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zephiros
2010-10-03, 12:33 PM
I was reading the Warlock handbook and came across this:

"Dark Speech (Hordes of the Abyss): This feat breaks the game (Elephant Jack made this discovery). You can use it with Summon Swarm to generate a Sorcerer that can cast 6th level spells immediately, that can summon more powerful swarms to generate a chain of more and more powerful casters, all under your control (if you do it right). Expect to get chips and soda in your hair after you come to the table with this. *****+++ (broke, as in beyond Druid broke)"

However, reading the description of Dark Speech, I can't pretend to have any idea what he means. Anyone can help with that?

Quirp
2010-10-03, 12:54 PM
Using dark speech you can transform swarms into hiveminds. If there are enough creatures in the swarm they can cast as sorcerers of a specific level (look it up in the book of vile darkness). Sorcerers can summon more swarms->you can make bigger hiveminds, which cast as higher level sorcerers->.......

zephiros
2010-10-03, 01:14 PM
Wouldn't the CON damage make you not want to spam that though? Or is there some way to circumvent that that I'm missing.

Quirp
2010-10-03, 01:19 PM
You just summon the first swarm, the hiveminds continue the chain. And since this only requires a one level dip into warlock a second level binder/warlock binding naberius could easily heal the damage on himself.

UMD wand of lesser restoration.

But you are right without a way of healing this isnīt usable.

zephiros
2010-10-03, 01:28 PM
So the hivemind is automatically applied to all the following swarms? I didn't see that in Dark Speech's description :/

I thought it was saying you'd have to do it for each swarm which isn't a great multiplier.

Urpriest
2010-10-03, 01:30 PM
So the hivemind is automatically applied to all the following swarms? I didn't see that in Dark Speech's description :/

I thought it was saying you'd have to do it for each swarm which isn't a great multiplier.

I believe each swarm can take the feat and apply it to the next swarm.

zephiros
2010-10-03, 01:37 PM
Do you know if it says that anywhere? I'm pretty sure my DM would try to call me on it unless I had some rules text that specified.

Quirp
2010-10-03, 01:44 PM
Book of Vile Darkness page 34
The text about hiveminds has all the information you need.

Adumbration
2010-10-03, 01:51 PM
Actually, the latest printing of the feat is in the Elder Evils book.

Radar
2010-10-03, 01:51 PM
I believe each swarm can take the feat and apply it to the next swarm.
Even if not, warlock/binder can use the feat without limitations.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-03, 02:06 PM
The hivemind presumably has an Int score, and therefore gets feats according to its level.

zephiros
2010-10-03, 04:48 PM
Would the saves increase though? Dark Speech has +5 Will Save prereq.

And it's not exactly without limitations, the vestige allows you a healing of 1 Con dmg per round, but you're taking a d4 every time you use it.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-03, 04:55 PM
So at worst you have to wait 3 rounds before using it again?

Anyway, yeah, there's no way the swarms from Summon Swarm are going to qualify for Dark Speech just through making them a hivemind. The hivemind only gets improved Int, Cha, attack, and AC, plus skills, feats, and Sorcerer spells.

zephiros
2010-10-03, 05:26 PM
So you use it once and get 2. :/ Hardly gamebreaking, though useful I suppose.

Alleine
2010-10-04, 01:50 AM
It actually does work pretty well, minus the fact that the swarms are 1) Temporary and 2) Not under your control. If the hivemind rules have been reprinted somewhere, I am unaware of them and will be using the ones from the Book of Vile Darkness.

You're a warlock with the summon swarm invocation and a dip in binder for the ability healing, or just UMDing a wand of restoration. You use Summon Swarm to summon a swarm of rats which consists of 300 tiny animals(as per swarm rules in the MM). You use dark speech on them and due to having at least 50 members they now all have 5 int. For every 20 creatures more they gain another +1 int until you hit 150 creatures and 10 int. Now they gain +1 int and cha for every 50 additional creatures. With only 300 rats, this is pretty lame as the hivemind only ends up with 13 int and 5 cha, we're aiming for at least and 18 charisma.

So rats won't work unless you get more, but we'll just go ahead and summon a swarm of spiders which consists of 1500 diminutive vermin. Using a base of 150 creatures to start off with for a 10 int and no extra charisma we start factoring in the rest of the creatures. 1500 -150 = 1350. Divide that by 50 and we get 37. That's 37 points of intelligence and charisma added to this swarm. We end up with 37 in and 39 cha(spider swarm has a base cha of 2). Our target cha was 18. For each point of cha past 17 the swarm can cast spells as a sorceror of as many points past 17 it is. Meaning at 18 cha we cast as a level 1 sorc, at 19 we're like a level 2 sorc and so on. This spider swarm? Casts spells as a level 22 sorceror. It also gets 1 feat and one skill point per HD for every point of intelligence bonus it has, so with an int of 37 that means it gets 13 feats and 13 skill points per HD.

We aren't done yet though, we can still summon a bat swarm, which is 5000 diminutive animals. If we had a high level caster with 1500, 5000 just makes it INSANE. I calculate it as casting as a level 84 sorceror, with all possible feats it can qualify for and max ranks in every skill with all languages known.

And you can makes these whenever you want. If you can get a normal swarm under your control, you're walking around with more dakka than anyone has any right to have.

Naturally there are some other problems with this, but that's the 'how' of the brokenness.

Cogidubnus
2010-10-04, 02:38 AM
Would this also work with the warlock invocation that creates darkness with every square full of bat swarms? Cos if it would...you have an insane number of high level sorcerors that always attack anyone in their square, except the caster. Drop that on a group of enemies and you've finished them with a wave of enervation or something similar.

Cog
2010-10-04, 08:24 AM
Actually, the latest printing of the feat is in the Elder Evils book.

Yep, though it's similar or identical to the version in Fiendish Codex. Dark Speech lets you make a hive mind in the generic sense, without giving it any meaning in game terms other than allowing you to use a suggestion effect.

Book of Vile Deeds is what's being used to make this broken. However, that book's description of hiveminds is an optional rule, isn't required to happen when you have a cluster of creatures together even if you are using the option, and describes separate creatures coming together rather than the gestalt single-entity that DnD already handles swarms as.

So, like a lot of these 'combos', it doesn't actually work without the DM ruling generously in your favor anyway.

Urpriest
2010-10-04, 12:31 PM
The BoVD rules for Dark Speech say you can create a swarm of up to 100 creatures. How is that normally gotten around for this trick?

Alleine
2010-10-04, 01:51 PM
The BoVD rules for Dark Speech say you can create a swarm of up to 100 creatures. How is that normally gotten around for this trick?

You really can't. I suppose most people forget or don't know about that because it isn't listed under the dark speech feat or the hivemind rules. The only real way to become crazy insane powerful with hiveminds is by taking all 10 levels of the Vermin Lord PrC, which I believe you can't finish until 17th level. The Vermin Lord is also way more powerful than regular hiveminds since it includes the Vermin Lord itself.

Hrm, I wonder if you can add to a hivemind?

DragoonWraith
2010-10-04, 03:11 PM
Well, no one was using Dark Speech to create the Swarm, just to turn an already existing Swarm into a Hivemind. I don't have BoVD handy - the way Urpriest worded that, it sounds like Dark Speech also has the ability to create Swarms (of up to 100 creatures), in addition to its Hivemind properties. Does Dark Speech limits its Hiveminding to Swarms of no more than 100 creatures?

Quirp
2010-10-04, 03:32 PM
I reread the text and have to say that Urpriest is right. Dark Speech can only be used to create hiveminds of 100 or less creatures. That means that the whole trick does not work.