil. If they are an agent of evil, then they must be destroyed.

By Miko's reasoning, Elan would likely be labeled as evil at some point despite being good to his core and never registering as evil to DE. This is of course, assuming that Elan wouldn't leave due to Miko being a 'meanie meanhead'. Remember, Elan picked up on Miko being a mean person very quickly, much faster than Roy did.

[KoboldRevenge]

Miko would have Elan close his eyes and count to 100. then open his eyes and say "Oh no not again!" :smallwink::smallbiggrin: If you don't get it read Orgin of the PC's.

[Geno9999]

either 1 (Elan idiotically gets her into a fight where she dies. or 2 (she kills Elan out anger, probably from an encounter that almost resulted in 1) if she doesn't wisen up to Elan's idiocy, or do as what KoboldRevenge suggests if she does.

[blackjack217]

- Undetectable Alignment (2nd level-ish) makes any, "detect X," spell turn up as, "not X." Since there's no, "detect neutrality," spell, there's no way to rule it out without higher-level testing methods.

Or you could just cast detect good on the fake cleric of whoever. Using detect spells in sequence is always a good idea!

[SensFan]

Or you could just cast detect good on the fake cleric of whoever. Using detect spells in sequence is always a good idea!
That'll tell you that your target is Not Good and Not Evil. There's no further (easy) way to distinguish between Hidden Alignment and Neutral.

[RMS Oceanic]

This is actually an interesting scenario to think about.

First of all, I don't think Miko would have killed Elan. She wanted to kill the Order because they were "clearly" in league with Xykon, and if this was Pre-OOTS then that baggage wouldn't exist. I think she'd be able to recognise Elan doesn't have a sinister motive. She may be bloodthirsty towards people she feels justified in attacking, but she at least throws a detect evil before attacking. Remember she was courteous enough to Samantha and her Father before they attacked her, and only then did she execute them.

Not that there wouldn't be conflict between them, and not just because of idiocy. Remember Elan is Chaotic, while Miko is about the most Lawful person in the comic. She'd naturally get frustrated at suggestions they bend the rules.

I think that in a vacuum, assuming no outside forces get either of them to address their character flaws, Miko would eventually dismiss Elan. She wouldn't try and sneak off like Sir Francis did, she'd straight up say something like "You are a liability to my quest, I'm better off working on my own." She's not the sort to soften the blows.

[Scarlet Knight]

Miko is LG with low patience and no people skills. I see this as a Cinderella/ Evil Step-Mother type arraingment.

:miko: "You have failed me again! You bring disgrace and dishonor upon me and that I cannot tolerate. You are no longer my herald. You shall clean Windstriker's stables from now on."

:elan: " I'll show her! I'll be the bestest stable hand in the world! Now where's that decanter of endless water?"

[silvadel]

Miko is LG with low patience and no people skills. I see this as a Cinderella/ Evil Step-Mother type arraingment.

:miko: "You have failed me again! You bring disgrace and dishonor upon me and that I cannot tolerate. You are no longer my herald. You shall clean Windstriker's stables from now on."

:elan: " I'll show her! I'll be the bestest stable hand in the world! Now where's that decanter of endless water?"

Yes but if Elan were assigned by her liege lord as her herald she wouldnt have the choice of bumping him down, or abandoning him.

[Swordpriest]

Yes but if Elan were assigned by her liege lord as her herald she wouldnt have the choice of bumping him down, or abandoning him.

That might be true, but it also puts paid to any idea of her killing him. If she wouldn't abandon him because of his assignment by said liege lord, she definitely wouldn't kill him, which is about 1,000 steps more extreme than abandoning.

[Crisis21]

That might be true, but it also puts paid to any idea of her killing him. If she wouldn't abandon him because of his assignment by said liege lord, she definitely wouldn't kill him, which is about 1,000 steps more extreme than abandoning.

Up until she is presented with 'irrefutable' evidence that he's working as an agent of evil. Remember, her entire perception about the Order working with Xykon was based on the fact that they claimed Xykon was 'dead' and she encountered a very much 'not dead' Xykon (replace 'dead' with 'destroyed' if you want). She could have come to the conclusion that Xykon faked his destruction in order to escape, but she didn't. So, how many times would it take Elan obliviously leading her into an ambush or other life threatening scenario before she comes to the conclusion that he's actively trying to kill her rather than being just that naive and clueless.

[Bongos]

The songs would probably be better.

[slayerx]

Up until she is presented with 'irrefutable' evidence that he's working as an agent of evil. Remember, her entire perception about the Order working with Xykon was based on the fact that they claimed Xykon was 'dead' and she encountered a very much 'not dead' Xykon (replace 'dead' with 'destroyed' if you want). She could have come to the conclusion that Xykon faked his destruction in order to escape, but she didn't. So, how many times would it take Elan obliviously leading her into an ambush or other life threatening scenario before she comes to the conclusion that he's actively trying to kill her rather than being just that naive and clueless.

Actually, according to the oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), miko became convinced they were evil long before that, due to their association and defense of Belkar... THAT is what allowed her to jump to the conclusion that the order was working for Xykon when she found out he was not destroyed. She was already under the false conclusion that they were evil, and Xykon was really just the final "proof" she needed, as his survival fit her predisposed beliefs

[Crisis21]

Actually, according to the oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), miko became convinced they were evil long before that, due to their association and defense of Belkar... THAT is what allowed her to jump to the conclusion that the order was working for Xykon when she found out he was not destroyed. She was already under the false conclusion that they were evil, and Xykon was really just the final "proof" she needed, as his survival fit her predisposed beliefs

Elan has, on multiple occasions, associated with blatantly evil characters in a positive fashion. His father just happens to be the latest. How long do you think it would take for Miko to misinterpret that?

[slayerx]

Elan has, on multiple occasions, associated with blatantly evil characters in a positive fashion. His father just happens to be the latest. How long do you think it would take for Miko to misinterpret that?

And how many times has that been exactly...
The tropical island orc tribe- unknown alignment.
Julius scoundral- unknown alignment
Nale- elan(and everyone else aside from Haley) did not believe him to be evil until after the literal stab to the back
His father- Elan is currently convinced that he is not evil
V- i mention this one because when V started taking on morally questionable actions, Elan started distancing himself
Thog- evil yes, but thog's stupidity has even us question if he really should be called evil... and he originally only worked with him out of need
Samantha- Yes this would count, even though he seducing evil doers is usually so you can manipulate them for your own needs if not slowly convert them
Belkar- the only clearly evil person Elan associates with, and this is because he did not understand belkar was even at first and then basically just got used to having him around... which actually, is seems a bit of a plothole considering how he turned on V

Overall point is that Elan does not make it a habit of associating with evil.


However, several things you must keep in mind...

if Elan was selected as Miko's herald this would occur before he met belkar. Futharmore, Miko would not just chop his head off and would instead demand an explanation; afterall he's not just an ordinary stranger but her personal herald. These explanations in addition to his other constant actions would help convince Miko of just how stupid and naive he is... Hell even here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) we see that miko does understand that Elan is really thick and annoying to the point that she would be committing and act of evil if she struck out against him (and it would not be evil if stupidity qualified as a sign of evil)...

I would also mention that aside from the order and shojo, Miko does NOT have a known history of killing innocent people based off of insane conclusions... if she did, she would have fallen a LONG time ago

in short, there would be a whole lot of Roy-like face-palming



if anything, she'd more than likely go to shojo and request he be given to another paladin... probably saying she has no need for a herald... long before she could draw anykind of crazy conclusions

[busterswd]

5. She would have put up with him unless some hilarious Elan foible became clearcut evidence he was evil, and even then, he would have had to do something pretty awful.

In spite of her being an uptight bitch, she put up with Belkar and V that long, when both were purposely being confrontational. Hell, nobody in the Order was particularly tolerable to her with the exception of Durkon.

[Welknair]

On the topic of fooling Detect Evil, there's another way. In the ELH you can use Bluff to display a false alignment, with a DC 70 bluff check. Not really practical for most characters though...

[Crisis21]

However, several things you must keep in mind...

if Elan was selected as Miko's herald this would occur before he met belkar. Futharmore, Miko would not just chop his head off and would instead demand an explanation; afterall he's not just an ordinary stranger but her personal herald. These explanations in addition to his other constant actions would help convince Miko of just how stupid and naive he is... Hell even here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) we see that miko does understand that Elan is really thick and annoying to the point that she would be committing and act of evil if she struck out against him (and it would not be evil if stupidity qualified as a sign of evil)...

I would also mention that aside from the order and shojo, Miko does NOT have a known history of killing innocent people based off of insane conclusions... if she did, she would have fallen a LONG time ago

in short, there would be a whole lot of Roy-like face-palming



if anything, she'd more than likely go to shojo and request he be given to another paladin... probably saying she has no need for a herald... long before she could draw anykind of crazy conclusions

Note that Miko also openly acknowledges Elan as being 'the greatest challenge to [her] alignment yet'. She's tempted to do something very not-paladin like just from that conversation, never mind that he wasn't displaying evil tendencies.

Also, how do you think Miko would have taken the 'Rob-U-While-U-Sleep Inn' incident? Elan openly admitted that he told the thieves who ran the inn where his employer kept his valuables.

[Kish]

Miko would be sleeping in a ditch and eating lichen, so it wouldn't come up.

[slayerx]

Note that Miko also openly acknowledges Elan as being 'the greatest challenge to [her] alignment yet'. She's tempted to do something very not-paladin like just from that conversation, never mind that he wasn't displaying evil tendencies.

Which is EXACTLY my point... it would not be a challenge to her alignment if it were RIGHT for her to strike him. And if she regarded Elan as EVIL(as you are so convinced that she would jump to the conclusion to) then she would see it as right to strike him down. As it follows, she recognizes that SHE would be the evil one to strike down someone who is nothing more than stupid and annoying.

[Crisis21]

Which is EXACTLY my point... it would not be a challenge to her alignment if it were RIGHT for her to strike him. And if she regarded Elan as EVIL(as you are so convinced that she would jump to the conclusion to) then she would see it as right to strike him down. As it follows, she recognizes that SHE would be the evil one to strike down someone who is nothing more than stupid and annoying.

Of which I'm well aware. My postulations are upon just how much it would take before Miko's perceptions began warping. She's never been the most stable personality, and is ridiculously judgmental. It was always certain she would snap and fall, the only question was when. Elan would happily do things that Miko would condemn, and would also happily associate with people, and races, that Miko would condemn as evil.

And remember, above all else, Miko has to be right. Elan has the best chance of anyone, since he's such a simple person, of pointing out to Miko her own failings. We know she can't deal with that, as evidenced by her logic after falling.

[King of Nowhere]

There's also the chance that Elan abandon her for being a mean-meanyhead. He has less problems with loyalty, unless it is loyalty to friends. So if Elan perceive Shojo as a friend who asked him to look after Miko, he would stay with her. But if Shojo is just an employer, Elan would run away from Miko before Miko started to consider killing him.
Of course, then Miko may conclude that since he diserted his duty, he must face justice, and hunt him personally...

[silvadel]

There's also the chance that Elan abandon her for being a mean-meanyhead. He has less problems with loyalty, unless it is loyalty to friends. So if Elan perceive Shojo as a friend who asked him to look after Miko, he would stay with her. But if Shojo is just an employer, Elan would run away from Miko before Miko started to consider killing him.
Of course, then Miko may conclude that since he diserted his duty, he must face justice, and hunt him personally...

I could see Elan and Shojo being great friends. I could also see Shojo getting immense pleasure sticking Miko with Elan.

[137beth]

Either 1 or 2. Miko has no fear, so she wouldn't run from a fight, and she isn't smart enough to realize that she could accomplish more by surviving and fighting another day. Or else she would nearly die in a fight Elan got her into, which by miko-logic proves that Elan is evil, even if his alignment does not register as such. Thus she would have either killed him, or gotten killed herself.

[Darthteej]

Honestly, I don't really see Miko lasting that long at all with Elan bugging her. However, she's temperamental enough not to be too patient, and would probably just dismiss him with some harsh words.

Assuming that they are stuck together out of necessity for any length of time, well, see my signature...

[Scarlet Knight]

I can imagine one way that Miko would tolerate Elan for a long period of time:

:miko: "12 Gods, always I have served you loyally. Why do you saddle me with this baffoon? Why do you test my patience so? Why do...wait, that's it! This is a test! You've given me a task that no other paladin could endure to prove that I am special to you! 12 Gods! I will not dissappoint you! I will endure, no matter what may come!"

:elan: "Good morning , my lady. I have your laundry. There was a small problem, but I think you'll look splendid in purple!"

[Swordpriest]

I can imagine one way that Miko would tolerate Elan for a long period of time:

:miko: "12 Gods, always I have served you loyally. Why do you saddle me with this baffoon? Why do you test my patience so? Why do...wait, that's it! This is a test! You've given me a task that no other paladin could endure to prove that I am special to you! 12 Gods! I will not dissappoint you! I will endure, no matter what may come!"

:elan: "Good morning , my lady. I have your laundry. There was a small problem, but I think you'll look splendid in purple!"

I salute you, sir. Although I've never really gotten into the habit of awarding Internets, and am not quite sure when it's appropriate to do so, my opinion is that you merit a salute at least for this. :smallsmile:

[faustin]

Very good, for a moment I imagined Miko condemned in Purgatory for her sins and forced to suffer Elan "assistance" for a thousand years and a day in order to get redemption.

[Crisis21]

I salute you, sir. Although I've never really gotten into the habit of awarding Internets, and am not quite sure when it's appropriate to do so, my opinion is that you merit a salute at least for this. :smallsmile:

Salute? Heck, that deserves at least a cookie.

*Turns to Scarlet Knight* Here, have a cookie.

[silvadel]

I can imagine one way that Miko would tolerate Elan for a long period of time:

:miko: "12 Gods, always I have served you loyally. Why do you saddle me with this baffoon? Why do you test my patience so? Why do...wait, that's it! This is a test! You've given me a task that no other paladin could endure to prove that I am special to you! 12 Gods! I will not dissappoint you! I will endure, no matter what may come!"

:elan: "Good morning , my lady. I have your laundry. There was a small problem, but I think you'll look splendid in purple!"

That is especially cruel in that you can't wear purple unless you are royalty...

Very nice skit here.

[CletusMusashi]

Elan has an extremely high charisma.
Maybe she'd finally get some of that treasure type Roy mentioned.
And then Windstriker would kill Elan.

[Crisis21]

Elan has an extremely high charisma.
Maybe she'd finally get some of that treasure type Roy mentioned.
And then Windstriker would kill Elan.

Are you kidding? Even if Elan did seduce Miko, which is highly doubtful given how mean she would likely be to him, Miko would snap and try to kill him for using his evil ways to trick her into a night of wanton debauchery and sin.

She's shown to be that judgmental and repressed.

[hamishspence]

Miko is rather un-judgemental in the War & XPs bonus strips where two paladins pretend to be having a relationship and "can't keep our hands off each other".

And she implies that if Roy approached her in a less sexist way, she might be open to the possibility of a relationship:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html

So it might not work out as Elan being killed for "luring her to sin". Still, she might apply different standards to herself.

[Kondziu]

using his evil ways to trick her into a night of wanton debauchery and sin.

I won't name a particular real-life religion here, but what makes you think that the same standards apply to OOTSworld when it comes to "sin" and the like?

[Deme]

I won't name a particular real-life religion here, but what makes you think that the same standards apply to OOTSworld when it comes to "sin" and the like?

Mainly because this is a woman who eats lichen and sleeps in muddy, rock-filled ditches to avoid sin, and takes a removed stain from her laundered clothing as a sign of the divine. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume everything not explicitely holy is sinful to her. Just seems like the best call to make.

[Crisis21]

Miko is rather un-judgemental in the War & XPs bonus strips where two paladins pretend to be having a relationship and "can't keep our hands off each other".

And she implies that if Roy approached her in a less sexist way, she might be open to the possibility of a relationship:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html

So it might not work out as Elan being killed for "luring her to sin". Still, she might apply different standards to herself.

That same bonus strip had her condemning an otherwise fine eating establishment because a few employees played a largely harmless gambling game in the back during their breaks.


Mainly because this is a woman who eats lichen and sleeps in muddy, rock-filled ditches to avoid sin, and takes a removed stain from her laundered clothing as a sign of the divine. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume everything not explicitely holy is sinful to her. Just seems like the best call to make.

That's certainly the vibe she gives off. It's at least the vibe I get from her.

[hamishspence]

That same bonus strip had her condemning an otherwise fine eating establishment because a few employees played a largely harmless gambling game in the back during their breaks.

True. I was thinking Miko might be (in some ways) less judgemental about relationships, than about "luxury" and minor illegal activities.

[Nekomata]

Which brings up an interesting question. Is there any way in D&D to fool a Paladin's detect evil ability?

Note I said fool, not block, so Belkar's lead sheet doesn't count nor does anything else that causes a 'no reading' result. I'm looking for something that will give a 'Not Evil' reading when the target is Evil.

Misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm) Level 2 spell for bard and sorcerer. In short, temporarily copy all the "detect X" properties from one object to another.

[Lix Lorn]

I can imagine one way that Miko would tolerate Elan for a long period of time:

:miko: "12 Gods, always I have served you loyally. Why do you saddle me with this baffoon? Why do you test my patience so? Why do...wait, that's it! This is a test! You've given me a task that no other paladin could endure to prove that I am special to you! 12 Gods! I will not dissappoint you! I will endure, no matter what may come!"

:elan: "Good morning , my lady. I have your laundry. There was a small problem, but I think you'll look splendid in purple!"

Would you mind if I sigged that? XD

[Grendus]

Elan would leave. He's chaotic, he wouldn't feel bound to stay as a herald. The main reason he stays with the OOTS is he thinks of Roy like a brother (well, and Haley, but originally it was just for Roy).

That's assuming she didn't kill him very soon, which is unlikely. She's self righteous, arrogant, and trigger-happy, but she's also disciplined. If Shojo had ordered her to travel with Elan and he registered as not evil, it would take several near death experiences to convince her he was evil, and by that point her abrasive personality would have convinced him she was a meany meanhead and he would have left.




Then again, I haven't read the OOTPC's yet (on my to do list). This is just from the web comic.