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dromer
2010-10-03, 01:17 PM
I was looking into the Lady of Pain as a potential employer for the PCs. From what I've found in the 3.5e books she:

Can bar divine beings from her realm
Can kill people with a thought
Doesn't allow followers
Has a race of underling that tends to Sigil
Her power exceeds that of the gods
Has bladelike hair.

What I was envisioning, was that the Lady would hire the PCs to do things outside Sigil for her, in order to protect Sigil. Thoughts, and ideas?

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 01:19 PM
Well she wasn't known to talk to mortals in 2e, and whether it was her power or some power of Sigil that allowed her to do those things was unknown. Mostly they left her a big mystery so you could do whatever you wanted with her, so you could do it. Personally I'd be more inclined to have her hire the PCs through an intermediate, or an assumed guise and make them have to figure out that it is the Lady of Pain calling the shots.

Yora
2010-10-03, 01:24 PM
Let's have a dabus doing the hiring. I think it's heavily implied that they never do anything that is not part of advancing the Ladys agenda, so they'll know that it's the lady who wants them to do it.

I don't know if the Lady has ever been reported to speak at all.

JellyPooga
2010-10-03, 01:27 PM
The biggest downside for your idea is that it's highly unlikely that the LoP would employ someone to do something outside of Sigil. Sigil is her turf and she couldn't care less about what goes on outside of it. Anyone or anything that comes to Sigil deserves everything it gets if it/they try to rain on her parade.

Having said that, if you really want to go down this road (which I would not, personally recommend...the LoP is supposed to be enigmatic; having the PC's work for her kind of detracts from that aspect, making her more familiar), then I suggest you have the PC's actually 'employed' by a Dabus, not the LoP herself (see previous bracketed text for why!). This presents a problem in itself of the party having to learn their rebus-language or finding a translator, which could be a mini-quest in itself.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 01:27 PM
She wasn't. I'd actually make it start out as someone hired by a dabus and then have them have to trace it back later on so you can pull it off as a big reveal.

arguskos
2010-10-03, 01:30 PM
Another issue is that the Lady doesn't speak. Like, at all. She has never been known to talk, or even communicate to mortals. Her will is worked through the Dabus.

As for employment, it's far more likely that the Lady would task a Dabus to have the PCs do something INSIDE of Sigil. Her interests don't extent beyond the city after all. This has been expounded upon above.

Of course, you can do as you wish with her. That's the joy of the setting. But, if you wish to remain within canon of Her Serenity, she doesn't really do stuff like this. Just a warning.

EDIT: Concerning the rebuses, that's not actually hard. Rebuses can be read by non-Dabus, it's just a visual puzzle. There is no "rebus language". I've seen mechanics for reading rebuses that ranged from "make an Int check" to the DM handing the PCs a piece of paper with a rebus on it and saying "figure it out, I'll be over there having some pizza".

dromer
2010-10-03, 01:33 PM
Perhaps a mysterious figure that contacts them in dreams, and then pays them through strange intermediaries? That would lend to a deep incentive for players to help her, and she could give them armor with magical symbols and things such as that that some NPC recognize and let the PCs in to restricted areas without so much as a question? That sounds pretty cool.

Also I was considering an extraplanar (like, where aberrations come from extraplanar, or extrauniverse-ular) threat that would directly shift the power balance in the planes and therefor Sigil against her favor. It could also be that she has no power outside of Sigil.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-03, 01:45 PM
EDIT: Concerning the rebuses, that's not actually hard. Rebuses can be read by non-Dabus, it's just a visual puzzle. There is no "rebus language". I've seen mechanics for reading rebuses that ranged from "make an Int check" to the DM handing the PCs a piece of paper with a rebus on it and saying "figure it out, I'll be over there having some pizza".

Or ask Dak'kon to translate :smallcool:

arguskos
2010-10-03, 01:47 PM
Perhaps a mysterious figure that contacts them in dreams, and then pays them through strange intermediaries? That would lend to a deep incentive for players to help her, and she could give them armor with magical symbols and things such as that that some NPC recognize and let the PCs in to restricted areas without so much as a question? That sounds pretty cool.
It does... but WHY Her Serenity? There is no precedent for such action in the entirety of Planescape, and no indication it would ever happen. This directly contradicts the canon knowledge of her. Of course, it's your world, and I wish you all the best, but there is no way to justify this action given what exists about the Lady.

I'd suggest you run this in a pre-Faction War Sigil and have a factol be the one pulling the strings. Makes a lot more sense, can still be totally boss, even can involve the Lady as perhaps the factol's prime enemy or an obstacle or something.


Also I was considering an extraplanar (like, where aberrations come from extraplanar, or extrauniverse-ular) threat that would directly shift the power balance in the planes and therefor Sigil against her favor. It could also be that she has no power outside of Sigil.
Canonically, she doesn't care. Greater issues have happened and she hasn't moved against them. See: the ancient war between the Obriyths and the Wind Dukes of Aaqa, which had the potential to spill into the Prime Material and the entire Great Wheel. Sigil and the Lady didn't so much as twitch one way or the other, as evidenced by not appearing in those tales. Gods have lived and died and Sigil has done nothing. The Lady has no "favor". She only cares for the city, and even then, some seriously bad events have gone down in Sigil and she didn't do anything.

For example, the Faction Wars. Until Duke Rowan decided to usurp The Sword directly, she didn't act. See the events of Die, Vecna, Die!, where until Vecna took a step against her, she didn't DO anything. She, historically, has only acted when Sigil is in direct peril or when she is acted upon by the inhabitants of the city.

Understand, I'm just trying to show what has come before so you understand the situation as it stands, before you go fiddling with it. :smallwink:

@Kurald: Damn right. :smallcool:

Starbuck_II
2010-10-03, 01:57 PM
Let's have a dabus doing the hiring. I think it's heavily implied that they never do anything that is not part of advancing the Ladys agenda, so they'll know that it's the lady who wants them to do it.

I don't know if the Lady has ever been reported to speak at all.

Planescape the Torment says that Dabus's have own agenda. Heck, there is a Ex-employer of the Lady in it.

Sydonai
2010-10-03, 02:18 PM
One book all but states that she is the daughter of poseidon, and destroyed her own memories with...... Whats the name of that river in Hell that destroys memories? I know its called "Lethe" in mythology, but when has D&D stuck to the mythology?



(the book is "Pages of Pain" by Troy Denning)

arguskos
2010-10-03, 02:19 PM
One book all but states that she is the daughter of poseidon, and destroyed her own memories with...... Whats the name of that river in Hell that destroys memories? I know its called "Lethe" in mythology, but when has D&D stuck to the mythology?
As a mild Planescape scholar, I've never EVER heard that theory. Do you have a source on that claim? I'd be very interested to read that.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 02:27 PM
What is known about the Lady of Pain:

She doesn't talk
The dabus seem to obey her
She's (nigh) omnipotent in Sigil
She doesn't take an obvious active role in anything.


Things believed about the Lady of Pain

She is a power/thing older than the powers/or maybe a rogue Baatezu
She is powerless outside of Sigil.
She takes no concern about events outside of Sigil.


The third on the 2nd list is an extension of the 4th on the first. It is left up to question whether she does or does not manipulate others into serving her purposes outside of Sigil (if she has purposes outside of Sigil). So you could do it, there's nothing canonically for or against it, as long as she doesn't do it in any obvious manner.

Also yes it is the Pool of Lethe, although in D&D it is the River Styx.

arguskos
2010-10-03, 02:33 PM
Ok. Did some digging about that book. It appears that it is not a hard claim, but more speculation, since the implication apparently is that the entire thought may be a ruse by the god to sway her to his thinking, thus negating the entire thing. It doesn't say anything definitively. It's much akin to how Die, Vecna, Die claims she's an entity much like the Serpent, or how PS:T claims Sigil is her prison and that she predates reality or something like that. None of the above is right, and that's the joy.

Interesting Poseidon theory though. Thanks for the heads up.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-03, 02:46 PM
how PS:T claims Sigil is her prison
Not exactly.

PS:T itself doesn't say anything about this. A character within PS:T, Ravel Puzzlewell, makes this claim. Whether Ravel is a reliable source or completely insane (or possibly both) is left as an exercise to the reader.

arguskos
2010-10-03, 02:51 PM
Not exactly.

PS:T itself doesn't say anything about this. A character within PS:T, Ravel Puzzlewell, makes this claim. Whether Ravel is a reliable source or completely insane (or possibly both) is left as an exercise to the reader.
Well, yes, but PS:T is the sum of it's parts, and one of the key parts, Ravel, makes that claim. For the laymen, it's close enough. For us discerning gents, we could delve deeper into the puzzle (in true Ravel style) and try and solve a riddle that no one wanted to be solved (this particular puzzle, as Ravel even says once). :smallwink:

Powers above, I love Planescape so much. :smallbiggrin:

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 02:54 PM
Powers above, I love Planescape so much. :smallbiggrin:

It quite possibly had the best fluff in all of D&D, and I didn't explore half of it (I also loved Spelljammer for sheer awesome I'm on a space-boat fighting illithids in space; I was 10).

arguskos
2010-10-03, 02:57 PM
It quite possibly had the best fluff in all of D&D, and I didn't explore half of it (I also loved Spelljammer for sheer awesome I'm on a space-boat fighting illithids in space; I was 10).
Spelljammer was so amazingly hilarious. Giant Space Hamsters powering Gnomish Waterwheel Ships that paddle through "space"? Firearm-wielding anthropomorphic hippos? A third Gith race that speaks a language called Pirates of Gith? EVERYTHING IS AWESOME FOREVER.

Zaydos
2010-10-03, 03:01 PM
Spelljammer was so amazingly hilarious. Giant Space Hamsters powering Gnomish Waterwheel Ships that paddle through "space"? Firearm-wielding anthropomorphic hippos? A third Gith race that speaks a language called Pirates of Gith? EVERYTHING IS AWESOME FOREVER.

I still want a Smalljammer. And I have proposed a campaign that revolved around a crazed lich in an undead-Spelljammer blowing up planets to stop the return of a dark overdeity that would destroy the multiverse. So I still love Spelljammer, even if now I recognize some of it as silly. Then again it's Crazy Awesome because some of it is silly.

Cieyrin
2010-10-03, 04:08 PM
I still want a Smalljammer. And I have proposed a campaign that revolved around a crazed lich in an undead-Spelljammer blowing up planets to stop the return of a dark overdeity that would destroy the multiverse. So I still love Spelljammer, even if now I recognize some of it as silly. Then again it's Crazy Awesome because some of it is silly.

Hell, you should read the early parts of the Cloakmaster Cycle, as the main Spelljamming ship is captained by an Illithid and has encounters with the Scro, the Neogi, shows the inner workings of Mount Nevermind's spelljamming division and more!

I say early parts, as later authors in the cycle I'm fairly sure didn't bother reading the earlier books, so they're kinda crap after the 3rd or 4th book. Which really is a shame, as it was a fun and interesting romp early on, especially when the resident Giff signed on with the Tinker Gnomes. :smallbiggrin:

EvilJames
2010-10-05, 11:23 AM
I was looking into the Lady of Pain as a potential employer for the PCs. From what I've found in the 3.5e books she:

Can bar divine beings from her realm
Can kill people with a thought
Doesn't allow followers
Has a race of underling that tends to Sigil
Her power exceeds that of the gods
Has bladelike hair.

What I was envisioning, was that the Lady would hire the PCs to do things outside Sigil for her, in order to protect Sigil. Thoughts, and ideas?

Well she doesn't actually have more power than the gods, she's not an overdiety, she can just bar them from a specific place and can only kill them in a very specific set of circumstances. Circumstances that are not likely to be repeated ever. (But just in case they do is why she hasn't killed Fell yet) She also doesn't kill with a thought that I'm aware of. She kills with her presence and shadow, It's kind of like an invisible blade storm aura that she only occasionally bothers to reign in.

She is a god-like being that isn't actually a god, (and has no desire to be one). Everything else has been covered.

However I might suggest that if you do have the Lady hire the party that you never explicitly say that it's her, just strongly imply that it is while leaving a few other possibilities, use lots of intermediaries that don't know who they are working for either. Planescape campaigns are should be full of little uncertainties like that.

Eldan
2010-10-05, 11:48 AM
Planescape the Torment says that Dabus's have own agenda. Heck, there is a Ex-employer of the Lady in it.

Fell? He's entirely canonical. He appears in Faces of Sigil and is a major player in the plot to bring Aoskar back.

Mark Hall
2010-10-05, 11:49 AM
I love the idea of a dabus doing the hiring, especially if the rebuses are especially obscure. You're doing what you THINK you're supposed to be doing, but you can't be entirely clear... you might not have been hired, for that matter, but the hints from the Viper Dabus always seems to lead you to the Cobra base adventure.

Cieyrin
2010-10-06, 04:12 PM
I love the idea of a dabus doing the hiring, especially if the rebuses are especially obscure. You're doing what you THINK you're supposed to be doing, but you can't be entirely clear... you might not have been hired, for that matter, but the hints from the Viper Dabus always seems to lead you to the Cobra base adventure.

Take it one step further and do it Shadowrun style, with your connection being your Mr. Johnson.

...Y'know, Sigil would be an awesome place for a higher fantasy Shadowrun setting... *contemplates the possibilities*