Skilled Idiots

[Serpentine]

Sew, I have a rather dumb character who is meant to be pretty good at a bunch of stuff but because of low Int doesn't have the skill points, and I want to know if there's any ways to boost skills without increasing Intelligence.

More backgroundy stuff: she's a half-orc Rogue with low (6) Int and high (I forget) Wisdom. She's meant to be severely lacking in booksmarts, but has a well-developed sense of self-preservation and is adapted to a life on the streets.
I want to keep her dumb, it's sort of her thing, but it would also be nice if she were good at the things it makes sense for her to be good at - specifically stuff like Jump, Climb and Balance (she's (almost literally - Shea like kittehs!) rather a catburglar), Open Lock, Sleight of Hand and to a lesser extent Sense Motive. She knows these things more as muscle memory, raw talent and intuition rather than learning and problem solving. Are there any ways to boost skills without needing decent Intelligence?

The DM in question is easygoing and flexible, but a little bit terrified of DMing and I think worried about being taken advantage of. So something in RAW would be best, rather than homebrew or houserules, and nothing too complicated or drastic.

[Felhammer]

Skill Focus and any of those +2 to Two Skills feats would help. Jack of All Trades nets you access to all the skills, though isn't terribly helpful for the maximizing the skills you have. Use Magic Device can help buff your stats and emulate things you could do with skills (like Knock and Invisibility).

[Kylarra]

Nymph's kiss is an [exalted] feat that will give you +1 skill point/lvl, not retroactive, and open minded will get you 5.

[cdrcjsn]

How many skills do you actually need to have her topped off?

Rogues get a hefty number of skill points, so if you're content to let a few of them stay at 5 ranks (to get the synergy bonuses), you're probably covered as long as she stays rogue.

[Morph Bark]

Wasn't there a way to get your skill points off Cha instead of Int? Admittably, for a half-orc, not the best choice, but still...

[DeltaEmil]

Give your character high intelligence for determining skill points, access to feats and higher levels of spells, but whenever you roll on a check with it, give yourself a penalty as you envision your character would have.

For example, your character has 14 intelligence for getting expertise, +2 skill points, can cast up to level 4 spells and whatever, but when you make a roll for search, knowledge, any kind of skill check with intelligence, or just the attribute check itself, you can roll for yourself as if your character had only a 6 in it.

[Morph Bark]

Give your character high intelligence for determining skill points, access to feats and higher levels of spells, but whenever you roll on a check with it, give yourself a penalty as you envision your character would have.

For example, your character has 14 intelligence for getting expertise, +2 skill points, can cast up to level 4 spells and whatever, but when you make a roll for search, knowledge, any kind of skill check with intelligence, or just the attribute check itself, you can roll for yourself as if your character had only a 6 in it.

:smallconfused: That's unnecessarily gimping yourself, really.

[DeltaEmil]

Serpentine wants to play a half-orc who's not too book-smart, yet has been able to live on the streets quite well.
Having the high intelligence for the skill-points, while playing it out as if it were a lot lower is easier than trying to find several obscure feats, class features and race-combinations to get the necessary skill-points, while still wanting to keep the low mental stats.
Gimping one-self is what is intended. You're always allowed to play a character worse than what is actually written on the sheet of paper.

[Project_Mayhem]

Give your character high intelligence for determining skill points, access to feats and higher levels of spells, but whenever you roll on a check with it, give yourself a penalty as you envision your character would have.

For example, your character has 14 intelligence for getting expertise, +2 skill points, can cast up to level 4 spells and whatever, but when you make a roll for search, knowledge, any kind of skill check with intelligence, or just the attribute check itself, you can roll for yourself as if your character had only a 6 in it.

I second this suggestion.

[Zen Master]

More backgroundy stuff: she's a half-orc Rogue with low (6) Int and high (I forget) Wisdom. She's meant to be severely lacking in booksmarts, but has a well-developed sense of self-preservation and is adapted to a life on the streets.


If I were the DM, I'd award the character bonus skill points based on some other relevant attribute - maybe wisdom. These skill points would be limited to certain skills like maybe gather information, hide or jump - but not available for Knowledge: Arcana, for instance.

[Wings of Peace]

Bardic Knack + Improvisation + Lunatic Insight will make you at least excellent at just about anything you might attempt to do.

[FelixG]

give the character a 16 int, then give yourself illiterate as a role playing flaw and TADA a character with good skill points but didn't get any of their int from books :P

even a street smart over book smart person i figure would have good int...having a low int doesn't just mean you are not book smart it just means your not smart in general.

My best recommendation would be the able learner feat that lets you spend only 1 skill point on cross classes.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Open Minded gives you 5 skill points for the cost of a feat.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I was just about to suggest Open Minded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded) myself.

In any case, is the only conceptual reason for the Int 6 this “lack of booksmarts” thing? Cause not being booksmart doesn’t automatically mean a low Int. After all, a 15-Int fighter isn’t going to come off as terribly educated if all his skill points are spent on Jump, Climb, Swim, Ride, and Intimidate. Really, the only thing that implies booksmart in this game are the Knowledge skills. Pretty much everything else can be written off as being self-taught, and therefore not an example of booksmarts.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Just ask if you can use WIS to determine skill points instead? Maybe ask if you could homebrew a feat for it?

[Reluctance]

You mention six skills you want, on a character with (8-2=6) skill points per level. Especially if you grab Open Minded or are okay with some of your skills being less than maxed, you should be able to do okay just based on a high number of class skill points per level.

If you're one of those people where everything you have has to be maxed, use one of the UA skill systems. Max Ranks, Limited Choices in particular has plenty of ways to get bunches of skills without necessarily taking anything away from Intelligence.

[Serpentine]

Nymph's kiss is an [exalted] feat that will give you +1 skill point/lvl, not retroactive, and open minded will get you 5.She's True Neutral so, alas, no Exalted. I was gonna ask where Open Minded was but it got linked to (thanks). I'll definitely consider that one - I'm not sure if I can spare the feats, but I'll probably just have to make do.
Wasn't there a way to get your skill points off Cha instead of Int? Admittably, for a half-orc, not the best choice, but still...Her Charisma is significantly better than her Intelligence so that would certainly be an improvement. Not great for flavour purposes, but could be a start. Are you sure you're not thinking of the one that changes your Will save to Charisma, though? Force of Personality?
If I were the DM, I'd award the character bonus skill points based on some other relevant attribute - maybe wisdom. These skill points would be limited to certain skills like maybe gather information, hide or jump - but not available for Knowledge: Arcana, for instance.
Just ask if you can use WIS to determine skill points instead? Maybe ask if you could homebrew a feat for it?I thought that might be the best way. It would work the best and make the most sense, but I'm not sure if I can sell it to my DM. Maybe in feat form...

give the character a 16 int, then give yourself illiterate as a role playing flaw and TADA a character with good skill points but didn't get any of their int from books :P

even a street smart over book smart person i figure would have good int...having a low int doesn't just mean you are not book smart it just means your not smart in general.

My best recommendation would be the able learner feat that lets you spend only 1 skill point on cross classes.
In any case, is the only conceptual reason for the Int 6 this “lack of booksmarts” thing? Cause not being booksmart doesn’t automatically mean a low Int. After all, a 15-Int fighter isn’t going to come off as terribly educated if all his skill points are spent on Jump, Climb, Swim, Ride, and Intimidate. Really, the only thing that implies booksmart in this game are the Knowledge skills. Pretty much everything else can be written off as being self-taught, and therefore not an example of booksmarts.No, it's not just "booksmarts". It's general significant lack of intellect. Total lack of education, general lack of adult influence, chronic malnutrition, racial disadvantage. She's a surviver, not a thinker.

You mention six skills you want, on a character with (8-2=6) skill points per level. Especially if you grab Open Minded or are okay with some of your skills being less than maxed, you should be able to do okay just based on a high number of class skill points per level.That was off the top of my head. I don't have my character sheet handy, but using the d20srd as a reminder, I would like to be at least decent in: Balance, maybe Bluff, Climb, maybe Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Handle Animal*, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (nature)*, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, maybe Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, and Tumble. 6 points per level is stretched pretty thin.

*Intend to go into Animal Lord asap. Might go into Ranger for a bit.

If you're one of those people where everything you have has to be maxed, use one of the UA skill systems. Max Ranks, Limited Choices in particular has plenty of ways to get bunches of skills without necessarily taking anything away from Intelligence.No, I am not. Seriously, any optimisers in this thread? Don't ask me about her. You'll probably cry. It would just be nice for her to be good at the things that she should be good at.

Thanks for the help so far, everyone :smallsmile:

[Morph Bark]

Her Charisma is significantly better than her Intelligence so that would certainly be an improvement. Not great for flavour purposes, but could be a start. Are you sure you're not thinking of the one that changes your Will save to Charisma, though? Force of Personality?

No, it's not just "booksmarts". It's general significant lack of intellect. Total lack of education, general lack of adult influence, chronic malnutrition, racial disadvantage. She's a surviver, not a thinker.

That was off the top of my head. I don't have my character sheet handy, but using the d20srd as a reminder, I would like to be at least decent in: Balance, maybe Bluff, Climb, maybe Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Handle Animal*, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (nature)*, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, maybe Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, and Tumble. 6 points per level is stretched pretty thin.

Well, I guess a good starting point (as always with these kinds of things) would be this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732). Looking over it, yeah, there is no listed source that adds Charisma to skill points. Must've been homebrew.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I was gonna ask where Open Minded was but it got linked to (thanks).
You’re welcome! :smallcool:


No, it's not just "booksmarts". It's general significant lack of intellect. Total lack of education, general lack of adult influence, chronic malnutrition, racial disadvantage. She's a surviver, not a thinker.
All right. Good to know.

Another option for this kind of character might be the Prodigy unique ability from DMG2. +2 LA for +2 to an ability score and +4 to skill checks based on that score. It’s was designed with NPCs in mind, though, so you might have your work cut out for you getting DM permission.

[Quietus]

That was off the top of my head. I don't have my character sheet handy, but using the d20srd as a reminder, I would like to be at least decent in: Balance, maybe Bluff, Climb, maybe Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Handle Animal*, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (nature)*, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, maybe Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, and Tumble. 6 points per level is stretched pretty thin.

That... is a very long list of skills. I'd suggest trying to cut down on it, to start with, either limiting/eliminating the "maybes". Sense Motive, for example, rather than being skilled up to protect against bluffs, you could straight up just *not trust anyone*. There'll be times that you'll be lied to, you won't pick up on it, but you can play as being reluctant anyway.. so long as you're also willing to have other situations wherein someone is full on telling you the truth, and you're STILL reluctant. Then it becomes a roleplay thing rather than pure numbers.

Beyond that, I'd say with a list that long, what you're looking for isn't just a way to get plenty of skills; You should look for something that gives a flat bonus to all skills. You've got pretty much most of the ones usable untrained on that list, after all. Alternatively, a way to get some situational bonuses, rerolls, or "+x to a skill check x/day" type things might work out better, representing more of a "pushing yourself to do what needs to be done" rather than true skill in ALL those skills. Unfortunately, I don't know of many sources of those types of things available at low level.

[mucat]

I would like to be at least decent in: Balance, maybe Bluff, Climb, maybe Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Handle Animal*, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (nature)*, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, maybe Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, and Tumble. 6 points per level is stretched pretty thin.

A lot of those sounds like they could be at less than max rank and still fit the character (i.e., she knows how to jimmy a simple lock because that's how she used to break into the cellar she would sleep in one winter, but she's not a world-class safecracker.) But even then, yeah, that's a lot of skills.

A couple of things you could try, if they don't depart too far from her character concept:

Could she be quarter-orc? Noticeably orcish-looking, with one half-orc parent, but human for game-mechanical purposes? Not only would that extra skill point help, but the first-level bonus feat could go to Open-Minded or something else that boosts skills.

Is it possible that 8 int (combined with an illiterate, half-feral personality) would be low enough to represent her stunted intellect? If the point is "even other orcs think she's dumb", then a 6 makes more sense, but if it's just "survivor, not a thinker", then the other players won't find it immersion-shattering to see an 8 on her character sheet.


And i know you wand to stick to the SRD as much as possible, but as you know, a very common "fix" to half-orcs and half-elves is to give them either the human bonus feat or the human skill bonus, but not both. If I were a homebrew-shy DM, I would be a lot more likely to consider tweaking a known subpar race (a change which only affects one player) than to approve a Skillpoints-Based-on-Wis feat (which might immediately have the cleric saying "I take that too!" and the bard saying "Then I can brew a feat to base them on Charisma, right?")

[Telonius]

Daredevil Athlete from Complete Scoundrel can give you bonuses to several of the skills listed.

Exemplar and Factotum are two other ways to get all the skills on your skill list. (Factotum might not work with the concept, and Exemplar has to wait until you get 13 ranks in a single skill).

[Serpentine]

Might be worth pointing out that I've already made and played the character... I think I can retcon some things (we did traits and flaws last game cuz the DM forgot), but a wholesale reworking is pushing it.
Also, yeah, those skills are variable. There's some I want to be better at than others.

So, feats and getting to use Wisdom for skill points instead of Intelligence are my best bets, then? =/

[Zaq]

Pity that you're a rogue, since the Bardic Knack ACF from PHB2 would be perfect here. Unfortunately, it's based on your bard level, so just a dip in bard wouldn't help much.

Also from the bard, the spell Improvisation is quite good at letting you make skill checks your ranks would indicate you really shouldn't... but it's very dependent on CL, so just a wand wouldn't help too much (and likely wouldn't fit the character too well).

I don't think there's a way to get it without houseruling, but you might ask your GM about what you can trade for some equivalent Knack.