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WarKitty
2010-10-03, 04:32 PM
I have a rather interesting dilemma. We have a very RP-heavy group. In particular there's two players that are extremely good at roleplaying. Both are playing very loud, outspoken characters that always seem to have something to do in the situation. It's great, and no one wants to say "don't roleplay so much" or anything. The issue is that, well, a couple of players have expressed feelings of being upstaged. Particularly since we just brought in two new characters (both replacements for ones that died or left) that are better at their roles than the party member that is currently filling them.

I don't think any of us want to say "don't roleplay so much, or don't roleplay a determined character." At the same time...well it feels like we're sort of side characters now. I know I and one other girl feel upstaged; neither of us have particularly outspoken characters and neither of us are playing the type to just charge right in.

Snake-Aes
2010-10-03, 04:35 PM
Well, you don't really have many options. Go to the guys and say "Chill a little", then say "We should give more screen time for the other guys", and then make it happen. Trying to undermine the problem has big chances of leading into the divas thinking they are being cheated out instead of just taking one for the team.

Hackulator
2010-10-03, 04:38 PM
Are your players mature and already friends with one another? If so, tell the people who feel upstaged to yell at the other people in character if they are pushing them out of the way in situations where the new players would be the optimal. Its best for things like that to be settled between players in my opinion. However, if they don't really know each other and you're worried about IC conflict causing OOC conflict, then take the loud players aside and talk to them. If you're a good roleplayer, but you're roleplaying a character who makes the game less fun for other people, you're no less abusive than a person who is good with systems and makes some character that ruins every combat by 1 shotting it.

WarKitty
2010-10-03, 04:40 PM
I'm definitely thinking we'd resolve this OOC and not IC. I'm just not sure how to approach it without saying "Don't roleplay a loud character" because I know those are the types of characters they find fun. We argue IC all the time, but neither of them are the type IC that would listen to anyone.

Tukka
2010-10-03, 04:40 PM
Maybe ask if they can roleplay in such a way as to draw your characters more deeply into the story and situations, and perhaps ask the GM to consider doing the same with his NPCs and scenarios.

Roleplaying works best when everyone plays off each other a bit anyway, right?

arguskos
2010-10-03, 04:41 PM
Yeah, this just needs to be discussed. Say to the dudes "hey guys, we're super glad you're having a great time, but you're also accidentally upstaging some of the other players. Would you mind maybe toning it down a little, so we can all have fun?" If they're decent people, they'll probably go "Hey, yeah, sorry about that. Sure thing!"

Asking someone to not be in the center of the spotlight all the time isn't a crime, and it's entirely likely they don't realize OOC that you feel slighted.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-03, 05:05 PM
Get some story or sidequest that directly involves those player's characters and not the outspoken ones.

WarKitty
2010-10-03, 05:07 PM
Get some story or sidequest that directly involves those player's characters and not the outspoken ones.

Believe it or not we are already on one of those. Not helping.

Katana_Geldar
2010-10-03, 05:12 PM
Then tell the loud players that this is NOT their turn in the spotlight and they should not monopolise it.

WarKitty
2010-10-03, 05:16 PM
Yeah...I just hate saying it. The one guy's main character trait is that he's a real kick-in-the-door-and-charge type. I feel like it would be against his character to hang back, and I don't want to ask that...but I don't like how it ends up with him starting encounters and basically making the strategists helpless.

Snake-Aes
2010-10-03, 05:18 PM
I don't think you will find a compromise that makes you not go and tell him and, at the same time, keep him from doing his stuff too much. Just go and tell, Bring the other arbiter types of your group together to ask.

WarKitty
2010-10-03, 05:24 PM
Ok clarification: I'm quite willing to talk to them. I would however like some suggestions on how to approach it, and specifically how to keep playing a loud, kick-in-the-door character without upstaging other characters.

Snake-Aes
2010-10-03, 05:28 PM
Without dropping the characterization? some in-character conflict would be a good way to explain. Getting the odd elbow to the ribs could work (and the experience of doing that is also play-worthy). Another alternative is to make such punishment come from the consequence of acting rashly and having him mature from there.

On how to talk to the guys... I don't know if I can say something less than direct: "I/We feel that you are overshadowing the rest of the group with your character's attitude." A talk from there should work itself out. (The tone and the general "aura" while the talk is pulled is a huge factor in how they'll react, second only to their own personalities.)

Hackulator
2010-10-03, 05:31 PM
It sounds to me like you are dealing with an abusive player here. If their character refuse to listen to the other characters or let them have a say what is going on, that's not good roleplaying, its just being a pain. Tell them this, and explain that a character for whom proper roleplaying makes the game not fun for other players needs to be changed. If they refuse to moderate their behavior, speak to the other players and use the following plan:

Strategists say "we are going to work on a plan, give us a minute." Kick in the door guys says "I don't care about what you want" and kicks in the door. Strategy guys sit back and watch him die as he attacks an encounter tuned for the entire party.

Jornophelanthas
2010-10-03, 05:36 PM
It sounds to me like you are dealing with an abusive player here. If their character refuse to listen to the other characters or let them have a say what is going on, that's not good roleplaying, its just being a pain. Tell them this, and explain that a character for whom proper roleplaying makes the game not fun for other players needs to be changed. If they refuse to moderate their behavior, speak to the other players and use the following plan:

Strategists say "we are going to work on a plan, give us a minute." Kick in the door guys says "I don't care about what you want" and kicks in the door. Strategy guys sit back and watch him die as he attacks an encounter tuned for the entire party.

From the OP's post, I don't think this is the case. Rather, it sounds like a few players who are so enthusiastic about roleplaying that they don't notice that they are overshadowing everybody else.

All that's needed is someone else saying politely that it's another character's turn now. If they play nice, then they'll oblige, whether their characters are extravert "in your face" types or not.

If they refuse and are rude about it, then either they're abusive players as described above, or the person asking them to sit back on this one wasn't being polite.

EDIT:
A suggestion on how to bring up the subject would be something like: "Hold on, I think this situation is better suited for [Player X], so maybe it would be fair to let him/her have his/her turn to shine." As an out-of-character statement.
Note that I don't roleplay in the English language, so I could get the level of subtlety wrong here.

valadil
2010-10-03, 11:05 PM
Oy. I used to be friends with a guy who played that way. I came to the conclusion that I can't game with him anymore. It just wasn't worth it.

The problem wasn't just the dominant RP though. His personality made it hard to get around that problem. If I asked him to share the spotlight, he'd do all the talking for the encounter and then ask me if I wanted to add anything else he forgot. If I engaged his character one on one, I'd get completely ignored or talked over. If this is the sort of behavior you deal with, I advise not playing with them.

On the other hand, a more reasonable person should try and let other people in the spotlight. The best roleplayers I've ever seen have been the ones who will become the center of attention, and then drag other players (kicking and screaming if necessary) into the same scene.

742
2010-10-03, 11:43 PM
in the future make anyone who wants to play a leeroy get approval from the other players?

then i guess exploding doors and encounters that are easy to run from but simply can not be conquered with a flat charge? even better if theyre static (like a room full of golems or something) so the character would have to learn a lesson, and the player would have a good IC excuse to tone it down a bit in whichever direction they wanted. along with a brief chat about spotlight hogging of course.

so the character can still *want* to kick in the door, but the rogue can still say "shhhh! if you keep talking the dragon might wake up! that would be bad!"

Another_Poet
2010-10-03, 11:52 PM
Politely voice your concerns and then ask them to read the "Pass the Ball" (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/38/play-constructively-pass-the-ball/) article.

What's even better than having strong roleplayers shut up for a while? Having strong roleplayers actively throwing you roleplay openings, bringing you into their reindeer games.

Savannah
2010-10-04, 01:40 AM
In terms of advice for how to talk to them, I'd probably say just about what you said in the OP. Throw in some compliments and get them to figure out the solution for you :smallwink::

"Hey, guys, I know you're really great at roleplaying, and I really like playing with you, so I've been agonizing over how to bring this up with you. I don't want to discourage you from roleplaying or ask you to play a character you don't like, but unfortunately because you're playing naturally loud kick-in-the-door characters I've been feeling a little upstaged. [insert examples] Like I said, I really like your roleplaying, so I was wondering if you have any ideas for how to include my character a bit more, as s/he's not as outgoing as your characters and I'm feeling like I'm not contributing as much because of it."

the humanity
2010-10-04, 02:10 AM
Ok clarification: I'm quite willing to talk to them. I would however like some suggestions on how to approach it, and specifically how to keep playing a loud, kick-in-the-door character without upstaging other characters.

________ saw you doing ___________, which is embarrassing/secret. ___________ blackmails you every time you get on his nerves with a signal.

ask the player and DM if something like that would be ok.

WarKitty
2010-10-04, 10:13 AM
Ok, will talk to the group. I'm mostly annoyed because:

(A) I specified at the beginning that my druid was not going to be a blaster (PF game so wildshape isn't that great with my sucky physical stats). My last character was a blaster and I'm bored with it.

(B) I have control spells but none of the party particularly seems to want to work with them. Our melee wants to charge straight ahead and not work with stuff like entangle and fog cloud.

(C) We just got a new buffer/healer cleric introduced, which is what I had been doing (and was enjoying very much). She's much better at the job than I am.

So I really have no idea what to do with my character anymore.

Talon Sky
2010-10-04, 10:53 AM
1) Take levels in wizard or reroll a wizard.
2) Threaten to write Explosive Runes on their character's underwear anytime they cut you out of the roleplaying.
3) ????
4) PROFIT!

WarKitty
2010-10-04, 11:02 AM
1) Take levels in wizard or reroll a wizard.
2) Threaten to write Explosive Runes on their character's underwear anytime they cut you out of the roleplaying.
3) ????
4) PROFIT!

Oh come now, if I wanted to mess them up I have no need to reroll. I'm still a Tier 1 full caster, plus I know every druid spell in the universe by virtue of being a divine caster. Hit them with Poison+Plague Carrier while they're asleep. Then since it's PF, summon a few stirges to finish draining their constitution.

Psyx
2010-10-04, 11:20 AM
Particularly since we just brought in two new characters (both replacements for ones that died or left) that are better at their roles than the party member that is currently filling them.


Around our table, it's considered to be very bad etiquette to create a character that 'steals' an existing character's niche. Especially if it's better. But that may just be us.

Should existing characters step aside and let the 'niche-takers' take over? I'd personally say 'no'. It doesn't matter that you are 'better' though numbers: Those players would ALSO feel overshadowed if they stepped aside and you took over. And they were there first.

If you don't want to feel overshadowed, it's best to think of something that isn't already being done, and to do that. This is always the best way to create characters, in my mind.

Everyone likes to have a role at the table that is unique, and trampling on toes due to 'territorial' disputes never sits well with the player.



Additionally: Sometimes you take your turn at the helm, other times you take a turn sitting at the back.

I'm a very 'alpha male' and cerebral person. People look to me to lead and do the talking in many situations, and to make the final choice as to what plan we elect to follow. I do enjoy it, but sometimes I have to deliberately play a more reserved character for the duration of the game and let someone else take a 'turn'. There's another guy I roleplay with who is similar, and we have to almost take it in turns, as if we both play vocal, pushy characters there is always a huge personality clash and we both end up having no fun.

If somebody dominates EVERY game that they play in, then it's an issue. It needs to even out.

I'd be tempted to just play a more reserved character, and then make sure that I'm more vocal next game, and let the others know OOC why I'm doing it that way. Most players are reasonable about it. Some do hog the limelight a bit too much, but if you explain that it's everyone's game, not just theirs, they are generally fine with it.

Another good approach would be to talk to them and tell them that they're really helping you 'get into' roleplaying more, but you'd like to be able to take the opportunity to do so more. Pose it as a positive thing.



(B) I have control spells but none of the party particularly seems to want to work with them. Our melee wants to charge straight ahead and not work with stuff like entangle and fog cloud.

(C) We just got a new buffer/healer cleric introduced, which is what I had been doing (and was enjoying very much). She's much better at the job than I am.

B) No, because people often don't want to wait around working 'for' someone constantly. I don't like being nagged about where to stand, either because it makes me feel like a summoned monster. I'd recommend improved initiative to get your control spells in first.

C) She's treading on your toes. Bad etiquette.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-04, 01:03 PM
Yeah...I just hate saying it. The one guy's main character trait is that he's a real kick-in-the-door-and-charge type. I feel like it would be against his character to hang back, and I don't want to ask that...but I don't like how it ends up with him starting encounters and basically making the strategists helpless.

Set up situations where just kicking in the door is a really, really bad idea. And, if they blindly charge in despite it clearly being dangerous, well...it's gonna hurt.

This is a conflict that can be very IC, so I do like resolving them IC whenever possible. If you've got strategists who want some spotlight time, give them encounters where some preplanning is not only helpful, but clearly necessary. Heists are one such type.

WarKitty
2010-10-04, 02:25 PM
So I sent a message on our group FB thread:



In all seriousness:

How are we going to work out spellcasting so everyone is doing something? I explicitly do not want Fionntan to be a blaster character. That's what Kellen was and I'm bored with it. She's not going to be the healer/buffer anymore because we have Tammy now. And our control spells aren't working the way we have things going now.

We're doing great as far as roleplaying but I feel like we could do a bit more work to make sure everyone gets a fair chance at contributing, and so we're working together and not getting in each other's way.

Our DM's reply:

I disagree that Fionntan has lost her role. She has always been a support caster- this has not changed. Her buffs/healing may not be as strong as Tammy's (our cleric), but it is about versatility. Fionntan arguably has better debuff spells (which are stronger now that the party has one less melee character, Irateus), more offensive spells (even if you are not a blaster, druids still have other offensive capabilities... like summons), and more melee capabilities with Wild Shape and a pet wolf...

Fionntan is contributing to the team, I do not see how that changed with the addition of a Cleric.

Was I just not clear or did he miss the point? I wasn't talking about just me, I've heard complaints from 2 other players. And I specifically said my control spells aren't working the way our party is now.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-04, 02:34 PM
Respond, saying that a jack of all trades and a dedicated buffer are not the same roles at all.

Make sure to point out that it isn't about being able to contribute, it's about your role being displaced. He seems to have missed that.

Morph Bark
2010-10-04, 02:35 PM
Was I just not clear or did he miss the point? I wasn't talking about just me, I've heard complaints from 2 other players. And I specifically said my control spells aren't working the way our party is now.

You dedicated more space to your other point surrounding your character and put it up first. If you want a point addressed, you should focus on that first and foremost and show that you're serious about it.


...or did I miss your point too? :smallconfused:

Moogleking
2010-10-04, 03:56 PM
How about a personal side quest/ heavily related main quest? Make the characters brother into a villain, return to their home village to find it destroyed. Give them some easy RPing oppurtunities.

WarKitty
2010-10-04, 05:20 PM
How about a personal side quest/ heavily related main quest? Make the characters brother into a villain, return to their home village to find it destroyed. Give them some easy RPing oppurtunities.

Would work if I was the DM. :smalltongue: Personally, it's not that I'm not roleplaying, it's that one of the other characters is already running ahead to attack or talk (one of the problem characters is a master diplomancer) while my character is trying to gather information and formulate a plan.

Another_Poet
2010-10-05, 01:25 AM
(A) I specified at the beginning that my druid was not going to be a blaster (PF game so wildshape isn't that great with my sucky physical stats). My last character was a blaster and I'm bored with it.

Stick to your guns. (A) is not a problem. Excel at what you do and refuse the role you don't want. They'll learn.


(B) I have control spells but none of the party particularly seems to want to work with them. Our melee wants to charge straight ahead and not work with stuff like entangle and fog cloud.

In general, I don't advocate IC solutions for OOC problems. In fact, in genral the whole of GitP doesn't advocate IC solutions to OOC problems. However... I think this is an IC problem!

So here is what I would do. Next time you get into an encounter, announce to your comrades (for example), "I'm going to entangle them!" Just bellow it out even if it's not your turn.

When it is your turn, cast that Entangle spell in the best place to catch the most enemies... even if you entangle allies. It's not like a Fireball or Lightning Bolt; they won't die. While they mire around, summon up a flying creature to finish off the entangled enemies. Or Call Lightning. Whatever.

I just wouldn't give quarter to bad tactics. They're walking around with a veritable god of war (druid) and they want to ignore what that god says and rush headlong into danger. Make them respect what you do. Similar with Obscuring Mist and other control spells. Just announce what you're doing ahead of time and then bring it online without regard to their actions. If they choose to charge into a declared dead zone... wow, well, that's why you have all the Wis I guess.

This'll have one of two effects. Either it'll cause them to object OOC in which case it opens up the dialogue on why you feel underappreciated, or they'll just learn not to mess with the druid's control zone. Either one is a positive development.

Last, consider owning just a section of the battlefield. They can't charge in every direction. If they go right, bind up the orcs on the left. In many battles there is room for multiple fronts. Choose one and hose it. They'll love you. Or, at a minimum, they'll not notice that the only reason they won was because of you. But they won't interfere.


(C) We just got a new buffer/healer cleric introduced, which is what I had been doing (and was enjoying very much). She's much better at the job than I am.

Good. This isn't your job anyway. If your cleric is acting as buffer, it frees you up to act as controller. Rock on.



How are we going to work out spellcasting so everyone is doing something? I explicitly do not want Fionntan to be a blaster character. That's what Kellen was and I'm bored with it. She's not going to be the healer/buffer anymore because we have Tammy now. And our control spells aren't working the way we have things going now.

We're doing great as far as roleplaying but I feel like we could do a bit more work to make sure everyone gets a fair chance at contributing, and so we're working together and not getting in each other's way.

I'm confused. The whole point of this thread was that you're unhappy with fellow players' roleplaying because it overshadows you and they hog the spotlight. But in your official "I have a concern" post to your whole group, you say "we're doing great as far as roleplaying." Why?

Maybe upon reflection you've decided the problem isn't really the roleplaying and that it's combat tactics. But it sounds like you are simply trying to compliment them on something to soften the blow of criticism. Don't. Or at least, don't compliment something you hate.

If you don't like the roleplay, then say so.


Originally Posted by the DM
I disagree that Fionntan has lost her role. She has always been a support caster- this has not changed. Her buffs/healing may not be as strong as Tammy's (our cleric), but it is about versatility. Fionntan arguably has better debuff spells (which are stronger now that the party has one less melee character, Irateus), more offensive spells (even if you are not a blaster, druids still have other offensive capabilities... like summons), and more melee capabilities with Wild Shape and a pet wolf...

Fionntan is contributing to the team, I do not see how that changed with the addition of a Cleric.

It feels like a bad sign to me that the DM is weighing in so definitively on player-versus-player disputes. This isn't the DM's job. Players/Characters decide how to handle disagreement among the party. The fact that the DM is ruling (or even just opining) on your character's role bothers me. It isn't that the DM has no right to do it; he/she has every right. It's just that it signals that either the DM is getting defensive that "everything is just fine, right guys!" or that the DM feels the need to adjudicate player-vs-player disputes which means they have gone beyond friendly IC diagreements and are affecting everyone's fun.

I would be as clear and open as possible about why you are not enjoying it and ask them to pass the ball to your controller-focused character.

ap

Psyx
2010-10-05, 05:51 AM
Was I just not clear or did he miss the point? I wasn't talking about just me, I've heard complaints from 2 other players. And I specifically said my control spells aren't working the way our party is now.


You communicated your point amazingly badly. Your entire focus was on the buffing stuff and roles, rather than roleplaying issues.

WarKitty
2010-10-05, 07:06 AM
You communicated your point amazingly badly. Your entire focus was on the buffing stuff and roles, rather than roleplaying issues.

Are those exclusive? It's sort of both going on at once and I feel like they're essentially the same problem. I.e. one or two players are stealing the spotlight, whether in terms of rp or party role.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-05, 07:27 AM
I feel they're related, certainly.

I admit I misread a bit at the beginning of this thread, and approached it as a DM asking for help, rather than a player, but I don't feel your communication was especially unclear. Just try to rephrase things when you next talk to him, and yeah...you might have to get blunt and remove the complements intended to soften the problem, if he's just not getting it.

The problem isn't "can contribute to party"....a druid can always contribute to the party. The problem is having your role in the team displaced.

Psyx
2010-10-05, 08:31 AM
Are those exclusive? It's sort of both going on at once and I feel like they're essentially the same problem. I.e. one or two players are stealing the spotlight, whether in terms of rp or party role.

You communication sounded as though you were purely upset about party roles to me. A very different message to the one portrayed here.

Discuss it in person with them, rather than by written medium. Focus on what the one key point is. If you don't and your key point is uncomfortable, then it will be ignored, and the other points addressed by way of displacement activity.

Tukka
2010-10-05, 09:38 AM
I think Another Poet's advice should be taken into consideration.

If you are going to raise it as an OOC issue, try and make sure that the other two players who have voiced complaints are on the same page as you, and make sure they're willing to speak up the next time you bring up the issue. If it looks like you're the only one who is unhappy with the party roles and RP situation, the players who are happy with the status quo may believe (with some justification) that you're the one who needs to adjust to the methods and style of the rest of the group.

Kylarra
2010-10-05, 10:07 AM
In terms of battlefield control, I think that's best handled IC, with the potential of taking it OOC, because it is an IC thing for your character. The roleplaying part should definitely be handled OOC since it is entirely a meta-construct, but "hey my allies keep charging straight into my control spells, geez guys stop doing that" is entirely valid for a character to bring up.

Diarmuid
2010-10-05, 11:42 AM
Why doesnt your druid ask the chargey guy IC, "Hey, if you werent always jumping ahead of us, we could probably get through our battles with a lot less scrapes that have to be healed later on."

Battle Tactics are an IC thing. I've played characters whose grasp on battle tactics were much less than my own as an RP choice. If this guy is a strong RP'er as you painted him out to be, maybe you'll gain some insight into what makes his char tick rather than just being upset that it doesnt mesh well with how you intended your character to be. Then you're both roleplaying your characters and can try to figure out some way to work through it rather than trying to come to some arrangement/solution that then has to be shoe-horned into the game.

Same could be said with the cleric, "Hey <insert Tammy's char's name here>, before you came along, I was preparing a lot of spells to enhance the fighters. What spells have you been preparing? With one less person to spell up now, it might make sense for us to coordinate our daily spells so we're complimenting each other."

I also dont think it's unreasonable to force someone else to make a character choice because you already had picked something similar...then you're just being as infringing as they are.

These are all obstacles that can be very fun/interesting to find ways around. I've always found that having a non-archetypical party makes for the most interesting games as you dont simply all fall into your pre-ordained roles and plod along, but you actually have to think and plan and work together.

As others have stated, if there is an issue with the RP...then RP it. Dont OOC it. And I agree that the way you originally presented your issue was vastly different than what you posted to your group.

WarKitty
2010-10-05, 12:15 PM
@Diarmuid: Tammy is the cleric's name, not the players. Just a detail.

So interesting development today. I talked to the one player that had been the issue most of the time. He pointed out a few things I hadn't thought of. Specifically that in the latest incident he had actually intended to go along with the original party plan. He had made a diplomacy roll to lure the mooks outside for an ambush. I had thought he intended to end up in the room working with them by himself; apparently he hadn't planned it that way and it just sort of ended up where he felt he couldn't go another direction without getting stabbed.

quiet1mi
2010-10-05, 02:23 PM
I would typically ask each person what they are doing...

DM: Fred, What are you doing?
Fred: Um... I walk up the stairs and see what is there?
DM: Frank, What are you doing?
Frank: I am going to find out what is over there?
DM: Talc Much, What are you doing?
Talc Much: First I am going to do blank and then blank followed by blank....
DM: (Cutting off Talc) Alright.

DM: Fred, you see blank up the stairs, Frank finds this over there, and Talc does blank and begins to do blank.

It may be blunt but when all you have is a hammer...

WarKitty
2010-10-05, 02:49 PM
I would typically ask each person what they are doing...

DM: Fred, What are you doing?
Fred: Um... I walk up the stairs and see what is there?
DM: Frank, What are you doing?
Frank: I am going to find out what is over there?
DM: Talc Much, What are you doing?
Talc Much: First I am going to do blank and then blank followed by blank....
DM: (Cutting off Talc) Alright.

DM: Fred, you see blank up the stairs, Frank finds this over there, and Talc does blank and begins to do blank.

It may be blunt but when all you have is a hammer...

Might be interesting to bring that up with the DM. Here's the problem scene as the diplomancer (Louis) remembers it:

We've all lined up outside the door for an ambush, who is in there to draw them out.

DM: The orcs come down the stairs looking to see what was going on.
Louis: *rolls diplomacy* "Sorry guys I guess I got lost. Can you help me find my wallet?"
DM: *looks at roll* The orcs decide they really like you. You find yourself in the center of a big orc group hug. "Hey how about coming up to play cards with us?" They start to head up the stairs.

The player said at this point he felt like he had to go along with the card game and couldn't seem to get out. Personally that seems a little odd the way our DM handles diplomacy, although I suppose it's meant to avoid the diplomancer getting his way all the time.

LibraryOgre
2010-10-05, 03:36 PM
I don't think any of us want to say "don't roleplay so much, or don't roleplay a determined character." At the same time...well it feels like we're sort of side characters now. I know I and one other girl feel upstaged; neither of us have particularly outspoken characters and neither of us are playing the type to just charge right in.

Truthfully, a lot of this has to be handled by saying "Guys, you're doing great, but could you let others shine, too?" There's a good chance they won't even realize they're doing this.

If it gets worse, or they indicate a disinterests in playing for everyone's fun... well, they may have to get sidelined a bit, so others can play.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-05, 03:41 PM
Why doesnt your druid ask the chargey guy IC, "Hey, if you werent always jumping ahead of us, we could probably get through our battles with a lot less scrapes that have to be healed later on."

I've seen this used before. It works sometimes. If not, it tend to progress to threats, or ominous warnings of what'll happen when he charges into something truly horrible. If ignoring of strategy persists, Bad Things(tm) happen to that character. My last rogue that was reckless was sold into slavery by his own party, complete with an awesome bluff check to convince him to go on a "secret mission". Alternative endings have included "accidentally" CCing the character with the monsters, then retreating.

Sometimes, in character conflict really can solve IC differences.

WarKitty
2010-10-05, 04:16 PM
I've seen this used before. It works sometimes. If not, it tend to progress to threats, or ominous warnings of what'll happen when he charges into something truly horrible. If ignoring of strategy persists, Bad Things(tm) happen to that character. My last rogue that was reckless was sold into slavery by his own party, complete with an awesome bluff check to convince him to go on a "secret mission". Alternative endings have included "accidentally" CCing the character with the monsters, then retreating.

Sometimes, in character conflict really can solve IC differences.

Sorry, but with my group that's a sure-fire recipe for PvP.

Tukka
2010-10-05, 04:36 PM
The player said at this point he felt like he had to go along with the card game and couldn't seem to get out. Personally that seems a little odd the way our DM handles diplomacy, although I suppose it's meant to avoid the diplomancer getting his way all the time.
This would only address a part of your problem, but you may want to approach the diplomacer's player and ask him what he'd think about proposing a house rule for handling the diplomacy skill in a more consistent, believable manner (such as Rich Burlew's system (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html) or Justin Alexander's (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/diplomacy.html)).

The character will still have a chance to shine in his chosen role, but he is less likely to steamroll social situations, or transform them in zany, unpredictable ways.

Kantolin
2010-10-05, 08:41 PM
A hesitation to purely using the 'don't charge ahead' as an IC debate... one of the players in my groups really really doesn't like strategic planning and the like.

We ran into a chessboard-esque event in our game, and the entire rest of the table was overjoyed about the way it was panning out and did some extensive planning... but he was bored silly and got increasingly irritated at what he saw as 'being ignored' (He asked 'hey let's just go in there and stab them').

Now, simultaneously, you're there to have fun too. ^_^ So trying to give him the option of pseudo-having his way without messing with your goals can sometimes work out. Calling out 'I'll solid fog/entangle those guys, can you charge over and mess up the cleric?', or possibly, 'Hold on a second - lemme trap them with entangle, then you can charge in and butcher them'.

Something like that. It's the same thingish, but it at least makes it seem like more of a cooperative agreement. This also assumes that these guys are like the player in my games, and won't necessarily just change when you explain that they're wrecking your fun.

I mean, in my group, entangling the party intentionally is a good way to have players angry at you, especially if the feeling is that it's 'for no reason'.

pife
2010-10-06, 09:29 AM
it.

(B) I have control spells but none of the party particularly seems to want to work with them. Our melee wants to charge straight ahead and not work with stuff like entangle and fog cloud.



Then use them on your Melee.. Entangle his butt outside the door before he kicks it.

Tell him that you disapprove of negative reinforcement when it comes to training animals, but since he's wearing clothes, he doesn't qualify for that exemption. And if his behavior doesn't improve, you're going to fit him with a special "shock collar".. Tell him it's either that, or he kicks the next door in naked.

WarKitty
2010-10-06, 09:42 AM
Then use them on your Melee.. Entangle his butt outside the door before he kicks it.

Tell him that you disapprove of negative reinforcement when it comes to training animals, but since he's wearing clothes, he doesn't qualify for that exemption. And if his behavior doesn't improve, you're going to fit him with a special "shock collar".. Tell him it's either that, or he kicks the next door in naked.

He'd just attack me.

Diarmuid
2010-10-06, 09:59 AM
So just out of curiosity, your diplimancer was able to get a diplomacy result at least 45 points more than the orcs got?

Only asking as that's what would be required to bring Hostile to Friendly without spending 10 consecutive rounds, and even then that would have taken a full round action in which I'm surprised that the what-i-assume-would-be aggressive orcs wouldnt have taken any actions upon finding an intruder in their lair/hideout.

I know this is certainly possible, but you didnt mention what level you guys are.

Talyn
2010-10-06, 09:59 AM
For the love of Pelor, don't listen to the people advocating player-vs.-player "solutions." Seriously, it won't fix the problem and will cause a tremendous amount of new ones.

Now, speaking as a player who has a tendency to be the most vocal, most in-character guy, it can get very, VERY frustrating to be asked to "not dominate the RP" by either and then, when you try to back off a little to let other people shine, everyone just sort of sits there staring at each other. This happens a lot when people around the table who are a little more shy ask the more outgoing players to back off, but then don't step up when they do.

Honestly, the best way to deal with your concern about being overshadowed is just to speak up in character! Get into an in-character shouting match with the other guy - trust me, he'll love it (since it lets him really get into his character), the DM will love it (because you are making your own fun without actively disrupting his game), and you'll get your chance in the spotlight.

WarKitty
2010-10-06, 10:37 AM
For the love of Pelor, don't listen to the people advocating player-vs.-player "solutions." Seriously, it won't fix the problem and will cause a tremendous amount of new ones.

Now, speaking as a player who has a tendency to be the most vocal, most in-character guy, it can get very, VERY frustrating to be asked to "not dominate the RP" by either and then, when you try to back off a little to let other people shine, everyone just sort of sits there staring at each other. This happens a lot when people around the table who are a little more shy ask the more outgoing players to back off, but then don't step up when they do.

Honestly, the best way to deal with your concern about being overshadowed is just to speak up in character! Get into an in-character shouting match with the other guy - trust me, he'll love it (since it lets him really get into his character), the DM will love it (because you are making your own fun without actively disrupting his game), and you'll get your chance in the spotlight.

I tend to play fairly quiet characters. Not quiet as in don't talk, but quiet as in would never ever dream of shouting or raising their voices. I'm playing a very laid-back, voice of reason type character. Getting into a shouting match would be breaking character in a major way. I'm the character that's saying "let's sit back and figure out how to best approach this" while someone else is saying "let's break down the door and see what happens."

I have tried to address the concept in character and basically been told "don't interfere or I'll hit you with my axe."

Diarmuid
2010-10-06, 11:02 AM
So dont interfere....sit and watch him fight things all by himself and then when he's done, tell him you're out of spells and cant heal him.

There are plenty of ways to communicate with people that dont invovle swinging swords/axes at them.

Kylarra
2010-10-06, 11:09 AM
I have tried to address the concept in character and basically been told "don't interfere or I'll hit you with my axe."
Well then, I guess your best option is to just not interfere. Save your battlefield control for protecting your butt and potentially the butts of those not this person.

WarKitty
2010-10-06, 11:20 AM
So dont interfere....sit and watch him fight things all by himself and then when he's done, tell him you're out of spells and cant heal him.

There are plenty of ways to communicate with people that dont invovle swinging swords/axes at them.

That's basically what I'm already doing, except I'm not needed for healing anymore. So...I'm sitting on my butt a lot. Fun.

Edit at Talyn: I don't think I have *ever* been described as shy. I do however have a language processing disorder that makes it take a while to get sentences out.

pife
2010-10-06, 12:07 PM
That's basically what I'm already doing, except I'm not needed for healing anymore. So...I'm sitting on my butt a lot. Fun.

Edit at Talyn: I don't think I have *ever* been described as shy. I do however have a language processing disorder that makes it take a while to get sentences out.

Then I would make sure that the next time a door is about to be kicked, you and the cleric check your sundials and realize that it's time for your union mandated lunch break, and you two go brew tea on the Brew-a-magic 6000 you have in your backpack.

I LOVE intra-party antics (as long as they are in character and not disruptive to the game as a whole).. Had a halfling character once that shaved the paladin's horse and painted him blue after an in character argument.. The paladin's player was apoplectic.. he didn't know what to say. It wasn't against the law, didn't hurt the horse, was non-violent.. He wanted to punish me, but he couldn't..

And then there was the time my Brute Kit Barbarian (for those of you that don't go back to 2nd Edition, Brutes had a max INT of 6, and were basically cavemen) was the only member of the party who was able to climb up a slick vertical shaft that was our only way out of a dungeon.. The party had been worried about starving to death, and the paladin (different paladin) was concerned about his horse starving up top. So, one night while the Brute was on watch, he climbed up out of the hole, killed the warhorse, CHEWED and ripped the neck away from the body, (he only had a club) and climbed back down with it (using the ropes in the saddlebags to tie it to me) to make everyone a surprise breakfast..

The moral of the story... Don't own a horse if you adventure with me..

It was a surprise alright...

But back to the issue at hand.. I dig a warrior who is gung ho and in your face.. But, the DM could perhaps aid in teaching him to respect other methods.. If the warrior is a one trick pony (kick door+smash monster=WIN), the DM could have the bad guys on a learning curve.. The first couple of times it works.. But after that, they start learning.. Reinforcing doors, Pit traps, invisible poisoned needles set into the door, kicking the door in and finding 30 rust monsters happy to pour out, Glyphs of Warding on the back side of the door (so they aren't seen from your side), etc.. Once the warrior has to wake up to smelling salts 5 or 6 times, (administered by the cleric and druid, of course) he might be willing to temper his enthusiasm..

WarKitty
2010-10-06, 12:09 PM
I forgot to mention the other problem player is the cleric...

jiriku
2010-10-06, 12:09 PM
In combat, Id suggest you start looking at options that make the chargers immune to your CC. Freedom of movement is excellent for this, once you get to level 7.

In social situations, you've gotten some good advice re: asking the strong roleplayers for ideas on how you can get into the action. This empower sthem to find solutions, rather than placing them on the defensive by defining them as the problem. Plus, everyone loves to be asked for advice.

I'd agree that you want to move this out of email. It's a poor medium for communicating emotionally laden subjects. Also, moving things into one-on-one interactions gets your DM out of the center of the issue, and this is not an issue that will be helped by having the DM in the middle of it.