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Piedmon_Sama
2010-10-03, 12:51 PM
So, I have this prospective character set to join my friend's D&D campaign at a date soon-to-be-decided. In fact, I'm so enamored of the concept that I drew him first. (http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9660/pictureonez.jpg) The idea is a warrior of vaguely African flavor who fights with two ridiculously big weapons--kind of an answer on my part to a friend's insistence on using a greatsword sized for an ogre in our other campaign. The character needs to be about eight or ninth level when introduced, and the build needs to rely on absolutely no magic items, weapons, levels or feats (reason being, this is a very low-magic game--there aren't even wizards or more than three clerics in the setting anymore).

The build I've worked out so far is a whirling frenzy barbarian 2/fighter 4/rogue 3. The stats I've got to work with are STR 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10 Cha 10.

Feats I've chosen so far are:
Pride of Arms [Flaw], _________ [Flaw]

Level 1 (Barb1) - Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Waraxe, Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Level 3 - Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword,
Level 5 (Ftr1) - Weapon Focus: Waraxe
Level 6 (Ftr2) - Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword, Power Attack
Level 8 (Ftr4) - Weapon Spc: Waraxe
Level 9 - Imp. Crit - Longsword

My original plan was to have this guy feint in combat and get three +2d6 backstabs thanks to whirling frenzy, doing 1d10+6 (spec. axe) and 1d10+4 with a 17-20 crit threat from the b. sword. That kind of fell through when I learned you can't feint in a whirling frenzy, which sucks and makes me suppose the Rogue levels aren't worth the drop in BaB anymore. I guess the alternate route is to take three more Fighter levels and maybe snag Power Critical and/or Leap Attack? Anyone got suggestions on this?

EDIT: And there's not really any need to worry about XP penalties for multiclassing, we all just kind of ignore that rule in my friends' and my games.

dgnslyr
2010-10-03, 01:04 PM
Having so many Weapon Proficiencies and Weapon Focuses is not so good. A few levels of Barb can help with many builds, consider using Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, which gives Pounce instead of Fast Movement.

Also, since you're using two weapons, you should find a way to get precision damage or sneak attack. Maybe some Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter? You'd lose a bit of BAB, though, but it would work well with pounce. If you're going to be charging, 9 out of 10 experts agree Shock Trooper makes charges 93.25% tastier. Also, the damage die of the weapon itself sadly does not amount to much, so consider what you're gaining from Oversized TWF.

Piedmon_Sama
2010-10-03, 01:12 PM
Well I guess I could go Waraxe/Scimitar (and immediately I'm thinking "heavy scimitar from Sandstorm"). Freeing up one feat (EWP), I could move the rest down, take Imp. Critical Scimitar and Power Critical.

Actually I've never even given shock trooper a read, let me look at that.

EDIT: Okay to be honest.... it's a nice feat, but I don't see how it's THAT good. Yeah it gives you +3< AC on a charge but I'm more concerned about damage. For one thing, with any 3/4-BaB levels this guy's melee would be so low I'd be afraid to power attack for five. It seems to me like Combat Brute would be better---Momentum Swing has let a fighter really wreck **** in my campaign.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 01:14 PM
Let's see… (Your picture didn't load fully for me.)

Goliath for a race, since Half-Giant might be too magical. Try to get LA buyout.

Ranger 1: EWP: Heavy Scimitar, Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush
Ranger 2: TWF (free)
Rogue 1: Craven
Rogue 2:
Rogue 3: (Penetrating Strike ACF)
Barbarian 1: Oversized TWF, (Pounce, Rage/Frenzy)
Barbarian 2: (Uncanny Dodge or Imp. Trip)
Fighter 1: Shock Trooper
Fighter 2: Telling Blow, Imp. Critical

So yeah, two Large Heavy Scimitars, 2d6 slashing, 15-20/x2. 2d6+Character level SA, triggers on crits, damage from Craven gets doubled with crits.

That'll be ECL 10, or 9 if you can buyout the LA.

[Edit]: Was missing a feat. Changed some stuff around, added Shock Trooper. Might have bit too much punch now.
[2.Edit]: Whoopsies, one feat too many. Had to give up Extra Rage for now.

lsfreak
2010-10-03, 01:20 PM
You're sinking 6 feats into getting a measly +1atk/+2dmg. That's... not at all good. Stick with one type of weapon; an option would be to head for Weapon Mastery (PHB2) and possibly Slashing Fury for an extra attack, but I'd prefer to do more useful things with my feats.

You've got two main options: charging, or not. Charging means grabbing Pounce from Lion Totem Barbarian (CC), and probably sinking a lot of levels into scout for the bonus damage, plus grabbing Improved Skirmish (CS). Another option would be taking Great Scimitars (Sandstorm) as your oversized weapon of choice; this also works well with level of Dervish to make them count as Light without Oversized TWF. That's a hefty feat investment, though, I'd rather stick with barb/scout.

The non-charging option involves a level or two in Warblade and grabbing Stormguard Warrior, both from Tome of Battle. Spend a round making damageless touch attacks, then the next round, every hit you make does an extra 5 damage per touch you made. Another option with this would be to grab Robilar's Gambit; opponents get a +4atk/dmg on you, but provoke an AoO from you, which you sacrifice via Stormguard Warrior in order to gain a stacking +4atk/dmg for every AoO you didn't take. Whirling Frenzy/Lion Totem works well both of these. If you're wanting a high crit, it works well with this since it's all flat damage and thus multiplied on a crit; great scimitars would work well here too.

EDIT: Forgot about low-magic.

Piedmon_Sama
2010-10-03, 01:33 PM
But really, does anyone want to explain to me why Shock Trooper is good? I see it helps you knock guys around the field like bowling pins, which is nice, and protect yourself better on a charge but.... shouldn't I be focusing on dealing damage?

Greenish
2010-10-03, 01:35 PM
But really, does anyone want to explain to me why Shock Trooper is good?Did you read what it does?

Specifically, Power Attack for your full BAB, and instead of losing to-hit, you lose AC.

Isn't that focused on dealing damage?

Piedmon_Sama
2010-10-03, 01:44 PM
You're talking about this, right?

Heedless Charge: To use this maneuver, you must charge and make the attack at the end of the charge using your Power Attack feat. The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. In addition to normal charge modifiers (which give you a -2 penalty to AC and a +2 bonus on the attack roll), you can assign any portion of the attack roll penalty from Power Attack to your Armor Class instead, up to a maximum equal to your base attack bonus.
~

It sounds to me like you're adding points off your Power Attack to your Armor Class, although that makes absolutely no sense with the name Heedless Charge. o_O

tyckspoon
2010-10-03, 01:46 PM
EDIT: Okay to be honest.... it's a nice feat, but I don't see how it's THAT good. Yeah it gives you +3< AC on a charge but I'm more concerned about damage. For one thing, with any 3/4-BaB levels this guy's melee would be so low I'd be afraid to power attack for five. It seems to me like Combat Brute would be better---Momentum Swing has let a fighter really wreck **** in my campaign.

You seem to be misinterpreting the feat. Heedless Charge does not increase your AC. It lets you sack your AC instead of your attack bonus when you make a charging Power Attack, so you can PA for your full possible value and still hit as if you didn't use any PA at all. The downside is of course that anybody who wants to hit you back pretty much will, so it's usually recommended that you pick up some non-AC defenses (miss chances, relevantly high Damage Reduction) to take the edge off.. sounds like you're unlikely to get those in the setting, tho, so you may have to rely on just soaking it with HP.

Combat Brute's Momentum Swing does make a really good followup, tho.. but if you're worried about hitting with the -5, you're not gonna get a lot of use from it.

Piedmon_Sama
2010-10-03, 01:49 PM
[QUOTE=tyckspoon;9473781]It lets you sack your AC instead of your attack bonus when you make a charging Power Attack, so you can PA for your full possible value and still hit as if you didn't use any PA at all.[QUOTE]

*Spitttake*


Welp.

Prime32
2010-10-03, 02:03 PM
Since opponents won't have any trouble hitting you, you dump AC in favour of things like damage reduction, and take the feat which gives you an AoO against anyone who hits you.

Piedmon_Sama
2010-10-03, 02:05 PM
Okay, so here's the guy again---
UMZAMO, v. 2.0 - Human Barb 1/Ftr 8
Pride of Arms [Flaw], _________ [Flaw]

Level 1 - EWP: Heavy Scimitar, EWP: Waraxe, Weapon Focus: Waraxe, Power Attack
Level 2 [Ftr 1] - Imp. Bull Rush
Level 3 - Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Level 5 - Weapon Spc. : Waraxe
Level 6 - Shock Trooper
Level 7 - Leap Attack
Level 9 - Imp. Crit: H. Scimitar, Power Critical

Greenish
2010-10-03, 02:14 PM
I'd grab Extra Rage instead of Weapon Specialization (which only applies to one of your weapons).

I would personally also avoid EWPs altogether, or at most only grab one. Large Battleaxe is martial and has 2d6 damage*. Is there a reason for Axe & Sword combo?

Also, if you insist on Weapon Focus and Specialization, at least take them for the scimitar for which you have the crit feats.

*[Edit]: Right, human.

tyckspoon
2010-10-03, 02:19 PM
Would you be allowed to use the Pounce ACF from Complete Champion? If not, you'll want to fit the Two Weapon Pounce feat in there somewhere.. or, perhaps, Quickdraw, because the Leap Attack+Shock Trooper combo generally works better when two-handing a single weapon. So you'd open by doing a Leap Attack with.. probably the scimitar, because it's pretty hilarious when you crit a full Leaping Power Attack, and then next round quickdraw the axe as well and julienne any poor sap who was dumb enough to be standing next to the first guy.

Piedmon_Sama
2010-10-03, 02:26 PM
There's no reason to go sword/axe except that that's what I drew and I want him to wield two retardedly-sized weapons because my friend plays his fighter with a stupid large greatsword so I'm.... matching that.

Extra Rage is a good idea. I guess I might just drop Focus/Specialization altogether; this guy is gonna go for high Power Attacks, Charges and as many attacks as I can give him, a high attack bonus is just too much to ask for probably.

^^^OMG tyckspoon that is a great idea. Now I know what I'll be replacing them with.

Behold, UMZAMO, v. 3.0 :

Pride of Arms [Flaw], _______ [Flaw]
lvl 1 - EWP: H. Scimitar, EWP: Waraxe, Power Attack, Cleave
lvl 2 [Ftr 1] - Imp. Bullrush
lvl 3 - TWF, Oversized TWF
lvl 5 - Quickdraw
lvl 6 - Shocktrooper
lvl 7 - Leap Attack
lvl 9 - Imp. Crit [H. Scimitar], Power Critical

So this dude's BaB is gonna be 9/4, combined with MW weapons and STR that's +13/+8; in whirling frenzy he charges for +13/+8/+13, power attack for his AC.

Okay, he's still kind of a weak power charger just because he's using smaller weapons but the TWF thing was my remit so I can deal with that. I'll miss the rogue Sneak Attack dice but it seems like getting people flat-footed and rage/whirling frenzy just don't go together.

Prime32
2010-10-03, 02:43 PM
See sun sword here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350).

Sun Sword (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, 3000 gp) The no-frills version of this weapon is a +1 bastard sword that can be wielded as a short sword, making it an excellent and affordable off-hand weapon.
Dual wield those and drop Oversized TWF. Quick Draw is unecessary - if you really want it just put least weapon crystals of return on your weapons for a few hundred gp each.

Gloves of the balanced hand (MIC, can't remember price) will upgrade your TWF feats by one step (to Improved TWF in your case).

Piedmon_Sama
2010-10-03, 02:47 PM
Thanks for the find, but this build has to work without any reliance on magical equipment or spells. It's a low-magic world and I can't count on my DM dropping that into a treasure pile somewhere.

Prime32
2010-10-03, 02:48 PM
Thanks for the find, but this build has to work without any reliance on magical equipment or spells. It's a low-magic world and I can't count on my DM dropping that into a treasure pile somewhere.What system is your DM using to ensure that you are a match for encounters designed for magically equipped PCs?

Greenish
2010-10-03, 02:49 PM
Gloves of the balanced hand (MIC, can't remember price)8 000 gp. A bargain if there ever was one, but alas, the OP is trying to make a TWFer with huge weapons in a low, low magic campaign.

Prime32
2010-10-03, 02:51 PM
If you want an "African flavour", what about a guy who manifests his weapons from the spirits of feral beasts? In other words, a totemist. They're quite good at the whole pouncing thing, and can pick up things like scent or flight. Plus you can draw your weapons as a free action and they can't be disarmed.

There's also the totem rager PrC for multiclass totemist/barbarians.

Piedmon_Sama
2010-10-03, 02:53 PM
Full disclosure, I want this guy to be a "pure" warrior as kind of a backslap to this Fighter (I've already mentioned her several times) who's been wreaking havoc in my own campaign, but I don't want him to be a carbon copy so the TWF-thing is important for giving him his own style (she has a large greatsword).

Prime32
2010-10-03, 02:54 PM
Full disclosure, I want this guy to be a "pure" warrior as kind of a backslap to this Fighter (I've already mentioned her several times) who's been wreaking havoc in my own campaign, but I don't want him to be a carbon copy so the TWF-thing is important for giving him his own style (she has a large greatsword).Which is why I suggested the totemist, who usually fight with two or more weapons.

Piedmon_Sama
2010-10-03, 02:55 PM
A totemist is some kind of magic though. This guy, I'd like him to be pure physical power.

OptimumDinosaur
2010-10-05, 12:09 PM
It sounds like the Feral template (Savage Species) would help out here. Gets you some nice ability modifiers (+4 str) if you don't mind dumping intelligence and nifty abilities like pounce, improved grab, rend, claw attacks, rake, +10 movement speed, and fast movement that scales with your hit dice, which would really help if you decide to go with a shock trooper build as you could soak damage a lot better.

All for +1 LA.

Also I've done an oversized TWF build before and it's not great unless you get RIDICULOUSLY large weapons, like gargantuan size. Then each size step adds two dice instead of one. A large race with monkey grip (it's useful I promise!), and heavy (http://www.realmshelps.org/stores/weapons.shtml) weapons. I think there was a balanced magical property somewhere that increased size by 1 step and a dip into druid, can get you Shillegah, which increases mace size by 2 steps. I know it's magical, but it's reallly nice if you could somehow acquire it.

Person_Man
2010-10-05, 01:39 PM
Your build and almost all of your feat choices are lousy.

Specifically, feats which add minor static bonuses To-Hit and/or damage (Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, etc) are much weaker then feats which provide scaled bonuses to damage and/or special effects that can't otherwise be duplicated (Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Boomerang Daze, Staggering Strike, etc).

Also, two weapon fighting is mechanically very inefficient at delivering damage when compared to two handed fighting, archery, or magic. The reason to be a two weapon fighter is if you want a large number of attacks per round to impose status effects (Daze, Staggered, Prone, Grappled, Maneuvers, etc). And even then you can often accomplish better results with Multiweapon Fighting or natural weapons.

What books are available, and what are your build goals, other then not using magic?

Also, have you looked at the Swordsage, Warblade, and/or Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526)?

Prime32
2010-10-05, 02:04 PM
Also I've done an oversized TWF build before and it's not great unless you get RIDICULOUSLY large weapons, like gargantuan size. Then each size step adds two dice instead of one. A large race with monkey grip (it's useful I promise!), and heavy (http://www.realmshelps.org/stores/weapons.shtml) weapons. I think there was a balanced magical property somewhere that increased size by 1 step and a dip into druid, can get you Shillegah, which increases mace size by 2 steps. I know it's magical, but it's reallly nice if you could somehow acquire it.Titan bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#titan) to dual-wield Gargatuan warhammers, but that's not until lv12.

And yes, Weapon Focus is terrible. Knowledge Devotion, for instance, gets you +1 attack and damage with all weapons, and the bonus scales with your ranks in Knowledge skills (up to +5 attack/damage).


A totemist is some kind of magic though. This guy, I'd like him to be pure physical power.A totemist is not a spellcaster. He doesn't mutter incantations under his breath or fling bolts of arcane energy. He mauls people in the face.